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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Rod71 on June 09, 2021, 07:12:08 PM
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My mate just picked up this nice Golden Gate which I'm trying to get working for him.
Machine turns on and appears to coin up etc, but the mech is in need of some attention as it seems be stuck mid cycle and the reels are free spinning.
Any help would be much appreciated. See pics below :)
Rod
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Ok so I had a quick look at it and managed to reset it on the right hand side.
So the reels are still not indexed and are free spinning. When I put the mech back in the machine and spin it up with the handle. The reels kick, but the clock does nothing.
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Rod congratulations on your new game. I have only seen 1 of those in the states in my 16 years of collecting. MOST but not all problems around reel function involves lubrication. In you pictures I see the brown streaks and globs that used to be liquid lubricant 40 years ago. Try to scrape it off with your finger, hard as a rock in some cases. THATS what is in the shafts and pivot points on your reel mech.
First, get some kind of book with and exploded view of the reel mech. There are many out on the market
Second, your tools ready. I find that a screwdriver set and a fine pick set is helpful
Third, Clear out a BIG workspace and lay down a white towel so you dont loose parts
Forth, Select the light lubricant that you want and go to town!
This will require that you work the connection many times until if frees up.
This will take some time but it is worth it.
Please keep us posted
Ra
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Rod congratulations on your new game. I have only seen 1 of those in the states in my 16 years of collecting. MOST but not all problems around reel function involves lubrication. In you pictures I see the brown streaks and globs that used to be liquid lubricant 40 years ago. Try to scrape it off with your finger, hard as a rock in some cases. THATS what is in the shafts and pivot points on your reel mech.
First, get some kind of book with and exploded view of the reel mech. There are many out on the market
Second, your tools ready. I find that a screwdriver set and a fine pick set is helpful
Third, Clear out a BIG workspace and lay down a white towel so you dont loose parts
Forth, Select the light lubricant that you want and go to town!
This will require that you work the connection many times until if frees up.
This will take some time but it is worth it.
Please keep us posted
Ra
Thanks so much!
Yeah it's an awesome machine. I doubt there would be many left over here as well. It's the first one I've seen.
You're right about it being gummed up. Basically the issue is on the bottom shaft and the reel index linkages that attach to it. I'll get stuck into it over the weekend and work it free.
There doesn't seem to be schematics for this one. However, it's essentially "Circus" but a wide body and different art. So I'm wondering how similar the wiring would be?
The connectors in the top box are molex, where as the Circus uses a jones plug.
Rod
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There is someone on this forum that has LOTS of schematics. Perhaps start a new thread LOOKING FOR GOLDEN GATE SCHEMATICS. You have nothing to lose.
Ra
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The spring nearest the air cylinder is not factory.
Possibly the index arms / mechanisms are not returning and need to be cleaned.
These arms slide into the index reel slots to stop the reels.
Gently try to move the arms into the slots after the reels come to rest.
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I don't have 1133 schems.
problem is bally also made a bingo pinball machine called Golden Gate, so schematics on places like ebay are likely that.
the bingo schem drawing number is W-826-23.
pretty sure the golden gate slot schem is w-1046-2034 for an 1133 (danish market) and w-1046-2171 for the 1133-1.
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Had a little time over the weekend. Got the index arms moving and retracting nicely.
So as you can see from the video below. The arms retract and the reels kick (if they were in) but the clock is stuck tight. Would it be the clock itself, or is there an issue up stream that is jamming the clock?
https://youtu.be/4NtLmYIXzJA (https://youtu.be/4NtLmYIXzJA)
Cheers
Rod
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Never seen that before. What I did have is a rare occurrence where the clock moved. It looked normal to me but the clock fins were spinning slower than the shaft that it is pressed onto. I understand that this is a 1 in a million defect but perhaps it happened twice.
Ra
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The front bottom shaft seems to be stuck back. This shaft has the clock lever attached at the very left side.
That whole shaft should move freely thus activating the clock.
Will the clock fan move at all?
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The front bottom shaft seems to be stuck back. This shaft has the clock lever attached at the very left side.
That whole shaft should move freely thus activating the clock.
Will the clock fan move at all?
