Bally 831-JPO registering a coin

[wizeguy]

I've been working on a Bally 831-JPO and I have resolved most of the issues, 

The issue I'm still having is it won't coin up when I hit the coin switch.

If I engage the green coil on the left hand side of the of the reel mech first,  it will allow me to add more credits and do a spin.
(See attached photo) 

Is there a manual, schematic or document that explains the coining up process ?

Thanks in advance Kevin

[wizeguy]

UPDATE:

I found a switch near the green coil that was open, but never closed.   I tweaked it so it would close and open. 

The game is now working but:
1. Game is playing without inserting coins
2. Coins lights (Multiple coins) are lighting 2 of the 3 lights
3. Game seems to be in 3 coin mode
4. "Insert Coin'" light doesn't go out. 

any ideas appreciated

[wolftalk]

UPDATE:

I found a switch near the green coil that was open, but never closed.   I tweaked it so it would close and open. 

The game is now working but:
1. Game is playing without inserting coins

interesting ... if the handle release relay was tripped, the game shouldn't pay out - probably.

831-JPO isn't a bally model number.  There were various models that were "jackpot only" like the lightning games (e.g. 831-ZE)

2. Coins lights (Multiple coins) are lighting 2 of the 3 lights

the lights are controlled by the line unit.  See if the wiper contacts are stopping between rivets when manually stepping/resetting the unit.  If it's just lighting 1st and second coin when the first coin is played, maybe time to clean the unit/contact plate so the wipers reset all the way.

3. Game seems to be in 3 coin mode

line unit reset happens when first coin is played after a spin.  There is a "open at zero" switch poking out over the white plastic ratchet/gear on the line unit that should be open at reset but closed at 1+ steps.  Probably has blue/red (21-1) and yellow/red (31-2) wires on the blades.

if suspect, jumper it closed and see what happens.

4. "Insert Coin'" light doesn't go out. 

that light should only turn off when the line unit has stepped up twice AND the coin relay has tripped.  On the line unit, it's another of the switches poking out over the ratchet and needs to open when the unit is stepped up to top step (twice).

[Pinballwizard55]

Check your payout relay on your hopper, there is a set of points that should be closed when relay is at rest and open during a payout, if open all the time no coin registering will occur. Good luck !

[wizeguy]

Is this a picture of the "Line Unit" located in the top of the game?  (See attached)

[DavidLee]

The contact that you adjusted is part of the coin relay switch stack.
This also controls in part the inset coin and coin accepted lights.

First check the bulb that’s not working.

Then check for continuity at every switch in latched and unlatched positions.
Also, a broken or disconnected wire could be the fault and rarely a cracked switch blade could be the problem.
Of course there’s problems caused by dirty contacts.

[wizeguy]

Thanks for all the ideas & feedback,  I'll post my results... Kevin

[wolftalk]

Is this a picture of the "Line Unit" located in the top of the game?  (See attached)

yup, that's the line unit.

in your picture, the wipers appear to be in the fully stepped-up position (3 lines enabled).  If you haven't pulled the handle, it's normal for coins to be rejected back to the tray.

if you have pulled the handle, then the coin relay should be latched (reset like you show in pic in post #1). 

most of your issues could be a misbehaving coin relay or switches out of adjustment on it.  Can you add another pic of the coin relay a little closer showing the switches.  If you can, email the highest possible resolution picture or video of the coin relay in both latched and tripped state to slotpics@cdyn.com.

to reiterate what david said, make sure the switches do something sensible when you manually trip and reset the coin relay.  Unfortunately, you won't see much deflection of the short blades on the coin relay after the contacts touch, but if you push on the long blade the mating short blade should immediately move.  If not, you have a gap and the switch is open even though it may look closed.

you can measure continuity, but use an ohmeter and look for almost zero ohms.  A buzzer/light continuity tester is not reliable unless you make sure the only possible path between it's two probes is the path you want to test.   Much easier to just look at the ohms reading.

while it bores even my wife, if you're desperate to see a little unedited video on how a coin relay can be manually tripped/latched and way too much fiddling with a single switch, there is a video in https://bingo.cdyn.com/videos/ cleverly called Coin_Relay.mp4.  The title is the best part.

[wizeguy]

UPDATE:

I have second Bally slot from the same era.

I compared the far left switches on the coin relay and they are different,  The slot machine that is working correctly has the long blade on the RIGHT HAND side,  The Slot machine with the issue has has the long blade on the LEFT Hand side.

 Should they be setup the same way or is there an issue with one of them? 

 I attached photos to the post. 

[wolftalk]

UPDATE:

I have second Bally slot from the same era.

I compared the far left switches on the coin relay and they are different,  The slot machine that is working correctly has the long blade on the RIGHT HAND side,  The Slot machine with the issue has has the long blade on the LEFT Hand side.

