New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: henko666 on June 25, 2022, 01:16:14 AM
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Hallo all,
So I got this Super Continental which I have been working on for a week with payout problems or more exactly no payout.
Made some progress during the week. Among other things the hopper motor was jammed so took it apart and cleaned it, now i can turn ther disc by hand could not do that before. Also the zero stopper plastic arm and rubber was not in correct position that is now fixed (Thanks Tim Jim).
I alson have cleaned and checked (with multimeter) all contacts on reel mechanism, hoppper and door switches and all are ok.
So after this check of everything and fixing the hopper the winner lights wont turn off, i checked all the stuff in this problem shooting guide:
IF THE "WINNER PAID" LIGHT STAYS ON CONTINUOUSLY, THE
PROBLEM IS USUALLY IN THE PAYOUT CIRCUIT. CLEAN AND/ OR
ADJUST THE "A" AND "C" SWITCHES ON THE REEL MECHANISM ( AS
ABOVE) , PLUS THE SWITCHES AT THE BACK OF THE HOPPER, AND
THE HANDLE LATCH SWITCHES ( AS ABOVE) .
Any body who has a clue? The machine is in really good condition inside, no loose cables or grease and so on. Think I'm really close, probably something really stupid I have missed? Attached a bunch of pictures below.
Have a nice day all!
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the 891-20 will be pretty close to the 891-1 ... paperwork on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/
the winner paid light is controlled by a payout counter reset pawl switch ... example from a 929-2 circled in pic below. You probably don't have as many switches, and the one you care about has green/black wire 48-1 and yellow/brown wire 36-1 on the blades.
when the payout counter is reset, the pawls should be lifted off the white plastic ratchet/gear and the pawl switch should be open.
unfortunately, your payout counter is reset in your picture, so the winner paid light being on is not the no payout issue (if the payout counter isn't resetting, the game won't pay unless a bigger win than the last pay is achieved).
are you familiar with reading the schematic and using an ohmeter/voltmeter?
the 891 payout circuit is a little messy due to the coin vs. credit payout, but the basic idea of needing a closed path from wire 90 thru the reels to a payout counter disc trace and that powering the payout relay is still true. What happens after that depends on whether you are in coin payout or replay payout mode.
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Hallo Wolftalk and thank you for your reply. If I press the lever manually which opens the switch for the reset counter the light do go out but as soon as the switch closes the winner lights go on again? Also if I close the switch by the zero stop the winner lights also go out but no payouts in that's mode either..
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if you push in the reset solenoid plunger on the payout counter, the pawls lift off the ratchet allowing the ratchet to spin to the reset position. The pawls should remain lifted above the ratchet until the step-up plunger is pushed in ... which happens mechanically in coin payout mode or electrically in replay mode.
when the pawls are lifted, the switch to the winner light is open.
when the pawls are down on the teeth, the switch should be closed - but the winner light won't come on until the "payout relay (insert)" loses power, which happens after the payout ends.
the payout counter zero switch that the gray plastic piece opens when the counter is reset disconnects the payout counter reset coil so it doesn't activate when the counter is already reset. That switch should close when the payout counter steps once, but must be closed when it steps twice (the minimum payout). If it doesn't close, the payout counter won't reset.
neither of the above switches will prevent a payout if the payout counter is currently reset, so your payout problem is elsewhere.
the zero switch should not affect the winner paid light, so it sound like we are talking about different things. The zero switch is orange arrow in picture below, and the blue arrow is pointing at "open after 20 carriage switches" ... which should be closed until the payout counter steps 20 times.
if the carriage switches are open, some payouts won't work (2 pay and 20 pay).
there's a lot of things that can go wrong to cause the game to not pay. It's a lot faster to use a meter or jumper wire to find out than looking at all the possible causes. I see a meter probe in one of your pictures ... if you set up a cherry winner on reel 1 and pull the reel mech:
1] set meter to measure ohms
2] put one probe on grey wire 90 on reel 1 wiper board
3] check for almost zero ohms on yellow/red wire 31-6 [oops ... red/yellow wire 13. Wire 13 connects to 31-6 via one of the open-at-20 carriage switches]on the reel 1 wiper board
4] if that's ok, put the probes on the same wires on the reel mech plugs. See the plug chart on the schematic for where the wires are on the plugs, and double-check the wire colors on the plug pins.
if you have almost zero ohms between wire 90 and 31-6 when there's a reel 1 cherry win, the no-pay issue is not in the reels. I'd put your meter in AC voltage measuring mode and stick one probe on orange wire 70 on any convenient coil. Other meter probe on wire 90 ... you should see 50VAC after a spin is complete ... win doesn't matter.
the circuit is basically wire 90 -> thru reels to a payout counter trace -> wire 93 to power the payout relay. In coin mode, the payout relay turns on the hopper and ejecting coins step up the payout counter. When the payout counter wipers step off the pay trace, the payout relay loses power and the pay is done.
you need the reel mech and hopper back in the machine when measuring voltages unless you have beau plug extension cables, which is a little inconvenient since you can't get the probes in. While you could make beau plug cables or just connect the wires you need and leave the mechs out of the cabinet, it's usually easy enough to use alligator clip jumpers. Attach them where you want and route them out of the cabinet so you can attach probes to them.
