New Life Games LLC
**Video Poker, Keno, Slots, 21** Gaming machines => CEI and Cal Omega Video Poker Games => Topic started by: tomco on November 17, 2015, 07:00:34 PM
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:Scratch-Head: My machine works great except for the hold buttons 3,4 and 5 don't light. Hold buttons 1 and 2 work fine. The function of all the buttons work, except for the three not lighting. I've swapped the bulbs between the working and non-working, and all bulbs are good.
The machine has a 904 board 8200080 rev. "E" s/n L810 and the software is 24.01-.05. Not sure where the previous owner got that information from.
As I said the machine works fine, but I would like to have everything operating if possible. So any help anyone could offer would be greatly appreciated.
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If the bulbs and sockets are good, first place I would look is at the Molex plug on the door hinge side. Thats where all the wires from the front door go thru. I have more connection problems that I could have figured out earlier, if I just checked the Molex plugs first.
Dave F
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Thanks for the tip. I've been busy all day, but will start checking all molex connections tomorrow. Funny thing I forgot to mention in original post when I pulled the harness down and the lights from the sockets even though they did not light and flash I could see the element within the bulbs glow orange as if receiving low voltage. Whats up with that??????
Thanks
Tom
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I'm not a CEI/Cal Omega expert BUT,
Some machines have what is called a KAR board. It plugs into the backplane. It is a simple board with several resistors. The purpose of the KAR board is to always keep a small amount of electricity flowing thru the button lamps, so they will last much longer. When a lamp is suddenly turned on from being truly off the filament expands rapidly from the surge or inrush of current and fatigues it. After a while the bulb filament burns out. The KAR board helps with this problem. KAR stands for Keep Alive Resistor board. Machines with a KAR board will have the button lamps slightly on when in the OFF mode. When the lamp is switched on it works normally. This likely explains what you saw.
If you stand near a table lamp with a clear glass light bulb that is off, in a brightly lit room and turn on the lamp while your face is near the bulb you can watch the bulb filament bend or twitch when it first comes on. Not as exciting as watching Jurrasic World but it is neat. That stuff about metal expanding when it's temp rises is true. That's why some lamp filaments are wound in a spiral, to lessen this fatiguing due to expansion. The lamps used in high reliability circuits have filaments like that.
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Thank you for the information on the KAR board. I'm learning as I continue to troubleshoot this issues with my machine.
Tom
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Thank you for the information on the KAR board. I'm learning as I continue to troubleshoot this issues with my machine.
Tom
So does your machine actually have the KAR board? I assume it does but many do not. If so it is something to check (along with the wiring and connectors) to figure out your button lamp problem. The KAR board can be easily unplugged from the backplane and looked at carefully to make sure it doesn't have any problem.
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Heck .... I am learning too ... keep it up ... but not too long. I want to see your machine fixed.
Dave F
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Yes it has a KAR board, and it appears it has some issues. One resistor looks cracked and the 75ohm square resister next to it has a loose solder joint. Time for a trip to the electronic's store. See attached pix.
Thanks again for everyone's help
Tom
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Yep, looks like time & heat have taken a toll. Since there is electricity flowing thru these resistors for a lot of the time they do get warm and cause discoloration to the circuit board. If possible you can reduce this by raising the resistors up off the board so that there is an air gap under them, especially the white rectangular resistors since they are higher wattage (heat). Even a small gap is better than having the resistor touching the board. Don't want to break the resistor doing this, so be gentle. The discoloration to the board is not a big problem for the board itself, but it blocks part of the heat trying to get off the resistor, making the resistor run hotter overall, plus it makes one side of the resistor hotter than the other. This can cause stress fractures to occur.
This KAR board may not be what's causing your button lamp problem but it is something needing repair. If you have a meter I'd measure each resistor and make sure they are ok. Some of them have been heated enough to make it hard to see the color bands. Let us know how it goes and we'll go from there.
