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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: jimliner on September 17, 2016, 04:54:41 PM
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Went looking for a 742 and came home with a 891-1. Needs a cleaning a some adustments. Parts complete. 1st on list though is good reel snap. Pull handle down and its like it needs a little more travel to start reels spinning. So I guess I will be starting on right side of reel mech. Also need to learn how credit meter works. Has both hopper and credit meter.
Jim
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Jim... I would clean the air cylinder first before making too many adjustments.. I have had them so dirty that the cylinder had a hard time making a full travel.. Next check the roll pin on the back shaft crank linkage.. Far lower back right side.. I have a 4 reel E Series that the hole in the shaft is worn egg shaped causing that machine to not want to crank every once in a while.. I'm thinking of drilling it out over size and going to the next larger size roll pin available..
Gary
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Thanks Gary, pulled cylinder after reading your post. Yep, it was a mess. Machine sat for "years".
What I am waiting to test is credit system. If I turn lower key 180 degrees, bottom right reel glass lights up saying "push button to play credits". I just need to find out how to accumulate credits.
Thanks Gary.
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I think what that means is that you get paid in credits instead of coins. Setup a jackpot on the machine and see it if gives you credits instead of coins.
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Well got reels spinning. Few bugs nothing terrible. Short pays on multi coins. Hopper not reseting fully for paying more than one coin. I like the x's units better than follower. 7's the hopper runs hopper empty if I let it. Going to clean and check spring tension.
I had the upper switch "on", which i believe runs meter down. I am guessing right now thats why it paid from hopper no matter what position bottom switch was in.
Tomorrow I'll play some more.
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Shortpaying and hopper runs dry problems are probably both on the payout disc - clean it to make it reset and chek that it can step the jackpot manually
Happy hunting ;)
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https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7OIdMyIjQuMYXZSTFBjR216djQ
Jim take this to someone that can print blueprints get it laminated so you can draw on it and it should help with the credit meter and understanding that circuit
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Thanks Denmark. I will give the hopper payout disc a careful cleaning.
Jon, Thank you very much for the PDF. I really appreciate it. It should be a huge help. Probably to take file to Kinko's, they have large printers I saw when having normal copies made. Thanks Jon.
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Holy crap. Talk about making things complicated. I am not a fan of the odds follower and cam motors. Crazy schematic. The x units are a breeze compared to this system. I understand that on multiple coin pays, it pays one coins worth then resets hopper and pays the next coin played worth but trying to follow on schematic is going to take awhile.
Cleaned contacts on paydisk and added tension to spring so it resets to zero before paying next coin. Got a little work to do on jackpot pays.
Still looking into credit system.
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Now you know why I said to laminate it use a grease pencil to trace the circuits it is one complicated machine I have 10 different color grease pencils to trace circuits on some machines
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I am a fan of the credit meter since restoring my bingo machine which is basiclay a continental
the switch at the bottom switches between cash and credit play the key in the center has to be in the right position its used to run down the credit meter you can tell if its in the wrong position as the score motor runs constantly
you should be able to play with coins when in the credit position, the coins are diverted from the hopper but all wins register to the meter or if you have credits you can turn the bottom switch to cash play and then use the credits left on the meter then any wins will be payed in cash I was surprised by how fast you can play the machine when using the button just hold it in and it soon racks up 6 coins
deepest apologies was recalling from memory no there is only 1 coil
in cash it works as an ordinary hopper where the coin under the arm drives the payout
(I`m guessing a bit here cause I cant remember)in credit mode the hopper motor is switched out and the coil is then controlled by the score motor and odds disc its easier to see on a larger payout the payout counter on the hopper starts to count but is reset by the score motor and starts again what I have not quite understood is the relationship when you have a x1 pay you will get 12 pulses from the score motor x2 is 6 pulses and x6 is 2 pulses because I`m not sure what all the pulses are doing I did make some notes but they don't make sense to me now (bit like this post of mine)
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Mark could you send a pic of the two solenoids behind pay board. when you say payboard are you talking payout disc on hopper OR below credit meter behind the top board behind the top awards glass?