 Should they be setup the same way or is there an issue with one of them? 

there's no guarantee the switches will be the same.  If you have another 831 version (fruit or whatever), then they almost certainly would be the same.  Different models/game types, nope.  Also note the wire colors on the blades are different, and the rightmost switch on your working game is a make-before-break switch which the 831 doesn't need.

you can use the "does this make sense" rule while resetting/tripping the relay manually if you aren't familiar with the schematic.  As shown in your pic, the leftmost switch would never close - so there would be no point in having it there.  Therefore it must be misadjusted.

the schematic says a switch with a black/yellow wire (83-1) and I assume the mating blade has blue/white wire (25-1) on it should be closed when the coin relay is tripped (after coin deposited) and open when the coin relay is latched (after a spin).

that switch is responsible for powering the handle release relay to unlock the handle.

in your pic, the coin relay is tripped.  You may need to bend the long blade rightwards a little and the short blade leftwards to make the contacts touch when the coin relay is tripped.  The video referenced in post #7 is how that switch should behave.

note that when closed, only the long blade tension is pushing against the short blade, so you won't see much/any deflection of the short blade after the contact touch.  Just make sure they are touching firmly.

if in doubt, post another pic with the coin relay reset and folks can chime in if the adjust looks wrong.  Hint - the switch with the orange/red (71-2) wire on the long blade is a double throw, so the long blade is connecting to one of the blades on either side of it.  That switch is controlling the coin accepted and insert coin lights after a spin.

[wizeguy]

Thanks Wolftalk for all of your help,  I believe I have the switches on the "Coin Relay" correct now, but with the switches this way the game will not credit up and play (The coin switch won't start a game)  (When the switch on the far left is jumped it will play a game) I attached a picture of the switches when the coil was tripped and untripped...  Also a drawing of how the switches are now. 

I do have a few questions:

1. I have a schematic, but I don't see wire colors on it?
2. It calls out coils (example: HANDLE RELAY COIL) but I don't see a locations
3. What do the numbers in this following sentence reference?  a black/yellow wire (83-1) and blue/white wire (25-1)

Thanks for all the help

[wolftalk]

1. I have a schematic, but I don't see wire colors on it?

the wire color code chart is on the schematic.  See https://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=146.0

if you have insomnia and want tmi, this may hurt some: https://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/ ... maybe jump ahead to https://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/wires.html

the schematic conventions in the EM slots are the same as the bally pinballs/bingos.

2. It calls out coils (example: HANDLE RELAY COIL) but I don't see a locations

not sure what this means, but bally is a little loose with the labelling on the schematic.  It's a side effect of multiple people drawing the things and since they did it by hand, it was common to take an early drawing and make changes to produce a new one.  On some blueprints, you can see where they used whiteout or erased circuits :-)

the "handle release coil" is the coil on the handle release relay mounted above the handle box.  Switches on that relay are inconsistently labelled "handle release" or "handle sw".

the use of "coil" vs. "relay" is also inconsistent.  Typically "coil" would mean a solenoid ... the coils with the plungers going thru the hole ... but in this case the handle release relay and coin relay are similar mechanisms but they called one a coil and the other a relay on the schematic.  The labels in the game probably both say relay.

3. What do the numbers in this following sentence reference?  a black/yellow wire (83-1) and blue/white wire (25-1)

in the wire color code, black = 8 and yellow = 3.  So a mostly black wire with a yellow stripe/tracer/bands would be code 83.   

problem is there's too many wires in the machines for them each to have unique color combinations, so they have to reuse the same color wire in different circuits.

e.g. 83, 83-1 and 83-2 are all black with a yellow tracer and likely look exactly the same.  However, they are functionally different wires.

the key point is you can't assume two wires of the same color are ends/segments of the same wire. 

yellow wire 30 (neutral wire for everything in the 50V and 6V circuits) and orange wire 70 (50V fused power wire) are kinda exceptions.  There's no 70-x and 30-x wires, so if for example you see a solid yellow wire someplace in the machine, it's wire 30.

I believe I have the switches on the "Coin Relay" correct now, but with the switches this way the game will not credit up and play (The coin switch won't start a game)  (When the switch on the far left is jumped it will play a game)

sounds like the old "it looks closed, but it's not".  Ideally, after the contacts touch the long blade deflects the short blade visibly.  On that switch tho, nothing is pushing the blades together.  It's only the tension in the blades you create by bending them where they enter the stack that mashes the contacts together.

try bending the long blade to the right some, and clean the contacts.  If the contacts are badly pitted, you can file them to remove some of the normal damage caused by arcing.

after a spin, when you deposit a coin or push down the coin switch, the coin relay should trip (you hear it).  When the coin switch tripwire goes back up, the handle release relay trips.

sounds like your coin relay is tripping and your handle release is not, and you jumpered the switch to make it work.  Therefore, that switch is still misadjusted/cruddy - it's not closing.

[DavidLee]

It’s possible that the contract limiters are part of the problem.
The limiters (copper in color) in most cases are vertical.
Adjustments made to this machine seem to be a little excessive.