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Author Topic: kicker on hopper not working  (Read 12536 times)

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Offline UNIMAN

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2015, 06:06:32 PM »
Please let us know how this ends up, I'm curious about the over-payout problem and what is causing it.

Good luck!
Thank you for taking the time and posting the correct logic path. You can see how novice I am in this area! Appreciate the detailed explanation.  :yes:
The high speed hopper is red and plastic, and oh, yes, the dip #6 needs to be on for high speed hopper as it uses an optic for counting coins and not a switch like the standard hopper does. Also the high speed hopper has a brake and a reverse. Bob's hopper is a standard hopper as pictured at beginning of thread. No brake. Also, output tests for hopper solenoid and hopper motor are "disabled for type-2 programs". Any machine that has credits is a type-2 program. Only the earliest machines that had no credit meter and all wins payed out had type-1 programs. 
I do know that when you power up a Universal the hopper motor bumps like it's a self test. This is the only logical reason I can think of why the two outputs are separate.

CORRECTION: Standard Hopper uses a GREY optic, High Speed hopper uses a small black optic similar to Holey Hoppers used in Ultra Series Uni's.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:03:42 PM by UNIMAN »

Offline rokgpsman

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2015, 06:24:54 PM »
I know you're a lot more familiar with these machines than I am, I wanted to help with that C6 & C7 logic signal stuff to keep troubleshooting going in the right direction.

I didn't recognize the hopper photo as being a standard one and was trying to think of why all the extra coins would come out during play and during selftest. I thought if it was a high speed hopper maybe the extra coins were slipping by somehow because of the 3 times faster payout.

There is likely some reason they have the 2 different controls for hopper motor and hopper coin kicker solenoid since it would be simpler to just use one control line for both. This pretty much means that there are times when they want the machine to do one without the other, or they thought they would and designed it in but never implemented it. I thought maybe they stir the coins now and then to prevent jamups in the hopper, like every 50th play or something. To stir they'd want to activate the motor but leave the coin kicker solenoid off so it would prevent coins getting dispensed accidentally. In a case like that they'd need one control line to be on while the other was off. You mentioned that the hopper motor runs for just a second during machine powerup, they'd want the coin kicker to stay in place then to keep any coins from coming out, so as you say that's a good reason right there for having 2 different control lines.

Since the hopper he has is definitely a standard speed hopper then what could cause all the extra coins to come out? If the coin counting switch is working right then the mpu should shutoff the hopper motor and the coin kicker should snap back in place to kick the extra coins back into hopper while the hopper motor spins down. He even tried wiring the coin kicker solenoid to the motor wires to ensure that the coin kicker snaps back when the motor powers down at end of payoff.

From what he said the number of coins dispensed matches what the coins paid meter says, so during selftest why doesn't mpu cut off hopper after 10 coins instead of waiting until 20 coins come out? That's what has me puzzled. If dipswitch #6 was bad and was telling the mpu the hopper was a high speed one (when it really was a standard hopper) and the mpu was therefore expecting to use the optical coin counting switch I wonder if that would cause this problem? Have you tried setting dipswitch #6 to ON with a machine that had a standard hopper to see how it handles coin counting and dispensing? I couldn't find any info about dipswitch #6 in the old manual I have.

If he swaps the mpu and it does fix the problem then it will be interesting to know what was wrong with the mpu.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 06:57:17 PM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2015, 06:58:01 PM »
Yes, it is puzzling. I have seen hoppers that haven't been used in awhile have the solenoids stick and not return or return slowly. A little wd40 fixes that problem. But a good solenoid(s) not engaging has me looking at the daughter board at location 1A first. This board has eight dips that determine different things. And to make it more complicated, it depends on what System chip # you are using. Most, if not all use dip #6 for hopper ID. But since the hopper runs and it counts coins it does look like daughter board is ok.

Here's another thought, something I've experienced. The Uni MPU plugs into two edge connectors that have an array of wires on the backside. To allow heat to leave the lower area of the machine Universal notched out the two back corners and the same at the top box. Loose little screws that are left in top box or reel area can drop in behind the edge connectors when the machine is moved. I've had a machine where a screw shorted the machine. After that I always removed the mpu rack and examined behind the edge connector for any loose screws when I got a new machine. There's very little exposed contacts back there but it can happen. WORTH A LOOK BOB!

Offline rokgpsman

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2015, 07:05:40 PM »
What would happen on a machine that had a standard hopper but dipsw #6 was in the wrong position (or was bad)? Would the machine dispense the wrong number of coins? With dipsw #6 on then mpu expects the hopper optic switch to count coins but that wouldn't happen with a standard hopper installed.
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2015, 08:09:48 PM »
What would happen on a machine that had a standard hopper but dipsw #6 was in the wrong position (or was bad)? Would the machine dispense the wrong number of coins? With dipsw #6 on then mpu expects the hopper optic switch to count coins but that wouldn't happen with a standard hopper installed.
Been a long time since I seen this. I believe error 21 comes right up.

