Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.

[shortrackskater]

I'm making progress if anyone's reading! Where are all the old timers who like this stuff?
I removed the assembly below the candle, to access it and tighten it up. It no longer looks like the leaning tower. Removed the mechanism and the little hopper and cleaned all the contacts and connectors. I set up a $2.50 win situation and the hopper worked although it only paid $2.20!
I also noticed the coins coming from the tube were sticky so I played through a bunch of clean nickels and cleaned the gooey ones, but the "wins" that should be 10 coin are only 5. The nickels are coming out clean now, but I'll probably try removing and cleaning out the coin tube and try to figure out why the payouts are wrong.
I cleaned the reels!

[IFFV68]

You may want to take off the coin tube and run a 12 ga. or 20 ga. shotgun swab thru it with some type of solvent.
My older ones are made of Brass.
I'm not familiar with that type of Mills machine.
If it has Coin slot on the bottom which controls the payout they can get gummed up.
The old days they used Gasoline to clean everything. We don't use that anymore, I hope. I use 3 in 1 oil or WD-40 to lube.
That is one Cool looking machine.
The old Mills and Jennies are almost Bullet Proof.
Nice find.

[shortrackskater]

I've done some cleaning. The payout fingers were all gummed up. Now all the payouts from the coin tube are correct. 
However, when I set up a win for the higher payouts, the hopper seems to be intermittent to engage. When it does, it correct, or spit out one extra coin. But the problem is that sometimes it just won't come on. I've checked the relays and shot some contact cleaner in the but they still look dark. I know many EM contacts are not supposed to be cleaned since they're rounded but what about relay contacts? Can I use something more abrasive than simply cleaner?

[drfreeze1739]

Thats great that you got that part to work..

i haved used a very light sandpaper on them.. i know some people say not to buy some times you have too because it takes off the copper or brass and you have to readjust everything.


some people will disagree with it.




i have done it very lightly just to take off the black and thats it.


mabey some one will know the right way to do it.

[shortrackskater]

I'm finally getting back to this machine ( with the ass on the glass!) - after cleaning, lubing, I have a machine that pays out perfectly from the coin tube. But it has the hopper jackpot feature which was intermittent still. I did some more contact and connector cleaning and the hopper works now but is short by one coin on payout. It's an interesting machine - for example, when you hit the three watermelons, the coin tube immediately releases 20 coins followed by the hopper, which spit out an additional 30. And another cool feature is a hopper coin out counter, which resets each time. Oh... The light ( was burned out) and a buzzer go on and off now during the payout. 
In this case my hopper counter was at 30 but only 29 came out. I peeked inside to see one coin number 30 right on the roller - see picture. Is this a brake issue?

[drfreeze1739]

could be the brake.


could be the counting switch and arm.


could be the knife.


dose it miss count every time?

[shortrackskater]

It was short one on each three melon payout but I'll set up a three bar to verify. I'll be back!
UPDATE:
This is frustrating. I pulled out the hopper just to visually inspect it again after there was a jam. Inside is a metal plate at the bottom of the hopper that's spring loaded. I think it's just to keep the coins from jamming of course. The plate was jammed! I cleaned it and made sure it moved in and out properly.
Then I powered on the machine... Now the damn thing is just randomly powering up the hopper and spitting out coins all the time! SHEESH! This is why I hate EM machines... this one is probably the simplest one ever and it still is doing bizarre stuff!
I have no idea where to go from here...
After I got in bed last night, my tired brain re-engaged.     Something like this happened when my frayed power cord was shorting out so I'll pull the hopper out and inspect all the AC wiring around the back and hopper.

[shortrackskater]

Intermittent runaway hopper problem solved: the contacts on the switch for the three melon jackpot had just come close enough to make intermittent contact. I just bend it back to match the other two and that fixed my hopper from just randomly spitting out nickles. Picture shows proper spacing.
Now I'm back to the one coin underpay issue...

Updating to continue this topic... Feb 2016 - STILL had runaway hopper but I think it's the switch. I adjusted the spacing on the lever to the switch. It may have been too high and not registering coin outs. Sorry for my crappy terminology here.