Something to be aware of in case it is needed. Notice that all of the resistors on the side of the board away from the connector are connected to each other by a common board trace on the back of the board. If the old solder pads on that trace are not reliable you can run a wire on the component side from each resistor leg to the next one, looping it once around each resistor leg and then solder lightly. This will connect them reliably. Do this if you feel it is needed. My artwork in the photo below sucks but maybe you can see what I mean.
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Thanks again for everyone's help and advise. I'll be chasing parts tomorrow, and if i complete the repair I will post the results. I also plan to contribute to the support of this forum, without it I have no idea where to start.
Tom
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Okay, repaired KAR board and checked resistance, all is good. Re-installed and no change, lights still non operational. I did trace the green wire from the last three lights that don't flash to the molex connector on the back circuit board and with a jumper lead I jumped isolating the harness with no change. I then connected the brown wire which activates the first two lights to the green and all lights started flashing as they should. This makes me think (and I know how dangerous that is). Is there an IC on the mother board that is a driver for flashing lights? Or another thought would it overload the circuit if I jumpered from the brown to the green lead. I'm think'in there's a reason they didn't wire it that way when they designed the machine. I'm open for additional suggestions and comments.
Thanks in advance
Tom
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Did the lights used to work or have they ever worked? Keep in mind that different game boards/software/firmware control and determine the outcome with game hardware functionality. I'd be interested to know what a different board in that game would do. I had a CEI game years ago, and while my board was being repaired, I had a loaner in my game that produced different behavior down to the buttons.
Jason
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Jason,
The lights didn't work when I got the machine, and I don't have any history from previous owner. He got it at an auction and when he found it didn't work he sold it cheap. I picked it up needing a project like another hole in my head, but i'm having fun fooling with it.
Tom
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Yeah, the fact that you have a small amount of voltage resident in the bulbs that aren't lighting up makes me think that all is well and that the bulbs are just waiting for the right commands to come down and light them up, which could very well happen with a different board. Does that game have a diagnostics test menu? Something that would trigger the lamps is what I'm getting at.
Jason
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Not sure new to product and I don't have any manuals or schematics.
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Another member sent me the schematics for the 904 board. I am pretty sure he wouldn't mind me forwarding on to you if you need. Thay arent the best clarity but better than zippo.
Dave F
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Yes Dave,
If it wouldn't be to much trouble. It could only help.
tomoco1@sbcglobal.net
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Okay, not having much luck with the schematic really hard to read, and my eyes are no where near what they used to be. I'm still think'in there's an IC controlling the lights flashing, but I haven't the knowledge to trace it down or for that mater test it's operation if I did find it. So i'm a bit stumped at the moment.
Tom
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I didn't see a circuit or ic on the motherboard schematic drawing that would flash the lights like that. But there are a lot of variations on these Col Omega/CEI machines and I'm not very familiar with them. Just to clarify, this is a video poker machine and your video poker game plays just fine on the screen, all of your buttons work when you press them to do something, the problem is just that those 3 buttons do not light up?
Oftentimes these kind of buttons are daisy-chained in series, if one wire connection is broken then a button and the others following it on the chain don't work. Did you make sure the lamp wires are ok going from the 2 buttons that work (#1 and #2) to button #3? And could the problem be a bad pushbutton #3 assembly, does the lamp voltage run thru the pushbutton internally? How hard is it to swap a couple of buttons around, like swap #1 with #3 to see what happens?
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Yes, everything else works fine. I can see the lights are wired in series, different color wires on the last three lamps than the first two, but have yet to try swapping the switches. I will get into this this afternoon and will respond with my results.
I did use a temporary jumper on the positive leg between switch #2 and #3 which in turn lit #3,4 and 5 and flashed as required. So let me do some more checking. I want to re-trace the positive lead from the #3 switch back to the molex connector at the main board and check for voltage or at least continuity through the wire.
