New Life Games LLC
NLG Classified ads and White Sheet => Requests for PSRs, technical information. => Topic started by: shortrackskater on May 02, 2015, 06:29:37 PM
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I'm trying to use my new EasyPRO 80B. I need to read a chip but to read a chip you need to know who makes it. There's rows of numbers and a big "i" on it. I assume that's an Intel but none of the rows of numbers match up with any chips listed. This is a game chip for a Bally Game maker that I'm trying to read, for educational purposes!
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Dude can't you get into something easier like "like stamp collecting" ? :Scratch-Head:
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Does the software that comes with the program have an icon labeled "ID".?
My GQ2 has that and I select ID and the software tells me what it is.
Logically you should not need to know who manufactured it for reading purposes. For writing to the eprom you should know as there are different voltages used to write depending on manufacture.
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Here's a link to a site showing this as an Intel 68x6048
http://cpushack.com/chippics/EPROM/27512/Intel68X6048-PI-A-A.html (http://cpushack.com/chippics/EPROM/27512/Intel68X6048-PI-A-A.html)
Kinda strange, I tried looking that number up in my eprom reader and I can't find a listing for it.
It's never let me down in it's list, it's pretty complete but maybe this is an oddball???
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I think it is the equivalent of a 27512 eprom. If you peel the label back some more do you find out that there is not a window for erasing? If no window then it isn't an eprom, would be a prom. But it probably does have a window. I think it is the same as a 27512 eprom but with custom part number markings by Intel for some reason. (Intel and AMD used to make chips for private label to IBM and they would mark them using the IBM specified part number).
If your eprom burner works with 27512 then you can set it for that and should be able to read it.
As to the topic name of your post, the manufacturer is Intel.
Below are a few of the popular chip manufacturer's logos.
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Yes, that is an oddball. Try looking for datasheet for it!! I did and couldn't find it.
Did find as posted it is 27512 compatible.
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Thanks everyone!
I just tried selecting INTEL 27512 and get "device ID don't match."
I also tried 275c12 and got the same thing...
My software doesn't have anything that says ID, that I can see.
It does have the window for erasing.
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Does your setup let you select manufacturer "IBM" ?
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Does your setup let you select manufacturer "IBM" ?
No IBM there... BUT I did just uncheck "Check ID's Valid" and it seemed to do something! I'm totally a newbie at this. I think it read the blackjack chip because I was able to save a hex file that was about 128kb... heck is that too small? I think I wrote that on the blank chip. I'm just going to stick it in and see if it works!
UPDATE:
FAIL!
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The 27512 chip is actually a 64kb x 8 bit wide memory. The "512" part of the part number refers to the total number of bits that are stored. Since most system organize the data into 8 bits then the number of stored data bytes is 64k.
Not sure why your programmed chip didn't work. When you read the 68X6048 chip you had your programmer set to 27512, right? Do you think the 27512 chip has the right speed rating?
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There was two selections D27C512 and D27S512
I think I picked the first one... I can try the second and see.
I'm still not understanding the steps of this "Easy" pro80B...it's not very easy to use, so far.
Oh... sorry... the file size was 184kb. I'm getting tired.
I also can't find any "erase" feature on this. Supposedly the 4 chips I bought were erased but I'm not sure. I'll try a different chip.
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On my programmer if I deselect the " check ID" then the checksum numbers won't match on burnt chips.
I'm fairly new to this also but with the chip you tested for working look at the chechsum numbers and make sure they match the originals.
There should be a spot in your program for looking at that.
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There was two selections D27C512 and D27S512
I think I picked the first one... I can try the second and see.
I'm still not understanding the steps of this "Easy" pro80B...it's not very easy to use, so far.
Oh... sorry... the file size was 184kb. I'm getting tired.
I also can't find any "erase" feature on this. Supposedly the 4 chips I bought were erased but I'm not sure. I'll try a different chip.
Since we believe that the 68X6048 is equivalent to a 27512 then the storage capacity of the chip is 64k. So when you read it with the programmer and save the file it should be 64k in size. When you save the file does your programmer software let you set the buffer size or some other parameter?