Yep, you can spin the fan counter clockwise a few tunes and it will spring back. It does turn clockwise from a resting position, but it's sluggish. I just tried it on my working Circus and it spins like a top.
I don't believe it's a lubrication issue. It's pretty much jammed.
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can you spin the variator pawl (red arrow below).
looks like it's not turning, and that'll prevent the timer link from moving toward the front of the game.
You can also test by lifting the arm up so it doesn't engage the pawl teeth and see what happens.
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In the video the 3 lowest links of the trip assembly levers also appeared to be stuck back.
Carefully detach the center link spring and slide it off the pin. Photograph or take note which hole the pin was in.
The attached lever on the shaft should move freely at this point.
If so, then the assembly near the back could be miss aligned. Possibly reassembled incorrectly.
Since you have another machine, you can compare components for proper position.
At a glance everything might look right. Compare every part and its position very carefully.
Sometimes when the index arms move to far forward, parts of the trip pawl assembly can slip into the wrong place.
Also the black slotted linkage bar on the outside left of the reels assembly chassis might be jammed.
This bar has the ratchet wheel on it.
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can you spin the variator pawl (red arrow below).
looks like it's not turning, and that'll prevent the timer link from moving toward the front of the game.
You can also test by lifting the arm up so it doesn't engage the pawl teeth and see what happens.
Yeah it turns, but my Circus has a metal wire hooked on the bakelite to the left of the wheel that ratchets when it turns. It's missing from this one. Not sure if it makes a difference.
The bar above the coin relay switch stack is jammed up as well. Not sure if thats a consequence of whatever is jammed up stream or not.
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Well it seems that you have the problem localized. I bet that you can find a donor reel mechanism for parts. Not sure but I think that you don't necessarily need a Golden Gate mech.
Ra
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my Circus has a metal wire hooked on the bakelite to the left of the wheel that ratchets when it turns. It's missing from this one. Not sure if it makes a difference.
The bar above the coin relay switch stack is jammed up as well. Not sure if thats a consequence of whatever is jammed up stream or not.
the little torsion spring behind the big extension spring is still in the parts manuals up to 1977, but your machine is 1978.
the bakelite bar is the timer link. It's pinned to the timing lever on the other side of the end plate, the timing lever is pinned to the timer shaft, the timer shaft is keyed into the clock ... so on piece stuff, all pieces stuck.
I'll bet on david's suggestion that the timer shaft is gummed up.
if you don't have the 2600 manual or 5000 manuals, you can find them on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/ (http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/)
pic below is from the 4200 manual (model 1063 - texas twin). You can see where the timer link variator pawl is supposed to be after the reels are indexed.
as david said tho, comparing to the circus is probably easier :-)
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Well it seems that you have the problem localized. I bet that you can find a donor reel mechanism for parts. Not sure but I think that you don't necessarily need a Golden Gate mech.
Ra
Bally EM's
Highly unlikely i'd find another mech over here. Bally EM's are few and far between compared to over in the US, and the ones that are over here are usually the lesser known ones that are rare over there lol. Add to that, it's a 3 reel wide body mech, so that probably narrows it down even more.
We'll get on top of it eventually :)
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In the video the 3 lowest links of the trip assembly levers also appeared to be stuck back.
Carefully detach the center link spring and slide it off the pin. Photograph or take note which hole the pin was in.
The attached lever on the shaft should move freely at this point.
If so, then the assembly near the back could be miss aligned. Possibly reassembled incorrectly.
Just to clarify. Do you mean remove the E Clip and remove the link with the 4 holes in it?.
The first reel lever on the shaft moves somewhat even when it's all connected, but reel 2 and 3 have no movement.
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Correct,
Make the lever / bushing independent from the shaft by removing the clip and spring.
The bushing should move freely side to side and rotate on the shaft.
Movement from side to side is minimal, basic allowance for alignment with the other moving parts.