What happens is this; at startup the machines System chip poles the location 1A. 1A is actually meant for a 24-pin eprom. But since they want adjustable settings a daughter board with 24 pins sits at this position and has dip switches and chips that mimic an eprom. The System chip looks for a binary 0 or 1 at eight locations (the eight dip switches) and I believe OFF is a 1 and ON is a zero in the program. Funny, because there is a test to display the dip settings and the display has ON as a 1and OFF as a zero. Anyways, the System Chip will see dip #6 as On or OFF and then direct one of two routines into the RAM memory. One for standard hopper and another for high speed hopper. From then on it uses that routine. So if you change type of hopper and change the dip switch it will not work until you perform a reset, aka clear the RAM. This makes the System Chip look again and load the proper routine.
I'm going to bring a machine out of storage this weekend, non currently at the house now, and I'll try setting it ON with a standard hopper and see.

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2015, 09:02:07 PM »
Thanks for that explanation and for making the dipsw #6 test, looking forward to what you find out. Since Bob said this machine was working ok prior to these problems and they didn't get any error messages when the over-payout happened then a faulty dipswitch may not be the problem.

I assume the ram where the hopper type and other data is stored is in the ram that's battery powered when the machine is turned off. If the battery is disconnected or goes dead and this ram gets corrupted does the machine require a clear procedure and how is the clear procedure done (switch inside the machine, or insert a clear chip in a socket on mpu??) I'll take a look at that manual and see what I can find.   :wave:
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 11:21:58 PM by rokgpsman »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2015, 09:09:21 PM »
.... Also, output tests for hopper solenoid and hopper motor are "disabled for type-2 programs". Any machine that has credits is a type-2
I do know that when you power up a Universal the hopper motor bumps like it's a self test. This is the only logical reason I can think of why the two outputs are separate.

Do the machines that are "Type 2" also do the hopper motor bump on startup or is it only done on the older "Type 1" machines? (since the Type 2 machines have the hopper motor test disabled I was thinking they may not do the motor bump on machine power up).
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2015, 06:31:27 AM »
here is the schematic for the hopper relay board, both the standard and the hi- speed.     Jim



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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2015, 04:07:06 PM »
.... Also, output tests for hopper solenoid and hopper motor are "disabled for type-2 programs". Any machine that has credits is a type-2
I do know that when you power up a Universal the hopper motor bumps like it's a self test. This is the only logical reason I can think of why the two outputs are separate.

Do the machines that are "Type 2" also do the hopper motor bump on startup or is it only done on the older "Type 1" machines? (since the Type 2 machines have the hopper motor test disabled I was thinking they may not do the motor bump on machine power up).
I've never worked on or looked at a Type 1 game in a board. They would have to be the earliest models with no credit meter. All games from 1986-on are type 2. The type 2's have the hopper bump at startup. Not really sure why the hopper tests are disabled? CORRECTION: No hopper bump!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:05:36 PM by UNIMAN »

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2015, 04:54:17 PM »
WOW, I'm really losing it. Put my machines in storage for almost two years and I'm forgetting everything!.
Ok, made two corrections to this thread. First, standard hopper uses a grey optic, not a switch. Believe Ashi-Sieko hoppers use a switch.
2nd, there is no bump at startup. I'm thinking it is the Ultra Series that bumps. God I hope so or I'm really losing it!  :rotfl:

Brought home my older Uni and refreshed my memory! And Rokgpsman, you were on to something!
Here's what I did;
-Put in standard hopper with daughter board dip #6 ON (for high speed hopper) and immediately got a 31 TILT (overpay) error on startup.
-No hopper connected with dip #6 ON and same results, error 31 at startup.
-Put in High Speed Hopper and set dip #6 OFF (for standard) and had same results, error 31 at startup. (Note: RAM clear also performed at every startup)
-Set dip #6 OFF (for standard) with no hopper connected and no errors at startup. Knew this would happen as I've done it before. Strange there is no error as grey optic is disconnected??

Now the good stuff;
Started machine and performed RAM clear with no daughter board and standard hopper. Machine starts fine. But guess what happened when I performed the #4 hopper test?
The hopper motor ran and the solenoid NEVER moved!!!! Sound familiar?

Ok Bob, this what you should do next. You need to post the dip settings on both the 4-pac dip on the main board (most likely all OFF) and post the dips on the 8-pac on the daughter board.
Then you need to perform, what I call, secondary test #6. Now this test is a little tricky as you have to press the RAM reset button on the mpu at the same time you press the green test switch six times. Actually, press the RAM reset and hold it in and then press the green test button with your other hand six times, wait about four seconds before releasing the RAM reset button.Best to unplug and remove the hopper for easy access to the RAM reset button.
Then look at the COINS PLAYED and WIN METER
The COINS PLAYED will cycle 1, then, 2,3, and back to 1 again. When it gets to 1, start writing down the last four numbers in the WIN METER, and then again when 2 is displayed in the COINS PLAYED, and again when 3 is displayed in the COINS PLAYED. It cycles over and over so verify what you wrote down.
Should look like this;
WIN METER   6_0000    (represents 4-pac on main board)
COINS PLAYED      1

WIN METER   6_0010    (represents 1-4 dips on daughter board 8-pac)
COINS PLAYED       2

WIN METER   6_0001    (represents 5-8 dips on daughter board 8-pac)
COINS PLAYED        3
Now, your 0's and 1's may be different as I do not know your dip settings, this is just an example.