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Hallo again and thank you for the tips and support wolftalk. If have a cherry winner on reel one and put the multimeter between the yellow/red and grey cable I got nothing, see pictures.
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And is this really correct? If I push the reel arm to the bottom on reel one the wipers starts at the second row? On the other reels they start at the first.
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Update, the reel arms needs adjusting. Will do that tomorrow. Another question this brown diod with yellow and red stripes was loose when I got the machine. I guess it should be connected to the relay like on the picture or where the yellow cable's are below, do you know which?
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your position of the reel 1 wipers is correct - though the rivets could use some cleaning to remove the black crud. A scrub pad and isopropyl alcohol will take care if it. If you are lucky, you won't need to remove the wipers to clean the contacts on the fingers, but if you want, wetting a piece of heavy paper with alcohol and sliding the contacts over it usually works well.
I screwed up the wire. For a cherry win, you want to put the meter probes on wire 90 and 13 (red/yellow) on reel 1.
wire 13 connects to 31-6 via an open-at-20 carriage switch on the payout unit ... 31-6 isn't on the reel mech.
wire 13 is attached to the vertical column of lugs on reel 1 ... second from the top. The w-1041-1960-1963.png document diagrams the reel wipers - but keep in mind that diagram is looking at the wiring side of the boards, so you have to mirror it when looking at the rivet side.
the brown cylinder with the rings is a resistor. The ring colors decode to 2400 ohms.
that resistor was connected a couple different ways on 891 models. Since I don't have the schematic for your particular game, can't say for sure how it was originally connected.
you have an extra switch with white wires on it. What does the switch do? Looks like it goes wire 30 -> switch -> handle release switch blade that mates to 52 and 52 -> handle release coil.
having the resistor attached to the two ends of wire 52 does nothing, so it's definitely not right like it is.
having the resistor between wire 52 and 30 is reasonable. Some games did it like that.
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Thank you Wolftalk for your reply.
I will test wire 90 and 13 when I come home after work today.
Are you sure about the the position on the reel 1 wipers?
If I have it in this position and setup a bullseye winner the reel arm goes of the board, look at picture attached.
And if I put all the reels on bullseye winner shouldn't the reelarms lineup, got this from Aaron on FB.
Put your reels on all bullseyes and see if all your wipers are on the same row. Bullseye should be first row, stars second and 7’s third. If this is correct then your reel wipers are set correct.
Another question: Is there a way to test relays / solenoids when i got the reel mec and hopper outside the machine? with a battery maybe or cables running from the slot?
The problem I have with the winner paid light staying on is because the reset solenoid plunger inside the hoppper does not activate when i pull the handle so the winner paid light switches open and the hopper resets and is ready for the next pay. I know there are switches by the handle which should activate this solenoid and I have checked them several times, also with a multimeter.
The extra switch is not a switch its a tilt mechanism (see picture). There are 4 tilt mecs in the machine which are serial connected. The first one is by the door handle and it get's it power from the switch with the yellow cables neraby and goes to the first one, after that it goes to the top unit where the are 3 more. These has to be closed so current flows all the way otherwise the tilt light stays on and the slot wont work.
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Ok set up an cherry win on reel one and put the multimeter between wire 90 and 13 but I got no reading at all? So here is a problem then? I also tested putting the multimeter between wire 90 on reel 1 wiperboard and wire 90 on reel mech plug and there I got a reading same thing with wire 13, so the connection between reel 1 wiperboard and reel mech pulgs are ok. The problem must then be on the wiperarm not connecting right?
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Ok set up an cherry win on reel one and put the multimeter between wire 90 and 13 but I got no reading at all? So here is a problem then? I also tested putting the multimeter between wire 90 on reel 1 wiperboard and wire 90 on reel mech plug and there I got a reading same thing with wire 13, so the connection between reel 1 wiperboard and reel mech pulgs are ok. The problem must then be on the wiperarm not connecting right?
if the wipers are like your first pic in post #8 when a cherry is on the reel 1 payline, then yup, you have a problem.
the w-1041-1960-1963 document is below. It shows what symbol should be on the payline for the wiper positions 1-10 on the contact plate.
if you put cherries on all the reels, the wipers should all be at the same rivet position. If not, there's a couple possibilites:
1] the wiper arms need loosening and shifting to position the contacts on the correct rivets
2] the reel tapes are installed on the tins incorrectly. A cherry symbol should be on the payline when the wiper index arm is sitting on the shallowest slot on the metal index disc. The shallowest slot is barely a "slot".
if the wipers are on the correct rivets, then push down/wiggle the finger contacts onto the rivets and see if you get a meter reading.
