New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Phan000 on February 21, 2021, 07:30:53 AM
-
Drove way farther than I would care to admit to pick up this cool 889 yesterday.
Cleaned and lubed the reel mech this morning.
The reel stops seem to engage immediately most of the time.
If I lift the black lever in the photo and rest it on the top notch, then finish pushing the reels, they seem to operate normally 75% of the time.
(https://i.imgur.com/Xmpd6N2.jpg)
What should I look at?
Thanks.
https://youtu.be/RGieESkHaQ0 (https://youtu.be/RGieESkHaQ0)
(https://i.imgur.com/5oxS5VQ.jpg)
-
usually that's caused by the reels kicking off too early - the timer links haven't latched yet.
try moving the stop bracket (J in below) left to make the kick happen later. If you move it too far, the handle will bottom out and be stuck down. You can push the latch pawl (O) with a long screwdriver to make the game kick and release the handle.
could also be the A gear is not meshed into the other gear's teeth correctly, or something not assembled right in the timer links under the reels.
the 889-B paperwork will get added to http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ (http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/) in the next couple of days. If you want to take more pics and post or email them to slotpics@cdyn.com, I'll include them with the info.
it's always nice to have:
- entire front of machine (done)
- inside door
- inside game door open
- lamp panel behind top glass (if game has one)
- inside cabinet with hopper and reel mech removed - both straight in and entire right side showing handle stuff
- reel mech left and right sides, including right reel wiper wiring and wires
- reel mech top including reel wiper wiring
- reel mech bottom showing timer links and if there's a variator there
- insert board in top from various angles, especially if the labels are there
that stuff helps people identify a machine when their model tag is missing or wrong.
-
Spot on as always wolf. Some minor adjustments with that stop bracket, and works well. Still may need some fine tuning, but much better.
This machine will need a thorough going over. It would be a great anti smoking ad- nicotine and tar in every crevice and part.
The hopper and stepper will need to be cleaned. Stepper is kind of overwhelming to take in.
Not sure if the left side is missing a coil?
I took photos of all the areas you mentioned and will email them in a bit.
Thank you!
(https://i.imgur.com/fwWU8z2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ijh8iQD.jpg)
-
first pic with the missing reset solenoid is ok.
I think those types of units are called "continuous steppers". The ratchet just goes around clockwise endlessly. Notice there's no torsion spring on the hub to make the ratchet spin back counterclockwise.
in this case, I'd guess it's the jackpot total stepper unit, which controls how often the jackpot increases and also is used when resetting the jackpot with the key switch.
looks like you have a tied wire connection with black tape on it. Is that a green/white and white/red wire connected together? Can you see where they went?
"mean green" (not simple green) works well to remove nicotine.
wrt to the stop bracket position, I think DavidLee has said on most games the right edge of it is flush with the frame. Occasionally it needs to be a little left of that, but not often. If you aren't worried about dealing with the handle stuck down, then you can play around with how far left is too far :-)
-
From the photos the machine looks really clean.
The Bally coil wrapper along with the wiring look really clean.
A little tar and nicotine is a good sign it hasn’t been messed with.
Be careful when cleaning the printed side of the glass.
Just for the heck of it, you could reset the progressive payouts to an even thousand.
I believe for every 4 coins it adds a penny to the progressive jackpot then alternates.
-
889-B docs are uploaded. I have a 5-10 cent schem to process still, but the 25c one is there.
I guessed on the jackpot stepper unit diagrams, but david's comment matches the drawings with the exception that the 25c game doesn't increment the pennies reel, it increments the dimes. The pennies reel stays at zero.
on pinball machines they often used a dummy reel that displayed a zero, but the schematic implies the pennies reel is complete with a coil, it's just not hooked up.
your game looks like it has a correctly wired pennies reel for a 5 or 10 cent game. Maybe the denomination got changed after it left the factory? Does it say 5c or 25c in sharpie at the top of the panel?