[shortrackskater]

Okay...this is odd but the underpay turned into an overpay problem! This happened after I fixed the jackpot switch problem. But I had adjusted the hopper knife just before that. So I went back in and move the knife up just about 1mm and that seemed to do it. Now the hopper spits and counts out 30 coins as it should.
So as of now, all problems are solved. 
Guess I should set up the other jackpots and see what happens...or maybe I'll just play the thing til they hit!
 

[shortrackskater]

I THOUGHT this was working properly! I did get a new lock though... works great!
It's paying fine on all the pays from the coin tube. But, for the jackpot pays from the hopper, it only pays from the three watermelon win and not the three bars or three sevens. On those wins,  it only pays the first amount from the tube but the hopper doesn't even turn on! This is frustrating... I'm good with the newer stuff but I'm horrible with figuring out EM stuff!
Anyone know where I should look here? The Mills EM is an oddball...

[shortrackskater]

Back to the Mills...

For anyone reading this who isn't familiar with the machine - this particular Mills M head is the version with the "jackpot hopper" which makes the three highest pays using the EM hopper. It DID work when I first got the machine, although it was underpaying and overpaying. For some reason, it got funky!

Now the jackpot hopper started underpaying. After a few more plays and trying to check contacts, switches, relays the machine hopper stopped paying out more than a few coins with the hopper!
I've tried tracing the wiring from the exact points on the three "jackpot" contact switches on the reel mechanism assembly.
All ARE making contact for the appropriate win situations which are the three melons, bars, or sevens. 
Those switches are wired to a connector on the back of the mechanism which plugs into a female connector on the back of the slot. That connects (via cable) up to a box on top housing a few relay switches and that box is connected (another cable) to a side box with more relay switches. The latter is then connected to the hopper. I've checked all those connections as well. The problem is: this stuff confuses me! I really need a wiring diagram and, so far, have been unable to find one.
When I manually set up a win situation, it will occasionally spit out two or three coins from the hopper, intermittently. If I pull the mech out and in a little, the hopper kicks on and a few more coins come out with the hopper. Frustrating...

[SolidSilver]

It seems you have the hopper mechanism itself worked out, so it at least was reacting to, and paying the correct number of coins, for the triple melons. The triple bars, and triple 7s have not in your experience ever worked at all. And, it sounds like the triple melons payoff may be still be erratic.

I think it is time to look at the system’s “counting module(s).”  That would be those two or three sets of relays you mentioned.

While I have never played with a hopperized M-head, as an old experienced EM design engineer before the “solid-state” world, I can imagine how the Mills man would have set this thing up using only EM relays. It’s how I would have done it for TJM.

1.   The hopper only pays out in three increments, depending on which jackpot is hit: 30 coins, 80 coins, and 180 coins.  Basically, when a hit is made, the hopper is turned on and held on by a latching relay; and the specific jackpot contacts select where the EM counter (counting pulses from the hopper’s coin-out switch) will turn the hopper OFF by deactivating that latching relay, and resetting the counter.

2.   While there are several different EM counter approaches possible, I would have chosen telephone-style stepping switches, wherein a relay coil moves an (input) contact arm around a circular array of (output) contact points. Cheapest in my mind would have been a standard 100-pointer, using a single cheap “alternating” or “X2” relay to let it go around twice to reach 180.

3.   Each specific jackpot contact would lead to a specific relay that would turn on the counter and connect the counter’s relevant (30, 80, or 100) count output contact to the “deactivate” side of the hopper-ON latching relay. (And of course other relays involved to reset the counter, illuminate messages, pulse payoff bell, etc)

Anyway, can you supply some good detailed interior photos of those “relay boxes” you mentioned? I think that’s where the Bars and 7s problem is, and perhaps we can figure out from  good photos the exact EM scheme that was used.

C'mon Mark: this is FUN 

[shortrackskater]

Ok the fun has begun... 
I've just spend a good hour and a half fussing with this machine. I did find a fuse near the hopper that was loose... it was intermittently making contact but was likely working in the machine. I replaced it hoping that might have been the problem but nope!
One thing I did do that might help was I traced the wiring from the "three melon" (nice melons!) win switch to the back connector. I removed the mechanism and made contact from pin 1 to pin 7 of the back connector, which activated the hopper. So I know the wiring from the mechanism to that back plug is good. I checked the other "wins" as well to make sure.
With that, here are pictures. First are two shots of the TOP unit, which is where the plug from the back of the mechanism reaches first. The three counters are seen respectively. Lower pictures to follow... once I eat dinner and refill my wine glass!
 