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OK, removed the link with the 4 holes and the lever moves freely on the shaft. I'm thinking as suggested, someone has pulled it apart in the past and put it back together wrong, and it's jammed up on the first cycle. Not sure where to proceed from here :Scratch-Head:
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remove all three latch links. Note which holes each link used.
if it's easy to remove the link, then it's not holding the black timer shaft.
as you've found, the idler levers that the latch links attach to should spin freely on the timer shaft. The tab on the crank next to it pulls the latch links back, then the timer shaft should slowly rotate clockwise (looking from clock end). That allows the latch links to be pulled toward the back of the mech by the springs and they eventually release the reel index arms.
you did lift the arm on that turns the variator cam by the clock and verify it's not wedging anything? There's probably another variator on one of the latch links ... usually the third reel one.
your black timing shaft is stuck in the "retract the latch links" position. It's not rotating when you pull the handle. You took the clock off?
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Post a couple of photos of the trip-kicker assembly located lower back below the reels.
Well lit clear photos will make it easier to see anything out of place.
Also the return spring on the right side of the reels that all stretched out.
This could be the root of the problem.
If you have another machine, you could barrow the spring for testing.
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I dunno if anything under the reels can stop the timer shaft from rotating - assuming the idler levers aren't stuck to the timer shaft. The game does kick.
here's a vid of how the the latch links work I hacked together for someone else:
http://bingo.cdyn.com/bill/Timer%20Link.m4v (http://bingo.cdyn.com/bill/Timer%20Link.m4v)
if the timer shaft isn't just gunked up in the holes it spins in, then something is stopping the spring from pulling the timer link, which drives the clock, which spins the timer shaft.
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you did lift the arm on that turns the variator cam by the clock and verify it's not wedging anything? There's probably another variator on one of the latch links ... usually the third reel one.
Yeah it moves up and down freely. and the 3rd reel variator isn't binding at all.
\ You took the clock off?
Not yet. It scares me a little lol. I'll print out the exploded diagram. Anything to watch out for when pulling it apart?. Springs flying everywhere etc lol
Just wondering if I pull the clock apart, will that narrow down the issue?. Like the timing shaft might turn and it would confirm the issue is up stream towards the rear for example?
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Post a couple of photos of the trip-kicker assembly located lower back below the reels.
Well lit clear photos will make it easier to see anything out of place.
Also the return spring on the right side of the reels that all stretched out.
This could be the root of the problem.
If you have another machine, you could barrow the spring for testing.
Yep, I'll take some pics in the morning.
I can swap the spring over and report back. Hmmm how bad would a spring have to be for it to lock up like that though.
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Need to determine the cause before dismantling.
Thus avoiding any compounding problems.
Best to have the right spring in place, then proceed.
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OK, good spring in place.
Here's a couple of pics of the kickers in pre kicked and kicked position.
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Looks like there
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oops. I thought you'd swapped the clock ... dunno where I got that idea. So jammed up clock gears could be a problem also.
try pulling the top of the timer lever (red arrow below). Spin the fan blade clockwise if necessary.
david circled the pieces that prevent a held reel from spinning. I don't think they can cause your issue.
you don't actually take the clock apart. iir, you either:
1] remove the roll pin connecting the clock to the black timing shaft (33 in below pic)
or
2] the clock may just be slipped onto flats on the end of the timing shaft and you don't need to remove the roll pin.
in either case, remove the screws that are under the reels holding the clock to the end plate (e.g. 22 in below pic) and the clock slides off the timing shaft as an assembly. David or someone can tell you which way the clock is actually connected to the timing shaft. I'm thinking it's [2].
fwiw, you should be able to do this:
https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/pushing_timer_link.mp4
your link config is a bit different with the variator cam turning the other way, but the idea is the same. Note also the position of the main shaft by the coin relay and the timer link pivoting on the red arrow piece (kinda behind the spring)
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Looks like there
Yep there's a bar underneath them and it actuates smoothly. The 3 of them all move nicely.
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2] the clock may just be slipped onto flats on the end of the timing shaft and you don't need to remove the roll pin.
in either case, remove the screws that are under the reels holding the clock to the end plate (e.g. 22 in below pic) and the clock slides off the timing shaft as an assembly. David or someone can tell you which way the clock is actually connected to the timing shaft. I'm thinking it's [2].
fwiw, you should be able to do this:
OK, so I removed the 3 screws holding the clock on to the chasis. Had to make up a custom tool to remove one of the screws because the mech isn't in it's home position and access was a pain to say the least!
Anyway, after all that the clock is still stuck tight to the timing shaft.