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Yes, everything else works fine. I can see the lights are wired in series, different color wires on the last three lamps than the first two, but have yet to try swapping the switches. I will get into this this afternoon and will respond with my results.
I did use a temporary jumper on the positive leg between switch #2 and #3 which in turn lit #3,4 and 5 and flashed as required. So let me do some more checking. I want to re-trace the positive lead from the #3 switch back to the molex connector at the main board and check for voltage or at least continuity through the wire.
If I follow what you are saying the lamps for buttons 3,4,5 are wired in series with the lamps for buttons #1 and #2, it's just that the last 3 use a different color of wire? Or do you mean the last 3 button lamps are wired separately and not in series with buttons #1 and #2? Does it look like original wiring or do you suspect someone made changes to it in the past? If you leave that temporary jumper in place would buttons #3,4,5 work normally, same as buttons #1 and 2? If so you can try leaving the jumper there and test that all 5 buttons work properly to Hold or Cancel a card. Without knowing more at this time it sounds like button #2 or 3 may have a bad contact/terminal/connection internally and isn't passing the lamp voltage to the next button in series.
From looking at the schematic drawing I have for the mpu, which is for the 904 mpu, it looks like the button lamps are controlled by a couple of large 6520 ic's. On my schematic they are called U34 and U39 but on your board they be named/numbered different. They should be easy to find, they are about the largest ic's on the board, are in sockets, with a marking on the top that includes "6520" in it. These chips operate by control of the software, I'd think they are ok if all you have to do is add a jumper from pushbutton #2 to #3, but you could try switching the two 6520 ic's with each, they are identical. Be careful about bending any pins if you do swap them.
All 5 buttons are the Hold/Cancel buttons for video poker? If needed, maybe someone with a similar CEI/Cal Omega machine can post a photo of their button wiring for you to compare.
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Sorry if I confused you. Switches #1 & #2 are wired in series and #3,4 & 5 are in a separate series. It looks like all original wiring.
I did leave the jumper in and checked the function of the machine and everything works as expected. I would leave it, but i'm concerned I might be overloading the circuit.
I will check the board for the IC's you mentioned and attempt a swap to see if I can find one that follows the failure, and also check switches #2 & #3 for contact issues.
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Sorry if I confused you. Switches #1 & #2 are wired in series and #3,4 & 5 are in a separate series. It looks like all original wiring.
Not to worry, some days it doesn't take too much to confuse me.
I did leave the jumper in and checked the function of the machine and everything works as expected. I would leave it, but i'm concerned I might be overloading the circuit.
I will check the board for the IC's you mentioned and attempt a swap to see if I can find one that follows the failure, and also check switches #2 & #3 for contact issues.
This is just a guess,,,,,
The schematic drawing is faint and hard to read in some places but it looks like there is a group of 5 button switch lamps controlled by one of the 6520 ic's, named U34 U54. It turns the lamps on and off by switching an SCR (sort of like a high current transistor or a gated diode, but different characteristics). Each lamp has its own SCR. The SCR for lamps #3, #4 and #5 are called CR19, CR20 and CR21 on my schematic and should be near ic's U55, U56 and U57. Keep in mind that your mpu board could use different parts designator names than the drawing I am using. EDIT- button lamps #3,4,5 are all operated by CR20. Thanks Doyle!
The SCR looks like a tall 3 legged flat transistor, metal fin on the top. They are usually soldered to the board and standing vertically. Would seem unlikely that 3 SCR's would be bad but maybe if you look around in that area closely you'll see something amiss, like maybe a circuit trace burned open or something since the SCR's all get their power from the same circuit trace.
Can you post a photo of your mpu board, camera angle looking at the front of the board so I can see the components? That would probably help others too, as there is little information on these machines and the variations on them.
