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Author Topic: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.  (Read 30665 times)

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Offline shortrackskater

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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2016, 08:22:20 PM »
They snap back!
Ok... got some reading to do but this will get me educated on everything I don't know on this... THANK YOU.
Dinner break now, with wine, possibly lots. I will return soon.  :drinking_wine:
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2016, 08:43:05 PM »
The purpose of dinner is to create a palatable background for the wine. :bottles2:

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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2016, 10:22:15 AM »
The purpose of dinner is to create a palatable background for the wine. :bottles2:

 :agreepost:
And THANK YOU for the in depth explanation on the counters and relays... I will re-read and re-re-read that, and start the tracing process. That makes a lot more sense now for my confused brain! For some reason, I can figure out the newer stuff but when it gets to this I start to fade.
So I appreciate this greatly and will post back soon.
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2016, 09:17:14 PM »
Red and green wires (from mechanism switch for three melon win) end up at the far relay on the left (photo) and the green goes to a diode between a terminal. The other end of the diode goes to the center counter, pins 5, 6, 7 (or e,h,f where's the g???) on the center counter.
Does the current get supplied from the counter to the relays? I tested the diode and it appears to be good. I checked the others and got the same reading.
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2016, 09:54:12 PM »
Let's back up; There are 4 or five wires on the hopper cable: 2 for motor AC, 2 for coin-out switch, and maybe a ground. Yes?

1.At least one of the motor AC wires should go to a contact on one of the two relays in your picture. That will be the relay which actually turns on the hopper. You should be able to press that relay's contact bar into actuated position, causing the hopper motor to turn without actuating the other relay. Yes?

2. At least one of the hopper's count-switch wires should go to a pin on the rightmost (lowest integer) counter. Yes?

Okay what I found so far was, YES one AC wire goes to a relay but it goes to one in the lower relay box. And I may not have made that clear in my earlier posts, since I don't know what the hell I'm doing! Sorry about that. And there are other wires from that lower relay box that appear to lead to the counters but it's not easy to trace them... but I will if it's needed!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 07:04:06 PM by shortrackskater »

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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2016, 10:06:51 PM »
What I'll need to do is connect the upper box carefully, while it's laying on the bottom.
Then I can check those things...
Problem: I'm not feeling well tonight dang it. I will be back tomorrow for awhile.  Then there's that other thing Wednesday...ick!  :hissyfit:
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2016, 04:40:27 PM »
I'm back... with a clean bill of health  :cool_thumb_up: and other clean "things."
I'll start probing in the slot now... oh bad choice of words!  :rotfl:
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2016, 05:13:37 PM »
Glad everything went well.   :applause:      :Please_Post_Pictures_2clr:        :yes: :rotfl:   :lol::24:   or not.  :cool_thumb_up:
"All things being equal. The easiest explanation and the easiest answer is probably the right one".

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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2016, 05:21:46 PM »
Glad everything went well.   :applause:      :Please_Post_Pictures_2clr:        :yes: :rotfl:   :lol: :24:   or not.  :cool_thumb_up:
:thank_you:
I COULD!!! They gave me a sheet of "lovely" glossy photos! I'll stick to "not" on that one though.  :applause:
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2016, 06:40:16 PM »
Let's back up; There are 4 or five wires on the hopper cable: 2 for motor AC, 2 for coin-out switch, and maybe a ground. Yes?

1.At least one of the motor AC wires should go to a contact on one of the two relays in your picture. That will be the relay which actually turns on the hopper. You should be able to press that relay's contact bar into actuated position, causing the hopper motor to turn without actuating the other relay. Yes?

2. At least one of the hopper's count-switch wires should go to a pin on the rightmost (lowest integer) counter. Yes?

I started tracing the AC from the hopper motor as well as from the AC line input. I'm marking the plug pins as I go along. However... I'm suddenly losing my ability to concentrate! I guess they weren't kidding when they said to rest for the day. I'll be back when I'm fully off this stuff! :sleep:
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2016, 07:23:15 PM »
Okay I've traced the AC wire from the hopper and it does go to a relay but one on the bottom relay box, near the hopper. I may not have made that clear in my previous post! Sorry about that.
And there are other wires from the hopper plug that lead up to the top relay box that has the counters.
There's two relays in the lower box, and one of the AC wires from the hopper motor (red) run to the smaller sealed relay. I did clean the contacts on it earlier in the game but have not actually checked it electrically since I didn't get that far! Hope this is making sense. I'll try to connect all this back and manually trip that relay. Here's a simple block diagram of the relay boxes and hopper. AC input is at the lower relay box. That darn NLG tag is in the way! Joey? Well just click the picture.

UPDATE:
Tripping relay 1 actuates the hopper but it only increments maybe 3 coins out, then it stops. I did this numerous times. One time, the counter advanced. When I pressed relay number 2, it reset.
Intermittently, relay number 4 also actuated the hopper but I could not repeat it (big cap discharging?). And each time I trip relay number 1, there is a small arc or spark from relay number 3, which has the clear top on it.
I have no idea if this helps... I feel as if I need to draw a schematic of all this. I wish SOMEONE had one for this. I didn't realize these were so rare.
Again, CLICK the picture because the NLG tag blocks the top relay box.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 07:17:53 PM by shortrackskater »
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No doubt, Mark, it isn't easy; but then Sherlock Holmes always found cases more interesting when they were dumbfoundingly complex. Hey, this stuff is FUN!  :Crazy:

1. The capacitor(s) is (are) there for one of two reasons: arc suppression to extend the life of relay contacts switching an inductive load; or time delay, to keep a relay activated for a short time after the upstream activating relay has turned off. My guess is that at least one cap is in a timer circuit (with an associated bleed resistor), as you indicate manually tripping one relay always causes the hopper to run for a specific amount of time.

