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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Rod71 on September 22, 2020, 10:55:02 PM
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Hi there. I'm Rod from Australia, and I've just picked up a 1973 Circus that kind of works.
It's my first Bally EM, so I need to do some research which will let me communicate better with those in the know :)
I'm a pinball guy with experience in early Solid State Bally (not much help with this lol) and I know the basics of how EM pinballs operate. I also have a late 60s Australian Aristocrat mechanical slot with payout slides.
OK so I will make a list of what I believe are my issues, and once I get a little more knowledge under my belt, I will come back and sort through them :)
* Reel symbols seem to be sitting a little high. - Fixed
* Reel bundle seems to have a lot of slop in the shaft, like there's a locking tab on each side which may not be engaged properly. - Fixed
* Hold and draw feature does not work. There are 3 wires cut from the dashpot switch that lead to a relay. - Fixed
* Bell wires have been cut
* Random underpaying of coins (see below)
* After a win, the next few pulls you can hear a 2 second buzz from the rear of the hopper as soon as the reels kick. If you get another win while it's in "buzz mode" it will underpay. 1 coin for a cherry, 3 or 4 coins instead of 5. 8 instead of 10 etc. - Fixed
If you play a few times without winning and it stops buzzing, the next pay will be correct.
Thats all I can think of at the moment. The tunnel target feature works. But underpays because of the above mentioned issue I'm thinking.
OK, better start studying :)
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paperwork and bally manuals can be downloaded from http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ (http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/)
the w-1046-1160* file in the 931-A directory is the schematic. My listing says the model number is 931-A for thr 1160 schem. The schem just says 931 on it. What's on your serial number plate below the handle?
if you get a chance, please email to slotpics@cdyn.com (or stick someplace for download) highest possible resolution pictures of top glass, reel glass and as many internal pics as you like. The size limits on this forum are inconvenient.
1] reel symbols sitting high and reel bundle loose
make sure the reels are in right first. Lift up the locking tabs on the shafts and stick the shaft in. The tabs sit above the center line of the shaft when let go and push the shaft forward/down into the notch.
2] draw buttons
see schem. Yell if you aren't familiar with the bally EM schems. They are the same style as the pinball ones.
3] bell wires
looks like the bell rings the entire duration of the larger top glass payouts and any payout with target on reel 3. I'd at least put in a quick disconnect or a switch so the bell can be enabled if you want.
4] underpay
make sure the payout counter unit on the hopper resets the wipers all the way. If the unit is cruddy, the wipers may be sticking and you are hearing the reset coil powering and holding too long because the "0" switch on the unit isn't opening. The wipers should whizz back to reset position without dragging. Clean the contact plate with green scrub pad and alcohol and see if that's good enough. If the white ratchet is gummed up with dried lube, you'll need to take things apart and clean all that off. No lube needed on the ratchet.
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Thanks mate, really appreciate the link and info.
I'll certainly take a bunch of pics and forward them on to you. Not a problem.
Here's a pic of the serial plate under the handle. I'll start looking into issues within the next few days :)
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interesting serial number plate ... usually the top box has the model number and the lower box the serial number.
if that's the only plate you have on the cabinet, it looks like bally had a different scheme for the ireland plates.
I have info on a 931-A and 931-B, and schem for -A. Whether you have one of those or a different variation depends on the symbols on reel tapes 1 and 3. The payout counter and reel wipers are the same for the -A and -B, the difference was the glass, reel tapes and slotted reel index discs (they match the tapes).
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Interesting with the A and B models. I will make a list of reels 1 and 3 to see what we have :)
OK, so reel hub is now locked in correctly. The 2 locking tabs were floating above the hub, so that explains a lot as far as sloppiness and poor spinning goes. But it didn't solve the reels sitting a little high off the centre line. If you look at the pics below, it appears that the reel or reel strips are not in alignment with the latching wheel grooves.
I've also included a pic of my late 60s Aristocrat Money Tree. Not sure if these made it to the USA back in the day or not.
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Great success! After my last post I was reading down the list of threads and found a tip on the 809 N thread. basically I slowly and carefully manipulated the reel strips themselves until they slid down into position. Much better.
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Great success! After my last post I was reading down the list of threads and found a tip on the 809 N thread. basically I slowly and carefully manipulated the reel strips themselves until they slid down into position. Much better.
snug down a few of the crimps and the tapes will stay put. Grab the reel tin and slotted index disc and make sure they can't move relative to each other. If they do, the screws are loose.
is the aristocrat mechanical? I don't have any paperwork on them, but recall some were purely mechanical (except lighting) and some had hoppers even though they were all regal 22 models.
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Yeah the Aristocrat is mechanical. The hopper versions are considered boat anchors as they run on some kind of 24V relay boards that nobody knows how to fix. So you see them being sold around and around in circles to people with high hopes of getting them running :)
OK, great tip regarding the reel tapes and crimps, I will address that.
I have made a list of the reel symbals so we can figure out what model it is. Looking at the list, you can see that the odds of getting 3 Bally's are the same as getting 3 horses, tigers or monkeys, but the payouts are different. Man, thats a bit rude!
