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Author Topic: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.  (Read 30667 times)

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Offline SolidSilver

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I think you are on the right track. You should have 24volts in your machine, from the power supply.

Are you a shortwave listener?  I used my dad's old Zenith Transoceanic (about 30 pounds!) up through the '70s, then switched to a Hammarlund, which I still use. Listening to current news from the viewpoint of another country is most enlightening! (Until the tubes poop out...)

Offline shortrackskater

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The problem with using  24 vdc from the machine, is getting it to the relay. The only way to reach the two relays on the top unit is to remove the mechanism, then unscrew the top unit, which mounts flush right above the mechanism. I'd have to jumper it but there's really no working space inside the machine.
I'll find an external source...


I used to listen to a little short wave years ago. Had an awesome BIG Kenwood receiver that mostly sat there. It died when I tried to power it up a few years ago so I just sold it.
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I rarely use the radio but it works.
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Offline SolidSilver

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Sheesh, I didn't realize how difficult access was in this thing; but then, it had the hopper and jackpot counting mechanism added to an already existing design.

I'm thinking (ooh, dangerous ground, Jim.... :no:) that a 3-coin hopper payout, which should have been 30, implies there is either a short between counters or a contact pair stuck in the actuated position. Look at it this way: the first counter, counting pulses directly from the hopper coin-out switch, goes 0-10, gives the next counter an increment, goes around again, gives another increment, and goes around & increments a third time.  When that second counter gets to THREE, it shuts off the hopper motor, probably by de-latching the motor-drive relay (or the relay that operates it).

But if every hopper coin-out pulse is going to the second (middle) counter, it would delatch at 3, not 30. Make sense?

Let me scratch my head and think up a simple way or two to test it. In the meantime, I would think that disco the hopper coin-out switch would result in a runaway payoff IF the counters are actually counting.

CHEESE, I wish I could fly down and join you in that garage: this one's a real brain-bender, for which read: FUN :Crazy:


Offline SolidSilver

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Hoboy, it's hard not to hit the ol' vino on this one!

Unipulser counter pins are numbered 1-17, but letters A-U:  G, I, O, and Q are skipped!  :Crazy:

Counter activating coil pins are A-1 and U-17. I’m assuming A-1 is common, as in your photo all the counters have their first pins on a brown wire. Therefore U-17 should be the “signal” pin from somewhere else, which causes the counter to “count 1”

Therefore, there should [Dang, I hate that word  :banghead:] be a connection between one side of the hopper coin-out switch and Pin U-17 of the first (lowest denominator) counter.  This would be the counter on your left when looking at the 3 counters from behind. This would make that first counter index up one with each coin spat into the output tray.

There should also be a connection between the first counter’s Pin S-15 (10-count) and the middle counter’s Pin U-17: this would cause the middle counter to count up 1 with every ten counts from the first counter.

Finally, the middle counter’s Pin J-8 (count of 30: 3 counts of 10 from the first counter) should connect to a relay that is latched by the melon jackpot switch; and through it to de-latch the hopper motor relay (that covered one you discovered)

Therefore (said the professor... :Professor: ) if you unplug the wire from the middle counter's Pin J-8, and set up a 3-melon payoff, the result should be a nonstop hopper run, as the counter will be unable to turn off the hopper motor when it's 30-count is reached.  If this occurs, the problem is within  the counters themselves, or a relay or two in immediate conjunction.

If something else occurs, or doesn't occur, let me know; right now my head hurts...


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Okay I'm still checking relays...
I again removed the top box (I think I'm going to wear out the crappy fiberboard holes soon!) and for whatever it's worth, checked the two relays there with a 13v power source. It won't fully close the relays but they energize and stay shut when I closed them manually. They both released when I cut the power.
I think I need to go back to that one relay on the side board, the one next to the sealed relay. If that checks out good, then I'll start with your last "to do" list.  :applause:
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Offline shortrackskater

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Ok I just finished testing the other two relays in the smaller lower board. I'm 99.9% sure they all work. Even though I used half the needed voltage, they energized and stayed shut, then released.
Unfortunately, when I lined up a three melon win, it didn't. Well it spit ONE from the hopper (right after the usual mechanical payout).

