Fuse questions

[Lake Dude]

Just picked up a Bally EM 3- coin, one line, dollar slot.  Previous owner said it was blowing fuses.

There are 4 fuse holders.  2x 5A are for AC in,  one 10A is for for solenoid circuit and the last is 15A. Are these the correct values?
As for finding the short,  I deposit a coin, the handle lock solenoid pulls in tailgating the handle.  I  pull the handle (lose/win same results)  and when the reels settle, it no longer accepts coins and eventually blows the door solenoid fuse. I notice the transformer getting very hot to the point of overheating. I've pulled the hopper, the reel deck, checked for obvious pinches or shorts and the lighting sockets for shorts to the chassis.
I'd send machine part info  but, don't know how to tell.

Call anyone help me with a different perspective?

TIA


Topic moved to Bally Electromechanical
~moderator

[wolftalk]

there should be a model/serial number plate on the cabinet below the handle.

if it's gone, look for numbers written on the reel unit and hopper.  Typical 3 coin $1 machines were the 1088, 1089, 1090, and 1091.

a picture of the entire front of the machine would help identify it.

the fuse values should be on a piece of paper near the fuses.  The usual thing was 15A for the 6V circuit and 5A everywhere else.

is the coin relay (left side of hopper) and the handle release relay getting reset when pull the handle and the spin completes?

[DavidLee]

Inspect the coin in relay/ switches for continuity.
Do this manually in the latched and unlatched positions.

Separate from that.
Possibly there’s a wire crossed and or a switch that stays in the wrong position.

Posting high  quality photos helps in finding problems.
A photo of the coin in relay could be helpful.

[Lake Dude]

Thank you for weighing in on my issue!

Boy,  do I feel stupid. I looked everywhere inside the machine,  but not under the handle.  It is a 1088. Apparently,  it was a training machine.

In an effort to redeem my stupidity. I stated unplugging connectors until the current draw went away.  Turns out when I unplugged the 12 pin molex connector just above the bottom left hinge it went to normal.   Knowing that it controls the solenoids on the door, I started with what I think is an interlock and removed one of its leads.  I removed the white wire with the black tracer and it stopped blowing fuses.
So,  here is where I'm at currently.  It does not register when a coin is dropped or the switch activated.  If I manually operate the handle solenoid,  it works, I can pull the handle and it pays out according to the single coin table.
I'm left trying to figure out why it won't register coins.
As an aside,  it was not paying correctly,  until I disassembled the hopper and cleaned and lubed it well. Now,  that is correct.

[wolftalk]

just a 1088, or a 1088-something?  The top number on the plate is the model number.

the first coin trips the coin relay on the left side of the reel mech, and that in turn trips the handle release relay. 

The next two coins step up the coin unit which is inside the top compartment.

if you're a schematic reader, the paperwork for some 1088 models in on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

first step is getting the coin relay to trip ... got a voltemter?

[Lake Dude]

Thanks for your reply!

Under the handle is a metal tag with 2 lines.  First just days "1088" the second days "1088-####" which I thought was a serial number.  I can get that code if it helps?

Based upon your previous suggestion,  I poked around a little.  I found if I manually set the solenoid on the left side of the reel deck,  when inserted it will trip the handle coil. It still will not register any coins that trip the switch.  Payout is still based on the single coin payout.
I measured the resistance (yes,  I have a DVM) and got 48 Ohms +/-.
I did stop the fuse from blowing by pulling the white wire with what I believe is black tracer (though could be blue)  as I have a tough time with colors. I attached a photo,  but it was from the 12 pin connector just above the bottom hinge.
I can read the schematics of an average circuit board, but am EM schematic presents difficulties.

[wolftalk]

1088 is good ... that's the first machine of the series.

the wire you took out of the connector is 58-4 (see the schematic for plug charts ... the schem is the w-1046-1828... file in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1088/

58 is the color code for white/black, and the -4 means it's the 5th time that color wire was used in the machine.  58, 58-1, etc. all look the same, but aren't connected together.

so ya hunt around the schem for 58-4 ... and it's not there.  Oops.  There is a 58-3 which is in the circuit to the coin scavenger coil, and that's on the front door so it's a good bet that's the wire you disconnected.

afaik, the scavenger coil is hanging off the right side of the coin mech bracket.   Part #59 on page 83 of the bally 2400 manual (https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/)

when you push the coin reject button next to the coin entry chute on a scavenger game, it closes a switch and powers the scavenger coil.  Most games  the reject button mechanically operated the mech to reject coins.