The schematic shows that the other 6520 ic (called U34 U39) controls another group of 4 lamps in a similar way. I don't have a machine chassis wiring diagram so can't see how the button lamps get connected to the mpu. If you have the chassis wiring diagram please send it you me, my email address can be shown by clicking on the "Mail this user" link over to the left of this message. Or you can contact me with a private message (click PM, over on the left).
EDIT- corrected typos
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Pix of board
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your 904 mpu photo with some notes.
EDIT- updated photo notes.
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Saw your notes U39 is right U34? is U54. U34 is small 14 pin IC located lower right of your box. So is it possible all three SCR's are bad or would I look to the IC???
Tom
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Saw your notes U39 is right U34? is U54. U34 is small 14 pin IC located lower right of your box. So is it possible all three SCR's are bad or would I look to the IC???
Tom
thanks for the info about U54, I couldn't see the ic name written on the board in photo and the drawing is kinda fuzzy in that area!! I will correct my photo so someone doesn't get mislead later looking at it and not reading these comments.
It would seem unlikely that all 3 SCR's would be bad, they are rugged. That was why I mentioned that maybe a board trace (path) was burned open in the SCR area, that would explain all 3 not working. But I suppose a short in the button wiring harness might have zapped all 3 of them but I'd hate to see you change all 3 and still have the same problem. You could swap just one of them, say CR19, with one of the SCR's that is working, like CR17 or CR18 and see if that changes things. I don't have a Cal Omega machine to play with to see how it exactly works, so it is hard to advise on what to check or measure a certain voltage to figure out exact failure. Does both sides of the board look ok in that SCR area, no darkened parts or traces, no bubbled solder from overheating, no cracks on the SCR body, nothing suspicious?
Another question- I saw in your photo that Dipswitch #2 has positions 5 and 6 both set to ON (closed), I was under the impression that they are normally set to OFF (open) position for normal machine operation. #5 is an input to U54 and may affect its operation regarding the button #3,4,5 lamp switches. #6 affects how the master reset circuit works, is used for troubleshooting.
Try setting these switches to opposite position with machine turned off, one at a time, and see if there are any changes after powering back up.
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Thanks for the tips, I will check the dipswitches as you suggest. Tomorrow when I have more light I will take a better look at the circuit board and the components. I already looked it over pretty well, but with your help I can focus on the area's and components you pointed out.
Thanks again
Tom
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Discard lamps 3,4,5 come off the same driver CR20 and U57
CR 19 and U56 drives discard lamps 1,2 and cancel
on the game board the lamp are labeled as
L 1 Bet
L 2 Deal/Draw
L 3 Cancel and discard 1 , 2
L 4 Discard 3,4,5
L 7 Collect
L 9 Stand
The lamp come off the mother board on J 203 discard 3,4,5 are on pin 6 green wire
doyle
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Thanks Doyle, appreciate your knowledge on this. This is good news, it means that one SCR (CR20) controls all 3 of the button lamps #3,4,5 so it could be causing the problem. And there is one wire from J203 that operates buttons #3,4,5 so it could be broken and causing the problem. I'd bet this wire is more likely to be bad than something on the mpu, we'll see what tomco finds out.
Also, if you have any wiring diagrams on the machine chassis cabinet showing push button wiring and the KAR board connection we'd appreciate getting them from you. Not sure the ones we are using apply to this machine.
Tomco- this information from Doyle points at CR20 or U57 as a possibility of being your problem. You could try replacing CR20 first as it is easier. But you should probably make sure the wiring is ok first, check on the motherboard at J203 pin 6 for a green wire and follow it to destination. Hopefully you'll find that the wire is broken somewhere. This is more likely your problem since the button #3,4,5 lamps worked ok when you added that jumper to the green wire from buttons #1,2.
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Got it, thank you and Doyle for all your wealth of information. I'll keep you updated on my progress.
