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Author Topic: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?  (Read 1537 times)

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Offline CommTech

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My local State (NY) racetrack casino is a CLASS 2 only slot facility. The majority of all of the slot games are exactly the same games as the Slot 3 games. They play exactly the same way, bonuses and all. NO bingo cards or any other signs of a Class 2 machine.
So without a Random Number Generator built into these machines, how are wins triggered? What causes the reels to stop randomly on non-winning pays? When you press the spin button on a Class 2 machine, are you actually polling the central server for the winning (or losing) 'Lottery ticket'? If you pull a 'Winning Ticket' how is the winning amount determined (considering you can be playing a low or high denomination amount) ... is it a set winning dollar amount or a multiple of your bet amount?
I heard that with Class 2 slots you are actually playing against other players ... how does that work?  In a Class 2 casino, If you just bet the minimum all the time, would you have the same chance of winning as anyone else in the casino? Are there different pools (from the central server) of wins based on the denomination bet? If so, would you improve your odds of hitting a win by betting an odd amount (not max or min), assuming most people would be betting Max or min bet?  :Scratch-Head:

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2022, 06:29:37 PM »
Well..for one thing, Class II slots should have a small bingo card displayed on a screen somewhere to show you what’s happening with the server.
There must be some sort of loophole law in your area if there isn't a bingo card displayed.
And Yes....Class 2 slots are server-based bingo games.
They do NOT need an RNG chip and do NOT care about what denomination you bet.

Also, you'd think that if you were the only one in the whole casino playing a Class II game that you would win EVERY game??
haha...yeah right. :rotfl: :24:

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2022, 07:44:40 PM »
I'd like to get a VGT RED game 'Hunt for Neptune's Gold' but they are Class II cabinets. I got this off the net"

I pushed the spin button but the machine paused. Why?

One of the key specificities of Class II is that at least two players have to be active for a game to proceed. Perhaps, you never thought of this rule playing at larger casinos, but at less crowded places (especially in the mornings when things are slow), you easily could be the only one spinning the reels.

In this case, a Class II machine will wait for another punter to join your server-based adventure, and as a result, pause.
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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2022, 09:48:30 AM »
Regardless of the slot machine - reel or video - the cabinet is just a fancy display too aimed at keeping you playing.
On a 3 reel slot - 3 numbers are drawn the moment you hit the spin button.
From that point the slot could easily say WIN or LOSE - which is absolutely no fun, and spit out a result as fast as you could feed it money.
So instead reels (controlled by stepper motors) are spun with the steppers stopping at the 3 numbers that were previously determined.
If this is a nudge game like double diamond deluxe that bumps up or down based on the direction of the diamond this is just a fancy way of getting to the same result. - truly there is no nudge it just stops momentarily in the wrong spot and then corrects.
Once again this is just all for presentation purposes to make the game draw you in to spend more money.

A lot of study has been done on the phycology of slots. In 1980 IGT determined that $20 should last about 20 min. That was the sweet spot. If the player was fleeced of the $20 in a shorter time they were less likely to insert the next $20 and if it was longer they got bored and cashed out before spending the entire $20.

I am sure with inflation (and greed) these numbers have changed.

Harrahs CEO was once quoted that he would never have a penny slot on the premise as it cheapens up the place. This was at the time when people would insert 3 pennies as coins and spin the wheels. Fast forward to 2022 penny slots are everywhere but the phycological change is that mon and dad from the motorhome set would NEVER play a 3 x 25c game (75c),  but are now fine playing a penny slot with 10 coins per line and 15 lines (1.50).

In my basement I run my slots off of tokens. No money. I put out a coin bucket out full of slot tokens, friends will pick up a bucket - play 3 or 4 games, put it down and move on. However if I give them a bucket with a roll of slot tokens (I have a coin rolling machine) they will crack the roll, play until its gone, then come back looking for another roll of coins - So what's the difference ?? I am of the opinion is that its the sense of loss. They had a finite known quantity of tokens akin to a roll of quarters, vs an unknown amount that has no value. All very interesting human behavior.

