809? hopper buzzing issue

[Phan000]

I went through this machine this morning. Not positive on ID.  Cleaned and lubed.   Got it playing and paying perfectly.

Only outstanding issue is with the hopper.  During what I assume is the spin cycle,  there is a loud buzzing/vibration.

Issue is intermittent,   does. not affect payment.

[wolftalk]

the payout counter reset solenoid is powered during the spin while a reel mech B switch is closed, but the coil should be disconnected as soon as the payout counter wipers are in the reset position and the '0' switch in front of the spiral cam opens.

if the '0' switch is not opening well or the wipers are sluggish resetting, the reset solenoid coil will stay powered longer than usual and it may buzz if the coil stop or plunger are worn.

note the reset solenoid should not power if there was no payout on the previous spin.

if it's not that, you may need to narrow down where the noise is coming from.

[DavidLee]

Play the machine with the door open to help pinpoint the buzz.
Also try it when the the room is very dark. As possible arcing could be related.

If the hopper has a magnetic break that isn’t functioning properly
it possibly could be emitting a buzz.

[Phan000]

Video is attached.  I’ll see if I can get a better angle of the other side.


https://youtu.be/8KkvxV4CN0Q

.

[DavidLee]

Just my observation from the video.

The coil seems to be struggling.
Possibly the attached mechanism or what it operates is out of order.
Also the coil plunger appears not to be traveling the normal distance.
Could be the angle of the camera.

Assuming that is the payout step up unit.
Best to inspect its operation by manually stepping.
And or release the spring top right and remove the top two screws and rotate it outward for inspection.

[Phan000]

You are correct David,

Looked again,  the wipers are not resetting.

I’ve cleaned, and disassembled all the gunky parts.  Never had this issue after cleaning before.

When I push the plunger,  it does step up,  but Boggs down occasionally.  I don’t see any missing teeth on the white sprocket.

When I push the reset,  nothing happens unless I nudge the red assesmbly.  The. It resets quickly

[DavidLee]

Hold the ratchet assembly up and manually turn the ratchet wheel to see if it is free.
Check the springs on the ratchet assembly as to be in the correct position.
Inspect the spiral cam metal carriage to see if it’s bent or deformed.
Also the carriage mounting points.
Possibly a wire is caught in the mechanism.
Not likely, but a set of contact blades could be in the wrong position or on the opposite side of the board.

[Phan000]

I cleaned the reset mechanism more.  Seems to be stepping up and resetting correctly.

The intermittent buzzing continues though.

The attached video shows the reset briefly turning on during the reel spin.  This seems to be what is causing the noise.  The machine is paying correctly.

What would cause the coil to randomly power during a spin?

[kjnuke]

Watching/listening to the video, it appearing to be the hopper mixer and it doesn't happen until the reels have stopped spinning. I have a 809 lightning that does the same thing. Prevents a big mountain of coins building up and levels them out in the hopper. Only bumps the hopper on certain reel positions, so would be intermittent. I thought those mixer relays were only in JPO machines though as they didn't pay out as often.

[DavidLee]

Best to check all switch contacts associated with the coil.
Possibly the vibration from the reels is affecting a set of contacts that are a little to close.

[Phan000]

Watching/listening to the video, it appearing to be the hopper mixer and it doesn't happen until the reels have stopped spinning. I have a 809 lightning that does the same thing. Prevents a big mountain of coins building up and levels them out in the hopper. Only bumps the hopper on certain reel positions, so would be intermittent. I thought those mixer relays were only in JPO machines though as they didn't pay out as often.

This was my thought as well.  It does seem to happen at the same time as a mixing cycle would normally occur.

[RiseLikeRa]

David I thought that I was the only one that knew the old play the game in the dark and look for an arc trick.  It has helped me on several occasions.  Not sure about the mixer noise theory.  I only have one game that mixes, a Bally 8 coin Arrow Line.  The mixing sounds much more like a payout and lasts longer than what I heard.  I guess each game is different.  One thing that I do know for sure is that a pair of at least 6 foot jumper cables would help to locate a problem like this in a flash.  I find them essential if you are going to have a few old EM games around.  I got a great pair from a guy named Jim I believe on this forum about 10 years ago.  I hope that he is still doing well.

Ra

[DavidLee]

Ra,

Think I got the in the dark arcing from you.
Reminds me about how we checked the spark plug wires on our old cars.
As they would look good, but could be shorting out. Thus arcing on a valve cover or manifold.

Extension cables come in handy if you’re planning to restore many slot machines.

[Phan000]

 




The intermittent buzz remains,  still investigating.

However,  the step up unit started acting up.  It was skipping steps, then jumped from
1-3, then stuck on 3.

I’ve never encounter these relays before,  though I have a few spares..

