New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: rjpohl on February 02, 2021, 11:54:46 AM
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I've cleaned all switches and cleaned/lubed reel mech.
Everything works, takes coins (all 3) and registers them. Handle pulls freely and reels spin and stop as they should. Only issue it doesn't make any payouts. I check the payout mech and it advances by manually and returns to zero by hand.
I think it's probably something very simple, just want to get some advise before I start exploring and mess it up.
thanks
Bob
[edited to change topic from E1088 to just 1088]
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E series games are in the "reel games" forum - Bally Reel Games (newlifegames.com) (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?board=75.0)
those games use optical sensors to read the reel positions to determine winners, so the folks over in that area have the knowledge you need.
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It is a EM, fully mechanical.
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where did you get the E1088 from? Is it just a 1088 (top number on plate below the handle)?
paperwork for some 1088 models in on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ (http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/)
if you're comfortable reading the schematic and using the 1088 one as an example, win detection and payout can be divided into three chunks:
1] wire 90 (and 91, 93 if you played 2/3 coins) need to have a closed circuit path back to wire 30, which is the common ("ground") wire on the transformer.
test is stick a voltmeter probe on orange wire 70 on the handle release coil (or any handy 50V coil) and the other probe on grey wire 90 on handle release relay switch. You should see 50V after the reels have been spun regardless of where the reels wind up.
2] the reel wipers connect wire 90 thru the three reel contact plates to the appropriate wire for the payout on the payout counter on the hopper
set up a single cherry win on the reels and pull out the reel mech. Use an ohmeter with probes on wire 90 and 13 on the reel mech plugs (see plug chart on schem and verify the wire colors on plug). You should get almost zero ohms.
alternate test, voltmeter with one probe on orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil, other probe on wire 13 on the payout counter disc. You should get 50V when you have a single cherry win.
3] circuit continues thru payout counter wipers/trace and causes the payout relay to power. That turns on the hopper motor and ejecting coins cause the payout counter step-up coil to pulse and step up the unit (the 1088 has an electrically stepped payout counter). When the wipers step off the end of the trace that is connected back to wire 90 (and therefore 30), the the circuit disconnects, the payout relay unpowers and the hopper motor turns off.
a quick test is turn off machine after a spin, pull hopper, jumper wire 30 to one of the numbered traces on the payout counter, put hopper back in and turn on the game. Push the reset button at the top/right of the door opening and the game should pay the amount on the trace you jumpered.
with no payouts working, the most likely thing is one of the switches on the path between wire 90 and 30 is open when it shouldn't be. If the handle release is working when you drop in a coin, that just leaves a coin relay switch and a handle release relay switch to connect 60-1 to 90. Other possible problems are bad payout relay coil or a reel wiper is not mounted correctly so it sitting on the wrong rivets.
tmi, or is that not enough info? The wire id -> color chart is on the schem. e.g. 60-1 is a solid brown wire, 90 is solid grey, 63-3 would be brown with a yellow tracer/stripe.
if you don't have a voltmeter, a jumper wire can be used to connect wire 30 to any place in the circuit path to the payout relay. By moving the jumper around, you'll find the point that has an open connection to 30 when it should be closed.
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if you aren't comfortable reading the schem yet, a pic of the coin relay and handle release relay when they are reset (after a spin, before a coin is inserted) will help, and whether you are a voltmeter or jumper guy if it gets to the point of needing to do that.
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Wolftalk, reading a schematic is like Greek to me. I do feel pretty comfortable with use of jumper and ohm meter. attached is a pic of tag on slot. I'm going to try to work on this a few hours tomorrow.
I appreciate your help, information and of course your time.
Bob
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ok, you have the base model 1088 assuming the tag matches your game. Usually if the reel symbols match what the schem says you're pretty safe. You have CH, BE, BA, PL, and OR symbols only?
there's a few writeups on reading the schem scattered around the net. If you are bored and want to give brutal feedback, check out Bingo Pinballs - Electricity, voltmeters, and reading Schematics (cdyn.com) (http://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/readschem/). Almost everything in there applies to the EM slots also (the bingos were EM machines made by bally in the same years as the slots), with the main exceptions being where functional blocks of stuff is on the schem and some component info that doesn't exist in slots, the slots are all plastic coated wires, and normally closed (NC) switches on the slot schematic actually look closed ... the pole line is touching the dot.