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Update: did a complete cleaning of the reel mech and adjusted all arms and now I got the cherry reading all the way to reel mech plugs! Still no payout thou, I'm now doing the same with the hopper. I think it could be the payout relay, but I'll do all the cleaning properly first. Also gonna do the switches by the handle again since I today bought isopropyl alcohol for cleaning. I post an update when everything is cleaned expect the top unit..
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Payout relay, check the contacts associated with the hopper motor.
In most cases the white blue or solid green wires run the hopper motor.
Best to check and double check for continuity, broken wire/solder joints,
and rarely broken blades between the wafers.
Assuming the payout step up unit is working properly.
And there’s continuity from a know payout from wiper board 1
to the payout relay.
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just tested the payout relay coil and the solenoid with plunger arm for hopper reset and both are ok. Bought some lab-cables som i can test hopper and reel mech coils and solenoids outside the machine. I know the hoppper motor works since its mixing coins when i pull the arm. tried the thing you wrote before:
(I'd put your meter in AC voltage measuring mode and stick one probe on orange wire 70 on any convenient coil. Other meter probe on wire 90 ... you should see 50VAC after a spin is complete ... win doesn't matter.)
but got no reading? also i know I got the cherry win reading on reel mech plug, where should i check next? can I check if the win signal comes to the hoppper?
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if you don't see 50V on wire 90, payout is dead.
typical circuit is below. With one probe on wire 70, you should see 50V on all the points along the yellow path. You know 60-1 is ok because the handle release works.
the anti-cheat relay should power when the game is reset and stays powered forever unless a tilt switch opens. There's a button inside the coin door that will power the anti-cheat relay ... has wires 30 and 15-1 on it.
note there are plug connections along the path that aren't shown on the schematic ... e.g. the coin relay is on the reel mech, the handle release switch in the cabinet, etc.
you know how to decode the wire id's to colors, right? If not, there's a chart on the schematic.
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Short update. one of the "pins" in the beau plug reciving feemale side of the reel mech had been pushed in so it made no contact (white/yellow cable in the pic).
After fixing that as good as I could I must have short curcuited something because now it dont accept coins or release the realease handle or basically anything, well the lights work..
When I get home I'll check the 50v fuse and then behind all the beau sockets if something is amiss.
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that's wire 53. It is used in the 3-bar pay circuit.
when you turn on the game, the tilt light should be on. If you push the reset button inside the coin door, the anti-cheat relay should power and turn off the tilt light. If that works, the 50V is ok.
if the game is flaky when units are removed/inserted, the male plug pins should be cleaned and the female sockets checked for pin issues like you found. Usually you can get away with not trying to clean the sockets ... the pins will scrape thru any oxidation when the unit is installed.
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One of the beau plugs didn't connect properly, so now the machine is back to the state before I fixed the white/yellow cable = no hopper reset and no pays. But im pretty sure the white/yellow cable now connects through the beau. Tomorrow I'm gonna check the hopper beau plugs, could be same thing there. After that I guess I'm going upstairs to top unit and start checking and cleaning all the coils and switches there. Have no idea if a winning signal from reel mech goes through top unit before going to hopper? The tilt light do come on and can be turned off with the anti cheat so guess 50v is OK.
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referring to the schem in post #14, the circuit for wire 90 comes from an anti-cheat relay switch - which is in the top compartment.
open the top compartment and see if you have 50V with the meter probes on wire 70 on the anti-cheat relay coil and wire 90 on one of the switches when the anti-cheat relay is powered.
can you post a pic of the inside of the top compartment showing the plug connections?
for the slam tilt switch by the handle release coil, someone added that. You can leave it or remove it. If you remove the switch and wiring, connect the remaining tilt switches to yellow wire 30. There should be a wire 30 around where they white wire is going in the top compartment that they disconnected.
