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Author Topic: Bally Super Continental [Model 891-20] no payout / winner light on all the time  (Read 4646 times)

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Offline henko666

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Hallo all,

So I got this Super Continental which I have been working on for a week with payout problems or more exactly no payout.
Made some progress during the week. Among other things the hopper motor was jammed so took it apart and cleaned it, now i can turn ther disc by hand could not do that before. Also the zero stopper plastic arm and rubber was not in correct position that is now fixed (Thanks Tim Jim).
I alson have cleaned and checked (with multimeter) all contacts on reel mechanism, hoppper and door switches and all are ok.
So after this check of everything and fixing the hopper the winner lights wont turn off, i checked all the stuff in this problem shooting guide:

IF THE "WINNER PAID" LIGHT STAYS ON CONTINUOUSLY, THE
PROBLEM IS USUALLY IN THE PAYOUT CIRCUIT. CLEAN AND/ OR
ADJUST THE "A" AND "C" SWITCHES ON THE REEL MECHANISM ( AS
ABOVE) , PLUS THE SWITCHES AT THE BACK OF THE HOPPER, AND
THE HANDLE LATCH SWITCHES ( AS ABOVE) .

Any body who has a clue? The machine is in really good condition inside, no loose cables or grease and so on. Think I'm really close, probably something really stupid I have missed? Attached a bunch of pictures below.

Have a nice day all!


Offline wolftalk

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the 891-20 will be pretty close to the 891-1 ... paperwork on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

the winner paid light is controlled by a payout counter reset pawl switch ... example from a 929-2 circled in pic below.  You probably don't have as many switches, and the one you care about has green/black wire 48-1 and yellow/brown wire 36-1 on the blades.

when the payout counter is reset, the pawls should be lifted off the white plastic ratchet/gear and the pawl switch should be open.

unfortunately, your payout counter is reset in your picture, so the winner paid light being on is not the no payout issue (if the payout counter isn't resetting, the game won't pay unless a bigger win than the last pay is achieved).

are you familiar with reading the schematic and using an ohmeter/voltmeter? 

the 891 payout circuit is a little messy due to the coin vs. credit payout, but the basic idea of needing a closed path from wire 90 thru the reels to a payout counter disc trace and that powering the payout relay is still true.  What happens after that depends on whether you are in coin payout or replay payout mode.


Offline henko666

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Hallo Wolftalk and thank you for your reply. If I press the lever manually which opens the switch for the reset counter the light do go out but as soon as the switch closes the winner lights go on again? Also if I close the switch by the zero stop the winner lights also go out but no payouts in that's mode either..

Offline wolftalk

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if you push in the reset solenoid plunger on the payout counter, the pawls lift off the ratchet allowing the ratchet to spin to the reset position.  The pawls should remain lifted above the ratchet until the step-up plunger is pushed in ... which happens mechanically in coin payout mode or electrically in replay mode.

when the pawls are lifted, the switch to the winner light is open.

when the pawls are down on the teeth, the switch should be closed - but the winner light won't come on until the "payout relay (insert)" loses power, which happens after the payout ends.

the payout counter zero switch that the gray plastic piece opens when the counter is reset disconnects the payout counter reset coil so it doesn't activate when the counter is already reset.  That switch should close when the payout counter steps once, but must be closed when it steps twice (the minimum payout).  If it doesn't close, the payout counter won't reset.

neither of the above switches will prevent a payout if the payout counter is currently reset, so your payout problem is elsewhere.

the zero switch should not affect the winner paid light, so it sound like we are talking about different things.  The zero switch is orange arrow in picture below, and the blue arrow is pointing at "open after 20 carriage switches" ... which should be closed until the payout counter steps 20 times.

if the carriage switches are open, some payouts won't work (2 pay and 20 pay).

there's a lot of things that can go wrong to cause the game to not pay.  It's a lot faster to use a meter or jumper wire to find out than looking at all the possible causes.  I see a meter probe in one of your pictures ... if you set up a cherry winner on reel 1 and pull the reel mech:

1] set meter to measure ohms
2] put one probe on grey wire 90 on reel 1 wiper board
3] check for almost zero ohms on yellow/red wire 31-6 [oops ... red/yellow wire 13.  Wire 13 connects to 31-6 via one of the open-at-20 carriage switches]on the reel 1 wiper board
4] if that's ok, put the probes on the same wires on the reel mech plugs.  See the plug chart on the schematic for where the wires are on the plugs, and double-check the wire colors on the plug pins.

if you have almost zero ohms between wire 90 and 31-6 when there's a reel 1 cherry win, the no-pay issue is not in the reels.  I'd put your meter in AC voltage measuring mode and stick one probe on orange wire 70 on any convenient coil.  Other meter probe on wire 90 ... you should see 50VAC after a spin is complete ... win doesn't matter.

the circuit is basically wire 90 -> thru reels to a payout counter trace -> wire 93 to power the payout relay.  In coin mode, the payout relay turns on the hopper and ejecting coins step up the payout counter.  When the payout counter wipers step off the pay trace, the payout relay loses power and the pay is done.

you need the reel mech and hopper back in the machine when measuring voltages unless you have beau plug extension cables, which is a little inconvenient since you can't get the probes in.  While you could make beau plug cables or just connect the wires you need and leave the mechs out of the cabinet, it's usually easy enough to use alligator clip jumpers.  Attach them where you want and route them out of the cabinet so you can attach probes to them.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 07:06:42 PM by wolftalk »

Offline henko666

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Hallo again and thank you for the tips and support wolftalk. If have a cherry winner on reel one and put the multimeter between the yellow/red and grey cable I got nothing, see pictures.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 04:25:11 AM by henko666 »

Offline henko666

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And is this really correct? If I push the reel arm to the bottom on reel one the wipers starts at the second row? On the other reels they start at the first.

Offline henko666

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Update, the reel arms needs adjusting. Will do that tomorrow. Another question this brown diod with yellow and red stripes was loose when I got the machine. I guess it should be connected to the relay like on the picture or where the yellow cable's are below, do you know which?

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your position of the reel 1 wipers is correct - though the rivets could use some cleaning to remove the black crud.  A scrub pad and isopropyl alcohol will take care if it.  If you are lucky, you won't need to remove the wipers to clean the contacts on the fingers, but if you want, wetting a piece of heavy paper with alcohol and sliding the contacts over it usually works well.

I screwed up the wire.  For a cherry win, you want to put the meter probes on wire 90 and 13 (red/yellow) on reel 1.

wire 13 connects to 31-6 via an open-at-20 carriage switch on the payout unit ... 31-6 isn't on the reel mech.

wire 13 is attached to the vertical column of lugs on reel 1 ... second from the top.  The w-1041-1960-1963.png document diagrams the reel wipers - but keep in mind that diagram is looking at the wiring side of the boards, so you have to mirror it when looking at the rivet side.

the brown cylinder with the rings is a resistor.  The ring colors decode to 2400 ohms.

that resistor was connected a couple different ways on 891 models.  Since I don't have the schematic for your particular game, can't say for sure how it was originally connected. 

you have an extra switch with white wires on it.  What does the switch do?  Looks like it goes wire 30 -> switch -> handle release switch blade that mates to 52 and 52 -> handle release coil.

having the resistor attached to the two ends of wire 52 does nothing, so it's definitely not right like it is.

having the resistor between wire 52 and 30 is reasonable.  Some games did it like that.

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Thank you Wolftalk for your reply.
I will test wire 90 and 13 when I come home after work today.
Are you sure about the the position on the reel 1 wipers?
If I have it in this position and setup a bullseye winner the reel arm goes of the board, look at picture attached.
And if I put all the reels on bullseye winner shouldn't the reelarms lineup, got this from Aaron on FB.

Put your reels on all bullseyes and see if all your wipers are on the same row. Bullseye should be first row, stars second and 7’s third. If this is correct then your reel wipers are set correct.