Should I move on to the roll pin?. If I remove that will cogs and parts just drop out all over the place? lol
Thanks so much for the help guys, it's awesome :)
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Pretty sure the pin needs to be removed.
Beware the fan shaft is small in diameter and can be damaged easily.
Don’t remember if there was an exploded view of the reels mechanism posted earlier on this post.
It would show the roll pin.
The clock is assembled together with spacers that are pressed in and mushroomed over one side.
I believe the 4 small screws go into the opposite side plate.
The clock should come off as a unit.
This would be a good time to spray with some cleaner and re-lube.
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... I'm thinking it's [2].
and I'd be wrong,
50-50 chances I get wrong 87% of the time. I wonder if that's why Las Vegas used to comp my airfare and living expenses :-)
thanks david!
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Pretty sure the pin needs to be removed.
Beware the fan shaft is small in diameter and can be damaged easily.
Ahh, finally getting around to having another look at this.
How do you remove the pin?
Looks like a 1/16 Allen, but not having any luck with that. hmmm
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it's a roll pin (torsion pin).
you need a punch to drive it out or a special tool. If you have to buy a punch (probably 1/8"), the ideal ones are called roll pin punches or pilot punches. They have a nub on the end that fits into the pin so the punch self-centers.
if you're in a hurry, cutting the point of an appropriately sized nail may work if the pin shifts before the nail bends. It can help to tap the protruding end of the pin flush with the collar to break it loose if it's stuck in there.
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Woo hoo back again lol. I've been brewing and kegging beer. Gotta love hobbies :)
OK, so got myself a roll pin punch and removed the clock. I'm thinking it has issues. The main gear that drives the shaft will turn counter clockwise but it clicks when you turn it. Clockwise it barely turns a few millimetres and stops. The 2 smaller gears behind the bigger one will turn both ways and spin the fan, but there is a clunk or a flat spot half way through the turn. This is after being cleaned and lubed.
If the clock is bad, where can I source a replacement? I'm thinking they should be pretty easy to come by (famous last words lol)
Cheers
Rod
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might as well take the clock apart if you haven't to look for problems. There is a ratchet inside there, so clicking is right.
the big gear with the roll pin shaft only turns around 45 degrees, so if the teeth are worn you can spin it 180 degrees and have the new teeth on the other side last you for another 100 years.
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Finally another update with some good news.
Replaced the clock and I have it spinning like a top :)
Now on to the electrics!
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Great, this would be a good time to dissect the clock to see what makes it tick.
Basically split it in half and see what is missing broken or out of placement.
Possibly a simple fix, results being a spare clock or parts.
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Great, this would be a good time to dissect the clock to see what makes it tick.
Basically split it in half and see what is missing broken or out of placement.
Possibly a simple fix, results being a spare clock or parts.
Yeah ended up swapping it with a guy who i'm sure will take a look at it. :)
OK so powered up and this is where we are at....
Game coins up (Insert Coin light > Pull Handle light)
You pull the handle and it cycles correctly and goes back to Insert Coin mode.
No payouts in regular game mode, but forcing it into 10 bonus spin tunnel mode it will pay out when you get a target on the 3rd reel. Although it's paying 2 or 3 coins over. 13 instead of 10 and 22 instead of 20 etc. Winner Paid light doesn't come on, though I haven't checked the bulb.
So clearly the hopper is operating. Should I start looking at the switch stacks on the left side of the reel mech? I'm thinking because nothing is paying, there must be a relay out of adjustment, and the bonus game is paying because there is a seperate relay for that in the insert.
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Have you cleaned the payout relay? Top left rear of hopper.
Also the wiper boards might need to be cleaned.
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Have you cleaned the payout relay? Top left rear of hopper.
Yeah those switches seem good. I noticed the zero switch on the front of the stepper isn't making contact at step one, so I will have a look closer at that tomorrow :)
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I noticed the zero switch on the front of the stepper isn't making contact at step one, so I will have a look closer at that tomorrow :)
the zero switch by the spiral cam usually just disconnects the payout counter reset coil so it doesn't fire when the unit is already reset.
it just needs to be closed when the payout counter is at the minimum pay position, so it's not essential that it closes at the first step .
your game has a separate payout relay for the tunnel? If so, circus models 928 / 931 wouldn't be good "similar' games.