Wire 30 -> series of tilt switch switches -> red/green wire 14-1 on an anti-cheat relay switch is correct.
to test a coil, you can briefly touch wire 30 to the coil lug that is not wire 70.
for example, with the hopper out of the machine, jumper wire 70 from someplace handy in the game like the handle release coil to wire 70 anywhere on the hopper, then with a jumper connected to wire 30 in the game (handle release switch or coin switch), touch the other end of the wire 30 jumper to the coil lug that isn't wire 70 and the coil should fire.
you can also just measure the resistance of the coil ... but the coil needs to be isolated by opening switches and/or sticking paper between contacts/under wiper fingers. If you aren't sure you have the coil isolated, you can unsolder the wires from one lug.
google for the correct resistance of the coil using the part number and see if you have something close.
for the payout counter reset coil, the coil is isolated when the zero switch by the spiral cam stop bumper is open. Reset the payout counter manually, verify the switch is open and measure the resistance between the two coil lugs. The reset coil is usually a C-28-1100, so the resistance should be around 15 ohms.
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Hallo again and ty for your reply. I bought labbcables so I have tested all the coils and solenoids on the hopper, reel mech and release door handle with power. What i have not done so much on is the top unit so I just took it out of the machine to be able to do maintenece easier, see pictures of it outside and also the plug connections. Around one of the connections it is black so i guess there has been a short curcuit sometime. Basically the only thing that I have done on top unit is replace one broken switchblade on one of the coils. Gonna clean and check all the switches today. Let me know if there are some special spot you want me to take a photo of which could be interesting. It must be something in top unit that prevents payout and reset of hopper payout board. I do net get payout in coins or credit mode so it must be something here.
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the anti-cheat relay has a charred coil wrapper because the coil is powered all the time. The wrapper turning black is normal. As long as the coil powers and holds the armature plate on the coil top without buzzing too loudly, it's ok.
on earlier 891 machines, the anti-cheat relay is a 3 lug device that is designed to reduce the current/heat. Looks like your game they changed the design to use a more easily found 2-lug coil.
in the picture below, the orange arrow is pointing to wire 70. Stick a meter probe there.
the red arrow is pointing to wire 90, and the purple arrow to wire 27-2.
you should see 50VAC with the other meter probe on wire 27-2 at end of game (coin relay and handle release relays NOT tripped).
when the anti-cheat relay is powered, you should see 50VAC between wire 70 and wire 90.
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UPDATE: I guess this is positive 🙂 Cleaned and checked all the switches for each coil on top unit and some of them did not make conatct so did fix some. Now for the first time somehing happens when I get a win, the 50v fuse blows and the machine goes into tilt mode. Same thing if I play in credit or coin mode. tried different winlines but all blow the fuse. So what what in top unit get activated when a win occurs and now blows the fuse?
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UPDATE Saturday: ok guess this is positive 🙂 cleaned and checked all the switches for each coil in the top unit and some of them did not make conatct so did fix some. Now for the first time somehing happens when I get a win, the 50v fuse blow and the machine goes into tilt mode. Same thing if I play in credit or coin mode. tried different winlines but all blow the fuse.
So the status of the slot machine right now is that the hopper still dont reset and when i get a win the 50v fuse blows and the machine goes into tilt mode in both coin and credit mode.
The coins acceptor works and releases handle and the multiplier steps up. You can press button to play with credit thats works too with multiplier and it steps up like with coins. The hopper motor works because it mixes coins with every pull.
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Best to re-inspect prior work preformed on the top unit.
Look for wire(s) that might of been crossed causing a short.
Check all springs for correct placement and coil armatures for proper function.
Loose hardware screws, washer etc that could have shifted during the cleaning.
Check plug / pins connections as in pushed out / shorting.
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The short comes from the anti cheat relay. The coil is damaged the whole right side where the connectors for the cables are is loose. The plastic has also melted on one of the switchblades, you can see that on the picture. So I have to replace this. Does anybody know what replacment coil I shoiuld use. This is not like the other coils in the top unit since it got 3 connections, the other ones got 2. And it's so black I cant see any numbers on it.
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oops ... ignore post 20 I guess :-) The 1100 manual shows the relay mounting boards swapped ... I shoulda checked the wire colors on the coil.
the anti-cheat relay isn't really needed since you probably aren't worried about players thumping the machine. I'd just disconnect the red/white wire from the coil and use a zip tie to strap the armature plate down on the coil top ... or you can misadjust all the switches to behave like the armature plate is down.
if you want to replace the coil, you have three options. The 3-lug coil is G-34-580/2020 (http://www.pin-games.se/parts/pinball/bally/coils.htm (http://www.pin-games.se/parts/pinball/bally/coils.htm)), and a 2-lug coil that can be used is G-33-2800. If you use the 2 lug coil, you can remove the black jumper wire going to the middle lug ... it's not needed - and neither is the switch it's attached to. There is a possibility that the two-lug coil won't work due to the number of switches on the relay.