-
I didn’t notice the .05 or .10, but denomination was definitely changed at some point. The .25 sign is on plain paper and scotch taped to the glass.
Mostly seems to be working well. Haven’t checked out the green wire with electrical tape.
The progressive works, every few coins the bottom goes up by 1.
Multiple coins make the lights on the door step up, but the top glass 7’s all
Stay illuminated all the time. Will have to see if stepper is frozen.
I’ll email
The high res photos, but here are a few.
My wife loves the look of this one, so it will stay in the family for a long time.
(https://i.imgur.com/9M8bb10.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yHDWkAp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8IAEe0K.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/BAUTEsm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xbYDCQQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Uakafz5.jpg)
-
The 3rd reel mechanism needs cleaning and lubricant. The index arm is not retracting as to allow the reel to spin.
Line lights on the upper glass should coordinate with the coins in like the bottom.
This is most likely controlled by the odds step up unit.
Progressive jackpot alternates every 4th or 5th coin, can’t remember which.
Had a machine exactly like that, the top mechanisms preform a little sluggish until it was played for awhile.
-
Line lights on the upper glass should coordinate with the coins in like the bottom.
This is most likely controlled by the odds step up unit.
looks right per the schem. On this game, the odds unit is called the line unit.
I think it's pretty consistent that when the game is multiple line, it's the line unit. When it's multiple coin to increase payout, it's the odds unit. They are essentially the same thing tho ... they reset to whatever the first coin does, then step up once for every coin added.
if your reel glass lights are working right, then the line unit is stepping correctly. It's not clear from the schematic which lamps are controlled in the top ... i.e. what lamp(s) does the "1st coin 777", "2nd coin 777" and "3rd coin 777" symbol represent.
in the schem chunk below, the green paths are working. One of these is true:
1] the panels to the left of the 7's are working and the 7's and right panels are normally always lit.
2] the top/bottom jackpot relay switches/relays have a problem
3] someone did some rewiring or there's a short
if the panels to the left of the 7's are always on, then it's not [1] above.
if you want the jackpots to increase in 10c increments instead of pennies, you need to do the following things:
1] on the upper jackpot, disconnect the two red wire segments from the 1c reel coil and if necessary cut the wire at the solder point so you have a long segment and a short one. Attach the long red wire to the white/green wire on the 10c coil. Yeah, that ties different color wires together, but that's how bally did it on the 25c 889-B's. Tape off the short red wire (the one going to the 1c reel switch).
2] on the bottom jackpot, do the same thing to the yellow/brown wire
3] put both the upper and lower jackpot penny reels on zero. Or anything you like, as they won't move.
that will increment the jackpots in dimes and correctly stop incrementing when the reels get to 999.9x, which is how the 25c version of the game is supposed to work.
-
All the lights up top stay lit all the time. As suspected, the line unit is stepping up correctly. There is a blink in the lights when coins are deposited.
I noticed some different markings on the top, as well as some wire tape repair or splice.
The hopper seems like it was swapped maybe. It does not have the weighted overflow feature, I actually have to wedge it in under the shelf of the reels. There is a wanky switch on the bottom. It is all mangled, but when I inadvertently pushed the top switch down, the hopper was a runaway.
(https://i.imgur.com/trPjptH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qmh5DkJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/T8aq0hp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8DMKzuc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TLee9er.jpg)
-
Regarding the runaway hopper, can you reset the payout counter to zero? On the bottom back of the unit is a horizontally mounted solenoid that can be pressed in from the left side. Press this and the spiral disc should spring back to zero position. If it doesn’t, you need to find out why. Did the spring wound on the back side of the payout counter get removed? It’s possible that it is overwound. When the spring is too tight, the spiral disc and wiper fingers stop turning before reaching the end of the payout trace leaving the hopper motor to run continuously. Check the spring and see how many times it has been wound. Typical is about 2 times. When wound properly, the counter should advance 200 clicks easily before binding.