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your game has a separate payout relay for the tunnel? If so, circus models 928 / 931 wouldn't be good "similar' games.
I'm guessing that is the case as it pays out only in tunnel mode.
So the hopper is really different compared to my Circus. Way lighter, and it doesn't have the payout relay, so it must be in the insert. The switches I checked and cleaned before were for the reset coil.
The hopper also doesn't have the hopper full golf ball switch, so i'm not sure how it determines that. When I first powered it on the LED payout counter was at like 226 and all inserted cons would divert instead of going into the hopper. When I forced it into tunnel mode, it started paying out and then the coins would go into the hopper. I've cleaned up the stepper so it resets a lot easier now.
Anyway, so there's 5 relays in the insert, none of which are labeled. Is there an easy way to determine the payout relay going by certain wire colours etc?
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Oh man. Just looking at the hopper again and had a sinking feeling that maybe someone has removed the payout relay, as the mounting holes are there. But the rear of the beau plug is pretty much full of wires, and there's no loose ends from what I can tell.
So looking at my Circus, there's 4 relays in the insert, and golden gate has 5.
Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving to my American friends :)
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Time to stop overthinking, and wipe the white board clean lol.
So why would it only pay out in the tunnel feature. Well all you need for a pay in the bonus pulls is a target on reel 3.
Hmmm, so for any other pays to register in normal game mode, Reel 1 has to be functional, otherwise nothing will pay. Makes sense! Lets have a closer look.
The pic below shows the wiper for the second line of rivets is bent back and not making contact at all. Same with the 3rd one to a lesser degree.
What is the best way to straighten these out without mangling them?
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if the wiper fingers are mangled, I just remove the wiper from the arm so you can straighten the fingers and make them all "droop" the same amount so the tension against the rivets is even.
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Progress!
So after adjusting the wiper switches we now have it paying out.
Only issues now are that it overpays by 2 coins. 4 for 1 cherry. 12 for 3 oranges etc.
Also, it's diverting coins away from the hopper again. The coin lockout coil on the door makes a racket, so manipulating the metal piece shuts it up for a short period of time.
As I mentioned earlier, the hopper doesn't have the golf ball switch, so i'm not sure how it knows when it's full. But as it's from 1978 it does have a coins paid meter on the reel glass with what looks like red LED digits. Sometimes it resets back to zero after a pay, and other times it doesn't. Not sure if that is related to overpaying, coins diverting away from the hopper etc.
Cheers
Rod
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The hopper looks like the newer style, it does not have the wiffle ball. The weight of the coins in the bowel will trip the switch to divert coins.
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The hopper looks like the newer style, it does not have the wiffle ball. The weight of the coins in the bowel will trip the switch to divert coins.
Ah! That explains the switch on the base of it :)
Gave it a bit of a tweak and coins are going into the hopper now. Thanks!
Overpaying and counter reset to go :)
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for the overpay, is the zero stop bumper misadjusted, worn, melted, or whatever and the payout counter wipers are resetting too far counter-clockwise?
if you manually step up the payout counter, the wipers should step off the 2 trace on the second step, step off the 10 trace on the 10th, etc.
the zero stop bumper is the pencil eraser type thing the green wedge on the spiral cam hits when the unit is reset.
I dunno if a led meter would be original to the machine, but in any case there should be a power wire, a reset wire and an increment wire going to the meter.
a typical 50V EM win meter would be wire 70 for the power, wire 84 for increment and wire 96 for reset. Wire 84 was sometimes the wire on the payout counter step-up coil.
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for the overpay, is the zero stop bumper misadjusted, worn, melted, or whatever and the payout counter wipers are resetting too far counter-clockwise?
if you manually step up the payout counter, the wipers should step off the 2 trace on the second step, step off the 10 trace on the 10th, etc.
the zero stop bumper is the pencil eraser type thing the green wedge on the spiral cam hits when the unit is reset.
Yep it's manually stepping up correctly and stepping off the trace. Bumper seems to be OK.
But goofing around with it I observed the following. If I remove the first 2 coins from the hopper, the one under the roller, and the next one. It will pay out correctly on all pays except the 4 highest ones
On the higher pays I'm getting 25 instead of 50 and 85 instead of 100 etc. I think this is a seperate issue from the 2 coin overpay.