When I turn the bottom key to play or accumulate credits, if i hit a winner the hopper doesnt turn on (which is what i expect) the solenoid on hopper behind payout disc does count up moving wiper fingers. Multiple coin winner it resets and pays (counts) for each coin played. But the credit meter doesnt advance stays at zero on meter. Hoping just dirty connector in that circuit.
Thanks.
Jim
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Jim, is that one coil good? That paper wrap looks black like its been hot..
Gary
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Hi Gary,
I think its oil or grease that dripped down from above. Currently it works the reset levers to zero wipers. I will wipe off next time I open it up.
Jim
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Bottom key - banks of switches.
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That's a lot of switches....
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jim have edited my last post
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Cheers Mark. Thanks. I was a bit worried it might be missing something. I will probably have a few more question in the coming weeks.
Thanks,
Jim
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Jim... I would clean the air cylinder first before making too many adjustments.. I have had them so dirty that the cylinder had a hard time making a full travel.. Next check the roll pin on the back shaft crank linkage.. Far lower back right side.. I have a 4 reel E Series that the hole in the shaft is worn egg shaped causing that machine to not want to crank every once in a while.. I'm thinking of drilling it out over size and going to the next larger size roll pin available..
Gary
Wich one is the "air cylinder"? Pics?
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Right side of reel mech. Typically tan/brown tube cylinder mounted horizontal about 6 inches long. I'll post pic next I have reel mech out.
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Rookie Mistake.
I got all lower pays working on multiple coins by adding tension to pay disc. It wasnt returning all the way to zero before starting next coin pay.
I never took apart paydisc assembly so I just add one rev to spring by taking off at post and giving full rev.
It did pull wipers to zero before next coin payout started counting.
Buuuttt, on 200 coin pay the wipers could not go around twice. Reached a point that tension was to much and ran out hopper.
Tomorrow i am going to dissassemble properly and clean and lube.
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Been there and done that before myself.. :banghead: When you take the hopper apart, make sure the 100 tooth gear shaft is not too tight.. I have seen them swell up or the bushing shrinks. I did have to file one lightly before to get it to work correctly.. You want your spring tension as light as possible. I figure if it returns to zero on a 2 coin payout it's perfect.. I'm not 100% sure if the payout wiper boards suppose to have the contact grease or oil used on it, but I usually put a very light film on it to save the traces and wiper fingers.. OldReno would know for sure.. All I know is that it helps with having the wiper fingers get back to zero..
Gary
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2 and 1/2 turns is a good starting point.
But you need to first clean your payboard.
Be careful when pushing the spiral cam back onto the shaft of your 100 tooth gear. Grab it firmly when you push back on so it stays in place.
Don't let spring overlap on itself.
Too much tension makes runaways on high pays.
Too little makes for short pays as hopper double steps on 1st coins out.
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Ok. Thanks AM & OldReno. Took apart paydisc and 100 tooth. The paydisc had a heavy sticky film on it and the shaft going through board for spiral cam had old grease, not alot but enough.
It is still a balancing act to get wipers to reset when paying 2 coins and able to pay 250 coins.
OldReno - You are right about spring not overlapping on itself. Same spring set up will be different if overlapped or not. Thanks.
Right now it can reset for multiple 2 coin pays. Pays 200 coins fine. Pays 250 alright, occassionally overpays 6-10 coins.
paydisc ok. Hole is round, pic makes it look oval. 2 tab is a rough at edge but 2 pays work. Getting closer to looking at credit play.
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6 to 10 coin overpay perhaps due to outboard wiper fingers staying on tab too long. For example on a 200 coin pay, the outboard 200 wiper needs to come off tab in the middle of the carryover (CO) which is about 170 to 180 coins. The CO is hot on every pay, you just need outboard wipers to get your inner pay fingers up to it. I did a post on the CO somewhere. Good job so far.
ALWAYS check where your wiper fingers end up at on ANY miss pay....
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Thanks OldReno. I will check. I think the inboard are past CO before outers come off. There some chattering at the end pay. Like its trying to finish but wants to another coin or two.
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Located and read explaination on CO circuit and outboards. Going to check and set tomorrow. Thanks.