You can also buy some 34 gauge "magnet" wire and:
1] attach end to an end lug that has the red/white wire on it.
2] wrap 580 turns of wire around, scrape off some insulation and attach to middle lug - don't cut the wire
3] wrap an additional 2020 turns of wire around and attach to the remaining lug
it's easiest to use a knife/razor and scrape the insulating varnish off.
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Thank you so much for the info that I can bypass the Anti cheat relay coil, it's not easy to find replacment for those old coils. Ok so did that but no change, it was not the anti cheat relay causing the short. But good to get that out from the machine since it just crumbled into small pieces when i took it out. As soon as I get a winner the fuse blows. I followed OldRenos post about "Checking your Bally EM for shorts" and I got the shorts reading on the mulktimeter. Then I took out hopper, reel mech and connections to top unit but the short is still there. So could it be in the female side of on of the beau plugs then maybe?
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The red/white wire appears to have burned through the insulation in two places near the coil.
Possibly it has other burned areas that could be shorting out.
Also, removing units to check for shorts is helpful in some cases.
But since it blows on a win, all units are involved.
Thus removing one unit opens most circuits in between.
Setting up a payout and blocking contact circuits between units might be helpful.
Or meter check individual wires for shorts between switches might reveal a problem.
High powered magnifying glasses and bright light help when looking at contacts and wire connections.
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Thank you so much for the info that I can bypass the Anti cheat relay coil, it's not easy to find replacment for those old coils. Ok so did that but no change, it was not the anti cheat relay causing the short. But good to get that out from the machine since it just crumbled into small pieces when i took it out. As soon as I get a winner the fuse blows. I followed OldRenos post about "Checking your Bally EM for shorts" and I got the shorts reading on the mulktimeter. Then I took out hopper, reel mech and connections to top unit but the short is still there. So could it be in the female side of on of the beau plugs then maybe?
although your anti-cheat coil looked roasted, it must have been working or the tilt light would always be on.
for the short, where are you putting the meter probes and how is your meter configured?
when you have a winner, the first thing that happens is the payout relay powers, which turns on the hopper. If the hopper doesn't turn on before the 50V fuse blows, you probably have a short on wire 90. A quick test is to stick paper under all wiper fingers on the payout counter and see what happens. If the fuse still blows, remove the hopper entirely and see what happens when you have a winner.
also check if it matters which winner you have. A cherry win is simplest.
a circuit breaker will save you from emptying the piggy bank to buy fuses - something like these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832626132113.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832626132113.html)
you need to add wire and alligator clips so you can attach it to the fuse holder. If you can't find an exact amperage, just use one that is close.
6.3mm connectors like these are the matching size if you want to have multiple breakers and be able to swap the wires/clips onto the one you need.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832640182852.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832640182852.html)
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Ok so first I followed this guide exactly looking for shorts, and I do get a low reading in Ohms even thou hopper, reel mech and top unit cable's are disconnected.
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=17559.05 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=17559.05)
The hopper does not turn on before the 50v fuse blow.
When I put a piece of paper under all wiper fingers on payout counter the fuse do NOT blow, nothing happens at all. See picture.
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the wiper fingers connect the wire 90 circuit to the payout relays. One is on the hopper, the other is on the insert board in the top comparment. Wire 93 is the main wire going to those things.
to narrow stuff down, it may be worth putting paper under all the payout counter wiper fingers except the one on the 2 trace. If the fuse blows on a cherry win, you know something on wire 93 is causing the issue.
if you don't want to blow a fuse, what is the resistance between wire 93 and wire 70 on each payout relay coil? Pull the hopper and measure both relays with the hopper out.
also just look at the payout relay coils and see if one looks burnt up.
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The 200 250 payout contact blades appear to be discolored.
Possibly to much heat indicating a short.
Hard to tell from the photo.
As Wolftalk mentioned, isolate all the contacts.
Then remove the card insulator one contact at a time.
This could narrow down the problem.
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Thank you wolftalk and DavidLee for suggestions. I have ordered a circuit breaker from amazon and will get it Thuesday next week so I will put everything on hold til then. I also need couple of they rest from this machine there has been many late nights lately :) I will be back with an update next week after the circuit breaker arrives..
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Sounds good,
Sometimes when you take a break, problems become obvious.
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Got one thing I wonder. Checked payout relay on the top unit. The first switch from the left gives a closed signal on my multimeter even thou its clearly open? See pictures. I checked the cable solderings above and they do not touch each other there. The colour of the cables are yellow and grey/red. So is this normal? Are there relay switches which get a closed signal from elsewhere than when the switchblade touch each other?
