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Author Topic: Long term Storage issue with 742a  (Read 2062 times)

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Offline Bally Bill

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Long term Storage issue with 742a
« on: February 06, 2022, 01:50:40 PM »
Hello and Happy New Year!! Due to some family health issues and a taking on a new program at work I had to step away from playing/tinkering with my 4 slots(13months) but now I have finally have the time to get back in the EM game. I was not having any issues with this machine before my hiatus but after lighting her up and playing on-off for about day it stopped paying out on any jackpot so I was thinking the zero switch needed adjustment but after bench testing the hopper and zero stop it seems to be working correctly. I did a continuity check from the Zero switch wires to Beau pins and then on the rest of the wires on the hopper and it checks out ok.  I did the same thing to the reel mechanism (B-switch ) and still not finding any shorts so that leads me back to Zero switch? Machine cycles correctly until you hit any jackpot then she goes dead and I get a handle lockout error. Would there be any other place to look for a short or stuck contact on maybe the payout relay on reel mechanism or reset coil on hopper? Thank you Bill

Cherry hit=Winner light flashes then goes dark
Big jackpot- Winner light flashes and bell rings none stop until I pull the hopper
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 09:35:16 PM by wolftalk »

Offline wolftalk

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2022, 06:43:08 PM »
what's the full model number on the plate below the handle (top number is model, bottom one is serial number).

there's a lot of variations on the 742A, so the behavior of things like the winner light can be different.

the zero stop switch in front of the spiral cam on the payout counter disc is almost always in the payout counter reset circuit.  It's job is to disconnect the reset coil when the unit is already reset to minimize wear-n-tear.  The switch should be open at reset, closed at step 1 (tho practically it just needs to be closed at the minimum payout step). 

if the zero switch isn't working, the symptom is the payout counter doesn't reset, so small pays stop working as bigger pays happen. 

if you have a pay not working, see if the wipers on the payout counter are reset.  If they are, are the traces cruddy?  After that, it's debug of the entire circuit thru the reels.  A good check is verifying you have 50V with probes on wire 90 and wire 30.  90 is the grey wire on the reel 3 wiper board, and wire 30 is the yellow wire on various things like the coin switch.

the goal is to have a closed circuit path from wire 90 thru the reel wipers to the appropriate trace on the payout counter disc.  The payout wipers then connect that to the payout relay coil to turn on the hopper.  As coins eject, the payout counter wipers move and eventually step off the pay trace, causing the payout relay to unpower and the hopper turns off.

the winner light is sometime driven by a payout counter "reset pawl" switch.  That will be on the ratchet/gear side of the payout counter and operated by the reset pawl/link connected to the reset coil plunger.  That switch is open when the pawls are lifted off the ratchet teeth when the unit is reset, and closed when the pawls are flopped down on the teeth.

there's often a payout relay switch in the winner light circuit also that opens when the payout relay is powered.  That prevents the light from turning on until the payout completes.

big jackpots - ones that pay more than 200 coins - may lock up the machine since the game can't pay wins higher than that.  The bell behavior also varies.


Offline Bally Bill

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2022, 09:00:26 PM »
Hi Wolftalk and thanks for your reply, Its been awhile in EM land but please see my reply's below
 
what's the full model number on the plate below the handle

--742a-298 5 cent Star Special 8/25/69 Silver Nugget Hotel- completely original slot with smell of casino cigarettes inside!

the zero stop switch in front of the spiral cam on the payout counter disc is almost always in the payout counter reset circuit.  It's job is to disconnect the reset coil when the unit is already reset to minimize wear-n-tear.  The switch should be open at reset, closed at step 1 (tho practically it just needs to be closed at the minimum payout step).

----Yes opens on reset and closed on first step- performed the 100 step with reset and pawls are out of the rachet teeth and then engages first tooth on its first step.

if the zero switch isn't working, the symptom is the payout counter doesn't reset, so small pays stop working as bigger pays happen

---No Payouts at all- 1,5, and 10 dollar jackpots make winner bell ring but no coins which led me back to zero switch but I checked continuity and I get it to zero out on meter.

if you have a pay not working, see if the wipers on the payout counter are reset.  If they are, are the traces cruddy?  After that, it's debug of the entire circuit thru the reels.  A good check is verifying you have 50V with probes on wire 90 and wire 30.  90 is the grey wire on the reel 3 wiper board, and wire 30 is the yellow wire on various things like the coin switch

----- not dirty but I cleaned contact plate and wiper arms***need to probe those wires to confirm continuity****

the goal is to have a closed circuit path from wire 90 thru the reel wipers to the appropriate trace on the payout counter disc.  The payout wipers then connect that to the payout relay coil to turn on the hopper.  As coins eject, the payout counter wipers move and eventually step off the pay trace, causing the payout relay to unpower and the hopper turns off.

the winner light is sometime driven by a payout counter "reset pawl" switch.  That will be on the ratchet/gear side of the payout counter and operated by the reset pawl/link connected to the reset coil plunger.  That switch is open when the pawls are lifted off the ratchet teeth when the unit is reset, and closed when the pawls are flopped down on the teeth.