Getting back to the question at hand
On our classic slot machine there is NEVER a guaranteed winner.
3 numbers are pulled from the RNG - statistically if the machine is played 10million times it "should" pay back within +/- .05% of the stated payback, but this is in no way guaranteed. It is like flipping a coin 10 times and having it come up all as heads, flip it 100times and this will "likely" change. Flip it 10mm times and you will probably comeback to something like 50/50. Just pure statistics. However it could be flipped as 10million heads, just highly unlikely.

The difference with the Class II is that they force the %% payback across all platforms, and in order to do that they use a server to manage it rather than at the individual slot level.  You will also observe that they do not have progressive payouts. In a traditional casino Progressives are used as a marketing tool with each play contributing a very small amount to a top win. It doesn't change the odds of winning or losing but it does alter the %% payback. The casino gets to write this amount off as marketing, but sadly the punter is still taxed on his win.


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Offline marcbollinger

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2022, 10:39:36 AM »
Regardless of the slot machine - reel or video - the cabinet is just a fancy display too aimed at keeping you playing.
On a 3 reel slot - 3 numbers are drawn the moment you hit the spin button.
From that point the slot could easily say WIN or LOSE - which is absolutely no fun, and spit out a result as fast as you could feed it money.
So instead reels (controlled by stepper motors) are spun with the steppers stopping at the 3 numbers that were previously determined.
If this is a nudge game like double diamond deluxe that bumps up or down based on the direction of the diamond this is just a fancy way of getting to the same result. - truly there is no nudge it just stops momentarily in the wrong spot and then corrects.
Once again this is just all for presentation purposes to make the game draw you in to spend more money.

A lot of study has been done on the phycology of slots. In 1980 IGT determined that $20 should last about 20 min. That was the sweet spot. If the player was fleeced of the $20 in a shorter time they were less likely to insert the next $20 and if it was longer they got bored and cashed out before spending the entire $20.

I am sure with inflation (and greed) these numbers have changed.

Harrahs CEO was once quoted that he would never have a penny slot on the premise as it cheapens up the place. This was at the time when people would insert 3 pennies as coins and spin the wheels. Fast forward to 2022 penny slots are everywhere but the phycological change is that mon and dad from the motorhome set would NEVER play a 3 x 25c game (75c),  but are now fine playing a penny slot with 10 coins per line and 15 lines (1.50).

In my basement I run my slots off of tokens. No money. I put out a coin bucket out full of slot tokens, friends will pick up a bucket - play 3 or 4 games, put it down and move on. However if I give them a bucket with a roll of slot tokens (I have a coin rolling machine) they will crack the roll, play until its gone, then come back looking for another roll of coins - So what's the difference ?? I am of the opinion is that its the sense of loss. They had a finite known quantity of tokens akin to a roll of quarters, vs an unknown amount that has no value. All very interesting human behavior.

Getting back to the question at hand
On our classic slot machine there is NEVER a guaranteed winner.
3 numbers are pulled from the RNG - statistically if the machine is played 10million times it "should" pay back within +/- .05% of the stated payback, but this is in no way guaranteed. It is like flipping a coin 10 times and having it come up all as heads, flip it 100times and this will "likely" change. Flip it 10mm times and you will probably comeback to something like 50/50. Just pure statistics. However it could be flipped as 10million heads, just highly unlikely.

The difference with the Class II is that they force the %% payback across all platforms, and in order to do that they use a server to manage it rather than at the individual slot level.  You will also observe that they do not have progressive payouts. In a traditional casino Progressives are used as a marketing tool with each play contributing a very small amount to a top win. It doesn't change the odds of winning or losing but it does alter the %% payback. The casino gets to write this amount off as marketing, but sadly the punter is still taxed on his win.