I'm mostly interested in "that doesn't make sense" or "tmi" kinda feedback. The main idea is you are trying to get from wire 30 to the top side of a coil symbol thru a closed circuit path. (or 30 to a lamp if you are having a 6V circuit issue). Once you get the switch and wiper/contact plate symbols figured out, it's gets easier to figure out what is supposed to happen in the game.
one thing you need to know to make sense of the schem is the coin relay and handle release relay are trip relays. Once the coil powers, the switches all change state and stay that way until the relay is mechanically reset during the spin. That's why, for example, a switch on the coin relay disconnects the coin relay coil. As soon as the relay trips, power is not needed or desired to the coil.
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forgot the hopper cutoff relay. Below is the 1088 schematic highlighted in green for a cherry pay with one coin played.
the reel wipers are highlighted in purple.
for the payout relay to power, the hopper cutoff relay switch needs to connect the payout relay coil to wire 70 - highlighted in red.
for no pays, a single point of failure is the hopper cutoff relay switch or the relay not being powered. If you turn off the game and turn it on, the hopper cutoff relay will be unpowered. To power it, you need to do one of:
- deposit a coin to get the handle release relay to trip
- push the reset button in the upper-right corner of the door opening
once the hopper cutoff relay powers, it should keep itself powered. If it doesn't, that's a problem and suspect the capacitor. If it does, check the switch with orange 70 wire and red/blue 12 wire on the blades on that relay.
I assume the cutoff relay is on/under the hopper.
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Wolftalk, I did a couple of your suggestions today:
test is stick a voltmeter probe on orange wire 70 on the handle release coil (or any handy 50V coil) and the other probe on grey wire 90 on handle release relay switch. You should see 50V after the reels have been spun regardless of where the reels wind up. I did have 50V
set up a single cherry win on the reels and pull out the reel mech. Use an ohmeter with probes on wire 90 and 13 on the reel mech plugs (see plug chart on schem and verify the wire colors on plug). You should get almost zero ohms. Open circuit
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open circuit is surprising ... the game not paying any wins implies a single point of failure that would affect all wins. The 1088 is a buy-pays machine that pays left-right and right-left.
Wire 90 is only used for cherry wins and it seems unlikely circuits connected to wires 91 and 93 also have a problem. You're sure you were on wires 90 and 13 on the plug?
here's a more thorough test which is the usual method of tracing a payout problem thru the reels. Set up a single cherry (at least) on reel 1 and yank the reel mech again.
stick one probe on wire 90 on the plug pin, and look at the green line on the schem on the previous post. Wire 90 goes to reel wiper board on reel 3. Stick other probe there...got zero ohms?
if yes, you can leave one probe on 90 on the pin or reel 3 wiper board and put other probe on wire 90 on reel 1 wiper board. Still zero ohms?
if yes, move probe from wire 90 on reel 1 to wire 13 on reel 1. Still zero ohms?
if yes, move probe from wire 13 on reel 1 to wire 13 on the plug, which you previously found as open circuit. If still open, the wire is probably busted at the back of the plug pin.
if you're having trouble telling the wire colors, the w-1041-2685-2687 doc is the reel wiper diagram (below) will show you where the wires are.
the typical reasons the payout circuits don't work thru the reel wipers are:
1] the rivets are cruddy
2] one or more of the wiper arms are misaligned and the wiper contacts are on the wrong rivets
3] rarely a wiper finger is lifted off the rivets
for [2], you can set all the reels to cherries and look at the diagram to see what rivets the wipers should be on. The diagram is drawn looking at the wiring side of the contact plate.
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Am I right to understand that the problem is somewhere within the reel mech since there was not continuity from the early test (plug wires 90 to 13)?