[SolidSilver]

Possible confusion in terminology: the three Durant counters in the photo are, I think, count display units, such as for number of coins in, jackpots paid off, etc.  We're looking for one or more pulse-counters, which will be a relay coil driving some form of rotary contact mechanism.

Well, actually, I suppose it is possible Mills got Durant to build a special counter version for this purpose, with a repetitive count wheel-with-contacts added internally. Can you show more pictures of them, including the displays and markings? Most intriguing!

[shortrackskater]

Pics coming once I get off work later this afternoon.
Yes those three counters counted the coins out for the hopper jackpot. When the next coin was put in and handle pulled, they reset.

[SolidSilver]

AHA!  Mills must have had some pull ($$$) with Durant, a most unusual product for them.
Anyway, this is the area that's keeping your other two jackpots from paying off, and may contribute to erratic action on the melons. Fascinating approach, can't wait to see details, and read your description of exactly what transpires.

[shortrackskater]

Here's the front of what I showed before, just for the heck of it - so you can see where they are.
The next picture is the LOWER unit, located to the left of the hopper.
Counter pictures coming...

[shortrackskater]

Next...
Shot of back of Durant counter unit. Next shot is side of counter, flipped for easier reading!
Added third shot... my working area right now. Status (which I'm randomly playing now) on the right, Fortune 2 in the middle (singing Billy Magee Magaw now) and Mills on the left.
Finally... below the circuit board that's right of the counters (facing) are two big caps, diodes and resistors.

[shortrackskater]

As of now, the hopper won't work when I set up a win with the three melons (or any other jackpot). However when I remove the mechanism and short pins 1 to 7 on the connector (which make contact from the melon win), the hopper does engage and spit out a few coins. But the counters don't budge. 
Of course I may be overlooking the other connections made from the plug... so I guess I'm just testing the hopper.
 

[SolidSilver]

Unipulsers? In the ‘60s? Wow, I first saw those in use with the F-15 jet fighter in the ‘70s. Well, Serial numbers under 1000: probably very early units for Durant. I learn something new (or old) every day.

Well, OK, now we know how the system works. These are 10-step counters; every time one counts past 9 to 0, it pulses the counter to it’s left once. Each counter has an output contact set for each of it’s numbers: Pin F/6 is common, and pins G/7 thru P/15 are for numbers 1 thru 0. (I’ll never know why Durant numbered their pinouts both alpha and numeric…) 

The specific jackpot contacts on the machine will turn on

A.   a latching relay which turns on the hopper motor; the hopper’s coin-output counting switch will pulse the rightmost (lowest integer) counter with each coin.

and

B.   a relay (or relay set) that connects the appropriate counter contact sets to the latching hopper relay, so that when the desired count is reached, it is turned off.

Thus, for your machine, the melon-jackpot switch will in some manner…

1.   Activate a latching relay that either directly controls the hopper motor, or which in turn activates another relay that runs the hopper motor.

and

2.   Activate a relay which connects pin 8/H of the middle counter (corresponding to a count of 30) to the latching hopper relay.

3.   It is likely these two relays are in tandem. A latching relay is an ordinary relay in which one of it’s activated contact sets is wired to turn itself on; and the line between that contact and its coil is routed through some other (relay or switch) which interrupts the connection when activated, de-latching the relay.

When you trace the melon circuitry on your machine, you will see how the jackpot hopper activate-and-count system works. This will help you track down the problem with the other two jackpots, because they will be similar…

A.   The 80-coin count connection to the middle counter will be Pin 13/M.

B.   The180-count connection will involve the same Pin 13/M on the middle counter, plus pin 6/F of the leftmost (highest integer) counter: the system will require that both contacts are activated, corresponding to a count of 180.

The relays latched by the 80- and 180-count jackpot contacts are not doing their thing, either because they aren’t being activated, or something downstream of them is geschnutze (technical term… ). It seems likely there is a common cause.

DANG, I wish I could join you in your shop;  this is the fun part

(By the way, on reset, do the counters count around to zero, or just instantly snap to zero?)