Something that comes up a lot is the notion that Class 3 facilities can run off a central server to control and change payback %. I've always said this is false, and likely the person asking getting confused with the difference between Class 2 and 3. Any input on that?

Also, to this day, even on Class 3 machines, a payback % change should still require elevated privileges at the machine itself (eKey, dongle, chip procedure, whatever) right? I've heard that a central server can SIGNAL the change to take place, but there still has to be someone physically at the machine to accept this change.

So many myths and rumors about this out there.

Marc

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2022, 11:53:13 AM »
Gaming regulations change by state/country and location, but the majority follow Nevada rules as its well documented and cheaper than building and maintaining your own regulations from scratch.

Anytime you make a change to a machine its a big deal to the Nevada gaming regulators.
The fundamentals of a slot is that its %% payback is proven by running 10mm spins 3 times and it has to have a variance of less than .01% after each run. So lets assume a slot has been in the casino for 7mths - even with heavy play it is unlikely to have gone through 10mm spins. This means that a machine that is designed to have paid out 96.5% may have paid out only 76% or maybe it has paid 102%.

SO if the casino is changing the theme or wants to change the %%.  it has to account for what the payback has actually been to the gaming regulators and then a profitability estimate is calculated between the actual and predicted payback so that the anticipated tax on the profits can be paid to the gaming board.  The casinos have to pay %% tax for each machine they have regardless of profitability and they have to pay another %% based on profit.  Its always about the money and Uncle Sam and his minions get paid first.

The first thing you need to know is that the gaming board is a government run bureaucratic entity. So regulators aren't exactly hanging around or can/will come when you want to change the game. On occasion they show up when they are least wanted and get in the way of normal casino operations. If there is an issue with the machine. They have the casino turn it off, wrap tape around it and basically put it out of service until they feel like coming out. This costs the casino money. 

From a Casino perspective a mult-theme slots are more popular because if you have a dud theme you simply promote the other themes on it without having to get a regulator involved. No touchy....buy a couple of light up signs or back lit plexy, print some promotional do not disturb signs to drive interest in what they want to promote.

The centrally controlled slots are one step above this since you can have one regulator out and change 30 platforms from a central location. Quick and easy but still well supervised. The manufacturers have all sorts of built in controls to prevent the casino from being able to change things on the fly. Just like the 10mm spin test to prove to the regulators that the game meets its %% payback - they have to get these centrally controlled systems past the regulators as well before they would even be allowed into the casino. Some of the auditing would be similar to a computer security system so you would who logged in, when, what was changed etc. There would be no way for the casino to hide this from the regulators. Even someone going in to look at the %% info would be audited.

Putting this into perspective..... My old S+ Circa 1980 with a SP731 game chip and matching reel theme chip had a choice of 8 different win theme songs. In 1990 this chip was mandated to be updated to a 1271 - the theme didn't change, the percentage payback didn't change but win music was gone and about 36 new accounting fields were added to track information regarding the slot. This "helped" to control the mafia skim....










 
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Offline marcbollinger

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 12:15:12 PM »
Interesting topic for sure. I know all about the regulation, which explains why chips have tamper proof tape over it, doors to brain boxes have tamper proof tape, etc. Regulators want to know if someone was in there monkeying with things without their knowledge.

So, centrally controlled systems are just a way to automate the auditing further - with more detail being captured (who, what, when, where, why).

I've been trying for years, with extreme exhaustion, to get people to understand that casinos do not change payback % on a whim or to meet some kind of revenue goal. The simple fact (like you mentioned) that millions of spins are required for that percentage to be balanced or realized is proof of this. The payback % is a way that manufacturers can state how a game will perform over time. They set it once, put it on the floor and leave it alone. If it underperforms (less butts in the chair), then they swap out the game or move it to another location where it might get more traffic.

On the topic of Class2/3, it's my understanding that all class 3 machines have the RNG self-contained in the unit. There is not a central server that houses the RNG and controls the machines. That is for the Class 2 bingo environment, where the Class 2 machines are basically thin clients.