I'll now look back at your posts, Mr. SolidSolver and see if I can silve this problem eventually... err SolidSilver and see if I can SOLVE...  :Tongue_Out:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 08:35:41 PM by shortrackskater »
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Offline SolidSilver

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ONE coin out of hopper, not 3? Aw, cheese: it's erratic, just what we need.
OK, the easiest first step here is to disco either of the two wires on the hopper coin-out switch, then set up a 3-melon win. If you have a runaway hopper, the problem is in the counting circuit(s). If the hopper continues to randomly spit out one or a few coins, the problem is in the hopper-drive-relay latching circuit. That is, whatever is turning on that covered relay is weak, or has burned points, or for some other reason is cutting out before it's told to.

Hmmm, interesting... :Eating_Popcorn:

Offline shortrackskater

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Okay I taped both contacts to the coin-out switch. Now with a three melon set up, I only get coins from the tube (the usual) and nothing from the hopper.

Update:
Well now I removed the tape and it's doing the same: no coins from hopper at all... not even ONE.
 :Scratch-Head: :Scratch-Head:

Should I go back to reply #83?
 
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Nope, it’s not the counter circuit(s). The relay you have identified as the hopper-motor-drive is simply closing it’s contacts erratically: sometimes long enough for a coin or three, sometimes not at all. Four things could cause this: you may have already verified some of them.

1.   Weak/erratic 24vdc power supply; or power feed to the various relays or the boards they sit on. Note that multiple 24vdc relays are likely operating at the same time. Reading 24vdc from the PS with nothing activated does not mean it doesn’t drop down or out when supplying current.

2.   Of the two relay coil leads (pins), one should be going to 24vdc ground (probably the same as one side of the hopper coin-out switch): that connection may be weak or intermittent.

3.   The relay coil itself may be weak or dead; try your 13vdc trick on it.

4.   The OTHER pin of the relay coil is what receives the ON signal. That signal is weak/erratic. Having verified all is cool with #1 thru 3 above, trace that line back to its origin. It will probably be a contact set on another relay.

Hopping around a bit, but getting there: coolness prevails, Dude  :cool_thumb_up:

Offline shortrackskater

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I did test both relays closest to the hopper.
I removed that lower board again and set up the three melons.
For whatever reason it's now spitting out 10 coins. After it stopped I manually engaged the covered (uncovered right now) relay and the hopper just came on. But now it's NOT counting coins at all.
 ??? ?
I'm not good with this stuff.  :banghead:
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OK, I'm confused. I understand this is difficult and frustrating, but I really need to understand specifics. It's a little bit like directing surgery over the 'phone.

1. "It's now spitting out 10 coins." Did it output 10 coins the one time you tried it, or is it now consistently putting out exactly 10 coins, no more/no less, over multiple runs? The difference is huge in terms of where to go now.

2. "Now it's not counting coins at all."
    A. Are the coin-out switch wires still disconnected? If so, well naturally.....
    B. I assume you mean the Durant counters are not showing coins going out when you manually drive the hopper..

3. You "tested" those relays. Does that include applying your 13vdc power supply to the hopper-drive relay's coil? Were you able to do so while there was power to the machine, to observe the hopper leaping into action (or not) ?