Your eproms you bought probably are erased because if they weren't your programmer should have given you an error. Unless it has "blank device check" disabled in the settings.
On an eprom with a window you can't erase them with the programmer, takes UV light shining thru the window for 20-30 minutes. The chips that are eeprom are the type that can be electrically erased. You would need to get a little UV eprom eraser to erase the eproms with windows.
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On my programmer if I deselect the " check ID" then the checksum numbers won't match on burnt chips.
I'm fairly new to this also but with the chip you tested for working look at the chechsum numbers and make sure they match the originals.
There should be a spot in your program for looking at that.
I'm kind of lost here... If I uncheck that ID box, it acts like it's reading the good chip. If I keep it selected, I get an error.
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There was two selections D27C512 and D27S512
I think I picked the first one... I can try the second and see.
I'm still not understanding the steps of this "Easy" pro80B...it's not very easy to use, so far.
Oh... sorry... the file size was 184kb. I'm getting tired.
I also can't find any "erase" feature on this. Supposedly the 4 chips I bought were erased but I'm not sure. I'll try a different chip.
Since we believe that the 68X6048 is equivalent to a 27512 then the storage capacity of the chip is 64k. So when you read it with the programmer and save the file it should be 64k in size.
Your eproms you bought probably are erased because if they weren't your programmer should have given you an error.
On an eprom with a window you can't erase them with the programmer, takes UV light shining thru the window for 20-30 minutes. The chips that are eeprom are the type that can be electrically erased. You would need to get a little UV eprom eraser to erase the eproms with windows.
They were supposed to be erased but the seller goofed up the order amount... I was supposed to get 9 and they only "could find 4" so they say.
I ordered that exact eraser a couple days ago from, where else, a Chinese ebay seller. I'm expecting to see it in a couple days! :rotfl:
Actually I've been getting stuff from China in usually under 10 days.
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On my programmer if I deselect the " check ID" then the checksum numbers won't match on burnt chips.
I'm fairly new to this also but with the chip you tested for working look at the chechsum numbers and make sure they match the originals.
There should be a spot in your program for looking at that.
I'm kind of lost here... If I uncheck that ID box, it acts like it's reading the good chip. If I keep it selected, I get an error.
I haven't used your particular programmer but the way they usually work is this: To avoid possibly damaging a chip the programmer reads the ID of the chip and checks to see if that info matches what you have selected as the chip manufacturer and part number before it does anything else. If it doesn't match it gives an error.
The programmer allows you to bypass that ID check if you want to, sometimes there are good reasons for doing so. When reading the chip it isn't very dangerous to the chip, it only applies power and ground to the chip then reads each memory location in the chip and stores that data in memory in your computer (or in the programmer on big commercial models). But when programming the chip the programmer has to apply the burn voltage to a certain pin and those voltages vary from chip to chip and with different manufacturers. That's why the programmer is careful about the ID.
Some programmers will read the chip ID and tell you what it is. If yours doesn't do that then you won't be able to read that 68X6048 chip unless you uncheck the box for verify ID, unless you somehow make it happy with the mfr and device number selection (Intel 27512 or other compatible setting). Do you have other device numbers in the programmer software that are similar to 27512, like 27512A ?
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There was two selections in reading the Intel chip - D27C512 and D27S512.
I have a feeling these just weren't erased. The seller stated "refurbished" but now I'm wondering. There's not much refurbishing to do on a pulled IC so I assumed it meant erasing.
What's that saying about "assume?" :rotfl:
I'm hoping those new chips will arrive soon so I can try this.
I put the Blackjack game chip back in and it works fine... :applause:
Can I just put those other chips out in the sunlight all day tomorrow? Would that erase them?
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There was two selections in reading the Intel chip - D27C512 and D27S512.
I have a feeling these just weren't erased. The seller stated "refurbished" but now I'm wondering. There's not much refurbishing to do on a pulled IC so I assumed it meant erasing.
What's that saying about "assume?" :rotfl:
I'm hoping those new chips will arrive soon so I can try this.
I put the Blackjack game chip back in and it works fine... :applause:
Can I just put those other chips out in the sunlight all day tomorrow? Would that erase them?