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Adjusted all the outbaord wipers.
Wow, what a difference. All pays are great. And wipers zero on 2 coin pays.
100 wiper was leaving tab before inboards made it to CO.
200 wiper was almost in perfect sycn with end of CO.
250 wiper was still on but almost off tab at CO that ends at 50th tooth. Thats why it was chattering while paying the extra coins.
Thanks a lot. I dont completely grasp something till I see 1st hand.
Adding to adjustment/maintenance list.
Jim
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Good job! You get a gold star in my notebook!
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Make sure you put a little crimp in your outboard wipers (at the bend) to make sure they have firm contact. You should hear them snap when you lift and release them.
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That coil is not greased up ... it is over heated. Check you fuses so you are not over fused, then remove the coil from the circuit and check the ohms for it. There is a chart that will tell you the ohms of coils online. If I knew where my chart was I would send it to you. When a coil overheats, due to a short along with over amping with a fuse thats over rated, it will overheat and burn off the insulation on the coil wires and cause an issue. Good place to start whenever I pick up a EM slot, is to check my fuses first.
Dave F
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Thanks Dave. I think you are right. The other night when repeatedly running high pays with door open, I kept thinking I was seeing the reflection of an orange glow behind hopper. Wasnt happening all the time. Even once I used hopper extension cable and turned off most lites in basement. Didnt see glow when i ran a high po like this. Anyways looks like i will be checking and replacing fuses. Probably be changing coil. I will have to see if I can find ohm chart for coils.
Thanks Dave.
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good way to start all new repairs
Dave
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It sounds like the coil be dying of old age or it could have been replaced with one possiblie under sized? Jon might know that coils size.
Gary
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Machines don't hit high pays all that often. Be sure give machine time to cool down. You can mechanically step or wind up pay fingers by hand partway.
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I appreciate the confirmation .... But Old Reno can give you the definitive answer on all EMi issues.
Dave
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Daughter had softball all weekend. I watched her team all weekend. Didn't get time to dig in too much more.
I did take have an hour to remove upper unit and look over. Cleaned contacts on odds follower, odds step up disk and counter disk. Looked over counter register for credit play. The counter step up coil had the orange wires connected. But the wires on other tab on coil were cut. Using jumpers tested both coils, stepping up & resetting counter. Both worked, and worked linkages for counter. Connected cut wires back together.
Reinstalled upper unit. Switched bottom switch to credit play. Left credits on counter before installing back into top cabinet. When you plug in, it clears the credit. Which is what I read somewhere. Did a couple small hits. Interesting. It counts up win. But immediately removes ~ 6 credits, feature lights remain on 6 coin pay. The play credit button didn't work. So I will be tracing that out eventually.
That's was it for today. Put back to coin play and all is still good. I still need to do fuses this week and look at changing out coil on back of payboard.
Jim
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Jim, I was looking thru a EM Trouble Shooting Book I have a saw this on the Super Continental Credit button. I hope you can read it.
Gary
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Jim ... I have one but only hopper payout, I have heard that there is a key switch right side that will operate the hopper to dispense coins...... might want to look that too ...
Dave F
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Thanks Gary. I was able to read it. I used jumpers and was able to get both the count up and count down solenoids to fire and move digits. I still went ahead and cleaned each while fully extended.
Thanks Dave. There are two large banks of switches on each side of the bottom key. The bank towards the front of the machine is for credit play, back bank of switches is for coin play and hopper pay. The back/coin play bank of switches are bent (maybe from being in that position so long) in such a way that even when not in use they all make contact. On my list to correct. Slipped a small piece of a cut up business card between contacts to break circuit till I can pull straighten and clean.
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Well, I got the Bally manually # 1100. I was hoping for a little more info on the odds follower and motor & cam assembly. Not as much depth and description of function as I had hoped. Still good to have. Detailed parts description and exploded views. Except motor / cam set up.