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you have a 931-A ... or -B :-)
the -A was an 81.43% payback machine. The -B had a version with the same payback as well as a 78.60% version.
the -B may have some extra stuff for danish coins and had different glasses, but otherwise the rest of the stuff is the same.
the top glass in the -A was G-389-2-c, and the -B was G-389-3. Sometimes those numbers are screened onto the back side of the glass.
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Ah there ya go. Interesting that it's dated 1971. Figured the game was from 1973, hmmm
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OK, moving on to the hopper pay board. The green wheel is spring loaded. If you advance it by hand counter clockwise, should it snap right back? Mine doesn't, it's very sluggish.
I cleaned the tracks with rubbing alcohol and cue tips which helped a little, as it seems to return home a little quicker now. Do I need to use something more aggressive, or is it gummed up behind the wheel.
Hmm, so just did some trials. Forced a 50 coin pay, and looked at the pay wheel. Wipers were in correct position. installed hopper and spun it up. Coil buzzed for a couple of seconds. Inspected hopper again and wipers were almost home. It took a couple more spins for it to stop buzzing, so it appears it's just falling short from getting back to home even after a 50 coin win.
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get a little more aggressive. I green scrub pad (or 0000 synthetic steel wool) and alcohol works. Pretty much anything that doesn't scratch the trace but removes the black track marks.
if that's not good enough, the other things that slow down the reset:
1] dried grease in various places. More disassembly is needed to clean it off. If you wind up removing the white nylon ratchet/gear, clean the gear shaft and hole. No lube is needed on it.
2] the torsion spring that resets the ratchet can be gummed up. Alcohol is good to decrud so the coils don't stick to each other
3] if it's whizzing back to reset ok, but stopping a little short of the zero stop bumper (what the grey trangular thing hits), see if the zero switches have too much tension. Especially the upper one.
4] the wipers are pressing onto the traces too hard. You have to remove the wipers and bend them all up to a consistent height. Too light a pressure and you'll have underpay problems tho.
while practically any lube on the metal-on-metal interfaces works, some will gum up faster than others. I usually use a teflon-impregnated lube like Tri-flow and stay away from thicker greases on things you don't want to bog down.
if you do remove the torsion spring, reset the unit and count how many turns of tension are on it. Too loose and the unit won't reset all the way. Too tight and it can't step up all the way. Factory set it to 2 turns.
if nothing else works, you can put a thin film of lubricant on the traces. Many contact cleaner/lubes use a pure mineral oil as the lube. Wet finger and smear on is usually good enough to make the wipers whizz back to reset from any position if the other possible issues are taken care of. Originally bally said not to lube the traces, then the 2600 manual in 1975 said "a very small amount of lubrication is recommended. A drop of fine oil on your finger, wipe around, then wipe off with clean cloth ... ".
I guess you have the -A model. One of the few times having info on the glass actually helped. Apparently a lot of earlier glass doesn't have the part number on it - or it's harder to find.
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Fantastic tips! Thank you so much :)
So I hit the tracks with a green pad and rubbing alcohol. I also adjusted the zero switches, and it's working MUCH better. Not perfect, but another little switch tweak and I reckon it'll be good.
I'd still like to give the mech a little clean at the rear though. Is there a way to access the rear of it without actually pulling it apart?
On another note. I managed to spin up 3 tigers which should have paid 100 coins but didn't do anything. I figured I'd better test the next 2 highest pays. (Monkeys 150 and Bally 200) and they didn't pay either. Do you need a certain amount of coins in the hopper to allow the higher pays to work?. What is the purpose of the ball on the end of the rod with a microswitch?.
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I'd still like to give the mech a little clean at the rear though. Is there a way to access the rear of it without actually pulling it apart?
not sure what you mean. To get to the coil side, remove the top nut/screw on the right of the unit frame and loosen the bottom one, then you can pivot the unit down to get to the back.
if you aren't happy with the wiper motion yet, I'll remove the torsion spring on the back, then remove the outboard wiper carriage on the front. Clean the old grease off the pegs and carriage surfaces, and also remove the grey triangular stop piece and clean the peg and hole. No lube needed on plastic->metal parts, tho some people use a little. Also clean the crud off the payout counter wiper contacts.
with the carriage off, you can spin the wipers and see how easily they turn. If still seems sticky, then remove the center screw and take off the wipers. Spin the ratchet...it that seems sticky, time to remove it. You may have to remove a switch stack if it's blocking you.
the golf ball float rod and microswitch in the hopper control the coin diverter mechanism on the coin door. When the coin level in the hopper gets high enough, the microswitch toggles and the diverter sends coins directly to the overflow chute instead of into the hopper.
if you don't have enough coins in the hopper for a pay, eventually the safety circuit will time out because the payout counter isn't stepping (no coins being ejected). When time-out happens, the mains power to the transformer is turned off and only a red light behind the hopper will be on. You have to push the flat bar that is under the hopper unit to reset the safety timer. You know the win is detected if the hopper turns on.
