Bally 891-22 not paying

[Ombuds_John]

This Bally 891 was acting weird and paying out as soon as you plugged it in.  I found that the payout counter was out of adjustment and was seating on the 2.  I fixed that and a few broken wires.  I cleaned all connectors.  I have schematics thanks to Rodger at The Sugar Shack.  Now it’s taking nickels and playing, but no jackpots. Not even two coins.  I’m not sure what to check next. 

[wolftalk]

891-22 was made for the 4 queens casino and according to my docs, the reel wiper wiring was different from all the 891 models that came before it.  Your schematic should be w-1046-1726 and reel wiper wiring diagram is w-1041-[2568-2571].

if you don't have a paperwork that is specific to that game, something is different.  It could be minor like when the bell rings, but there's no way to know without verifying what you have vs. the paperwork.  If you don't have a replay register so the game can pay out credits instead of coins, that'd be a huge difference in the circuits.

your game used the w-923-177 payout counter diagram same as many 891's like the 891-1. 

if your machine has a replay register and a key operated switch on the side letting you choose coin pay or credit pay, it's likely the game is almost the same as the 891-1, and paperwork for that machine is on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

since the game is a multiple coin multiplier, get pays working for 1 coin played first. 

are you ok with reading the schematic and mapping the wire id's on the schem to wire colors?

an initial sanity check is set up a 2 cherry win and pull out the reels.  Use on ohmeter to measure the resistance/continuity between wire 90 and wire 15.  You should get almost zero ohms.  You can poke the wires on the reel wiper boards or the plug connections ... whatever is easiest for ya.

if you have almost zero ohms, the reel wipers are completing the circuit and your problem is one of:
- wire 90 connecting back thru switches to wire 60-1 is open or switches are cruddy
- wire 15 connecting to the 5 trace on the payout counter - that'd be plug connections
- payout counter not powering the payout relay - 5 trace thru the wipers to the payout relay coil or the payout relay coil is bad.

in other words, when a win is detected the circuit from wire 60-1 (which you know is ok since the handle released) to the payout relay coil needs to be closed/completed.  You can find where it's open with a voltmeter or jumper wire. 

if you are careful to isolate circuits, and ohmeter can be used ... but be aware that a reading of a few ohms or more probably means you are measuring a roundabout path thru coils, lamps, the transformer, precharge resistors, etc.  If you expect a closed path, you want almost zero ohms.

[Ombuds_John]

That explains a lot.  I need to try to get the correct wiring diagram.  My machine does not have replay register, or bell.  There is one key switch down low on right side.  There are two button switches inside door at right top - one is power on/off and the other is unknown to me. It may be a reset of some sort.  Where can I find the wiring diagrams.  I am very new to this forum and this is my first electromechanical slot machine, although I have worked on shooting galleries, pinballs, bowling machines, etc.  I understand the wiring color codes, although it is new to me.  This slot has incorrect glass on top, although the jackpot amounts and symbols are correct.  Excuse my terminology, as I am a newbie.  Thanks!

[DavidLee]

Manually reset the coin payout unit. As to eliminate any malfunction.

[Ombuds_John]

That may be where my current problem is coming from.  I just adjusted it and I don’t know where the contacts are supposed to rest.  Here is how it is now. When I got it the contacts were on the “2”.

[DavidLee]

Adjust contacts to rest on the receiving strips.
Run the machine and observe the payout amounts.
If the machine pays more or less then contacts need to be slightly adjusted.

If the machine pays less, contacts need to be adjusted slightly backwards.
The reverse if it pays to much.

[Ombuds_John]

DavidLee, I appreciate the advice. I have adjusted it and that solved some problems, but new have arisen.  Must analaize.

[DavidLee]

Par for the course.
Problems will arise after a machine gets running again.
Best to make not more than two adjustments / changes at one time.

[wolftalk]

I think I have a schematic and maybe other paperwork for an 891-14 ... that game didn't have a replay register.  It does still have an odds motor ... does your game have that? (it's a motor driven unit with cams and switches - probably in the top compartment)

it'll take a few days to process the scans and get them posted onto https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

the 891 used a reset-and-pay-again system to do payout mutiplication.  The basic idea is:

- the first coin resets the odds unit, trips the coin relay and releases the handle
- successive coins step up the odds unit (rotate the wipers one position)
- when you spin and win, the game pays.  Pay ends when the wipers on the payout counter you adjusted step off the end of the energized trace
- if you played multiple coins,  the odds follower relay powers, which causes the payout counter to reset and the odds follower unit to step up
- the game pays again

the reset and pay again happens N-1 times, where N is the number of coins played.  Eventually the odds follower unit will step to a position where the odds follower relay does not power and the reset/pay again process stops.

so get the pays working for 1 coin first, then payout multiplication problems would not be related to the win detection circuits.

[Ombuds_John]

When I reset the payout

Adjust contacts to rest on the receiving strips.
Run the machine and observe the payout amounts.
If the machine pays more or less then contacts need to be slightly adjusted.

If the machine pays less, contacts need to be adjusted slightly backwards.
The reverse if it pays to much.

I reset the payout manually.  When I power up, it immediately spits out 14 coins on losing spins.  Then each time I play one coin, again it spits out 14 coins.  The payout lands in position shown in photo.