-
I think he meant the hopper ran when he manually closed a switch.
old style hopper is correct for the game. The golf ball float switch closes when the hopper is full and the coin diverter on the coin door sends the inserted coins into the overflow chute.
the mangled relay on the hopper is probably the hopper mixer relay. Two switches wired in parallel with white and green wires attached? If so, careful, those are 120V. If you straighten the blades and stick them back in the lifter slots, the mixer function will work. If you don't care about burping the hopper, leave it or disable the relay more neatly (disconnect coil wire or misadjust the switches permanently open)
since the machine is a jackpot-only game with infrequent pays, the hopper mixer relay turns on the hopper motor briefly when a reel mech B switch closes to level out the coins IF reel 1 visible symbols are BAR-blank-BAR, which looks like happens 6/20 of the possible places reel 1 can stop.
since the override solenoid is not powered at that time, coins shouldn't come out ... they get diverted back into the hopper scoop.
yellow and blue wires on some lamp sockets are fine. Those are GI - general illumination = always on.
the "1st coin payline - 7 7 7 - 200 coins" should be GI since they must always be lit.
I'd guess the lines above and below would have the blue wire (maybe bare wire) strung between all the sockets, and the top would have white/yellow wire 53-3 (also may be bare with 53-3 attached to it someplace), while the bottom would have green/red wire 41-3. See previous post with schematic.
'course, the lamp sockets are under the stepper units, and looks like under the blue board the stepper units are mounted on, so you probably need to remove that board to see what is going on. Maybe DavidLee has info on the assembly or if you can peek under without taking it off. The 1100 manual looks like the blue board sits up above the white lamp panel on a couple brackets (page 44).
the manual can be found in http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/ (http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/)
you've also still got the black-taped wires near the line unit reset coil to figure out ... the white/red and green/? wires. Are they spliced together, or just not attached and taped off ... and can you see where they go - especially the white/red one?
the taped up wires in your pic are probably:
- black/white - 85-4
- orange/white - 75-4
you can see in the above schem where they are supposed to go ... I assume the jackpot relay switches. You'll need to pull the tape to see what's going on.
you may want to check and see if someone modified the game to pay the progressive jackpots if you got 777 on any line, even if you only played one coin. That would explain always lighting everything on the top glass 777 grid. That would increase the payback percentage from the meager 83.75% some :-)
-
The spring where the yellow arrow is seems a bit light. It has fallen off on occasion. This could explain. The reel spin issues perhaps? The reels are just barely adjusted and switch from bottoming out the handle, to kicking the stops too early.
(https://i.imgur.com/8HvKooy.jpg)
I pulled the tape off of those wires. There are 4 taped sections, each with just cut wires, no splices. One on either side of the lights, one directly above the line unit, and one on the far back left going to the cabinet.
(https://i.imgur.com/y5Fg6u0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/92shNP5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/O35oNjO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/J9qvvwb.jpg)
-
How about a recap as to what isn’t happening.
-
Ok to recap-
Initially, the reel stops were engaging instantly. I adjusted the stop bracket. Works much better, but still sometimes either stops early, or also the handle does not give a solid pull.
This is why I thought that small spring with the yellow arrow in my last post might be worn out.
Reel lights on door step up properly with 3 coins.
All lights on upper unit are always on. There is some wiring mods as noted in the photos in my last posts.
I’d like to get the upper lights back to oem condition if possible.
-
The spring on the trip mechanism has very light tension.
As long as it returns it should be fine.
Try adding a little light oil to the inside of the air shock.
Engaging the handle half way will allow access to the cylinder.
As the oil works in, the handle will direct more force to where it is needed to trip and spin the reels.
Remove any excess oil.
As for the upper line lights, pretty sure the reel glass lights a linked to the top glass.
Best to check the wiring on the back of the light board.
Check for modifications as in a yellow wire added and sockets modified into a parallel situation.
Originally there should be a common blue wire linked to each light.
Then 3 color coded wires to signal line 1,2 and 3. It’s possible that the colors coincide with the reel glass line lights.