This test will show what the MPU actually is seeing. If the daughter board is faulty or maybe not plugged in right the numbers won't match.
I tested mine with no daughter board and I got 1100 and 0011 on #2 and #3, so it did show something, but the daughter board I had removed before the test was 1111 0001.

Jim
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 05:53:39 PM by UNIMAN »

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2015, 06:03:07 PM »
Here is an example of dip settings. You won't find these in the manual, they came later with each system chip release. This one is pretty much the norm.
The newest system chip versions like 9003 I don't have. Pretty sure they are basically the same as this one.
One thing I noticed is the game I have in the house now has a 8933.0041 system chip. The attached page shows it is for all 8933's. Yet dip #7 is for handle optics, grey or black. My machine has grey optics and it doesn't matter what I set dip 7 at, the handle always work. Most other system chips have dip 7 not used. Guess my version of 8933, 0041 does not use dip 7. All other dips work as listed.


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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2015, 06:06:36 PM »
Those are good findings, thanks for going to that time & trouble. Are you suspecting that the hopper's optic sensor signal to the mpu is not getting processed right? Or that something is mis-matched between the type of hopper optics and the mpu dipswitch settings?

If I understand right, if the daughter board is not installed or not connected properly the hopper coin kicker solenoid will not work, but the hopper motor still does work. Does not having the daughter board installed turn the mpu back into a Type 1 machine, even though mpu has a newer system rom?
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2015, 06:44:33 PM »
Those are good findings, thanks for going to that time & trouble. Are you suspecting that the hopper's optic sensor signal to the mpu is not getting processed right? Or that something is mis-matched between the type of hopper optics and the mpu dipswitch settings?
No. Without the daughterboard the machine appears to use default settings. The readings I got were 1100 (dips 1-4), these first four settings mean a credit meter limit of 239 and you must press the cashout button prior to play to hold wins as credits(dip4), otherwise all wins immediately paid by hopper. The next four readings, (dips 5-8) were 0011.
These four mean the coin-in optics are grey, standard hopper, handle optics black, although I found this dip not used on my machine, and Max bet starts reels. (see previous dip setting attachment)
So even though set for standard hopper, the solenoid will not work. That's strange.
Another interesting fact. I thought the system chip read the daughter board at ram clear startup only. Reason I believed that was if you set dip6 to ON with standard hopper after ram clear, it tilts error 31 as it should. If then I reset dip6 to OFF with standard hopper, turn on the machine with no ram clear, it still tilts thinking dip6 is still on.
But I found today if I remove the daughter board and start the machine with no ram clear, the credit limit changes (use test 9 for credit limit) and I have dip4 ON so that it is always in credit mode. As soon as I pull the daughter board it becomes credit selectable. So, the program is looking at the daughter board all the time. Seems only some info going to ram memory, not all.
For some reason the daughter board has to be there for the solenoid to work.

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2015, 06:49:19 PM »

If I understand right, if the daughter board is not installed or not connected properly the hopper coin kicker solenoid will not work, but the hopper motor still does work. Does not having the daughter board installed turn the mpu back into a Type 1 machine, even though mpu has a newer system rom?
That seems to be the case.

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2015, 07:13:41 PM »
Is this the normal, usual Universal mpu board (photo below)? Did they make different versions of the daughter boards?

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2015, 08:04:55 PM »
Is this the normal, usual Universal mpu board (photo below)? Did they make different versions of the daughter boards?


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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2015, 08:09:09 PM »
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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2015, 04:44:13 AM »
Guys thanks for all you time and efforts helping with this repair.  I'm out of town until Friday the 24th.  I'll report in when I get a chance to run the test Uniman outlined.
Thanks again,
Bob

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2015, 07:26:23 AM »
4 Pac dip switches are all OFF
Daughter Board switches 3 & 8 ON all others OFF


ran secondary test and results are the same as UNIMAN's (6_0000 coins played 1, 6_0010 coins played 2, 6_0001 coins played 3.


Hope this helps out.


thanks
Bob

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Re: kicker on hopper not working
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2015, 09:59:18 AM »
4 Pac dip switches are all OFF
Daughter Board switches 3 & 8 ON all others OFF


ran secondary test and results are the same as UNIMAN's (6_0000 coins played 1, 6_0010 coins played 2, 6_0001 coins played 3.


Hope this helps out.


thanks
Bob


Well, that says the mpu is seeing the daughterboard just fine.
Only two possibilites left. Either mpu board has problem or the last possibilty is connection not being made.  To check connection not being made unplug the hopper. On the connector coming down to the hopper carefully inspect the yellow wire. Look in the connector and make sure it isn't pushed back, compare it to the others. There is another connector about 12" up, check that one too. You can do a continuity check by ohming it between the hopper connector-yellow wire to the edge connector the mpu board plugs into. Bottom connector, 15 up, on right.
Since you have tested two different hoppers with same results, I'm ruling out problem in the hopper.

Meanwhile, I'm testing the four spare boards I have. Will let you know,

Jim

 

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