Tom
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this information from Doyle points at CR20 or U57 as a possibility of being your problem. You could try replacing CR20 first as it is easier. But you should probably make sure the wiring is ok first, check on the motherboard at J203 pin 6 for a green wire and follow it to destination. Hopefully you'll find that the wire is broken somewhere. This is more likely your problem since the button #3,4,5 lamps worked ok when you added that jumper to the green wire from buttons #1,2.
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Today's update: Checked continuity from molex for J203 connector pin #5 green wire (don't have 6 only 5) and wire is good to the switch. This makes me believe I need to start replacing components. Should I start with the SCR first ???? It would be the easiest of the two.
Tom
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Today's update: Checked continuity from molex for J203 connector pin #5 green wire (don't have 6 only 5) and wire is good to the switch. This makes me believe I need to start replacing components. Should I start with the SCR first ???? It would be the easiest of the two.
Tom
Hold on, don't start replacing mpu parts just yet. This sounds like a possible miswire to me. You are saying that the green wire from your Discard buttons #3,4,5 go to pin 5 of J203, instead of pin 6? I think that is wrong, does it look like factory original connection? I think you should try moving that green wire from J203-5 to J203-6 as Doyle and the wiring diagram indicates.
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Yes, it looks as if it has never been touched. On the molex connector from right to left there are five wires next to each other, as in no open connections. Then there are two open connections with two wired connections and one open at the end. I will attach pix.
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I can't see how the connector J203 is numbered, is it 1 thru 10 from left to right, or vice-versa? If from right to left then the green wire is on pin 6??? Are there markings on the board showing connector pin numbers?
.....On the molex connector from right to left there are five wires next to each other, as in no open connections. Then there are two open connections with two wired connections and one open at the end. I will attach pix.
you meant to say from left to right there are 5 wires next to each other.... right?
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Yes, I see, I was counting left to right, but from right to left it is #6. I'll look to see if any numbering is on the connector or the board.
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Okay, after removing the connector there is a 1 on th right and a 10 on the left which would make the green wire at the #6 position.
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Okay, after removing the connector there is a 1 on th right and a 10 on the left which would make the green wire at the #6 position.
it's funny and seems backward of them to number it that way. But if pin 1 is the first one on the right then the green wire is #6 and it matches the wiring diagram.
So that sounds like the wiring is the way it is supposed to be. And that green wire goes to the buttons #3,4,5? If so then maybe your mpu board does have a problem and I agree that changing the SCR CR20 would be a logical place to try.
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Just to double-check this,
did you change dipswitch #2, positions 5 and 6 to OFF (open) and try the game? Both of those are normally in the OFF position. The #5 position affects how the lamps operate with some game software. I noticed in the photo of your mpu that they were ON.
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Just to double-check this,
did you change dipswitch #2, positions 5 and 6 to OFF (open) and try the game? Both of those are normally in the OFF position. The #5 position affects how the lamps operate with some game software. I noticed in the photo of your mpu that they were ON.
Good catch. I'll bet that will take care of it.
Jason
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Okay we have success, I flipped the dipswitch as requested then re-installed the board, no bueno, so I removed the board again and replaced the CR20.( Picked one up this afternoon during my travels), and all is functional all light flashing as normal.
I want to thank everyone who offered help and suggestions as I would never have been able to trouble shoot this alone
A donation will be given to help keep this site up for others who seek help.
Thanks again
Tom
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Okay we have success, I flipped the dipswitch as requested then re-installed the board, no bueno, so I removed the board again and replaced the CR20.( Picked one up this afternoon during my travels), and all is functional all light flashing as normal.
I want to thank everyone who offered help and suggestions as I would never have been able to trouble shoot this alone
A donation will be given to help keep this site up for others who seek help.
Thanks again
Tom
Thanks for sticking with this and letting us know how it ended, others will benefit from your repair log in this thread. And a big thanks to Doyle for the important info that zeroed in on CR20.
Good Job! :cool_thumb_up:
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I love a good success story.
NLG forever ....
Dave F