I don't think they would erase in sunlight until many weeks had passed. The UV is just too weak. We used to put them on the window sill at work for weeks just to see and finally gave up, even after 2 months the chips still had the data and the checksums verified ok. One of our engineers joked and said if those eproms erase that way then don't go outside because you'll vaporize.
I saw that on your programmer software on the top menu there is a choice called "Device". If you click on it there is a dropdown menu and the bottom choice says "Auto select eprom". Does that properly id your 68X6048 chip? You can try it with one of the 27512 eproms to see how that function works.
I was reading about your Easypro 80B software and it saves the eprom data to a file in a format with extra information, that is why the file size is more than 64kb.
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I put the other one back in my GM but I stuck in the "new" pulled Fairchild chip which is an FM27C512QE120 as this:
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Catalyst Semiconductor was (is??) an ic company out in California in the 1980's. Maybe they and Fairchild are related but I don't know why it would say 27128 instead of 27512.
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Just for the heck of it, I pulled out one of my GM chips from my box-O-chips and read it.
The chip says TMS JL
27C010A-15
Here's the detection reading
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TMS is the marking for Texas Instruments, often they also put a logo design that looks like the outline of the state of Texas. At least your programmer got the device pretty close (27010). Maybe that auto detect function doesn't work that well.
Do you have the latest version of the software for your programmer?
http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/mcumall_download.asp (http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/mcumall_download.asp)
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The next time you read an eprom before you save it to file change the file name from whatever.hex to whatever.bin and that should make the file the expected size. When you select Save in your programmer software a dialog box will popup, look for the dropdown menu in the dialog box that says "Save as type" and select .bin. And in the filename itself make the filename end with .bin
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mustangjeep asked earlier about the label on the top of your GM eprom 68X6048, does it have the checksum written on the label? If so you will be able to compare it after reading the chip and saving the data to a file. And if you use the file to burn another eprom you can verify the checksum is the same. Wish we knew the speed rating on the original chip, you need to use 27c512 eproms that are as fast or faster.
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Just a comment on erasing UV chips. You could leave them in direct sunlight without the window covered for months and they will not be erased. (Believe me I have tried it and I live in sunny FL) I do not understand why everyone gets so bent on covering the window because the "chip might get accidentally erased". From my experience the only thing that will erase a UV chip is a UV eprom eraser for 20-30 minutes under direct UV light from the eraser.
For what it's worth
Rich
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:thank_you:
I'll play again with this tomorrow and check on checksum. Gotta make $$$ today.
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Even though there is very little info on your 68X6048 eprom we know that it works ok in your slot machine. That means the cpu on your slot's mpu board can access it and read its contents. And the info we do have says that it is equivalent to a 27512 eprom. To me that means you should be able to install it in your eprom programmer and read its contents as a 27512, save those contents to a binary file and then program a 27c512 eprom with that binary file and have it work ok in you machine. If you have or can get the schematic drawing for your machine mpu board we can see for certain what the 68X6048 pinout is and verify that it matches with the 27512. Are there other eproms on that mpu board and are they the same 68X6048 part number?
As you've probably heard any eprom you program and install into the mpu board needs to have an access time (commonly called its speed rating) that is the same or faster than the original eprom. The speed rating is measured in nanoseconds, the lower the number the faster. So a -120 chip is faster than a -150. If we don't know the speed of that 68X6048 eprom maybe we can get an idea by other eproms on the mpu board. Or if other people have a similar mpu board maybe they know what speed their eproms are. With the age of your machine I'd think that a speed of -120 or faster would be fine but we'll see what others here say.
It will take a little time for you to get familiar with your EasyPro 80B programmer and learn the different features it has. Most hobbyists save the eprom contents as a binary (.bin) file to avoid problems with using the different hex formats. A binary file is a simple dump of the memory contents of the chip with no other formatting numbers or characters in the file. When you get your eprom eraser you can program and erase the 27c512 chip as much as you need and see how it works out.
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This is on my most recently purchased Game Maker. Most of the game chips on there have a "sticky sticker" on the glass so they're hard to peel off. Here's a screenshot of the game chip section of the MPU board.