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Am I right to understand that the problem is somewhere within the reel mech since there was not continuity from the early test (plug wires 90 to 13)?
ummm ... maybe.
if you have a cherry on reel 1 and/or reel 3 and you don't have near zero ohms between 90 and 13 on the plug pins, then yes, that's a problem on the reel mech.
problem is that doesn't explain why you'd get no pay for other stuff. For example, you should see almost zero ohms with these reel combos in either direction:
2-coin
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OR-OR-BA - pays 10 : wires 91 and 27
PL-PL-BA - pays 14 : wires 91 and 41
BE-BE-BA - pays 18 : wires 91 and 51
3 coin
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BA-BA-BA - jackpot : wires 93 and 81
2 coin and 3 coin pays thru the reels are different circuit paths that sometimes use the same wiper fingers on the reel wipers, but the pay in two directions would mean you'd need more than one problem in the reels to have nothing pay.
it's possible someone mispositioned all the reel wipers. Stick the reels on CH-CH-CH and send pics of the reel wipers as best you can if the drawing doesn't make sense.
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no payouts at all - check the handle release relay - 90 wire goes thru there
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Check the beau plugs for pins or sockets that might of been pushed out of position.
Also wiper arm contacts for proper alignment.
If you set up a three bells by hold - releasing the clock fan and there’s no payout.
Try rocking the reels up and down one at a time. This moves the wiper arm which in turn
activates a payout.
The payout relay could need some attention.
Check the wires/contacts that control the hopper motor in the payout relay stack.
These are usually white/blue or sometimes solid green.
I find it best to check the mechanics first. In some cases it saves a lot of time tracing circuits.
These circuits will never have continuity if the circuit is mechanically open.
But on the other hand sometimes the only way to find a mechanical open is through tracing.
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no payouts at all - check the handle release relay - 90 wire goes thru there
he measured 50V on wire 90 on the handle release relay.
could be a problem between there and wire 90 on the reels, but he has an issue with continuity between 90 and 13 on the reel mech only. Still doesn't explain why all payouts have an issue tho.
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Payout Relay, hopper motor needs to start for payouts to begin.
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I've brought this machine home and have the reel assemble in my office.
I rechecked for continuity from on plug #90 to plug #13, circuit is open See 3rd pic of plug with pins I used for test
there are 2 wires soldered to the rear of pin 90. One is orange with a red strip and one is orange with red circles (see pic). also the one with red strip was loose/cut but I don't see the other end. The one with the red circles around it go to the switch on left side of reels (see pic).
Thanks for all the help, I feel like it's got to be close to working!
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I've given you guys so bad info because I've been using the wrong pins for 90 & 13. I looked at back side and found the 13 and 90 and there is continuity between them. How do you know which pin is #1 on the plug pictured in previous reply. When you look at the schematic are they showing the plug from pin side or solder joint side.
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I've given you guys so bad info because I've been using the wrong pins for 90 & 13. I looked at back side and found the 13 and 90 and there is continuity between them. How do you know which pin is #1 on the plug pictured in previous reply. When you look at the schematic are they showing the plug from pin side or solder joint side.
if I could remember that ... :-) David probably knows. I always have to look at the wiring side of a plug or socket and figure out the orientation of the plug chart on the schematic.
you can pretty much ignore all my posts above. Next check is to look and see if the payout relay is powering. If you can't see it easily thru a cutout in the hopper, then watch the "insert coin" light. If it turns on at the end of the spin and stays on when you have a winner, the payout relay didn't power.
if the insert coin light turns off, the payout relay probably is powered and your issue is getting the hopper turned on like David mentioned. Could be the redundant payout relay switches with the white and white/blue wires on them need cleaning, or the hopper cutoff relay is not powered. Try holding in the reset pushbutton (usually in top/right corner of door opening on a metal bracket).
if you can see the hopper cutoff relay - there will be a resistor, diode and capacitor near or strapped to it - look and see if the relay is powered and check the switch with the orange and red/blue wires on the blades. Should be closed when the relay is powered.
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I might have stumbled across the problem(s). I pulled hopper and noticed a 4wires broken loose.
Picture 1:
gray wire that I'm pretty certain broke loose from the connection above and slightly right or it.
the green wire is broken loose but I'm not certain where it came loose from. Green goes to pin 4 on hopper
Picture 2:
white/blue broken off connection right above it (at least I'm pretty certain that's where it came loose from)
white/yellow wire is loos but I'm not sure from where. White/Yellow goes to hopper pin 8.
re-soldering wires should be a easy task, just want to be sure I put them back correctly.
thanks
Bob
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As previously mentioned.