Another question: Is there a way to test relays / solenoids when i got the reel mec and hopper outside the machine? with a battery maybe or cables running from the slot?

The problem I have with the winner paid light staying on is because the reset solenoid plunger inside the hoppper does not activate when i pull the handle so the winner paid light switches open and the hopper resets and is ready for the next pay. I know there are switches by the handle which should activate this solenoid and I have checked them several times, also with a multimeter.

The extra switch is not a switch its a tilt mechanism (see picture). There are 4 tilt mecs in the machine which are serial connected. The first one is by the door handle and it get's it power from the switch with the yellow cables neraby and goes to the first one, after that it goes to the top unit where the are 3 more. These has to be closed so current flows all the way otherwise the tilt light stays on and the slot wont work.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 01:22:55 AM by henko666 »

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Ok set up an cherry win on reel one and put the multimeter between wire 90 and 13 but I got no reading at all? So here is a problem then? I also tested putting the multimeter between wire 90 on reel 1 wiperboard and wire 90 on reel mech plug and there I got a reading same thing with wire 13, so the connection between reel 1 wiperboard and reel mech pulgs are ok. The problem must then be on the wiperarm not connecting right?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 10:59:54 PM by henko666 »

Offline wolftalk

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Ok set up an cherry win on reel one and put the multimeter between wire 90 and 13 but I got no reading at all? So here is a problem then? I also tested putting the multimeter between wire 90 on reel 1 wiperboard and wire 90 on reel mech plug and there I got a reading same thing with wire 13, so the connection between reel 1 wiperboard and reel mech pulgs are ok. The problem must then be on the wiperarm not connecting right?

if the wipers are like your first pic in post #8 when a cherry is on the reel 1 payline, then yup, you have a problem.

the w-1041-1960-1963 document is below.   It shows what symbol should be on the payline for the wiper positions 1-10 on the contact plate.

if you put cherries on all the reels, the wipers should all be at the same rivet position.  If not, there's a couple possibilites:

1] the wiper arms need loosening and shifting to position the contacts on the correct rivets

2] the reel tapes are installed on the tins incorrectly.  A cherry symbol should be on the payline when the wiper index arm is sitting on the shallowest slot on the metal index disc.  The shallowest slot is barely a "slot".

if the wipers are on the correct rivets, then push down/wiggle the finger contacts onto the rivets and see if you get a meter reading.

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Update: did a complete cleaning of the reel mech and adjusted all arms and now I got the  cherry reading all the way to reel mech plugs! Still no payout thou, I'm now doing the same with the hopper. I think it could be the payout relay, but I'll do all the cleaning properly first. Also gonna do the switches by the handle again since I today bought isopropyl alcohol for cleaning. I post an update when everything is cleaned expect the top unit..

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Payout relay, check the contacts associated with the hopper motor.
In most cases the white blue or solid green wires run the hopper motor.
Best to check and double check for continuity, broken wire/solder joints,
and rarely broken blades between the wafers.

Assuming the payout step up unit is working properly.
And  there’s continuity from a know payout from wiper board 1
to the payout relay.

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just tested the payout relay coil and the solenoid with plunger arm for hopper reset and both are ok. Bought some lab-cables som i can test hopper and reel mech coils and solenoids outside the machine. I know the hoppper motor works since its mixing coins when i pull the arm. tried the thing you wrote before:

 (I'd put your meter in AC voltage measuring mode and stick one probe on orange wire 70 on any convenient coil.  Other meter probe on wire 90 ... you should see 50VAC after a spin is complete ... win doesn't matter.)

but got no reading? also i know I got the cherry win reading on reel mech plug, where should i check next? can I check if the win signal comes to the hoppper?