I had to take a little break from life...I'm up in the mountains right now, sitting in a coffee shop near the old family cabin.
I'll be home tomorrow and I'll try reading my blackjack chip and saving as a bin file, and seeing if I can figure out this programmer. Of course I still can't do anything until I either get the new chip, which should arrive soon I hope.
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Enjoy your time off away from stuff, good to unwind now & then. My old monitor didn't display your coffee shop photo very well so I brightened the picture, it does look peaceful there. That isn't a bear or cougar area is it? [maybe cougars of the 2-legged variety] :garfield:
That screenshot showing the "P1" chip is a 32 pin chip, it is labeled a M628128 on the schematic portion you posted. An M628128 is a RAM chip, not an eprom, plus that 68X6048 eprom you've been working with is a 28 pin chip, so I don't think this is the right part of the schematic for your eprom. :Scratch-Head:
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Mountains are nice up here! It's a nice break from Orange County. It's still got a touch of winter here with the temps in the 40's at night still. Of course, there's NO winter in Southern California, other than the mountains.
Funny, you enhanced the part that I had intentionally darkened so the trees would show better! :rotfl: But the outdoor seating is nice too and thank you for "re-enhancing" that.
Ok that part I showed was just from the Bally GM manual schematic section at the end. I'm just assuming that any area where the game eeproms go, would be the same. This shows that I really don't know what I'm doing sometimes!
Let me look again at that schematic.
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Yep, I noticed when I brightened the shadows it overly lightened the trees and they didn't look near as good. I was trying to see if there was anyone else out there in that sitting area, but it looked pretty empty. There was a sign with something about "Patio Rules" so I guess they frown upon "Streaking" or bonfires in that area. :wave:
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Today someone posted a picture of their Game Maker mpu board. And in the socket for the P1 chip U78 is a 27c512 eprom. So, even though your schematic shows that U78 is a 32 pin M28128 RAM chip this board has a 28 pin 27c512 eprom in the socket. That means your board may be the same way and you did post the right portion of the schematic afterall. Notice how their P1 chip is installed in the lower 28 pins of the 32 pin socket.
This is interesting and confusing, but that's the way this week has been going.
PS> the eproms on their board have speeds (access time) of -120 to -200 so now we know what speed any eproms you program need to be (-200 or faster).
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:thank_you:
Well I'm completely lost on this EasyPRO 80B. I'm simply trying to READ a working game chip. I have no clue... I press READ and I get "Device ID don't match 89 fd 00"
Don't match what? It's a working eeprom.
The blank reeproms came in today and I'd love to use it! :banghead:
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Is ther PE some sort of manufacturer support somewhere? Online or printed manual? Did you Google your error? If these people have sold more than 10 units, there's gotta be someon having the same issue...
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Hi Roz!
This is bizarre... It just worked! I tried something different, put the chip in and had blackjack!
I have NO idea WTF I did though... going to retrace my steps here.
I remember I auto selected the "read" chip and did the same for the "write" chip... then I did something and something else and it did something and then said "success." GAH!
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Speaking as someone who quite literally have read in 1,000 of chips:
If you're ONLY trying to READ the data off the chip you can use a setting that's the same size. This is of course so the computer (game) PCBs doesn't have to care which specific manufacturer the chip is from, just the correct size. As an example this chip socket is 28 pin meant for a 27C512 then you can set your reader to (for example)
AMD AM27C512 or Texas Instruments TMS27C512 or any "basic" 27C512 you reader supports. Some readers will tell you there's a signature mismatch and allow you to continue.
If a chip is in the same pin count and general family you're ok. Examples of this are:
both the 27C512 (64K) and the 27C256 (32K) are the same 28 pin package.
If you read the 27C256 as a 27C512 you get the normal 32K data of the 27C256 followed by an addition repeat of said 32K of data. Basically a double sized dump of the data. Now if you read a 27C512 as a 27C256 you'll end up with the first 32K data of the 27C512 but will be miss the second half of the data as the resulting file will only be 32K in size.