some wins not detecting could either be a problem with wiper->trace contact on the payout counter, or wiper-> rivet contact on the reel wiper boards. The alcohol and scrub pad will clean the wiper board rivets. Check wiper alignment on the rivets and adjust as best you can by loosening the wiper assembly and shifting it around on the arm. Could also be cruddy pins on the reel mech or hopper plugs.
if still not detecting some wins, it's easiest to yank the hopper (oops) reel mech and use an ohmeter on the plug pins and the chart on the schematic ... once you figure out the orientation of the plugs vs. the chart by looking at wire colors. E.g. look for red/green wire 14 on a corner pin and that's pin 1. Pins 18-14 not used on one of the reel plugs also makes it easier :-)
anyway, looking at the schem you see the 100 trace on the payout counter is wire 81. The 50V power is wire 90. Set up your 3 tiger win and use the ohmeter on plug pins with wires 90 and 81. If you don't see almost zero ohms, you've got a problem on the reel mech. If you do see almost zero ohms, problem is in the plug sockets or on the hopper/payout counter.
make sense?
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not sure what you mean. To get to the coil side, remove the top nut/screw on the right of the unit frame and loosen the bottom one, then you can pivot the unit down to get to the back.
Yeah thats what I read in my studies so far. But the bar with spring that steps up the wheel won't allow it to pivot forward?. (see attached pic) I feel I'm missing something simple, but I'd rather look like a rookie than dive in and screw it up lol.
As for the payout issues. Yes I understand the process. I will check out the mech shortly. So far I have confirmed continuity from the 100 coin position on the payout wheel to the associated connector pin on the back of the hopper.
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oops.
pull down the spring and you can detach the linkage bar from the roller pivot shaft. The spring is all that's holding those two pieces together.
also fixed another word in previous post.
if the hopper to plug pin looks good, and the circuit between two reel mech pins look good, that just leaves the plug connections and the wires between them. I usually leave a probe clipped to a reel contact plate lug and stick the reel mech back in, then probe the female hopper socket or the payout counter trace if I can reach it.
anyway, sounds like you have the right idea.
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oops.
pull down the spring and you can detach the linkage bar from the roller pivot shaft. The spring is all that's holding those two pieces together.
also fixed another word in previous post.
if the hopper to plug pin looks good, and the circuit between two reel mech pins look good, that just leaves the plug connections and the wires between them. I usually leave a probe clipped to a reel contact plate lug and stick the reel mech back in, then probe the female hopper socket or the payout counter trace if I can reach it.
anyway, sounds like you have the right idea.
Ha! I knew it was something simple with the linkage bar :)
OK. so with the 3 tigers payout of 100. I have verified the mech is good. All 3 wipers and rivets buzz out to the right side connector pin 22.
Pin 22 on the right and pin 14 on the left show zero ohms
Removing both mechs we have continuity between Pin 22 om the female reel socket and pin 28 on the hopper female socket.
On the hopper I have continuity between the 100 coin trace and pin 28 on the hopper connector. So that all looks good.
Now it starts getting interesting. I haven't verified the mech as far as the non working monkeys and Bally pays of 150 and 200. But I did start at the hopper, and found that the 150 track buzzed out fine with pin 13 on the back of the hopper. Then I tried the 200 track with pin 19 and there was nothing!. So thats an issue.
I'm wondering if the 200 pay not working will stop the 150 and 100 pays from working when they verify as complete circuits. The 3 highest pays seem to be seperated from the regular pays on the schematic, but I'm not sure what the relationship is. hmmm
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Now it starts getting interesting. I haven't verified the mech as far as the non working monkeys and Bally pays of 150 and 200. But I did start at the hopper, and found that the 150 track buzzed out fine with pin 13 on the back of the hopper. Then I tried the 200 track with pin 19 and there was nothing!. So thats an issue.
I'm wondering if the 200 pay not working will stop the 150 and 100 pays from working when they verify as complete circuits. The 3 highest pays seem to be seperated from the regular pays on the schematic, but I'm not sure what the relationship is. hmmm
if you are probing on the trace surface where the wiper touches, then a light touch of the probe should work. If poking the solder/wire or pad area around the solder blob, then you may need to dig the probe in a little to get thru any surface oxidation.
when checking the hopper with an ohmeter, go from the plug pin to the F trace on the payout counter disc. e.g. for the tiger pay, wire 81 (pin 28) to wire 93 on the F trace. That will check the wiper connection also.
the schematic is graphically correct on how the payout counter works, so nope, an issue with the 200 trace/wiper/wire won't affect any other payout. However, if the outboard carriage wiper finger that is running on the F trace isn't making good contact (bottom finger in top pair), none of the pays using the outboard wipers will work (100, 150, 200)
wires do break off the plug end, and cold solder joints happen. Tug on the wire and reflow the solder if there appears to be a crack around the joint.