the game powers the scavenger coil at other times so when the game isn't ready to accept a coin, it will dump back to the tray.

to get your game to accept coins, you need the coil plunger to be out of the coil  If the coil is fried, the plunger may be stuck.

the coil part number is CD-29-1600 if it is shot.  Should be around 28.5 ohms.


oops ... 58-4 is on the terminal strip for the electronic door lock coil.

the coin relay should not trip until the coin switch tripwire is pushed down.  On the tripwire switch, the yellow wire is common and should connect to the orange/green wire (74-1) when the tripwire is up, and to blue/yellow wire 23-1 when the tripwire is depressed. 

is the tripwire stuck down?

got a pic of the entire inside of the front door?

[Lake Dude]

Hi Wolftalk,

Thank you for the very helpful info.

As if it wasn't confusing enough,  they use the same color wire multiple times! I'm glad you brought that up,  as I would have assumed they were all the same. That would have been messy.
So,  this scavenger cool strangely enough has a momentary ON push button someone installed at the top right of the cabinet.  When I push it,  it energizes the scavenger relay,  which AFAIK seems to be operating correctly, mechanically.  I wondered why would someone go through the bother of installing this button when the coin return button works fine... I assumed it was something to do with it being a training machine.

You are correct,  the club relay is not tripping when the trip wire is activated.  The wire is not stuck and I hear a distinct "click" when I press it with my fingers. I manually activated the coin relay by depressing the "paddle" and it locked into position.  I can't reach it when the reel assembly is in,  but when I reinsert it, the handle solenoid activates.
When I first got the machine,  it was taking a hiatus on blowing fuses,  and the coin in part was working correctly.  Since the fuse blowing began again,  and I took out the 58-4 wire,  coins stopped working. I'm going to try and trace that wire again,  this morning.  I thought it connected to what I call an interlock on the door.  It seems to push a rod into the door latch to prevent it from operating. What ever that wire goes to,  I'm fairly certain that is the cause of the fuses blowing,  as the machine has been powered on since Friday night,  with no blown fuses.
I've attached a photo of the inside of the door.  I tried using a flash, but it washed out the wire colors.  I've also had to lower the resolution to get it to upload because of the size.

Again,  thanks so much for your help. I'd be lost like a golf ball in tall grass without it

[Lake Dude]

After all that,  the picture didn't go...

[wolftalk]

Since the fuse blowing began again,  and I took out the 58-4 wire,  coins stopped working. I'm going to try and trace that wire again,  this morning. I thought it connected to what I call an interlock on the door.  It seems to push a rod into the door latch to prevent it from operating.

and there is wire 58-4 on the schem.  It's on the terminal strip and connects the electronic door lock coil.

either your door lock coil is bad, or there's a short on the wiring.

the momentary switch could be the reset button sw.  Got yellow (30) and grey/orange (97) wires on it?

the scavenger coil powering could be a side effect of the payout relay powering if that is the reset button.

the 50VAC power wire is wire 70 ... solid orange.  You'll see it on lots of coils.  Stick a voltmeter probe on that and poke the coin switch terminals with the other probe.  You should not see 50V on 23-1 unless the tripwire is down.

if you want to send highest possible resolution pics to slotpics@cdyn.com, I'll add them to the info with the game paperwork.  Stuff like:
- entire front of game
- the door pic
- inside cabinet
- reel mech all sides
- hopper
- insert inside top compartment from various angles so the parts on it can be seen.

[Lake Dude]

Working on it now.  Will send shortly.  Thank you!

[Lake Dude]

Bit of trouble with my email sending so many large photos,  even broken into several emails.  Here's a share to all of them: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1J44LYN0bhJDI9crbN3DGr_LTnFqh-wY3

Let me know when I can delete the photos.

More looking around today.  Found a melted coil in the upper cabinet.  Near as I can tell,  it keeps track of how many coins are deposited.  The mechanism was frozen solid,  as the plumber could not advance the nylon wheel. Manually advancing the wheel advanced the coin in payout table.  Still do not have the coin switch functioning. I found two wires (orange with white trace and green with white trace) buried under the coin mechanism that look to be unused.  Perhaps for a payout meter?

[Lake Dude]

Bit of trouble with my email sending so many large photos,  even broken into several emails.  Here's a share to all of them: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1J44LYN0bhJDI9crbN3DGr_LTnFqh-wY3

Let me know when I can delete the photos.