[Ombuds_John]

I think I have a schematic and maybe other paperwork for an 891-14 ... that game didn't have a replay register.  It does still have an odds motor ... does your game have that? (it's a motor driven unit with cams and switches - probably in the top compartment)

Yes, one motor/cam unit in top.

[Ombuds_John]

Par for the course.
Problems will arise after a machine gets running again.
Best to make not more than two adjustments / changes at one time.

That’s some sound advice!

[wolftalk]

I reset the payout manually.  When I power up, it immediately spits out 14 coins on losing spins.  Then each time I play one coin, again it spits out 14 coins.  The payout lands in position shown in photo.

green/red wire 41 on the 14 trace is shorted to wire 30 somehow. 

pull out the hopper and stick one probe on wire 70, the other probe on wire 41 and see if you have 50VAC.  If you do, the problem is not on the hopper.

hopper plug chart for the 891-14 is below.  You'd want to confirm the wiring is the same as your game.

[DavidLee]

In regards to the payout unit not returning.
Manually step it up 20 or so times.
Then manually reset the unit by pushing the coil plunger in on the reset coil.
Located bottom left opposite side of the unit.
(A pencil works well for the task.)

Observe how far and at what speed the cam returns.

Possible causes would be lack of lubricant, spring adjustment or obstruction.

[Ombuds_John]

Wiring seems to match.  With hopper removed there is no 50V between these.  41 wire does not seem to be shorted to anything as I hooked my probe to it and tested all the connectors.  I also unhooked the 41 wire from the board and then everything worked (basically). So, short only present when hopper is plugged in.

[Ombuds_John]

In regards to the payout unit not returning.
Manually step it up 20 or so times.
Then manually reset the unit by pushing the coil plunger in on the reset coil.

It’s reseting, but upon every pull it just pays out 14 coins.  It must reset when you pull the handle, correct? Then it pays out another 14. When I disconnected the 41 (14 pay) wire from the board, it worked.  So there must be a short in that line somewhere, as Wolftalk pointed out. It looks like that wire goes to the reels next, but I haven’t figured out how all that works yet.

[DavidLee]

The reel index disc wipers and boards set the continuity for payouts when a winning combination is made.

This is pertaining to the wiper board wiring.
Its possible that a strand of wire is shorting or one of the silver connecting wires is bent.
Inspect every solder joint and silver jumper wire closely in this area carefully.

A way to eliminate the right two boards, would be to disconnect the solid gray wire on the far right board.
The jump it to the 2 pay cherries I believe is red and white wire on the far left board.
Run the machine and observe what happens on the next payout, cherries or otherwise.

Photo shows solid gray second from the right. Your machine may vary.
But most of the time the gray is located on the top row left or right.

[wolftalk]

while you're working on the 14 pay problem, can you please take/post/email to slotpics@cdyn.com highest possible resolution pictures of the plug connections to the top compartment?  My 891-14 schematic has damage and I need generate the plug chart.  My schem has a 22 and 24 pin connector, and I need to verify wire colors on the plugs.

for the 14 pay problem, you unhooked the 41 wire from the 14 trace on the payout counter and the payouts stopped, but when you put voltmeter probes on wires 41 and 70 on the hopper socket in the cabinet you did not see 50V?

the game is more-or-less wired with one side of 50V coil connected directly to wire 70 and the other side of the coil needs a closed path to wire 30. 

in this case, the win detection is powering the payout relay.  One lug of the payout relay coil is wire 70, the other lug is connected thru wipers on the payout counter up to the reel wiper boards, and if the reel wipers are completing a path to grey wire 90, 90 in turn goes back through a few more switches to 30.

usually the problem is on the reel wiper boards, but if that was the case you'd see 50V between wire 70 and wire 41 at the end of any spin regardless of where the reels stopped.

on the hopper, wire 41 goes from the 14 trace to the hopper plug and nowhere else.  The only possible shorts would be at the hopper plug or along the length of the wire (wire insulation cut thru by the edge of the frame or a component). 

if you disconnected the 41 wire from the hopper plug and have the problem, you know the issue is on the hopper.  It's kinda a hassle to unsolder tho since you often have to dismount the plug, so I'd definitely verify you have 50V between wire 41 and 70 first.  Use jumper wires and hang them outside the cabinet so you can attach your meter probes to them after shoving the hopper back in.

you can also check for very low ohms between wire 41 and the unit frame with the hopper out of the game.

[wolftalk]

below is my guess at the insert plug connections ... at least on an 891-14.

the green highlights should be right.  The red numbers are all correct wire id's from the schematic and are likely right IF the numbering order was always increasing.  Occasionally that didn't work out for them when they made a variation of a model.

if you can compare to your machine or post a pic of your plugs, that'd help and I can finish the schematic.

[Ombuds_John]

while you're working on the 14 pay problem, can you please take/post/email to slotpics@cdyn.com highest possible resolution pictures of the plug connections to the top compartment?  My 891-14 schematic has damage and I need generate the plug chart.  My schem has a 22 and 24 pin connector, and I need to verify wire colors on the plugs.

I’ve been out of commission with COVID-19 for a few days, and I also got distracted by a safe cracking project.  I will send photos soon.  My brain is still a bit fuzzy so this project is being delayed.