tmi below
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the large pays use the outboard wipers because they move more slowly than the main wiper span as the payout counter is stepped. The payout counter can step 100 times before the main wipers have gone 360 degrees and are back where they started, so the unit can't pay 100+ coins using the main wipers. The spiral and outboard carriage wipers can track more than 900 degrees of main wiper rotation, but there's a gotcha.
since the outboard wipers move slowly and a bit sloppily, they cannot be used the end the payout at exactly the right amount. Instead, the outboard wipers keep payout going until it's close to the end, then the carry-over (C.O.) trace on the main wipers takes over to finish the pay to the correct amount.
e.g. for a 100 pay, the outboard wiper finger should step off the 100 trace at around step 85 of the unit - +/- a few steps - the wiper on the CO trace will keep the circuit active unit it steps off the CO trace at exactly the 100th step of the payout counter.
if you ever needed to adjust the outboard wipers, you position them to step off the pay trace around 15 steps early. Step payout counter to exact pay amount, grab the carriage and shift it back-n-forth to make sure the outboard wiper finger cannot touch the pay trace.
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Success! All 3 missing pays now working!
The top set of contacts that attach to the 100 coin track were ever so slightly floating off the track. So there was no continuity between those 2 contacts and the lower 2 contacts for the 150 and 200 coin tracks linked via the white wire. Happy days!
Mate, Thank you so much for all your amazing advice so far, I really appreciate it :)
Next up is the dreaded hold and draw with cut wires. Might have a look at this one over the weekend. Better get some fuses handy lol.
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the white wire connects all the outboard fingers together. The most important wiper finger is the second one down from the top ... that's on the (F)eed trace that goes to the payout relay. If that isn't contacting the trace, none of the 100, 150 or 200 pays will detect.
the hold-and-draw is surprisingly simple. Hopefully all the pieces are still on the reel mech and you just need to reconnect the button wires. There's exploded parts diagrams for the hold-n-draw in the bally 2600 manual, but how it actually locks the reels I don't remember.
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the white wire connects all the outboard fingers together. The most important wiper finger is the second one down from the top ... that's on the (F)eed trace that goes to the payout relay. If that isn't contacting the trace, none of the 100, 150 or 200 pays will detect.
Yep, that is exactly what the issue was. I thought it was odd that all 3 wouldn't work, and figured they had to be related somehow :)
the hold-and-draw is surprisingly simple. Hopefully all the pieces are still on the reel mech and you just need to reconnect the button wires. There's exploded parts diagrams for the hold-n-draw in the bally 2600 manual, but how it actually locks the reels I don't remember.
The 3 hold coils are there, as well as the cancel coil. There's 3 wires cut from the dashpot switch. So as well as the hold feature not working, the insert coin light comes on as soon as you pull the handle, instead of at the end of the cycle.
Generally, people cut wires for a reason. The chances of it working after reconnecting the wires are slim I'm thinking. Oh, The wires to the jackpot bell were cut as well. I hooked them up, but it still doesn't work. Haven't looked into that one yet.
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post pics of what's cut if ya get stuck.
disabling hold-n-draw may have been done just to reduce the game payback percentage.
if you can post pics of how the hold actually works, that'd be great too.
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disabling hold-n-draw may have been done just to reduce the game payback percentage.
I was thinking that. But you'd think it would have a negative effect on takings if the main feature of a game is disabled. Although these Bally machines have a dubious history in Australia. Brought in by organised crime syndicates with links to the mafia in an attempt to take over from the existing Australian companies (Aristocrat and Jubilee) as the slot machine industry wasn't regulated at the time.
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Hmmm, interesting issue just popped up. It's starting to give 2 pulls for 1 coin. The coin accepted light comes on just as the reels kick, and it lets you spin again. It doesn't keep doing it though. You need to coin up every second pull. It's also a bit random but getting worse. The only thing I have done is remove a door plug so I could get behind the belly glass and change the bulbs to 47s
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coin accept light turns on when the coin relay on the left/bottom of the reel mech trips.
see if there's a problem with it latching up ... it gets physically reset by a linkage that moves when the main shaft that winds up the mechanism turns.
your reels may be kicking too early and the coin relay is not getting latched up. The handle release is a side effect of the coin relay being tripped.
the kick timing is controlled by an L-shaped stop bracket on the bottom/right/back edge of the reel mech. If the bracket is too far back, the reels kick early. bracket too far forward and the handle bottoms out before the kick - and is stuck down ... you have to manually release the handle or move the latch pawl with a long screwdriver to kick off.
the manuals usually have pages with lots of dimensions and adjustments for the right side of the reel mech. All that really matters is the long shaft with the spring around it is adjusted so the peg on the front gears slides into the handle fork, the forward nut on that shaft is adjusted so there's a little free play before the back stuff moves, and the stop bracket is positioned so the game kicks when the handle is almost all the way down. If you have to slam the handle down to get the kick off, the stop bracket needs to go back a bit.
that back edge of the stop bracket is usually aligned with the unit frame edge or a little bit forward of the edge.
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coin accept light turns on when the coin relay on the left/bottom of the reel mech trips.
see if there's a problem with it latching up ... it gets physically reset by a linkage that moves when the main shaft that winds up the mechanism turns.