The payout relay could need some attention. Check the wires/contacts that control the hopper motor in the payout relay stack.These are usually white/blue or sometimes solid green.
That is odd and rarely happens. Possibly the wires got caught on something and yanked off.
A schematic or photo would be a good reference.
In some case a little investigation with hi-powered magnifying head gear will help relocate wire position(s).
Wires/solder joints will match up, also the colors will indicate a position.
I’ll check later for a photo of the payout relay for a 1088.
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I added info about the 2 loose wires in reply 19 go to on hopper plug.
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Photos of payout relay wires.
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David, can you verify that the white/yellow wire solders where the red circle in pic is? That's what I think I see in your pics.
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David,
can you verify that the green wire and grey w/white solder to tab circled red in pic?
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David, can you verify that the white/yellow wire solders where the red circle in pic is? That's what I think I see in your pics.
below is the schematic.
the yellow/brown wire is 36 and connects to two payout relay switches ... the bare wire connecting two blades together on the left.
one blade on the right should have a white/yellow wire 53-2 on it, and the other should have black/green wire 84. If the switch contacts are the same type, it doesn't matter which switch has 53-2 and which has 84. When the relay powers, 53-2, 84 and 36 are all connected together thru two different switches.
in david's pic, 53-2 is on the bottom switch and 84 is on the switch above it.
in your pic, it looks like 84 is on the bottom and it kinda looks like it's connected to both switch blades ... is it? If not, then 53-2 connects to the blade above the one with 84.
except for jumper wires - usually solid black - two wires of different colors are almost never connected directly together. When they did it, they labeled it "TIE" on the schematic.
if you don't have a total out meter, then 53-2 isn't used and can be left disconnected.
your main issue was the white/blue wire broken off ... that's wire 52 and is the 120V power wire to the hopper motor.
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Photos
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1 more photo.
AI turned the photos 90°
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David,
can you verify that the green wire and grey w/white solder to tab circled red in pic?
a green wire would be 40 or 40-x. A grey/white wire would be 95 or 95-x.
does the relay have a label? If not, look at the wire colors on the relay coil to match to the schem. Since your pic doesn't show the coil, a bit of hunting around for things that have those wire colors and a switch blade with a 47 ohm resistor attached finds the relay is the delay relay in the 120V circuit.
the grey/white wire is 95 and attaches to the switch with the other grey/white wire segment and resister as you circled, the green wire 40 goes to the bare wire connecting the two blades to the left of 95.
while I was typing david posted pics showing that.
those wires look cut to intentionally disable the safety timeout that prevents dumping all the coins in the hopper if there's a payout issue. You may want to leave them disconnected and verify the game is working, because if you reconnect them and there's an issue with the delay relay or safety motor, you'll have the game shutting down during payout.
as a caution, when you are looking at pics of someone else's game, verify the model number is exactly the same. (e.g. a 1088 and 1088-1 can be wired differently). Then because serial plates and guts are sometimes swapped around, look at all the wiring you can see and make sure it matches. In this case, it looked like wire 84 on the payout relay is different. You are then rolling the dice on whether it works, and could fry a coil if really unlucky.
if your only problem was the broken white/blue wire not turning on the hopper motor, what should have happened when you got a winner is:
1] the game will not accept coins, so it's kinda locked up
2] the safety timer would eventually trigger and the game would completely shut down except a red neon light behind the hopper. You know why that didn't happen :-)
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I was able to figure out where all the wires went with exception of white/yellow. I put hopper in and it is making payouts and for the most part they are correct (I know it's adding an extra coin on many payouts but that's a problem for another day).
I can see in one of David's pics where his white/yellow is but my machine seems to be a bit different. I might put a jumper on the it and try a few spins.
On the schematic in an earlier reply shows the yellow/white (53) going to a total out meter. I have a small meter in top of glass by the winner's paid, and there's also a counter in the front of reel #1. Are either of these the total out meter?