4. Did you spill any of that wine on the board(s)? Some wines are electrically conductive..... :burningresistor:





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1. Sorry I'm giving you inconsistent information here... this slot is confused, like me.  :propeller:
Tonight I lined up the three melon win and, each time I do this the hopper spits out 6 coins only. For some reason, the 10 coin spit out stopped! This happened 4 times in a row.
When it finished the 6 coin pay, I can engage the small covered relay and the hopper will run indefinitely. I guess that's just verifying that that particular relay is working and that, for some reason, it's not being told to keep going.
2. During the latter 6 coin payout, the counter IS intermittent. Sometimes, it registers 3, sometimes 0.
The coin counter switches are still connected.
The Durant counters are still connected. (That's what I was supposed to say) I didn't get to that yet.
I tried to pull one and it wouldn't budge. Then I got side tracked with my stupid neck issue and forgot about this step! Oops.
3. I think this is answered in question 1, I hope. I don't know which other relay to test... I need to backtrack this long thread to see what you told me before. And, no I didn't add power while the machine was powered. I'm tying to buy a variable voltage power supply on ebay now, which will help me test stuff.
4. No wine spilled yet!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 05:06:29 PM by shortrackskater »
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The durant counters are impossible to remove wires from. They seem to be soldered to leads that stick out. I see no way to release them whatsoever.
I need a "MILLS EM FOR DUMMIES" book. I wish Mills made a SCHEMATIC for this machine, but it seems they never did. I've looked everywhere and found nothing.
I'm just not understanding how the counter function works with the payout. Does the payout switch activate the counter? What engages timing for the hopper/relays to make the proper payout?
I put the whole thing back together, set up the three melon pay and now NOTHING comes out of the hopper. Last time it was back at 3!
I DO know that the counter reset voltage is getting there since, no matter what amount the hopper pays when it does, the counters do reset.

When I manually drive the hopper, the counters do not count the payout.
 
It's nearly impossible to apply power to the upper relays since I can't connect it and operate the slot machine with the upper part out, unless I make up some long jumper cables.


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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2016, 05:29:41 PM »
A HUGE THANK YOU TO SOLIDSILVER JIM for all the help on this.
I finally decided to move the machine on to someone more capable than me! My EM troubleshooting skills just aren't up to par and I obviously went wrong in numerous places, which lead to checking other areas. The good thing is I did learn a lot thanks to Jim, who I wish would return eventually.

I'm in contact with the new owner. The machine is WORKING now and is sitting right next to its almost twin!
Either myself or Ceasar will post again with what the problem was.
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2016, 04:56:50 PM »
:applause: :applause: IT'S WORKING  :applause: :applause:

The following is a detailed report from Ceasar, the new owner of my Mills M head. I just cut and pasted the texts in order of when I got them, as he figured it out.
Hopefully, he'll chime in soon to introduce himself. Please welcome him to NLG.

From Ceasar:
The issue is in the hopper, I swapped in my 25cent hopper from other machine and it pays correctly. Now to find the glitch.

Got the hopper working. The counting switch was the issue. It should be normally open, but a wire was transposed to normally closed so the top counters were confused. Had to check my 25 cent hopper circuit to figure it out as it worked in the 5 cent machine.
I took pics of what needs to be looked at on these hoppers and the two tools that one should have to check em:
Top one is a battery powered fuse tester. With no coins in hopper, the two prongs should show closed circuit, which will power hopper up to get coins up the disk once a JP is hit. The other is a lamp cord with crimped on connectors. You push em on the pins that are oriented like a wall plug and then plug the plug into an outlet. That'll power up the hopper. If it runs, the motor and wiring is good.
On the backside of hopper, these 2 bolts allow for adjustment of the roller that triggers the micro switch:
The switch must be wired so to be in the "normally closed" position with NO coin under the roller. This is correct wiring position (looking up from bottom of hopper):
Lastly, when the counters up top hit the right number for payout number, it will stop the hopper with a coin in this position under roller:
The counters kill the power to the hopper and the micro switch is in the open position here, so that when the next hopper payout comes up, the upper circuits close and complete the circuit to the hopper motor starting the payout and when the coin in pic moves past roller, the micro switch closes and sends a charge to the counters that a coin has been paid out.
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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2016, 02:10:06 PM »
Just want to thank shortrackskater for all the help in getting me signed up here on NLG (and to get some of the stuff stuck in my head out in the open) and for the work in moderating and getting my pictures re-oriented. This thread should be of some use to others who may happen across one of these machines. It's all a trek of discovery!

-Caesar

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Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2016, 08:31:52 AM »
 :thank_you:

Hope to see you here more often Ceasar! We definitely need someone with your expertise with these old machines!
I'm happy the slot is working and paying.
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