Are they plug and play?  One of the clear relays appears damaged,  though does not pull out easily

[wolftalk]

that's an interesting way to replace the wiper/contact plate assembly.  Neither relay powers at unit reset, then one powers at step one and the other powers at step 2?

for the relays, you can usually remove the plastic case and clean the switch contacts and check the operation.  It should be a standard part with a number on the case ... they usually have one set of contacts for the coil and the other contacts are all connected to SPDT (make-break) switch blade sets that you wire up as needed.

your video in post 3 shows the payout counter reset coil powering but the wipers are not resetting (or they are already reset).  If the reset coil is held powered, buzzing is not unusual.  Usually the wipers reset quickly and the switch in front of the spiral cams opens and disconnects the reset coil power, so any buzz is really brief.

your video in post 7 does look like the reset coil is powering.  However, assuming the payout counter is reset, it shouldn't be.  Check the switch in front of the spiral cam and also verify that switch is in the circuit since you've got an aftermarket created machine.

why the hopper motor is turning on - assuming the payout relay is not powering - is a different issue.  If the game has an unnecessary hopper mixer relay, traditionally it would have orange wire 70 and red/yellow wire 13 on the coil lugs.  It would also have two switches connected redundantly with white/blue plastic coated wires on them.

the payout relay has a couple redundant switches with those wire colors also, so ignore the payout relay when looking around on the hopper for a mixer relay.

if you do have a mixer relay, it was normally powered at certain reel 1 index positions (non-paying ones) for the duration of the reel mech B switch closing ... the same reel mech B switch powering the payout counter reset coil and coin/odds unit reset coil. 

the duration of the B switch closure varies a little due to the changing link length on the clock.

since your game pays bidirectionally, there is no guaranteed non-paying reel 1 index position that could be used to power a mixer relay, so it shoulda been removed since it's not needed anyway.  If they left it in and left it wired and reel mech B switch is misadjusted with a tiny gap, you could get the hopper powering as the wipers sweep the contact plate.

[Phan000]

Thanks for the comprehensive post wolf.

I am ignoring the hopper for the moment to focus on the step up.

The  top relay had small solder spots on the trace side of the board.  This was the reason it was so difficult to remove.

I did desolder a bit, and got it off, but the relay is shot.

All of my replacements have rectangular legs,  but this one had round. 

Can’t seem to locate any online.

I’d be fine with just replacing this with a traditional wiper board.

Any suggestions?

[David Walz]

Ra,

Think I got the in the dark arcing from you.
Reminds me about how we checked the spark plug wires on our old cars.
As they would look good, but could be shorting out. Thus arcing on a valve cover or manifold.

Extension cables come in handy if you’re planning to restore many slot machines.

Extension cables are a must for restoring, diagnostic work. It's so easy to work on the slot machine having a full set. 

[drsmlojo]

Where can I get these extension cables?? They would prove to be essential.

[wolftalk]

All of my replacements have rectangular legs,  but this one had round. 

Can’t seem to locate any online.

I’d be fine with just replacing this with a traditional wiper board.

Any suggestions?

Any 50V relay would work.  Maybe replace the round socket with the rectangular one like bally used elsewehere in games or use an open relay (like a payout relay) if you can't find the round pin pattern ones.

to replace the unit with the normal bally stepper means finding an appropriate stepper ... ideally a 3 step unit, but others could be made to work. 

you'd probably want to go with a coin unit setup like a 1090 ... which is what your machine is like now.

The key thing is having enough wiper fingers, even if they aren't exactly arranged like the attached diagram.  You just need a set to control the payout light columns and another set to direct the payout to the appropriate multiplier unit, plus a limit switch or two.

note on the diagram below there are redundant wiper fingers and wired rivets for both the lamps and the payout.

I'm not sure where david walz has been getting parts from ... maybe monte's slot shop.  Might be worth seeing if that source has a suitable unit ... if not, any bally stepper unit would work - you'd just need to rewire the contact plate and limit switches.  There may be something I can find from a bingo pinball machine if you can't find anything.

[David Walz]

All of my replacements have rectangular legs,  but this one had round. 

Can’t seem to locate any online.

I’d be fine with just replacing this with a traditional wiper board.

Any suggestions?

Any 50V relay would work.  Maybe replace the round socket with the rectangular one like bally used elsewehere in games or use an open relay (like a payout relay) if you can't find the round pin pattern ones.

to replace the unit with the normal bally stepper means finding an appropriate stepper ... ideally a 3 step unit, but others could be made to work. 

you'd probably want to go with a coin unit setup like a 1090 ... which is what your machine is like now.

The key thing is having enough wiper fingers, even if they aren't exactly arranged like the attached diagram.  You just need a set to control the payout light columns and another set to direct the payout to the appropriate multiplier unit, plus a limit switch or two.

note on the diagram below there are redundant wiper fingers and wired rivets for both the lamps and the payout.

I'm not sure where david walz has been getting parts from ... maybe monte's slot shop.  Might be worth seeing if that source has a suitable unit ... if not, any bally stepper unit would work - you'd just need to rewire the contact plate and limit switches.  There may be something I can find from a bingo pinball machine if you can't find anything.

K-LAR slot has some good stuff, they are very difficult to contact, telephone or email.
https://www.slotmachinerepair.com/

Monti's slot shop has been able to get me everything I needed. He has a death in the family, so he's been dealing with that, however he is good about responding to the emails.

https://m.facebook.com/DaveMONTIMontanari/