Bingo!
Cleaned some crud off it and it's good to go. Interesting if that happened out in the field back in the day. Not like anyone would report that they are getting 2 for the price of 1. Though crud build up wasn't likely while they were in service I guess.
On another note. How available is top glass and reel glass for these old girls?. Do people repro them like pinball backglass?. How about the metal belly glass frame?
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the cabinet parts like the belly glass frame are usually easier to find than the glass itself. Rechroming is also an option.
I think coos has done some slot glass - Bally Bingo specials (coos.net) (http://coos.net/bingo_e/story_glass_printing.html) - it's not a cheap process, but all your glass is unique.
other pinball repro guys are worth a shot too, but pay attention to how they are doing it and what compromises result - usually colors that aren't as bright.
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Bingo!
Cleaned some crud off it and it's good to go. Interesting if that happened out in the field back in the day. Not like anyone would report that they are getting 2 for the price of 1. Though crud build up wasn't likely while they were in service I guess.
Ugh. Famous last words lol. It was working great yesterday, but today it's started acting up again and is now pretty much stuck on free play. With the mech out the coin relay latches itself without an issue, either by hand, or manually cycling the mech (damn you gotta push hard lol) I have a feeling there's a dirty/now stuck switch somewhere. The switches on the coin relay look and operate as they should.
I made a video of the relay snapping back to coin accepted as the reels kick.
https://youtu.be/dS5D6plMexk (https://youtu.be/dS5D6plMexk)
Oh I think I have confirmed it's electrical and not a mechanical issue. So when it's in coin accepted mode, I switch the machine off, pull the handle and it goes to game over mode and locks the handle. Switch the machine back on and it goes directly to coin accepted.
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the only thing powering the coin relay is the coin switch....coin trip wire isn't stuck down (or not raising all the way up), is it? Usually you can hear it click when you move the trip wire down/up.
there's a switch on the coin relay with blue/red wire 21-1 and black/yellow wire 83 going to the coin relay coil. Switch not shorted to adjacent blades? Try putting paper between the contacts and seeing if the coin relay stops tripping.
check the reel plug wire 21-1 for issues. If that looks ok, check the door plug.
you can also stick a voltmeter on wire 21-1 on the coin switch. Other probe on orange wire 70 - coin diverter coil is a handy place to poke that wire. You should only see 50VAC when the coin switch trip wire is down.
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the only thing powering the coin relay is the coin switch....coin trip wire isn't stuck down (or not raising all the way up), is it? Usually you can hear it click when you move the trip wire down/up.
Is the coin switch on the left of the coin mech?. there's no wire as such, just a microswitch which doesn't appear to be stuck. *see attached pic) There's a microswitch with trip wire below it which appears to advance the counter on the reel mech when activated when it's already coined up.
there's a switch on the coin relay with blue/red wire 21-1 and black/yellow wire 83 going to the coin relay coil. Switch not shorted to adjacent blades? Try putting paper between the contacts and seeing if the coin relay stops tripping.
It looks ok https://youtu.be/VIRW8lGDi1I (https://youtu.be/VIRW8lGDi1I) I've only cleaned the switches with alcohol and a business card, as I don't have the proper file. I put a piece of paper between the contacts on the first switch and it stopped the relay tripping when I put the mech back in.
check the reel plug wire 21-1 for issues. If that looks ok, check the door plug.
Yep, wire 21-1 looks good on the reel plug. This issue started sporadically after I removed the door plug (pic attached) to remove the belly glass. It's progressively gotten worse and now it's stuck. I've removed the plug and it looks OK. I've cleaned the pins and reseated it without any luck.
you can also stick a voltmeter on wire 21-1 on the coin switch. Other probe on orange wire 70 - coin diverter coil is a handy place to poke that wire. You should only see 50VAC when the coin switch trip wire is down.
Yep, I'll hive that a try once I verify where the coin switch is lol
Edit. OK, so the coin switch is indeed the same switch that advances the meter on the reel mech. Trip wire is in position and travels fine.
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Yep, wire 21-1 looks good on the reel plug. This issue started sporadically after I removed the door plug (pic attached) to remove the belly glass. It's progressively gotten worse and now it's stuck. I've removed the plug and it looks OK. I've cleaned the pins and reseated it without any luck.
aha! ok, I have no idea why that would matter, but pull the door plug again and see what the coin relay does. If it stops tripping, stick your meter probe on the 21-1 wire in the plug and wire 70 and see if you have 50V.
the coin switch could be bad, but it'd be unusual to fail by shorting 21-1 to 74-1 (orange/green). If the coin relay is tripped, you can with power off use an ohmeter between those two wires on the coin switch and see what you get. Should only have zero ohms when the trip wire is down.
also look at the wiring harness from the plug to the coin switch and make sure 21-1 isn't shorting to something (insulation cut be sharp edge or wire at coin switch shorting to adjacent terminal.
just to make sure, the trip wire tip isn't touching the mech frame and stopping it going up all the way? You can bend the wireout a little if it is too close.
don't know what the other microswitch on the side of the coin mech frame is doing. Where do the white/blue wires go?