----Winner light come back on after reel mech is pulled out-Yes the reset coil is working based on your information above

there's often a payout relay switch in the winner light circuit also that opens when the payout relay is powered.  That prevents the light from turning on until the payout completes

----Hearing a click sound when winner is hit but I cant tell if its the hopper or reel mech making the noise

big jackpots - ones that pay more than 200 coins - may lock up the machine since the game can't pay wins higher than that.  The bell behavior also varies

------Bell rings without payout and stops when hopper is pulled.


I temporary closed the zero switch full time just to see if it might reset but no go

« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 09:14:00 AM by wolftalk »

Offline wolftalk

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2022, 09:46:53 AM »
any chance you have the schematic for the game?

can you post a pic of the entire front with the payout table?

finding the paperwork for the casino-specific games isn't likely, so without it you have to use paper from similar games and verify the circuits are the same.  Some of the silver nugget machines were unique, but that's mostly the reel tapes, reel wiper wiring and slotted reel index discs.  The rest of the machine is often generically wired.

the 6V bell circuit through the reels is completely separate from the 50V payout circuit, but it's very common for the bell to only ring when the payout relay has powered.  So if your bell is ringing, the win detect is working and the payout relay powered.  At that point, it's just a switches on the payout relay that power the override solenoid and the hopper motor.  Since all that stuff is on the hopper unit, no plug connections are in play.

can you see if the override solenoid is powering when you have a win?  It's the thing sitting on top of the hopper that pulls back the deflector plate that allows the coins to pass under the roller and dump out.

if the override solenoid is powering, usually the hopper motor should be running.  Those two things are usually wired together in parallel.  If that's the case on your game, then the likely thing is the hopper is crudded up or jammed. 

one test is pull the hopper and attach a cordless drill to the hopper motor rotor and spin it.  The hopper pinwheel should turn, but the coins will deflect back into the scoop unless you hold the override solenoid plunger into the coil.  Ideally, the cordless drill has a clutch chuck so it will slip if the pinwheel is stuck.

you can also use a chopstick or whatever to manually push down the payout relay armature plate and see if the hopper motor runs and turns the pinwheel .. tho it looks like your payout relay may be mounted in the back where it's hard to reach.

get the game paying first and deal with the winner light if it's flaky after that.  Ditto on jackpot pays, since it's possible you have the setup where when the jackpot relay is powered, the bell just rang and an attendant needed to push a button inside the door to release the handle and spin the reels to shut up the bell.  That setup was used when a hand pay was required.

Offline Bally Bill

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2022, 08:16:15 PM »
Hi, Here is the 742 awards card and circuit map/ trouble shooting guide that have helped me on this issue and others in the past. I have pictures of hopper relays but i notice this on the bottom contact plate tabs that there seems to missing 2 contacts? My 3 other EM have electronically stepped hopper so I have nothing to compare too so I"am not 100% sure. I double checked the hopper motor and its smooth without any binding and checked continuity to motor and coin kicker. Trying to pin point the clicking sound that happens when I slide the reel mechanism in and out of the beua plug since it sound like it on the top and not on the hopper side.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2022, 08:20:44 PM »
more pictures

Offline wolftalk

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2022, 12:52:09 AM »
the manual is a generic 742A and may not be exactly like your game.

on the payout relay, there's usually two switches connected in parallel with white and green wires on the blades.  Those switches power the hopper motor.

if those are the switches with the contacts that have burned/fallen out, you need to replace the contacts ... or the switches/switch blades.

they are standard pinball and slot machine parts that use large tungsten contacts.  Do not use the contacts that are smaller and have one side domed and one side flat.  Those will burn up fairly quickly.  The tungsten contacts are both large discs ("hockey pucks").

if you want to verify that's your problem, you can use a jumper wire to connect the white and green wires and see if the hopper runs.