More looking around today.  Found a melted coil in the upper cabinet.  Near as I can tell,  it keeps track of how many coins are deposited.  The mechanism was frozen solid,  as the plumber could not advance the nylon wheel. Manually advancing the wheel advanced the coin in payout table.  Still do not have the coin switch functioning. I found two wires (orange with white trace and green with white trace) buried under the coin mechanism that look to be unused.  Perhaps for a payout meter?

[wolftalk]

the pics came thru on email ... but your right that sticking stuff on a cloud drive is probably easier.  I don't have small limits on incoming file sizes, but some sending mail services might.  Pics + others of a 1088 are on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/1088/pics/

fried coil is the step-up coil on the coin unit.  First coin should trip coin relay and handle release relays and reset the coin unit.  Reset position = 1 coin played.  The next two coins should step up the coin unit once per coin.  At 2nd/top step, the scavenger coil powers to reject coins.  The coin switch is still not tripping the coin relay?  If no, you can briefly jumper/short the yellow and blue/yellow wires on the coin switch and the coin relay should trip.  If it does, the coil switch is bad or the coin is not pushing down the tripwire far enough.

if the coin switch isn't working and you can't source a replacement easily, sometimes you can squirt a solvent like electrical parts cleaner/mass airflow sensor cleaner into the microswitch and shake it around to clean the contacts.  Good idea to shake it out and give it time to evaporate tho.   May be easier to drill out the rivets, clean it up and use whatever to hold the case halves together again.  The mounting screws will hold it together, so you just need it to not fall apart until mounted.

there's youtube vids on "bally stepper units" that go into details on cleaning the units and checking them.  Same units were used in EM pinball machines, so the coils are easy to find at pinball parts suppliers and probably ebay.   

stepper units need to step up easily and wipers/ratchet whizz back to reset when the reset plunger pushed in.

if you want to test the coin relay another way, you can briefly jumper yellow wire 30 to blue/yellow wire

is the plunger on the scavenger moving freely in the coil? 

since I did such a great job finding 58-4 previously (cough), I looked for your unattached wires on the schem/plug chart.  I think you've got 65-2 (brown/white) and 43 (green/yellow) which went to a ramp switch that you don't have - along with the ramp that directs coins to a coin box instead of the hopper.

65-2 was for a cash box meter. which counted coins diverted to the cash box.

43 was in the level relay hold circuit.  When the hopper level switch closed, the level relay is powered indicating the hopper is full and coin should divert to the cash box.   To prevent the level relay from chattering if the hopper level switch is closing/opening when the hopper is barely full, the circuit is keeping the level relay powered (after it powers) at least until the next coin operated the ramp switch.

since you don't have all the ramp parts, I'd tape off 65-2 and 43 and leave them tucked away someplace.

[DavidLee]

Coin counter drop box and door lock.
Photo of each, wires correlate.

If the odds unit step up froze in one position, this might of caused the damage to coil.
In rare cases the nylon insert can be replaced and the coil will operate as normal.
Best to replace with a good coil an monitor the operation for a few days.

[Lake Dude]

This thing is like a bag of worms!

I did actually stumble across the hopper full relay in the top cabinet.  I noticed a clipped wire that when connected released the coin diverter. (Where did that horrible buzzing go!) I think when I get this going in going to tie that diverter in and disco the coil!

So the scavenger cool is going in/out very easily, Ohms out fine,  as well. The step up unit is a bit sluggish.  I'm going to photograph well and disassemble to clean, well be sure to watch a couple of YouTube videos,  but have rebuilt my spider wheels on my pin before.  The grease looks like it has hardened over the years. Interestingly enough,  I noticed the similarity but never drew the connection. I have ordered a replacement coil for the step up unit (Same coil as on my pinball flippers) , now have to try and retrieve the frozen plunger that seems melted in.  Any suggestions?

I played with the step up unit... manually pulling in the pawl that "steps" the gear. I do see the respective coin#2 and coin#3 payout sections now illuminating.  Still no changes on coin#1 being recognized. When I pull in the step up reset coil it sluggishly resets.

I looked at jumping 30 and 23 which I think is simulating the coin in? I checked the coin switch with an old analog meter, and it is properly working. Is there any kind of set up or pure requisite I need to know that makes for the coin in to register?  Or does the switch simply provide voltage to a matching relay?  I also notice there are caps randomly in the slot.  Would a failure cause the coins not to register?