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Ha! Go figure. The door plug which is above the one I removed holds the 21-1 wire. I removed that plug and the wire just popped straight out of the connector lol. I'm not sure what pins are required for these, or if i'll need a tool to extract the old pin. So I might just bypass the plug with a quick connect for the time being.
Not sure whats going on with that other microswitch. The wires lead to a 3rd door plug thats free floating below the other 2. I don't believe it shows up on the schematic. Well I don't recall seeing a 3rd door plug pinout anyway. Edit. OK there is a 3rd plug on the schematic with 3 wires. These 2 white and blue (52) wires are on pins 5 and 6 on the plug. Hmm
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Hmmm, well that wasn't the issue. Connected the 21-1 wire for the top plug and there was no change. So did a bit of experimenting and narrowed it down to the plug below it. The one I removed when taking off the belly glass. So I started with everything connected. removed top plug with wire 21-1. Besides a few lights not coming on, the coin relay kept tripping after every spin.
Reseated top plug and removed the one below it. Coin relay stopped tripping, but obviously won't coin up.
Plugged both back in. With machine off, played the outstanding spin to latch the coin relay. When you power back on, it will coin up once and then get stuck after the first spin. Actually ignore that. Just tried it again and it latched as soon as I powered on. hmmm
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Yep, wire 21-1 looks good on the reel plug. This issue started sporadically after I removed the door plug (pic attached) to remove the belly glass. It's progressively gotten worse and now it's stuck. I've removed the plug and it looks OK. I've cleaned the pins and reseated it without any luck.
the coin switch could be bad, but it'd be unusual to fail by shorting 21-1 to 74-1 (orange/green). If the coin relay is tripped, you can with power off use an ohmeter between those two wires on the coin switch and see what you get. Should only have zero ohms when the trip wire is down.
I think we're on to something! Definitely not zero ohms when I test it as suggested. It's starting to make sense now. When I had the belly panel glass of to change out the bulbs. I (stupidly) switches the machine on to see if all the bulbs were good. As the lamp insert panel is half hanging out from the door at this stage, I can see how that switch could have shorted out. ugh!
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Oh man. I think I'm getting close :)
It's actually wire 91 on the coin switch NC side that is the issue. When the door plugs are plugged in, the NC side of the switch is staying closed when you push the wire lever down. When you remove the 2nd door plug, 91 on the coin switch opens as as it should when pushing the wire lever down. So the actual switch seems to be OK ....Edit - However, with the second plug removed and game powered back on and handle pulled. The coin accepted light comes back on after you pull the handle, but of course the coin relay won't latch until you reseat the door plug and power up.
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uh-oh ... back up a bit :-)
there's three wires on the coin switch:
- 74-1 should be on the common terminal and connects back to neutral wire 30 on the transformer thru reel mech A-1 switch.
- 91. with trip wire up, 74-1 connects to 91 on the coin switch
- 21-1. with trip wire down, 74-1 connects to 21-1.
21-1 should never connect to 91. If you want to check with an ohmeter, either pull the reel unit or make sure the coin relay is tripped then there won't be a path thru coils makes it look like 21-1 and 91 are connected. If you were using a continuity tester or buzzer and didn't make sure the roundabout path was broken, you may see continuity/buzz depending on how much resistance the tester thinks is ok
just to make sure ... there's a wire color code chart on the top left of the schem. 21 (or 21-x) is a blue wire with red tracer stripe. 91 is grey/red.
dunno if 51-1 is a typo in your post. There is a 51-1 (white/red wire). It's in the handle release circuit and goes from a coin relay switch to a dashpot switch.
the insert is the board in the top compartment. It has a wire 51 which is also white/red. It is NOT the same wire as 51-1. That's what the -x part of the wire id is for. There's not enough wire colors combinations to have every wire unique, so they used the same color wire multiple times. Without the schematic, tracing the wire or carefully using a meter, you can't tell if the same color wire attached to two places is the same wire.
unless you have a short, the only way for the coin relay to electrically trip is to connect wire 83 on the coil terminal to wire 30 somehow. The normal path is up thru a coin relay switch to wire 21-1 and the coin switch to wire 74-1 and thru reel mech A-1 switch to 30.
if you're getting stuck and have a soldering iron, you can detach wire 21-1 from the coin switch and see if the coin relay stops tripping. If it does, something is wrong with the coin switch. If the coin relay keeps tripping, wire 21-1 or 83 is getting shorted someplace.
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dunno if 51-1 is a typo in your post. There is a 51-1 (white/red wire). It's in the handle release circuit and goes from a coin relay switch to a dashpot switch.
Dammit. Yes you are right. I have pretty ordinary eyesight and thought the grey and red wire was white and red. Ugh.