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if you don't see 50V on wire 90, payout is dead.

typical circuit is below.  With one probe on wire 70, you should see 50V on all the points along the yellow path.  You know 60-1 is ok because the handle release works.

the anti-cheat relay should power when the game is reset and stays powered forever unless a tilt switch opens.  There's a button inside the coin door that will power the anti-cheat relay ... has wires 30 and 15-1 on it.

note there are plug connections along the path that aren't shown on the schematic ... e.g. the coin relay is on the reel mech, the handle release switch in the cabinet, etc.

you know how to decode the wire id's to colors, right?  If not, there's a chart on the schematic.

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Short update. one of the "pins" in the beau plug reciving feemale side of the reel mech had been pushed in so it made no contact (white/yellow cable in the pic).
After fixing that as good as I could I must have short curcuited something because now it dont accept coins or release the realease handle or basically anything, well the lights work..
When I get home I'll check the 50v fuse and then behind all the beau sockets if something is amiss.

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that's wire 53.  It is used in the 3-bar pay circuit.

when you turn on the game, the tilt light should be on.  If you push the reset button inside the coin door, the anti-cheat relay should power and turn off the tilt light.  If that works, the 50V is ok.

if the game is flaky when units are removed/inserted, the male plug pins should be cleaned and the female sockets checked for pin issues like you found.   Usually you can get away with not trying to clean the sockets ... the pins will scrape thru any oxidation when the unit is installed.

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One of the beau plugs didn't connect properly, so now the machine is back to the state before I fixed the white/yellow cable = no hopper reset and no pays. But im pretty sure the white/yellow cable now connects through the beau. Tomorrow I'm gonna check the hopper beau plugs, could be same thing there. After that I guess I'm going upstairs to top unit and start checking and cleaning all the coils and switches there. Have no idea if a winning signal from reel mech goes through top unit before going to hopper? The tilt light do come on and can be turned off with the anti cheat so guess 50v is OK.

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referring to the schem in post #14, the circuit for wire 90 comes from an anti-cheat relay switch - which is in the top compartment.

open the top compartment and see if you have 50V with the meter probes on wire 70 on the anti-cheat relay coil and wire 90 on one of the switches when the anti-cheat relay is powered.

can you post a pic of the inside of the top compartment showing the plug connections?

for the slam tilt switch by the handle release coil, someone added that.  You can leave it or remove it.  If you remove the switch and wiring, connect the remaining tilt switches to yellow wire 30.  There should be a wire 30 around where they white wire is going in the top compartment that they disconnected. 

Wire 30 -> series of tilt switch switches -> red/green wire 14-1 on an anti-cheat relay switch is correct.

to test a coil, you can briefly touch wire 30 to the coil lug that is not wire 70.

for example, with the hopper out of the machine, jumper wire 70 from someplace handy in the game like the handle release coil to wire 70 anywhere on the hopper, then with a jumper connected to wire 30 in the game (handle release switch or coin switch), touch the other end of the wire 30 jumper to the coil lug that isn't wire 70 and the coil should fire.

you can also just measure the resistance of the coil ... but the coil needs to be isolated by opening switches and/or sticking paper between contacts/under wiper fingers.   If you aren't sure you have the coil isolated, you can unsolder the wires from one lug.

google for the correct resistance of the coil using the part number and see if you have something close.

for the payout counter reset coil, the coil is isolated when the zero switch by the spiral cam stop bumper is open.  Reset the payout counter manually, verify the switch is open and measure the resistance between the two coil lugs.   The reset coil is usually a C-28-1100, so the resistance should be around 15 ohms.

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Hallo again and ty for your reply. I bought labbcables so I have tested all the coils and solenoids on the hopper, reel mech and release door handle with power. What i have not done so much on is the top unit so I just took it out of the machine to be able to do maintenece easier, see pictures of it outside and also the plug connections. Around one of the connections it is black so i guess there has been a short curcuit sometime. Basically the only thing that I have done on top unit is replace one broken switchblade on one of the coils. Gonna clean and check all the switches today. Let me know if there are some special spot you want me to take a photo of which could be interesting. It must be something in top unit that prevents payout and reset of hopper payout board. I do net get payout in coins or credit mode so it must be something here.

 

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