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Got one thing I wonder. Checked payout relay on the top unit. The first switch from the left gives a closed signal on my multimeter even thou its clearly open? See pictures. I checked the cable solderings above and they do not touch each other there. The colour of the cables are yellow and grey/red. So is this normal? Are there relay switches which get a closed signal from elsewhere than when the switchblade touch each other?
yes, there are many paths between those two wires even when the switch is open.
the two wires you are looking at are 30 (yellow highlight on schem below) and 91-2 (red highlight).
the green highlight shows many of the ways you can get from 91-2 to 30. Some may not work depending on the state of switches in the path, but the key thing is the loads (lamps, coils, motors, and transformer windings) are fairly low resistance devices, so many meters in "continuity/buzzer" mode will go through them.
what you see on your meter depends on what mode your meter was in. I assume since the payout relay armature was down on the coil top, you had the power on, the relay powered, and the meter was set to measure AC voltage.
voltages
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the key thing when measuring voltage is ... when no current is flowing in a circuit, loads are effectively just shorts. There's no voltage drop across the load when no current is flowing thru the load.
in other words, IF there is a closed path from 91-2 to 20, then wire 91-2 is at the same voltage as wire 20, so you would measure 6VAC with probes on wire 30 and 91-2.
if you close the switch tho, current flows in the circuit and wire 91-2 is now the same voltage as wire 30. Every closed path in the circuit up to the lamps is the same as wire 30, so you'd need to have one probe on wire 20 and the other anywhere in the closed circuit to measure 6V.
the meter is measuring the voltage difference between the two probes.
the test question is ... what happens if you have a meter probe on wire 30, the other probe on wire 91-2, and you open the #1 odds motor and replay key switches so 91-2 isn't connected to anything ... then what does the meter say?
the answer is it's meaningless. If wire 91-2 isn't connected to either end of the transformer winding somehow, then it's just floating in space and whatever reading you get would be "phantom" voltage created by stray magnetic fields in the wires.
if you figure out what the above is talking about, it can be pretty handy since you can prove there is a closed path from each probe to each side of the transformer winding. However, you don't know if the closed path is able to carry the current the load wants. It's possible for a cruddy connection to add enough resistance in a closed circuit to reduce the current enough that the load - typically a coil - doesn't work.
the ideal test is always probing a closed circuit - either by getting all the switches and stepper wipers in the right state, or bypassing stuff with jumper wires. Then measure the voltage on the two load terminals. If it's not the transformer voltage, something else in the circuit is adding significant resistance and limiting current. That shows up as a voltage drop. You'd keep one probe on the power rail (20 for the 6V circuit and 70 for the 50V), and poke along the closed path with the other probe. When you find a connection where the voltage measures the transformer value on one side but is a lot lower on the other side, that's the cruddy connection.
resistance / continuity
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if your meter is measuring resistance / continuity, the game power needs to be off. Resistance is the better choice since a closed connection like a switch should measure almost zero ohms. If you had a probe on wire 30 and other on 91-2, no matter which path you walk between those two points, you'd go thru at least 1 lamp + another lamp or transformer winding. You'd measure a few ohms at least ... probably 10's of ohms. When you see that, you know the switch is open and you're measuring thru some path going thru loads ... or if the switch is supposed to be closed, it's not or is cruddy.
continuity mode is a bigger issue. It's up to the meter to decide how much resistance is needed to consider the circuit open. That depends on the meter, how much voltage it uses in continuity / buzzer mode, etc. When using a buzzer, you must make sure the circuit is isolated so there is no path thru loads.
in this case, you could ensure the replay key switch and #1 odds motor switch are both open, remove the insert coin, winner paid and insert coin lamps, and/or open other switches to break the path ... then you wouldn't get a buzz between 30 and 91-2 when the switch is open.
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Thank you for explaining. I got the circuit breaker today and soldered it properly to 50v fuse and its working fine. So the status right now is this. As soon as I start the machine now the 50v fuse blows. If I pull out the hopper the fuse does not blow. I then like you suggested isolated all the contacts on payout counter and removed the paper one contact at a time. And the the contact that blows the fuse is the first one from the bottom, the 2 payout scheme. If I put a paper under the first contact like on the picture the machine does not blow the fuse. So the problem is there and from the 2 there goes a yellow and red cable.
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Yellow/red is used in various places.
Best I can recall check these locations.
Coin lockout coil.
Left side of reels. B and C switches.
Handle release.
Also in the top box odds unit. It resets on first coin.
As does the coin in relay/switch stack, resets.
Check for burn marks, wires touching, loose hardware.
Try this, reset the breaker, then operate the machine as usual in a dark area/room.
Watch for blue flash/sparks.