-
Thanks for the info David. I have cleaned the plunger tube well. Seems like the stop
Bracket has to be super finely tuned. Still has issues on occasion.
Also, the spring in the photo below with the yellow arrow had been modified. It was mangled a bit. I replaced it with a spare, but it does not have the right tension.
What is the part number for this one?
(https://i.imgur.com/hwgomS4.jpg)
-
The trip lever stop bracket "L" is a fine adjustment.
Haven’t a part number for the "outer compression spring".
Other fine adjustments are the locking nuts on the drive shaft.
This can be adjusted to push the Trip lever assembly a little bit sooner.
Adjustment could be a little as a half turn.
-
Which direction kicks the lever, clockwise or counterclockwise?
-
Adjust the outer nut 1/2 turn in the direction of the back of the machine.
Turn the inside nut 1/2 turn in the direction of the rear of the machine.
Leave 1/16 space for play as to prevent binding.
Increasing the length of the driveshaft will cause the machine to trip sooner.
Its important to keep track of the turns, some slight adjustments may cause the machine to get worse.
If the machine does get worse, reverse the process 1 turn.
-
here's the "why" part of what david is describing.
the fork on the handle mechanism connects the handle to the reels and goes around the peg on gear A (below diagram and purple arrow in pic).
generally you adjust the end nut (E) so the peg is more-or-less centered in the fork, then adjust nut (H) for the 1/16" free play. A bigger free play gap delays when the trip lever (N) starts moving, so keep the free play small. You can use the dimension on the diagram, but eyeballing is good enough ... it shouldn't be that sensitive.
if you need the main shaft to start moving sooner as you pull the handle, the best you can do is remove as much slop as possible:
- adjust nut (E) so the peg is touching the top of the fork ... but you can still install the reel mech into the cabinet easily
- minimize the free play gap at nut (H)
I'd guess your free play gap is too big so too much handle pull is consumed before the trip lever starts rotating.
-
wrt the wiring, I'm getting daft. The 922-B written on your insert board didn't register in my head.
the 889 is a 3-line progressive, the 922 is a 5-line progressive.
looks like you have a mashup machine. The insert board is from a 922 but it's in an 889 cabinet and mated to a reel mech wired for an 889, so you'll have wires for the 4th and 5th payline that aren't used. Things like the line unit may be from an 889 or the 922 unit has been tweaked to only step up two times instead of 4 (open at top switches bent to open at step 2).
I would guess the big problem is the lamps don't line up correctly behind the top glass backlit "panels", so the simple solution was to just turn on all the lamps.
to fix that issue, you'll probably need to relocate lamp sockets, and that may take some imagination - plug existing holes to make new ones or whatever. You'll need to remove the blue board to do that, and then it should be more clear what they did and how to make it correct for an 889.
if you aren't sure about the lamp alignment, just take out all the lamps except one and stick in the glass. See if the lit one is centered on a panel, then move the lamp to some other sockets to see what the situation is.
-
I was able to make the right adjustments to get the reels spinning correctly. Thanks David and Wolf for the very explicit information and diagrams. I’ve had this issue with other machines, and really struggled to make the right adjustments.
I may leave the lights as is for the time being. It will not be as fun to play, but the idea of digging in to the back of that top board is pretty daunting.
Thanks again for all the help!
-
Great, and what was the final adjustment(s) that made the difference?
Post a photo of the light board backside when you get a chance.
-
below is a piece of the 922 flyer image from arcade-history.com. Comparing the top glass layout to the picture in the first post shows the oops. The 889 has the 777 stuff higher up on the glass.
there wasn't enough room on the 889 glass to add the panels for lines 4 & 5, so they had to move/shrink things. The top of the glass with the progressive numbers is the same on both.
-
I adjusted the trip lever stop bracket just enough so that the handle would not bottom out.
Then I loosened the nut end a good bit. The nuts themselves had some damage on the outsides, so I suspect the previous owner had misadjusted before giving up on this machine.