Offline Bally Bill

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2022, 05:20:43 AM »
I did not see any shadow on contact blade that would indicate they fell out and I searched the case for the contacts, but I will give that a try later today- Thank you

Offline wolftalk

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2022, 10:52:11 AM »
I can't tell from the pics whether there's a hole in the blade or it's just carbon/shadow. 

if you want to email highest possible pics to slotpics@cdyn.com, that'd help.  If sending from a phone, send "actual size" so it doesn't downside them.

below the red arrow is kinda pointing at the switch that usually controls the winner light.  The pic doesn't really show the switch itself.

typically the switch has yellow and grey/red wires on the blades.  It's called the "payout counter reset pawl switch".

some early 742A models didn't have/use it it for the winner light.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2022, 05:55:18 PM »
Hi Wolftalk, I inspected the payout relays on my 3 EMs and those all had contacts on the blades, so I went on another hunt inside the lower case and found this little sucker under the Beau plug bracket. I "am so tempted to molest one of the other machines for the blades just to confirm this is the issue but I will stand down. Once I find the replacement blades (evilbay or maybe NLG classifieds) I will update this post. Thank you again!

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2022, 07:49:37 PM »
I've gotten them from Pinball Resource. This link should go straight to switch parts. http://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common   IIRC, the last time I ordered some contacts I needed for the bowler Jimmy responded that the copper one actually comes in two different sizes?  I got the smaller ones but should have gotten the larger.  Simple to install and worked fine though.  You can get most all the parts needed to rebuild any switch stack there. 

Shipping will probably cost more than the parts you need?  They do specialize in pinball parts but there are also a lot of interchangeable EM parts that you might need like relay/coil/spring/bulb parts that will also work so dig around.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2022, 09:09:42 PM »
I think that's a tungsten (high power) contact.   Per off-track, you can get them at PBR or other pinball suppliers.

for the one you found you can just stick it back in and solder it in place if you want.  Try and clean the blade as best you can and put a thin coat of solder in the hole, on the blade surface the contact sits on and on the contact (peg side).  Then heat the blade+contact to fuse it all together. 

the heat generated by arcing may melt the solder and the contact will fall out again, so definitely get replacement contacts/blades and peen the contact onto the blade tightly.  Or get blades with the contact already installed.  If you have silver solder and a hot enough iron, use that.

there are redundant hopper motor switches, so if you bung the contact back in one of the blades, the motor should work ... at least for a while.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 09:27:55 PM by wolftalk »

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2022, 09:29:27 PM »
Hi  Wolftalk and Off-track, I will measure the contact I found and check out your link below to get the correct size blades, I think that would be better because my soldering skills are basic at best. Thanks for all your help and input!

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2022, 05:31:22 AM »
found this and going to try to solder this later today or tomorrow, I will have to practice to get this to solder correctly

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2022, 10:02:20 AM »
can't tell if the contacts are right style, but they'll work.   If your second pic is the same relay as the first one, then it's a payout relay and the contacts should be right ... both side big discs rather one a disc and a smaller dome.

the easiest thing is remove the two long screws holding on the switch stack.

usually the switches are units stacked on top of each other, so you can remove the two switch units that have the bad contacts and swap in replacements.  You'll just need to unsolder/solder two wires since the switches are wired in parallel.

put the replacement switches on the screws for alignment, solder on the wires, then mount the stack back on the relay.  You can use a rubber band or twist tie to hold the stack together on the screws while soldering.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2022, 09:51:21 PM »
Hi, Yes I matched it up and it looks like it will work, I plan on taking the hopper to work and using some of our good Weller soldering irons and solder wick to remove the old solder and reinstall the new ones. Our electrical engineer is going to help me out so I hope to be back in business tomorrow.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2022, 09:26:35 AM »
solder wick not needed. 

if the wire is looped through the hole in the switch blade and doesn't want to come out easily, I just cut the wire as close to the blade as possible and pull out the remaining with needlenose pliers after the solder it heated.

when soldering on wires, you don't need to put the wire thru the hole.   It's easier to "tin" the wire by heating it and adding solder to it, heat the blade lug and add a little solder on that, then put the two together and heat both to melt them together.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2022, 08:44:52 PM »
Hello Bill,

Sorry to hear there was some health problems.
It’s been awhile, looks like you have everything under control.
Soldering will most likely fix the problem, but if you need another blade
most likely I have one in salvage that you can have.
Haven’t been on the site for awhile.
As you know I’ve been busy restoring an old camp trailer,
just about finished.
It’s kept me busy through the whole Covid situation.
Anyway I’m a little off subject and don’t want to get demoted.
Will catch up with you later.

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2022, 02:02:14 PM »
Hi David, Thank you for the reply, I fell down the MILLs Mechanical Slot Rabbit hole but I finally got the contacts put together and solder. I installed the hopper and yes she fired up BUT the coins keep on coming out!! Run Away Hopper! I must have inserted the brown spacers in the wrong order and maybe the contacts are touching to closely so its back to the drawing board again!

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Re: Long term Storage issue with 742a
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2022, 03:15:52 PM »
Bill,
Attach a couple of photos of the part/area you worked on.
I may have some thing to compare it with if you don’t.

Payout relay is in the circuit that controls the hopper motor.
Possibly contacts need adjustment or wires making contact.

 

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