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Thank you for explaining. I got the circuit breaker today and soldered it properly to 50v fuse and its working fine. So the status right now is this. As soon as I start the machine now the 50v fuse blows. If I pull out the hopper the fuse does not blow. I then like you suggested isolated all the contacts on payout counter and removed the paper one contact at a time. And the the contact that blows the fuse is the first one from the bottom, the 2 payout scheme. If I put a paper under the first contact like on the picture the machine does not blow the fuse. So the problem is there and from the 2 there goes a yellow and red cable.
the problem is probably not where the wire on the 2 trace is going ... that's wire 31-6 and it's coming from the reels.
if you pull the reel mech and take the paper out from under the wiper, what happens. You should be able to set the reels so it's not a cherry win and wire 31-6 shouldn't be powered.
the wiper fingers attach to wire 93 and go to the payout relay coils. There's a payout relay under the hopper, and another one in the top compartment. Did you verify the payout relay coil on the hopper is ok?
tmi
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all the wires on the payout counter disc except 93 and 98 are coming from the reel wiper boards. The idea is when you have a winner, the appropriate trace on the payout counter is connected to wire 90 - which in turn is eventually connected to transformer wire 30. All the wiper fingers are tied together and feed out onto wire 93 to the payout relays. As coins are ejected or credits added, the payout counter wipers step up/around. When the wiper steps off the end of the active trace, the payout is over.
your 2 trace has a lot of burning on the end. Some arcing is normal, but excessive burning is can be a coil issue, failed resistors, or just accumulated deterioration. When the trace end burns off enough that the last step is flaky, more arcing happens.
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This is the machine that one of the coils was replaced?
Might want to revisit the area surrounding the new coil.
The slightest bit of solder in the wrong place can cause problems.
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Thank you for your suggestions, to be honest I’m starting to lose hope a little bit here. Forget what I last posted about the fuse blowing right away when machine starts, it was a rookie mistake which I have fixed. The fuse just like before blows when a “winner” appears on the wheels. If I pull out the hopper and set up a win, the fuse does NOT blow. If I have the hopper in and set up a cherry win and isolate the first contact from the bottom (which is the one who get powered by a cherry win) the fuse does not blow. If I for example set up 3 oranges win and only have first contact from the bottom isolated the fuse blows but if I isolate the second from the bottom (which is the one who gets powered by 3 oranges win) the fuse does not blow. So, it doesn’t matter which win I set up, as soon as the wiper fingers get powered against the pay out counter on the hopper the fuse blows. I again checked all the coils (including pay out relay coil) on the hopper (when its out) with lab cables and giving them power and they all work. Also tested all the coils in top unit (including pay out relay coil) and they work fine. I have tried to locate where the short circuit happens but have not seen any flash or anything similar or any place where it appears to happen where its blackened. I changed the diod on the payout relay coil but that did not help. DavidLee I have not replaced the anti cheat coil just bypassed it with the instructions Wolftalk gave me and that seems to work fine since the tilt light now is turned off straight away when I start the machine. The thing is when I get or set up an win I don’t think any of the relays and coils gets activated before the fuse blows so the short circuit happens before or when a relay is being activated. If I set up an win it's “dead” silent, only a little flash of all the lamps and then one second later the fuse blows. The other “strange” thing is that if I turn the payout counter by hand it does not reset on the next pull like it should so the winner light stays on until I manually reset it by hand. I checked all the contacts in beau plugs and cleaned them also.
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it can be dishearting when starting out trying to use correct terms i always get that wrong but i know what i mean
so your problem if i understand is the fuse blows before any payout
but if you isolate the fingers its ok but doesnt blow the fuses, the hopper reset (from memory) is done through the b mech switch should close when you pull the arm
i have changed out the 50volt fuse for a circuit breaker this helps when your going through loads of fuses i stuck a breaker of the correct amperage on
the fuse only blows on a win so the payout disc powers the payout relay which in turn powers the hopper motor also in there is the timer circuit(nothing stuck in there sometimes you can get coins stuck in there when machines have been moved)
recheck the wiring from the payout card to the payout coil
perhaps you could slip paper between the contacts on the payout coil see if its blowing a fuse then
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perhaps you could slip paper between the contacts on the payout coil see if its blowing a fuse then
yup! Since you can work with the hopper out, I'd stick individual pieces of paper between the switches on both payout relays so they won't do anything when the relays power.
when you have a winner and allow the payout counter wiper fingers to make contact, both payout relays should power but nothing else happens. If you get that far, you can pull the pieces of paper out one at a time and see which one causes the breaker to trip.
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I put paper between every switch on both relays so there cant be any conatct at any of the payout relays and the fuse still blows. So the fuse blows before any of the payout relays are activated and that is what suits with what I said that the machine is "dead quiet" before the fuse blows, I never hear any relay activate.
