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Author Topic: kicker on hopper not working  (Read 12523 times)

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Offline rjpohl

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kicker on hopper not working
« on: February 12, 2015, 05:39:06 AM »
The hopper spins but the kicker never pulls in so no coins are dispensed.  I have tested the solenoid by connecting it to a 110v test plug and it pulled in as it should.  The kicker works freely by hand.  What activated the solenoild? 
Thanks
Bob

Offline Jim

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 07:46:21 PM »
Bob,   something looks strange in the picture.  the grey wire which comes in on pin 8 has the 100vac, it goes to one side of the two relays, one relay when told will put the 110 to one side of the motor,(grey wire) the other relay puts 110 to one side of the solenoid(blue wire.) both the motor and solenoid have a common (neutral side of the 110 ) wire (white wire).hopper control wire  is brown, solenoid     control wire is yellow.  the pink wire is 5vdc to both opto inputs of the relays. according to the description, both turn on and off at the same time. your wiring looks like the two wires from the solenoid are going to the same place, one should be sharing the white wire with the motor, the other should be attached to the blue wire coming from the solenoid relay.
I would do the following, unhook the two wires from the solenoid,  pull in the kicker and secure it so the hopper could count out, press the test button four times to get in the hopper test mode , the hopper should count out 10 or 11 or 12 coins ( because the kicker is not hooked up) if it does this then the hopper is working as it should. now all you have to do is straighten out the wiring and hopefully it will solve the problem. worst case , you could hook the motor and solenoid in parallel, should work.


Hope This Helps


Jim 



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Offline rjpohl

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2015, 04:11:03 AM »
Jim,
I cut those wires and connedted 110 direct to solenoid to test it.  I then reconnected wires and taped each set separetly.  The 2 sets are not touching as the picture might look like.
Bob

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 12:14:38 PM »
Just for kicks I tie -wraped the kicker open, I then played machine until it hit a payout.  It paid out (more than it should because kicker couldn't open) and went into a tilt. My guess it's the hopper board at fault but I don't have a good one to try.  Any suggestions or does anyone have a board to sell?
thanks
Bob


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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 03:56:33 PM »
Bob,   I see you did as I suggested,  the hopper motor signal and the kicker solenoid signal both come from the main board, they happen at the same time, so the kicker and the motor turn on at  the same time.  just hook the two blue wires from the kicker to the two wires from the motor.  there should be a grey wire and a white wire going to the motor, hook one blue wire from the kicker solenoid to the white wire, and hook the other blue wire from the kicker solenoid to the grey wire, now when the motor turns on the kicker should pull in, the hopper will count the number of coins, the board will turn off the motor and kicker at the same time so any drift coins should be "kicked" back into the hopper. 

your machine should operate just fine.

with the door open, on the panel where the meters are, there is two buttons, one green and one ?  and there is a yellow one on the front of the cabinet. the green one will either put you in the test mode or put a credit on the machine, if it puts a credit on the machine, then the other one will put you in the test mode, in the test mode, just like a bally machine, pushing it four times will turn on the hopper, it will count ten coins and stop.  the yellow push button will reset a tilt .

Hope this helps

Jim   



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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 09:49:05 AM »
Jim, I wired the kicker to the motor leads as you suggested. The kicker does now pull in and the coins are dispensed.  Problem is that it over pays almost every time by several coins.  When I run the hopper test I get anywhere from 10 to 20 coins.  I feel like the coin out switch is working properly because the amount of coins on the display match what hopper pays out.  This hopper is very fast,not sure if maybe it's a brake isssue or not.
thanks
Bob

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 07:20:48 PM »
Bob, make sure the MPU has a sub-board at location A1 and that Dip Switch #6 is in the OFF position on that sub-board. That must be set OFF for standard hoppers.
If you change Dip positions a RAM clear must be performed after any change.
Can't understand how the hopper would run too fast unless somehow the voltage has been increased?

Jim

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2015, 12:13:16 PM »
Uniman, it did have the sub board and dip switch 6 is off.  I said hopper was running fast but maybe that is normal for Universal slots.  I checked voltage eo motor an it is 110v.
this machine had been working for several years with no issues, I found a dime wedged under the knife, I removed the dime, reset knife.
Thanks
Bob

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2015, 01:46:47 PM »
Only other thing I could suggest is lubricate the kicker mechanism. They can get stiff.

The kicker should energize when hopper starts and should de-energize when hopper power is off. The hopper may spin down after power down but the kicker being de-energized should deflect any extra coins back into hopper. As soon as proper number coins are dispensed the kicker should immediately de-energize and snap back to deflect any more coins.

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2015, 04:46:41 PM »
The customer found another hopper on the internet and ordered it.  I tried it out tonight and it has the same problem, the kicker does not pull in to allow coins to tray.  Can the problem be the MPU?  I feel kind of bad for the guy because he paid $100 plus $30 shipping so I need to do all I can to get it working.
thanks
Bob

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2015, 06:58:04 PM »
There might be a transistor on the board that is tied to the solenoid with the issue. I would check for that. Not really a Universal person so this is only an idea I have developed from solid state pins I have workd on that are controlled by a drive transistor.
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2015, 07:07:11 PM »
I was thinking that hoppers with a brake will not have the coin kicker. The hopper brake came along later as an improvement and eliminated the need for the coin kicker. Is that right?

below is some info about the Universal self-test program for the hopper, the output ports and input ports tests (self-test steps 4-7).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 12:36:25 AM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2015, 07:46:13 PM »
...  This hopper is very fast,not sure if maybe it's a brake isssue or not....