Only real problem I had playing and paying was every 5 or 6 time I insert 1st coin the handle would not release and doesn't register the 2nd or 3rd coin. I have to manually release handle a few times and then it's make to playing right for a few spins.
thanks all all your patience and help, greatly appreciated!!!!
Bob
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The total out is below the first reel.
The extra coin could be linked to the coin pivot roller / arm.
Roller pivot contacts might be to close.
Set up a payout and observe what happens to the last coin near the pivot roller.
One could be slipping by or sticking in the chute.
Or the payout odds unit might need to be advanced slightly.
Thus causing the contacts to move off the metal strips one coin sooner.
Coin switch first link is the payout relay bottom left of the hopper.
The contacts might need cleaning.
BUT, try this first. Play the machine as best as possible for a good 30 minutes.
This will help free up any old lubricant and burn some of the contamination off the contacts.
It might run better afterwards.
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On the schematic in an earlier reply shows the yellow/white (53) going to a total out meter. I have a small meter in top of glass by the winner's paid, and there's also a counter in the front of reel #1. Are either of these the total out meter?
david already answered, but the snarky answer is the total out meter is the one with the white/yellow 53-2 wire on it :-)
I didn't include enough on the schem chunk above, but if you have the entire schem downloaded, the total out meter has 53-2 on one terminal and 63-2 on the other, so the sanity check is verify the other wire on the meter is brown/yellow.
brown is a awkward color ... sometimes it looks more tan than brown.
I think david covered everything else, yell if not. One addition is whether you have the new or old style hopper. If the hopper motor is under the hopper, it's new style and there's a brake mechanism on the motor rotor that can get sticky. It needs to move freely as it's job is to immediately stop the rotor when the power is turned off. That prevents the motor from coasting to a stop and possibly ejecting an extra coin.
someone recently dealt with a sticky brake and included pictures, so a search should pop it up.
old style hoppers have an arm with a plastic golf ball attached to detect coin level, new style hoppers use weight to determine when hopper is full.
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I do have the new style hopper, I'll check out the sticky brake topic.
I've been using a business card to clean the switches, can you guys recommend a better cleaning method. Also I think I saw some tool/file for the beau plugs, any suggestions? I'm guessing I have a few switches that need to be cleaned better since the handle doesn't release every time and the winner paid light didn't always come on after a win.
I hope it warms up a bit today so I can play/test the slot.
Bob
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I played it for about 15 minutes before the cold got to me. I was only playing one coin at a time. Major problem is after a few spins the insert coin does not light, when I insert coin the coin accepted light comes on but handle does not release. I have to manually release handle to spin, it may take one or two times manually releasing handle before the insert coin light comes back on. As soon as it does then the handle is released after coining up.
I cleaned all the switches on hopper, I'm going to bring payout unit in house and clean those switches now.
Bob
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contact condition:
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if the switch contacts are:
- coated with a dry black powder, you don't need to do anything to clean them
- wet/oily or looking like they are shellacked, clean with a solvent like denatured alcohol. You can also use a "plaststone" (see tools below).
- pitted/burned and are larger "hockey puck" shaped, you can file. Put a file between and put pressure on. You want to file both surfaces at the same time so they are parallel, and file until the contacts are flat and shiny.
- pitted/burned and smaller contacts with one side domed and one side flat. If they are gold colored, you're not really supposed to file these as they are "flashed" and filing will remove the surface coating. However, if they are damaged to the point of not working, you have nothing to lose by trying. Eventually you replace the blade with a new contact.
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tools - get from pinball parts suppliers:
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- switch adjuster. A kit with a few shapes is handy if you can find one ... like this:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-SWK (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-SWK)
- contact file
http://www.pbresource.com/tools.html (http://www.pbresource.com/tools.html)
- plaststone (optional)
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-PLAST (https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-PLAST)
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adjusting switches:
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- make sure the two screws fastening the stack are snug. Snug the one closest to the switch blades first. Don't crank too hard on them, they are soft and you can shear them.