The real trick was to leave barely any play between the two nuts as wolf mentioned. I guess eyeballing 1/16 is tricky and I probably over-gapped by too much in my previous dealings with this part.
Do you think the casino would have merged these two machines, or more likely happened after it was retired?
I’ll try to post a photo of the back later.
Thanks again wolf and David for all the help. Machine is looking sharp and playing well.
(https://i.imgur.com/Bqvps0D.jpg)
-
I have a similar situation with my 831 fruit machine. It seems that after sitting overnight the reels will lock up after the first two or three pulls on the handle. Then the reels spin normally and the machine plays normally. Could the "L" bracket need a minor adjustment?
-
I have a similar situation with my 831 fruit machine. It seems that after sitting overnight the reels will lock up after the first two or three pulls on the handle. Then the reels spin normally and the machine plays normally. Could the "L" bracket need a minor adjustment?
does "lock up" mean they won't spin, they spin but drift to a stop and don't latch, or they latch without spinning (much)?
what's mechanically going on is as you pull the handle, the man shaft attached to the trip lever (N) is rotating clockwise. That retracts the reel wipers out of the slots in the index discs, when those arms have pulled out far enough, pawls grab them and holds them back.
after the reels kick and spin, the timer links under the reels slowly move toward the back and finally shift the pawls. That releases the reeel wiper arm and it snaps forward into a slot on the index disc and stops the reel spin.
when the stop bracket (O) is too far back, the kick happens before the pawls reliably grab the reel wiper arms and the arms immediately index the reels instead of waiting for the timer links to do it.
the other piece of the puzzle is the clock on the left side of the reel mech. That is controlling the speed the timer links are moving forward ... and if you grab the clock fan, you stop the timer links completely and you can then move the reels wherever you want. If you are having mechanical issues when it's cold, see if the fan and/or the linkages on the left side of the reel mech are getting stalled by grease that is too thick at low temps.
you may need to clean off the old grease and use something less temperature sensitive. I like tri-flow super lube with teflon in the squeeze bottle, but there's lots of similar products.
-
Do you think the casino would have merged these two machines, or more likely happened after it was retired?
certainly the guys who refurbed the machines did it. The guy I got a lot of paperwork from in Reno area would build a machine to what a customer wanted. 'course, he had a press to make the slotted metal index discs if necessary and lots of reel tapes and glass.
there's also the "make a good machine" out of a pile of parts games.
whether the casinos did it ... i think there's some folks here that worked in the casino slot operations area that could say.
I'd guess the bigger casinos wouldn't as there's risk the person doing the conversion screws up and it would be legally murky to operate a game that wasn't certified by the local gaming regulators.
-
Most likely it’s the lubricant that keeps the reels from spinning.
But since it’s all 3 reels the machine could be tripping before the index arm/roller gets out of the way.
Try warming up the machine for 30 minutes then see what happens.
-
Only thing that needs attention are the lights.
-
So because the machine is a mashup, does this mean the progressive feature won’t pay?
The numbers do advance.
I’m sort of ok with 7’s lit all the time, but really want progressive part to pay when it finally hits.
-
The progressive is paid off by attendant.
Would like to see the line lights working.
-
a variable progressive probably doesn't pay coins on any EM slot - too complicated and/or not even possible.
if you get the 777 on the progressive line, the bell just stays ringing and the coin lockout coil is unpowered so the game won't accept a coin. Looks like they then have to twist a key switch repeatedly to step the progressive reels up one step for each twist to reset the progressive amount. I'd bet DavidLee can say for sure.
if you get a 777 win that isn't the progressive, the typical 889 and 922 would pay those in coin because the payout amount was less than 200 coins (typical max a mechanically stepped payout counter could handle).
what your machine does you'll have to find out since the top line 777 pays 500. The easy way out is lock up for >200 777 wins and the casino hand pays them. The "bally way" would be to pay 200 coins and lock up, then the casino hand pays the rest. Doing it the bally way is only slightly harder and there's multiple ways to accomplish it (extra switches in a couple spots, have a top line 777 power the bottom line 777 relay, etc.)