I will read over you post again tomorrow, as it's beer time now :) Thank you so much, you're a champion :)
For what it's worth I edited my previous post to reflect wire 91 instead of 51 lol. Makes sense now. Was wondering how a white/red wire was leaving the door :)
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if you're getting stuck and have a soldering iron, you can detach wire 21-1 from the coin switch and see if the coin relay stops tripping. If it does, something is wrong with the coin switch. If the coin relay keeps tripping, wire 21-1 or 83 is getting shorted someplace.
OK, so mulled over your post and it makes more sense now.
21-1 just runs from the coin switch to the first switch on the coin relay. When it opens it transfers to 83 which is attached to one side of the coil.
I have the 21-1 wire bypassing the door plug as the wire popped off the pin the other day when I was checking it out. So I didn't need to desolder it from the switch, I just removed it from my quick connect from the switch side. Yep, coin relay still latching.
So if that is the case, you're saying the issue is with 21-1 shorting somewhere, or 83 but that seems less likely as it just goes from the relay switch to the coil and is tiny. I had a quick look at that and nothing seems to be odd there. I'm still thinking back to the removal of the belly glass having something to do with it. I might remove it again and see whats going on behind there. Looks like 21-1 goes around behind the coin mech in the loom.
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21-1 just runs from the coin switch to the first switch on the coin relay. When it opens it transfers to 83 which is attached to one side of the coil.
not sure how to interpret "when it opens" on this side of the equator :-)
when the coin relay is reset, 21-1 connects to 83. As soon as the coin relay trips, 21-1 disconnects from 83 to remove power from the coil. On the 931, the coin switch trip wire raising back up after the coin is past it does the same thing.
what's the purpose of the coin relay switch connecting 21-1 to 83? I dunno. On most games wire 21-1 goes off to other places and the circuit stays powered thru other switches. For those games, the coin relay switch to disconnect the coil makes sense - no reason to keep power on the coil when it doesn't need it.
seems like they left the switch in to minimize changes from other games.
anyway, yeah, if the coin relay coil is powering when 21-1 is disconnected from the coin switch, either 21-1 or 83 is shorted to something else. Could be in the beau plugs, the model plugs to the door, the wires are cut into and touching something else, or the switch blades on the coin relay are mangled.
from what ya said, wire crushed someplace and cutting thru the insulation seems most likely.
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Finally!
So after getting annoyed with it and having a few days break, I finally figured it out. It was the bar that latches to the coil and it was ever so slightly just sticking to the coil and not breaking away once the reels kicked.
So I removed the coil from the bracket, cleaned everything up and changed the washer on the rear of the coil so there's just a tad more play between the coil and the bar. Working great! Now on to the Hold and Draw feature. If I can figure this out, it will be working 100%
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was the washer made of brass?
usually the screw and the washer between the coil and the frame are brass to reduce magnetizing the frame and armature. Residual magnetism can cause the armature to stick down on the coil top ... rarely,
I wouldn't worry about it, but if you have the problem in the future with the armature sticking and it's not crud on the parts, see if the metal has magnetized
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Yeah screw and washer weren't brass. There's like old crusty packing tape around the armature that you can see in the pic as well. Is that factory?
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I'm used to seeing a metal sleeve around the armature plate. Possibly a non-magnetic metal sleeve.
the tape should be harmless.
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Alrighty then. Moving on to the Hold and Draw feature. All wires are cut from the dashpot switch.
It's Friday night, I've had a few drinks and got a little cocky. Here's what I have found.
We have 3 cut wires left on the switch. 2 x 91's and a and 53. Then there are 2 bare lugs.
On the other side after removing the electrical tape. we have the 2 x 91 wires wrapped with the 53
Then the 51 taped up with the 25
So, with the 2 x 91 wires, does it matter which wire they are connected to on the dashpot switch?. Then I'm taking a guess and saying the 51 and 25 connect to the bare lugs. Which one goes where. Hmmm
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can't tell from the angle, but sounds like you have it right.
the dashpot looks like it has two switches....is a blade broken off?
1] 25-1 to 51-1. This one is on the schem in the handle release and hold coil circuits. Switch is NC - closed when handle up.
2] 91 to 53. Not on my schem. Can you figure out where the 53 wire is going? Don't know if the switch is NC or NO.
the 25-1 tied to 51-1 is ok and shouldn't stop the hold from working. The dash pot switch is only there to disable some stuff if someone is holding the handle down.
the 53 wire may stop your hold if it's feeding the hold coil circuit instead of something attached to wire 51-1.
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can't tell from the angle, but sounds like you have it right.
the dashpot looks like it has two switches....is a blade broken off?
Right. There's 3 switches. First 2 switches originally had 53 and 91 x 2 attached. 3rd switch has broken blades and Probably had 25-1 and 51-1 attached at some stage.
1] 25-1 to 51-1. This one is on the schem in the handle release and hold coil circuits. Switch is NC - closed when handle up.
2] 91 to 53. Not on my schem. Can you figure out where the 53 wire is going? Don't know if the switch is NC or NO.