2. Before we trace any more wiring (but be prepared for it...), it's worth while to point out that in old EM equipment like this, the most likely components to crap out from age are capacitors and relay contacts***; and bad capacitors in an arc suppression circuit will burn out relay contacts.  Fortunately,  all are relatively easy/cheap to fix. Let's start there, as fixed wiring is unlikely to be bad, and there ain't no durn ICs or software  :applause: :applause: :applause:

    A: Each cap will be marked with a capacitance (usually in mFd) and a voltage; and it will be a specific type. While you can measure the cap's actual performance, it's usually easier to just replace the durn cheap thing; and old wax electrolytics often show it when they have died. Can you provide pics of the various caps in & around the relays? If the markings are not visible, please quote them.

   B: That "clear covered" relay implies it is the most stressed of all, and is thus one we should check out first.   It probably has a brand name and spec # on it. Can you read/show the markings?
         ii: Is the relay a plug-in? Most of that description are in an "octal" socket, and can be pulled out.
         iii: are there little screws at the base of the clear cover, by which the cover can be removed? This is common.
      The answers to ii and iii will tell us if we can R&R the relay, or easily replace it.

***Note: the other component most likely to crap out from old age is the operator :rotfl:

Put on your deerstalker, Mark; the game's afoot!!! :sherlock:


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Delays! Sorry - had to deal with mom in ER a few nights ago (just til 2am!) with BP well 200 something over something else... bad... stroke/aneurysm level. That threw things off for the week... but she's better!

Back to the problem at hand...
I started with the smaller board, with the two relays I've names 3 and 4.
As requested, written on the sealed one is R10-E1-X2-V700 24VDC. It unplugs (and it's got 8 pins!)  and the cover is removable.
The cap on the board is 500mf. I measured it with my never-used cheap cap tester. The settings are confusing but I get a consistent reading of 548-550mf.
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OK, that's a Potter & Brumfield (AMF/PB) relay with SilCadOx contacts. It is intended to switch high-arc AC loads (like motors!) from 24 volts DC. It's far more expensive than all those other open relays, especially as they chose to add the cost of the plug-in socket; and the plug-in choice implies expectation of replacement.  I'll bet a buck & a doughnut that's the one that actually turns on the hopper motor, the biggest inductive load in your machine.

(Interestingly, SilCadOx contacts require a certain amount of arcing to keep themselves clean..; but "cleaning" with an abrasive slip will usually remove what's left of the plating, resulting in very short contact life afterward. That's one reason they are most commonly found in replaceable, not fixed, relays. Today, price of a new one is about 20 bucks)


We THINK it's working, because the hopper runs on the melon jackpot; but erratically? The problem is probably upstream of this relay, but let's check.
1. With the relay unplugged and cover off, can you clip up your continuity/resistance checker and manually
force the relay with screwdriver or other poker of some sort? Attached is the contact schematic pulled from the manufacturer's spec sheet on this relay. Yours is the 2-Pole, and you want activated continuity between pins 9 & 10, AND between pins 6 & 7.

2. With the relay plugged in, but the cover off, can you SAFELY (remember it is switching 110VAC) force it on? If so, the hopper motor should run. (with the machine plugged in, of course.. :duh:  )

As for the capacitor, it looks clean and your measurements show it to be good. Let's leave it for now.

Cool, keep on keepin' on.





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1. Pins 9 and 10, 6 and 7 - check!

I'll update this post in a few minutes when I try the power on test  :lightningbolt: :lightningbolt:

UPDATE:
Okay I carefully plugged it all in (had to wire tie the relay to keep it from wiggling away) and we have a hopper activation! And it's continuous as well.  :applause:
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Houston, we have a bingo! You have found the hopper-motor relay, and determined it is working.
We can now track backwards from here.

This relay's coil pins are pins 1 & 4. One will be connected to a 24VDC common, or ground; the other will be connected to the contacts of the relay that turns it on. And that one is likely the latcher, activated
(perhaps indirectly) by the 3 jackpots. Can you trace it?

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The sealed relay pin 1 output goes to the minus side of the big 500mf cap, with the positive side of the cap leading the the other relay (the 400 ohm 24vdc W88X-12).
The minus side of the cap two other wires going out. One connects to the plug that leads up to the top box (with the other relays, counters). One connects another pin on the "open" relay.
Pin 4 of the sealed relay goes to one side of a big (2watt?) 33 ohm resistor. The other side of that resister has two wires: one hooks to another pin of the W88x-12 relay and the other goes the plug that connects to the top box.

I drew a very crude schematic that (I hope) shows what I just wrote.  I've never drawn one before!
It's only showing what I traced. There are many other wires including the ones that go to the other plug that connects to the hopper.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 06:52:22 PM by shortrackskater »
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 :bump_2:


It's almost happy hour.  :love_whiskey:
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:bump_2:


It's almost happy hour.  :love_whiskey:


Been there done that. :propeller:
"All things being equal. The easiest explanation and the easiest answer is probably the right one".

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It's happy hour again!
SolidSilver... SENIOR MEMBER... please respond or I'll keep drinking wine...
Hmmm that may not be so bad!  :rotfl:
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