Also I'm getting a lot of hopper jams once there's say more than 50 coins in the bowl. Am I missing a part?
You're right about the coin counter. Just looked at other examples online and they don't have this counter. It actually looks like the ones they used on the late 70s Aristocrats over here. No idea why you'd swap that over. It does look neat though :)
Rod
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Looks like I'm missing the agitator for the hopper.
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yup on needing the agitator.
the game had a mechanical win paid meter, so someone replaced it with an led one.
overpay by a couple coins sounds like a gummed up hopper brake. When pay is done, the brake stops the motor armature/rotor from spinning and the pinwheel stops immediately.
when the brake isn't working, the pinwheel will coast to a stop and eject extra coins.
large pays stopping early sounds like an issue with the C.O. (carryover) trace on the payout counter disc. The outboard wiper fingers get the pay going, but they don't move precisely enough for an exact pay. The outboard fingers leave the winning trace a few steps early and the CO trace finishes the pay to the exact amount.
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overpay by a couple coins sounds like a gummed up hopper brake. When pay is done, the brake stops the motor armature/rotor from spinning and the pinwheel stops immediately.
when the brake isn't working, the pinwheel will coast to a stop and eject extra coins.
That does sound logical. However it kind of goes against my observation of it paying correctly if i remove the first 2 coins from the pinwheel.
I found a guy with exactly the same problem on the forum back in 2014.
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=2225.0 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=2225.0)
The issue was the B switches on the mech. So I will take a look at that when I get a chance and report back :)
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interesting ...
usually a reel mech C switch prevents win detection until the reel mech is nearly at rest after the spin. The B switch should have reset the payout counter well before that happens.
the B switch closes twice - once during the windup and again as the clock is letting the linkage return to rest. The second time should be ignored because the zero switch on the payout counter should be open. If your C switch closed way early tho, I guess the game could start paying - which would close the zero switch, then B resets the payout counter again.
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interesting ...
usually a reel mech C switch prevents win detection until the reel mech is nearly at rest after the spin. The B switch should have reset the payout counter well before that happens.
the B switch closes twice - once during the windup and again as the clock is letting the linkage return to rest. The second time should be ignored because the zero switch on the payout counter should be open. If your C switch closed way early tho, I guess the game could start paying - which would close the zero switch, then B resets the payout counter again.
I've noticed that when it pays, it pays like instantly as the 3rd reel indexes. On my Circus, there's a slight delay, like 1/3 of a second.
Also looking at the switch stack in the pic below, does it look like the whole stack is kind of leaning to the right when it's in the home position?
Is manually pushing the timer link by hand enough to simulate a reel spin? If so, i can make a video.
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the only reference I have at the moment is my 929.
see https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/pushing_timer_link.mp4
I'd compare to that and your other games.
you do have an extra switch on the B stack that is operated by a peg on the timer link (vs. the stack riding on the top edge of the link). No schematic, so don't know what it's doing. Looks like you have a B-1 switch with orange/black and fat yellow wire (30) on the blades. That would be the same as circus, and that's the switch resetting the payout counter. 'course it's behind the extra switch so can't see it :-)
your C stack does look tilted in a way that would make the switches operate faster, but that could just be camera angle. B-1 should not be closed when the peg is pushing the C stack.
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you do have an extra switch on the B stack that is operated by a peg on the timer link (vs. the stack riding on the top edge of the link). No schematic, so don't know what it's doing.
Ha! Neither do I, but I adjusted it to make it close a little later and it went from a 2 coin overpay to a 1 coin overpay :)
Gave it another tweak and it's all good!
Cleaning the other B switches helped with the pay counter resetting after a win.
Final issue is the underpay on the pays of 50 and above. I'll take a look at the CO trace on the hopper and report back :)
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Hi Rod,
Hope you come back and visit this forum as I may be able to help you. I have the exact same machine and am also in Australia! We can compare machines and supply pictures etc. I have a small drama with a burnt diode and resistor I need a hand with to.. If you see this feel free to email me back. I Added you as a buddy but you don’t have an email address listed to contact you with. Cheers Brett