It looks like the hopper dispensing speed does vary and can be quite fast in some cases. They used a high speed hopper in some machines, it is up to 3 times faster than a normal hopper.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 09:38:31 PM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2015, 08:32:14 PM »
The hopper spins but the kicker never pulls in so no coins are dispensed.  I have tested the solenoid by connecting it to a 110v test plug and it pulled in as it should.  The kicker works freely by hand.  What activated the solenoild? 
Thanks
Bob
Here is a Universal slot machine manual, hopefully it will cover the machine you are dealing with.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 12:37:03 AM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2015, 08:57:50 PM »
Bob, make sure the MPU has a sub-board at location A1 and that Dip Switch #6 is in the OFF position on that sub-board. That must be set OFF for standard hoppers.
If you change Dip positions a RAM clear must be performed after any change.
Can't understand how the hopper would run too fast unless somehow the voltage has been increased?

Jim

Since dipswitch #6 should be OFF with a standard hopper does that mean if the machine had a high speed hopper then dipswitch #6 should be ON ??
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 09:36:30 PM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2015, 05:47:11 PM »
New hopper and same result means most likely mpu board Bob. I thought Jim's idea of wiring solenoid to motor power would work, but after looking at schematics maybe not.

The motor and solenoid have two seperate outputs from the mpu, so there may be a timing issue that prevented both from coming from the same output? Seems like there would be one relay instead of two on the hopper board if this method would work.

Looking at the output schematics, looks like the output to the solenoid comes from capacitor C6 to a Hex inverter chip 9D, in pin 1, out pin 2. Capacitor C6 is found at location G3.
Looks like hopper motor is triggered by C7 and also through Hex inverter 9D thru pins 13 and 12.
I will post a pic of the schematic when my phone charges up, dead right now. Maybe someone with board repair knowledge can chime in with some help. I'm no board repairman myself so right now I'm guessing!

I would try reseating Dip #6 on the daughter board (turn ON and back OFF) and then perform a reset while powering up the machine. If problem still there, mpu board has problem. Maybe replacing C6 might fix problem?

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2015, 06:26:04 PM »
Bob, it gets a bit more complicated. The capacitors C6 and C7 are part of a timing circuit that uses a dual timer, 3G. Also resistor R10 is involved.

Attached are two schematics. One is output circuit and other is the dual timer (3G). The dual timer is a Texas NE556N.
The 9D in the output is a Texas SN7406N (Hex inverter)

Can any board repair fellas out there give a logical approach to this problem?  Hopper motor runs but solenoid will not engage. (two different hoppers used, solenoid tested in first hopper and was ok)


(Bob, I would trade the new hopper for a mpu.)

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2015, 09:38:40 PM »
Actually the C6 and C7 on the drawing refers to a couple of output control signals, not capacitors. That's just the name Universal called these control signals. Since there are a bunch of output signals they named them with a 2 character codename, like 72, B7, C3, etc. If you look at all of them coming out of the 74LS259 chips they do follow a certain sequence in naming pattern.

All of these output signals on the mpu come from all those 74LS259 ics over on the leftside of the drawing. These logic signals will be either high or low depending on what the cpu needs to do to control something like a solenoid, a light, whatever. The C6 output signal comes from pin 9 of ic 6H and the output signal C7 comes from pin 9 of ic 7H. These output control signals go to the ic at 9D which is an inverter logic gate. So a high level coming in gets changed to a low level and vice-versa. You can see that output C7 connects to ic 9D pin 13 while output C6 connects to ic 9D pin 1. C7 controls the hopper motor, C6 controls the hopper solenoid.

You'd think they could have used just one signal to control both things since in most (or all??) situations when the hopper motor runs you also want the hopper solenoid to move the coin kicker out of the way. And when the hopper motor shuts off you want the coin kicker solenoid to move into position to not let any coins dispense. But maybe sometimes they wanted the cpu to be able to run the hopper motor while keeping the coin kicker in position, like to stir the coins without dispensing any? Or some other reason. Just a guess. Also, in the self-test you can test these 2 output controls individually, so for some reason they wanted to keep these 2 output control signals separate. Maybe the more experienced folks here can think of why the hopper motor might want to run independently of the coin kicker solenoid. 

Anyway, it could be that the 7406 chip at mpu location 9D is bad and that's why the hopper solenoid isn't getting controlled. Of course there could be other things causing the hopper solenoid not to work, like a broken or burned open trace or a bad 74LS259 chip at location 6H where the control signal originates.

The other problem of the hopper paying out more coins than it should is puzzling since if the coin kicker moves into position as soon as the hopper motor loses power then no extra coins should be dispensed. But it was noticed that the hopper runs really fast, so if it was one of the high-speed hoppers that Universal used on some machines could the coins be coming out so fast that some extras ones get by before the coin kicker moves into position? The manual said the high-speed hoppers dispense coins 3 times the speed of the standard hopper.

UNIMAN- my copy of the Universal slot manual is a bad photocopy and I can't read it very well. Yours looks a lot more clear so you may want to find the same area's in my attached photos on your drawing to see it more clearly. In fact, if you can post or email your copy to me I could see it better, even the one page we are referencing.
 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 12:30:34 AM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2015, 09:43:17 AM »
Thanks for all the help Uniman and rokgpsman!!


Uniman I'd like to take you up on your offer to trade hopper for mpu, I'll send you a PM shortly.


thanks again guys.

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2015, 10:39:41 AM »
Please let us know how this ends up, I'm curious about the over-payout problem and what is causing it.

Good luck!


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