-
David,
I’d really like to get those lights working correctly. Not really sure how to start.
They are currently always on as seen in the photos. The red progressive arrow switches back and forth from to bottom progressive after coins are deposited.
The top coin lights dim briefly when coins are deposited, but all stay on. I’d hate to make the lights not work accidentally.
(https://i.imgur.com/wfmxOk4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/E9542RG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WAInGkQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4xjlezj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/inSG5uV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q6yMIsA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/B9MkHFE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yaFJEbp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RS8efAL.jpg)
-
first thing I'd do is see how much trouble you're in.
1] take the backglass and either make some measurements, or find some paper transparent enough you can see thru. You need to determine where the lamps need to be. See purple dots on first image below, and use the number reel hole centers as a reference to measure/draw the teal lines. With the teal lines and distance between purple dots, you have the lamp layout.
2] either use the measurements or remove the lamps and use your paper as a template, mark on your insert board where the lamp centers need to be. It'll be something like the second image below, but there's camera angle distortion. Some existing holes may be close enough.
3] measure the diameter of a lamp hole in the existing panel. If it's the size you can buy a premade dowel or a plug cutter in, then you can glue in plugs into the existing holes. If not, it may be easier to just get a piece of plywood and make a new insert board. May be easier to make a new board anyway, or maybe goop in a drillable epoxy wood filler with the closest undersized plug you can find.
if you plugged holes, you drill new ones where they need to be, install the lamp sockets and fix the wiring so it works like it should.
note the chewed up outlines around your lamps. There's supposed to be the wooden fins to compartmentalize each lamp so the light doesn't bleed to adjacent panels on the glass. You'd want to make/install those. Bally probably used a block of wood with the hole shapes routed out due to the tight spacing. The 889 has a little more room between lamps, so you may be able to use the fins.
it's a fair bit of work. I'd do it, but I've been known to move walls because they are 2 inches off where they should be :-)
-
Apparently all the lights have been linked together.
There is quite a bit going on in the top unit.
It’s really hard to work on/trouble shoot the unit while in the machine!
Regarding the line lights, a schematic would be helpful.
If the line lights are working on the reel glass, that also would will be helpful.
As they are linked to the the top line lights and possibly have the same color code.
Best to determine the architectural relationship in regards to the line unit and which
wires control the bottom line lights to start.
Then check for any correspondence with the top line lights.
Regarding the jackpot lights.
It should be fairly easy to trace a coded wire from the jackpot coil contacts to the indicator light.
Then to the jackpot lights behind the multi colored asterisk.
I have a simple 3 line machine in the shop.
It’s a little easier to trace the 3 line wires without the progressive unit.
If I get a chance I will do a little investigating regarding the line lights.
As I’m finishing up on an old Bally pinball machine.
-
Check for the three coded wires on the light board.
If they’re still connected, that’s a good start.
-
just to make sure we're all on the same page ... my understanding is the game lighting CANNOT be fixed to work correctly because the lamps are in the wrong place for an 889.
the only options are:
- leave it like it is
- move some/all the lamps, then deal with hooking the lamps that line up in the right places behind the glass correctly
-
If the light board was never wired for 3 lines, it would be difficult to modified.
If there was more accessibility it probably could be achieved.
-
A little update on this machine-
I found a different 889 very close to home. It had a few small issues, but the board is mostly working properly.
With some guidance from [size=78%]Wolf, I was able to swap it into my original 889, and now all[/size]
The 777 lights and pay lights are working well.
This board was set up
For $.25, so the progressive accrues properly.
The outstanding issues are now limited to the two red arrow lights and the jackpot lighting.
(https://i.imgur.com/hoQaOUM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GEzaPXs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tViwxTP.jpg)
-
Make sure the bulbs are working,
don't want to spend time trouble shooting when it was just the bulbs.
Arrows probably linked to the step up unit. Trace the coded wires back.