I'm traveling the next 5 days,  if I need more parts I can order then to be here when I get home.

By the way,  thank you so much for hanging in there helping me.  I'd be lost without your help!

[DavidLee]

The nylon insert is melted around the plunger applying pressure and or the plunger has partially melted through the nylon.
Best to wash out excessive dirt and grime with a cleaning solvent.
Fit the coil over a block of wood with the appropriate size hole drilled into it.
Lightly tap in both directions. If it doesn’t move try a slight twist and tap.
Next would be to place it in the freezer overnight and repeat the process.
The density of the two different materials might cause it to break apart.

[Lake Dude]

Hi DavidLee,

Thanks for the advice.  That makes sense,  the step up unit is definitely sticky.  I can see how that would cause the coil to over heat and melt.  I can't get the plunger out of the coil.  It sounds now,  but won't pull out.  I tried heading out to remelt the the sleeve,  but it wouldn't budge. Unless anyone has a better suggestion,  I was going to deploy BFM. (Brute Force Method) and whack it with a hammer to try and drive it out. I hate to,  as the coil still appears to be good.

[Lake Dude]

Ha! DavidLee,

Your a step and a half ahead of me. 

Will try the wood block.

Just noticed a few typos in my last post.  Meant to say it now spins and I tried Heating it up.

[wolftalk]

the step up unit is definitely sticky.  I can see how that would cause the coil to over heat and melt.

maybe ...

the ratchet moves when the plunger is being pulled out of the coil by the springs on the pawl arms.  The circuit sequence is:

- first coin in

1] coin switch tripwire down
2] coin relay trips, coin unit resets
3] coin tripwire up, handle release relay trips

- 2nd and 3rd coin in

1] coin unit step-up relay powers
2] coin unit step-up coil powers
3] when plunger pulls in, the coin unit step-up relay loses power
4] coin unit step-up coil loses power
5] springs pull step-up arm back, which pulls plunger out of the coil and the pawl pushes the ratchet around.

the reason for the relay is the tripwire activation is too short to reliably power a solenoid ... so a relay is powered and held powered until the solenoid fires and releases it.  It's a common "hold" circuit in pinballs.

as long as the step-up arm switch opens, worst that can happen with a gunky unit is it won't step.   If for whatever reason the step-up coil stays powered, then you have coil meltdown.  Common problem would be the step-up arm is frozen on its pivot so the plunger didn't pull into the coil.

when the plunger and/or sleeve is stuck in a solenoid coil, the coil is shot.  Even if the wire survived, the spool will be distorted so a new sleeve wouldn't go in.  Might as well whack the plunger out with a hammer or cut the coil off the plunger.

there is a nylon collar around the coil stop end of the plunger.  If that melted, you need to replace that also.  Part number is C-342.

collar and plunger are the same as used on bally EM pinballs.  Plunger is part S-496-100 ... but you should be able to get the plastic off the one you have.

I looked at jumping 30 and 23 which I think is simulating the coin in? I checked the coin switch with an old analog meter, and it is properly working. Is there any kind of set up or pure requisite I need to know that makes for the coin in to register?  Or does the switch simply provide voltage to a matching relay?  I also notice there are caps randomly in the slot.  Would a failure cause the coins not to register?

the circuit goes from yellow wire 30 on the coin switch to:
- blue/yellow wire on the coin switch when tripwire down to handle release relay switch (handle release relay reset/untripped)
- grey/blue wire on mating blade of the handle release relay to 1st reel snap switch (look for the grey/blue wire at top of left side of reel mech for the snap switch)
- blue/red wire on mating blade on snap switch to coin relay switch
- mating blade on coin relay switch to coin relay coil.  Could be a white wire or a jumper wire of any color - usually black tho.

if the coin switch works, then the handle release switch, snap switch, coin relay switch or plug connections could be the problem.   You can use a voltmeter or jumper wire to find out where the issue is. 

e.g. jumper wire 30 (yellow wire on coin switch) to any of the wires in the above and the coin relay should trip.  Jumping the wires on the coin switch is the easiest, then it's more effort to attach a jumper where you want.  I usually attach a jumper, shove the reel mech back in and either touch the other end of the jumper to wire 30 or attach a voltmeter on the jumper and put the other meter probe on orange wire 70 on any handy coil looking for 50V when the coin tripwire is down.

the caps being bad would only effect payout ... possibly shutting the machine down.  Resetting and coining is just the coin switch and three other switches bolded above.

below is what all that verbage above looks like on the schem.