Couldn't figure out where they are going as yet. But 25-1 goes to C2 and 51-1 goes to the coin relay as per schematic.
the 25-1 tied to 51-1 is ok and shouldn't stop the hold from working. The dash pot switch is only there to disable some stuff if someone is holding the handle down.
the 53 wire may stop your hold if it's feeding the hold coil circuit instead of something attached to wire 51-1.
That makes sense. So now I've discovered a tiny 70 wire with resistor attached on the draw relay. One side is broken from a lug. Which one I'm not sure.
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the resistor is 8200 ohm, 1/2 watt. Not on the schematic I have.
I'll take a look at some other hold and draw games tomorrow and see if they show a resistor on draw relay bits.
got a picture of the top or side of the relay that shows the part number and diagram?
the orange sleeves are just insulating the bare metal resistor legs. The color isn't significant, so don't associate the resistor with wire 70.
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OK strange times indeed
So I followed the schematic and noticed 25-1 goes to C2. When C2 opens it transfers to 57-4 which leads to the payout relay via pin 4 on the left side reel mech plug. Everything buzzed out OK to this pin, but the pin was a little sunken compared to the ones around it. So I straightened it out and put everything back together. I didn't give it a second thought until this morning and figured I'd change out the #63 "Hold" lamp behind the reel glass. I doubt that had anything to do with it, but it started working.
https://youtu.be/MJCpIz2mJss (https://youtu.be/MJCpIz2mJss)
So it was working great for a little while, and now I can hear the hold relay disengaging mid way through the spin cycle.
https://youtu.be/Owt7Img2zDc (https://youtu.be/Owt7Img2zDc)
Probably not related, but the 1st reel hold button light appears to have a bad ground or something, as it's coming on during the spin cycle, and also if you push on the door.
OK, further observation which I will have to come back and add to this post if it does it again. After leaving the game switched off for say an hour. The hold and draw feature works great for 5 to 10 minutes and then starts acting up. I'm thinking heat related, but it's got me scratching my head lol.
OK, so it wasn't heat related lol
Turns out it was the top "home" switch on the payout disc. Without the hold and draw feature working it was operating just fine. But with the hold and draw feature working, the switch needed a little tweaking to close just a fraction earlier when the payout disc resets after a win.
Now to stop that 1st reel hold light from flickering during play, and we're all set :)
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if the brown/blue 62 wire is one of the draw relay coil lugs ... and it probably is ... then typically the other end of the resistor would go on yellow wire 30.
none of the hold-n-draw schems I have show a resistor there. Maybe someone added it because they didn't figure out the payout counter close-at-zero switch needed tweaking and they thought partially powering the draw relay coil all the time would help.
if the close-at-zero switch isn't working, the draw relay won't hold itself powered (it should be powered if previous spin was loser) and hold-n-draw won't work. I think fixing that switch was the fix for your problem.
there's only one switch causing the held light on reel 1 to light. It's called the "#1 reel switch" and has yellow wire 30 and orange/red wire 71-2 on it's blades. I'd guess the switch is on the reel mech someplace.
if the flickering held light just started, you may have created the problem when replacing the #63 lamp. Check the lamp socket and look for a problem with the 71-2 wire from the socket to the door plug.
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if the brown/blue 62 wire is one of the draw relay coil lugs ... and it probably is ... then typically the other end of the resistor would go on yellow wire 30.
none of the hold-n-draw schems I have show a resistor there. Maybe someone added it because they didn't figure out the payout counter close-at-zero switch needed tweaking and they thought partially powering the draw relay coil all the time would help.
if the close-at-zero switch isn't working, the draw relay won't hold itself powered (it should be powered if previous spin was loser) and hold-n-draw won't work. I think fixing that switch was the fix for your problem.
Makes sense. I'll leave it disconnected as it's working as it should. Goes to show how important the schematics are :)
there's only one switch causing the held light on reel 1 to light. It's called the "#1 reel switch" and has yellow wire 30 and orange/red wire 71-2 on it's blades. I'd guess the switch is on the reel mech someplace.
Right. There's switches next to or under the hold coils on every reel. I'll check it out.
So of course once everything was working great, it didn't take long for another issue to pop up lol. the 2nd reel started randomly sticking
https://youtu.be/kQXVDn9aYJw (https://youtu.be/kQXVDn9aYJw)
It wasn't related to the hold and draw, as you could play it 5 times without holding and it would suddenly stick. Didn't really matter what symbol it was either. So very random.
I put some light oil on the wiper rivets, and also cleaned up some pivot points on the 2nd reel mech from underneath. It's working fine now, so I guess I was on the right track :)
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you probably have more things that can go wrong due to the hold-n-draw, but if the first reel is spinning fine and one of the others latches too fast sometimes, usually the problem is the latch pawl.
latch pawl (red arrow in pic below) needs to pivot easily on the shaft. The long spring should snap it back when you let go. The ledge on the pawl is what's holding the wiper arm back after the kick-off and allowing the reel to spin.
when the timer link (green arrow) slides rearward, it rotates the pawl and the wiper arm snaps forward as soon as the ledge disengages to stop the reel.
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Great explanation, thank you!