Set machine back up for credit play. It performed the same way. Any win added credits to meter but when finished it subtracted six credits. It basically was playing six credits. I had looked in the cabinet upper section where the switch is and the contacts are open. They close when button is pushed. I went through schematic (Thanks again Jon) and decided to put a small piece of tape on C-3 mech switch since whether coin or credit is being play to coin up it has to pass through this switch. Now, when I had the machine on credit play and set up a pay, the counter tallied the winning amount of coins to meter and did not automatically play six credits. Ok. So now I am thinking a switch is closed that should be open, back to schematic. There is a "closed at zero" switch on register (credit counter) that would complete circuit. If it is at zero the button switch to play credits won't work b/c theres no credits to play. Thinking this is stuck closed. While checking this switch (appears open), I looked at button switch contacts again but from a slightly different angle. From this angle, I can see that someone had pinched the leaf switch arms together close to the insulator plates so the play credit button was always making contact even though where it should make contact was not touching. Tight quarters so instead of fixing correctly (for now) in goes another piece of a business card.
Bingo. Credit play works like a charm. Whether playing one coin to six coins, play credit button works. Winnings get added to meter.
So, right now I need to put together a hit list of all the things that need fixing, not just rigged up with bits of business cards. Solenoid on hopper pay disk. Fuses. A bunch of cleaning. Straightening out leaf switch arms. And more when I sit down and look some more.
Since machine is working well on coin play and credit play and I have a schematic I am going to try and figure out the odds follower, count up disc and the motor / cam system. I think my best chance of understanding it, is while it is working and I can see it working correctly.
I hope I am not jinxing myself by saying all is well. But what the hell.
Thanks everyone for your help. Old Reno, shout out to you on CO circuit. Jon, big thanks for the schematic, big help.
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Jim if you need any contacts for that switch let me know. I just picked up a bag full of contacts. Some even have the plastic spacers at the ends. I just had to go digging in that bag tonight to repair a broken dash pot contact on this 809 that came in for service on Saturday. I couldn't figure out why the handle solenoid wouldn't fire to release the handle till i found a broken contact in the back right corner while vacuuming the machine out. It's nice having parts to fix machines without stealing them from a donor machine.
Gary
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Thanks Gary. I am going to pull the bank of switches this weekend. I think I can get them straightened out so they open/close by using key. I will send you a PM once I see how well leaf tool works. Appreciate the offer and will let you how know it turns out.
Thanks,
Jim
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I had one of those straightening tool... I broke it!! I have a mini needle nose pliers with long thin tips that work nice. Got them from Sears. It was a 3 piece set of mini cutters and two different needle nose pliers.
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Figuring out how pays work. Playing in credit mode, the payboard does not reset for each credit/coin played. Pay is done through cams and odds step up disc. Hopper motor is bypassed.
When a win is hit in credit mode for one credit played just cam 1 (12 pulse) is used and the odds step disc has no effect. Each pulse from cam 1 adds a credit to register meter and steps payboard once.
For a win for two coins, cam 1 and another cam (with 6 pulses) is selected by the odds step up disc. Now when cam motor starts (instead of hopper motor) cam 1 still increases credit meter with each pulse but the other cam (6 pulses) the payboard step up once for each two coins paid.
For a win for three coins, cam 1 and another cam (with 4 pulses) is selected by the odds step up disc. Now when cam motor starts, cam 1 still increases credit meter with each pulse but the other cam (4 pulses) the payboard step up once for every 3 coins paid.
Cam 2 (10 pulses) is used instead of cam 1 for five coins played along with another cam, 2 pulses.
Coin play and pay is interesting. Still going through schematic, starting to make sense.
Jim
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Hello Jim,
When you have time would you post a photo or two of the cam assembly your describing, sounds very interesting.
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Hi Dave,
Here's a few pic of motor and cams.
Actually for credit meter its a pretty good system. Similar to x units in a way. Odds step unit picks x unit, here odds step up unit picks cams.
Jim
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Here's some pic's of main components.
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I was able to straighten out the leaf switches arms on the coin play bank. When I would turn key to credit, the coin switches were still closed which messed up pay outs. I can now turn key to either coin or credit and just the one selected works.
Jim
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Think I found for brand new sets in storage today sweet
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This will give you some information on one of the plates in that machine
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Thanks Jon. I'll print it out and compare.