People are always trying to explain why they have winning and losing sessions with slots. But, they go for the myths of "machines being tightened" or "loosened" instead of what is actually going on, which is variance and volatility.

I just always wondered if maybe there have been changes in the industry since I was in it. And seems that maybe it's become easier to change payback %, but it's still not something that is done often, if ever because of the regulations still in place and the simple fact that it's not really necessary.

Marc

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2022, 02:06:43 PM »
The % payback is based on the probability of certain combinations matching what the RNG picks
- The RNG doesn't change regardless of the %% payback. What changes is the list of matching combinations.

On a 3 wheel slot the RNG picks 3 numbers. If they match one of the many winning combinations you get a payout.
The difference between a 95% payout and a 96,8% payout would be that there are more winning combinations.

You might have 8 symbols on a reel strip.
In actuality the virtual strip (software) might have 256 stops on it.
So adding in a couple of extra Cherry Cherry anything's -  doesn't change the paytable on the glass, doesn't change the reel strip.
There are just more winning combinations so the probability of hitting goes up.
The reels are simply a display mechanism and with the aid of a stepper motor they are told to stop at position 15 which might be a symbol or a blank spot in between.

In the centralized model these reel tables are simply downloaded to the slot albeit under the watchful eye of the regulator.

The key is that everything that happens on the slot can get audited on the slot as required by the regs. I would suspect that they would do a 2way audit and also look at what the central system says vs whats on the slot, vs whats on the screen

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2022, 06:49:20 PM »
The Racesinos in KY have a horse race running in the background instead of bingo.

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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2022, 09:03:24 PM »
I have NEVER seen server based class III games anywhere I've been with a casino on it, doesn't mean they don't exist, but I've never seen one at all.  All the multigame capable slots I have seen have the games loaded locally on some sort of a local storage device (Hard drive, SSD, Flash memory).  When  I first saw an AVP Multi-game machine, I thought it was server based, until I bought one for home and found out they are just loaded on machine's hard drive.  To my knowledge, the only central anything on class III casinos is the player tracking, accounting and security links.  There may come a time when class III may become something something like a Video Lottery Terminal (Class II), where the machine is basically a front end.  Frankly I'm shocked it hasn't already happened as gaming manufacturers already have an "online" slot platform that is supposed to be based off an RNG, like the ones you play on your smart phones.  It would make the hardware on the other side be nothing more than a PC dumb terminal, much cheaper and easier to maintain, but a catastrophic server failure would bring you down to your knees.
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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2022, 05:18:07 PM »
...but a catastrophic server failure would bring you down to your knees.

The answer to this is below!  A lil' disclaimer on the reel glass...:rotfl: ...>>>
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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2022, 06:52:50 PM »
Rick is absolutely right.
Part of the class 3 definition is that everything must run on the machine completely independent.
A server could be used to download games onto the slots but in the advent of a server failure it would have no impact.
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Re: How do CLASS 2 slot machines work without a Random Number Generator?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2022, 10:51:29 PM »
Well..for one thing, Class II slots should have a small bingo card displayed on a screen somewhere to show you what’s happening with the server.
There must be some sort of loophole law in your area if there isn't a bingo card displayed.
And Yes....Class 2 slots are server-based bingo games.
They do NOT need an RNG chip and do NOT care about what denomination you bet.

Also, you'd think that if you were the only one in the whole casino playing a Class II game that you would win EVERY game??
haha...yeah right. :rotfl: :24:

When i did my job interview at a classii casino. The head tech told my some interesting info about the games. They are playing player agains player. Your odds are better the fewer the people playing but still not 100%, what shows on the “reels” doesn’t mean shit they are just there to make players feel more comfortable, and on machines where you can disable the reels you tend to win more money with the reels off because the machine doesn’t have to play the animation and you can get into more games faster making smaller groupings.

 

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