This is because of the pin assignment of chip. A specific pin in a 27C512 is a switch to enable a higher 32K "bank" in the chip. The 27C256 has the same pin but it's not assigned to do anything.
This is even better illustrated by the 32 pin 27C0x0 chips:
27C010 - 1 Mb
27C020 - 2 Mb
27C040 - 4 Mb
27C080 - 8 Mb
So the 27C020 has 1 pin not used by the 27C010 which enables another 1Mb of data. The 27C040 has 1 pin that's not used on the 27C020 (which in turn means 2 pins not used by the 27C010) and has two 2Mb banks of data or four 1Mb banks (2 pins = 4 combos of ON / OFF for the pins). And so on for the 27C080.
Now you need to know what size you have and match with what size you read. All to common in the emulation community a chip has been read at the wrong size. So you end up with data double the size or missing a lot of data. It's pretty easy to read in chip size markings off an EPROM but bulk mass produced MASK roms don't always tell you which size they are.
The big issue is trying to read a chip that's completely different size and type. Then you run the risk of frying a chip as you can send power down the wrong leg of the chip and "POP" it's dead.
So why do programmers have all these different choices? It is really for PROGRAMMING the chip so the chip maintains it's built in ID signature. Most PCB boards now a days don't have a means to know the difference between chip brands. The important issue is the correct size and SPEED is also a consideration on recent PCBs. This is the access time of the chip, on older boards it's common to have or require 150ns access rate all the way down to 250ns (much slower). So if your board needs 150ns access and your old EPROM is 250ms when the board is ready to read info the chip isn't so the data read by the board may be corrupt. I use Winbond W27C512 chip on my IGT PE+ machines. They're faster then the old EPROMs and they are actually electronically erasable so I can program them and reprogram them as needed. And there cheap enough on eBay.
I hope this info has helped in some way.
Brian
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Here are some of my notes on identifying some EPROMS, I made-up a long time ago based on my cheaper burner.
24C16 Mother Board (8 Bit, 24 Pin, Accounting & configuration)
27C64 SS Reel Chip (8 Bit, 28 Pin)
27C256 VFD chip. (8 Bit, 28 Pin Use 27C512 use off set 8000? Check with CJ.)
27C512-90 SS Reel Chip (8 Bit, 28Pin, Use 27C512 use off set B= 0xC000 & size=0x2000)
27C512-90 SP Game chip (8 Bit, 28 Pin) “ “ “ “ “
27C801-10 GME 1 & 2 chips (8 Bit, 32 Pin, remove J3 jumper to J4 6 & 7 pins. Also
27C040, 27C080, 27C8001)
27C8001 GME 1 & 2 chips (8 Bit, 32 Pin also 27C040, 27C080 & 27C801) *
27C1001 Version Chip (8 Bit, 32 Pin, jurisdictional also 27C010-does not work!)*
27C2001 Mikohn Chip ( Bit, 32 Pin, also 27C020 is original number, CHAM2+)
27C4001-90 DBV 200 chip (8 Bit, 32 Pin)
27C4001-90 WBA 1B chips (8 Bit, 32 Pin)
27C4002 SBase chip (16 Bit, 40 Pin also 27C240, & 27C4069)* 27C4002 and 27C4096
are exactly the same. Use the same settings as 27C4002.
27C4002 Key chip (16 Bit, 40 Pin also 27C240, & 27C4069)*
27C4002 Ram Clear chip (16 Bit, 40 Pin also 27C240, & 27C4069)*
29F040B-90 Card Reader Chip (4 Bit, 32 Pin, used in Bally Mastercom 250)
PIC16C55A-047P Dem. Label (8 Bit, 28 Pin, 4MHz 512x12, one time programming)
* They are the same chip but different chip makers ID them differently. The speed is usually following the ID number. A -90 would be 90ns, -10= 100ns, -12 = 120ns, -15 = 150ns, 20=200ns and so on. Sometimes you may see the entire number like 150 or 200.
Hope this might help someone too.
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:hail: :hail:
:thank_you:
Thank you Brian and Ron for taking the time to write both posts out. That helped me immensely to get a better grasp on this stuff!