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ok, so something connected to wire 93 has a problem, or wire 93 has a short.
if you are stuck, then disconnect wire 93 from the hopper plug and see what happens. You need to know if the problem is on the hopper.
how did you test the payout relay coils ... especially the one on the hopper? If you were jumpering wire 30 to the wire on the coils that wasn't orange wire 70, then the fuse should have blown if the hopper was cabled to the game.
btw, there isn't a diode on the payout relay (hopper). The relay with the diode on the hopper is the delay relay. The payout relay is on the back of the hopper (I think). Has orange and grey/yellow wires on the coil.
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To test the coil I took out the hopper an used cables from the door, wire 70 orange and 30 yellow, the coil fires. All the coils are tested this way on hopper,reel mech and top unit. Wire 93 is grey/yellow right?
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On a winning payout, I believe the first thing that happens is the hopper motor starts.
This is accomplished when a winning combination passes through the payout counter disc.
Then travels to the payout relay starting the hopper motor.
Mechanically the hopper advances the payout unit until the contacts run off the corresponding payout.
The disc strip not associated with a winning payout is most likely to one that feeds power to the payout relay.
Secondary
Has the payout step up unit been inspected?
Remove the top screw and loosen the bottom one.
Rotate the unit out at the top and down.
Inspect every wire connection for proper placement.
Check for hardware and or solid slag that could cause a short.
Look for burn marks.
Inspect the wire bundle to the beau plug and all solder joints.
Check for foreign metallic objects within the beau plug solder connectors.
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yes, wire 93 is grey/yellow.
if powering each coil works when it's out of circuit without tripping the breaker, either the plug connection is causing the issue or powering all the stuff connected to wire 93 at the same time is over the current limit.
got a meter that reads current? May be work inserting into the circuit and test the two payout relays ... or disconnect wire 93 from the hopper plug and shove the hopper back in. That'll tell you if the problem is on the hopper.
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I got the hoppper to pay out! But it makes no sence to me why or maybe it does :) OK so the short associated with wire 93 eventually broke a connection on the payout board on the hoppper (see picture). I noticed it was getting darker there every time a short was happening and eventually the connection on that spot broke and the machine started right away to pay out. This means after this happend the connection to the contacts by 250 and 200 are now not connected (see other picture) to wire 93, the contact at the top right side goes to the white wire which goes to the bottom right contacts (see arrow on picture). It could have been that the contact (the one by the short) was bent not to touch and I at some point when I just got the machine bent it back so it made contact, i dont remember but with that contact "not now having connection" to wire 93 the payout works! Anyhow I tried all kind of wins and they pay correctly on one coin game. But if I play 2 to 6 coins the multiplier dont work, it still pays out for one coin game. So my question is does "broken connection" on payout board maybe have something to do with multiplier (wins on coins 2-6)? Or is the underpay issue an other issue maybe in the top unit? I can see the light in the end of the tunnel finally :D PS I also tested the machine in "credit mode" and that works too, the pays go to credit meter instead of the hopper but same problem there as in coin mode that it pays out for 1 credit even thou I played 2-6 credits.
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I don’t work on EM machines but this has been fascinating to follow. The mechanics are amazing and the amount of detail you have access to is impressive. I was excited to see that you got pay out resolved, hopefully you can get the multiplier working and post a video of the finished product.
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Additional coins activate the odds unit step up relay.
Try manually stepping up the odds unit, then activate the coin in switch.
Observe what happens. It should reset to one coin in.
Activate the coin switch again while observing the switches in the top unit.
This will give some direction.
Possibly cleaning the relay contacts and the step up unit contacts could solve the problem.
Then check contacts for continuity in their closed position.
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you can repair the blown trace with a wire since the wipers fingers don't reach that area.
the problem is probably not wire 93. Is the wire on the 200 trace 75 (orange/white) or 53 (white/yellow)? May not matter much, in either case it probably goes to the odds unit disc. When playing one coin it doesn't connect anywhere on the odds disc via wipers. That implies a short on the wiring, disc, replay/payout key switches, or jackpot lockup relay switch.
got pictures of the odds disc wipers, jackpot relay switches and payout/replay key switches?
win multiplication in coin vs. credit mode is completely different, tho both need the odds disc to step up correctly. If your odds lights aren't changing when you insert multiple coins, then the odds unit isn't stepping up or the wipers have an issue.
there are small wires attached to odds unit wipers. Grab each and tug. If it pulls off, it needed to be resoldered anyway.
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Took a closer look at the payout step unit.
Made notes on the photo concerning the yellow/red wire.
Maybe this matter has been dealt with.