- use a switch adjuster tool right next to the stack to bend the non-moving blades. If you use needlenose pliers or a flat screwdriver, again bend where the blade enters the stack. If someone kinked the blades along their length, make sure they can't short to adjacent blades
- the goal of adjusting switches is to have "overtravel". After the contact touch, the moving blade keeps going a little and pushes the other blade a bit. This causes the contacts to slide across each other ... like your finger and thumb when you snap your fingers. Makes a good, self-cleaning mechanical connection. Overtravel works when the moving blade is being pulled/pushed by something like the slotted lifter on a relay. Sometimes it's just blade tension pressing against another another blade and you can't get obvious overtravel.
- occasionally you need to bend the moving blade. Use common sense.
- if a thinner blade has a fatter movement limiting bar blade next to it, the thin blade should lie pretty flat against the limit bar when the switch is open.
there must be youtube videos of all this stuff :-) Usually when people have flaky switch behavior it's due to lack of overtravel.
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The machine won’t operate perfectly in colder climate.
Payout relay bottom left of the reels mechanism needs attention.
I might of said hopper in my last post, my mistake.
If the machine is in colder climate, let it set turned on for 30 minutes then play it.
Also check the coin in switch for freedom of movement. If it drags occasionally this might effect the handle release.
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I had cleaned the payout relay and put reels back in but it still acted up every few spins. I pulled the reels and connected them with jumper cables. I played 15 or more spins and it seemed to be ok, insert coin came back on after every spin, it accepted and registered the next coin, handle released and reels completed spin. I've cleaned on the male beau pins but not the female side. I'll try some electrical cleaner on them tomorrow and I may try to get it to a warm place.
I'm going to look into buying something to clean them.
Bob
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Okay,
Seems everything is in working order.
Just the infrequent glitch, could be the climate.
The best indicator that the machine is completely warmed up, the reels glass will be warm.
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I had reels out and connected with the jumpers. Whenever it goofed up, I would just cycle by pushing the air shock to spin the reels, usually after 3 or 4 times the insert coin light will come back on and then would accept coins. I put reels back in and played until the problem came back, I then pulled/pushed on air shock and the insert light would come on. Must be a problem with the set on switches behind air shock. I've cleaned and am pretty sure they are adjusted properly. I sprayed some electrical cleaner on them and then played for 10 minutes, seems to be getting better with the more I play it (which David had suggested/hinted).
I'm going to move it in the next few days to a warmer spot, that should help too.
thanks
Bob
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the switch behind the air cylinder is the dashpot switch. That may cause problems with handle release, but it's not in the circuits for the insert coin lamp.
what is in the circuit and would jiggle if you messed with the main shafts via the air cylinder are the reel C switches on the left side. C switches are vertical ... the ones in your second pic on the initial post.
can't see what wire colors are connected to the blades, but the lamp switch would have red/black and brown/yellow wires on the blades ... probably.
if you can run the reels outside the cabinet, when you have the problem poke the C switches. You can use your finger, there's no 120V on any of them. If that's not comfortable, use a chopstick or other wood/plastic thing to nudge the blades.
I guess if you have grease that is too thick at lower temps, that could affect where the C switches wind up a little bit, but it's more likely a dirty switch or one that's barely closing most of the time.
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Check the "B" switch left side of the reels.
Due to its location and horizontal position it gets a lot grimy build up.
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the B switches on the 1088 aren't in the lamp or coin reject circuits.
C-2 is in the lamp circuit, C-4 if closed will cause coins to be rejected back out to the tray.
we are just talking about the insert coin lamp and coin reject now, right? The coin accepted light and winner paid light always work correctly?
given the enormous gap in C-4 in pic 2 of his first post, the only thing that makes sense if C-4 is closed is the black linkage is sticking. That should be visible by looking where the front end of the linkage is without removing the reels (after seeing where it should be peviously). You should also be able to push the end of the linkage and it moves toward the back easily and the spring pulls it to the front when you let go.
'course, if the entire main shaft is not returning to reset position and is holding the linkage back ...
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I believe it is working perfectly now. I've had it in a warm place for a few days and have played it several different times. All lights come on/off as they should durning play. Payoffs are correct.
I believe the last few little problems were switches needing cleaning better or just playing to self clean.
thanks guys for all your time and help, couldn't have done this without you.
Bob