bally 929-1 restoration

[Peter321]

small update
I have adjusted the 100, 200 and 250 outer wipers so the are definitely off their track at about 83, 180 and 220 counting.
Due to time constraint I was not able to check the odds wiring, but did some counting:

1 coin: win of 2 gives 1, win of 10 gives 5 and win of 20 gives 10

with nr of coins going from 1-2-3-4-5-6 the register should count for lowest combination ( "BIN" ) 2-4-6-8-10-12 but actually counted only half, so 1-2-3-4-5-6;

 for the combination 'BINGO"with 1 coin it should count 100 but did the following (checked it 4 times):first counting 88, then stops, when pushing the step-up arm down manually , the counting starts again till total of 105

so I have still some work to do 

[wolftalk]

where are the wipers when the small pays end wrt the end of the appropriate trace?

if pay stops but nudging the wipers makes the pay continue - or stepping the unit to make the wipers move - usually the traces need to cleaned.  Synthetic steel wool and isopropyl alcohol usually removes the surface oxidation and other crud.

[Peter321]

I decided to take payout unit apart to check board; cleaned board, which was reasonable clean, and checked the 4 diodes on backside board; 3 of them are ok, but fourth one showed 0 volt, would be broken normally; but on front side of board a bridge wire was soldered so I think that accounts for the 0 volt. See red circles picture, right side diode is connected to wire 81.
In checking the switches again I found that the zeroswitch in open position, the reset position, has continuity; so open or closed would make no difference?

[wolftalk]

the payout counter zero switch near the stop bumper in front of the spiral cam just disconnects the reset coil when the payout counter is already reset.  It reduces wear on the mechanism by not firing the reset coil when it's not needed.

if the zero switch is stuck closed, you wouldn't notice a problem.  If the zero switch is stuck open, then the game would not pay any amount <= whatever previous payout occurred, and any higher payout you just get the difference. e.g. if a 2 pay happened, you'd get no more 2 pays.  If you them get a 10 pay, you'd get 8 more coins.

the diodes and shorting one may not be noticeable either since a lot of the circuits the diodes interact with are controlling the jackpot meter and jackpot lockup relays.

if a diode fails open it could affect some payouts.

just to make sure, the game pays correctly pays <=20  in single coin play when in coin payout, but pays 1/2 the correct amount on those pays in credit payout?

[Peter321]

Zero switch is stuck closed. In coinplay payout till 20 is ok, tested several times but only 1 coin different sometimes which is due to mechanical action hopper in relation to coinsize. That was why I was testing in credit play. Measuring with ohm meter inner wipers gave correct behaviour in counting 2, 10 and 20; I was puzzled by counting the 100, 200 and 250,did not seem to work, maybe due to bridge 100 contact with last contact ( wire 81 )
On payout relay and delay relay are capacitors, could those be a problem ?

[wolftalk]

one difference between coin pay and credit pay on the 929 is coin pay steps the payout counter mechanically via the link going up to the coin out roller mechanism.  The payout counter step-up coil is not used. 

In credit pay, the payout counter is stepped by the step up coil which yanks the step-up arm harder than you or the roller linkage can.   If there's wear on the linkage pivot points or an issue with the coil stop or plunger, the step-up arm may grab two ratchet teeth instead of one ... which would halve your payout.

you really need to verify that the payout counter wipers are in the correct position after a payout ends.  You should be able to watch the roller link arm or better - video it so you can count how many times the payout counter coil fired.  (the link arm will still move down in credit pay, but the hopper motor won't be running).

[Peter321]

Thanks Wolftalk for being so patient with me
Preliminary result:
I have disconnected the step-up arm from the roller coin out mechanism so no influence from that part.
So connected win 20 results in 10 and win 100 results now in 75.
Disconnected mechanism results in win 20 gives 25 and win 100 gives 55.

Work in progress

[wolftalk]

how many times did the payout counter step?

it may be easier to connect the roller link arm and watch that.

if the payout counter is not stepping the same number of times as the payout amount in single coin play, you need to solve that issue first.

[Peter321]

I have checked again contacts and payout unit but found nothing so made some video’s.
1 coin, 2 coins, 1 credit and 2 credits. In credit mode always half od what it should be.
Looks like in credit mode setup arm is moving slower.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdTA07ryIKIN2LKH9w_hZZAnpew6Dmw-Y

Rachet and pawls looking good and in manual/coin action no double counting can be noticed

(Summary: counting credits and coins went well except for win 200 and 250 which did not counted correctly; torsion spring sprang from rachet and was damaged; replaced by new one; rachet can freely turn till end and resets to zero, also with small rotation. Adapted wipers for 200 and 250 on payout arm, Since then credit counting is half of coin counting and 200 and 250 still not correct.)

[wolftalk]

for a 1 credit play and a 20 win, your video shows the link arm moving 10 times and payout stops.  That's not correct.  In single coin play, the arm should move once for every credit added, so it should move 20 times.

assuming the wipers have actually stepped off the end of the 20 trace when the payout stopped, your problem is the payout counter step-up pawl is grabbing two ratchet teeth instead of one when the payout is electrically stepped.

I'm not sure if bad unedited video or bad text is worse, so let's try video:

https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Payout_Counter_Stepup.m4v

if your pawl is grabbing two teeth, are the plungers in the wrong coils, the coil stop is broken, the pawl pivot points worn, the posts the pawls pivot on loose, or the pawl bent?

[Peter321]

Thanks Wolftalk for your quick response
Plungers are in the correct coils (which I replaced already earlier as they were broken)
Coilstop is ok; so I need to concentrate on pawls and pivot posts.
Unfortunately I have comparison regarding loose or worn .
Rachet teeth seems to be ok.
I have seen your video and will check behaviour of pawls
Thanks again and will let you know my results

[Peter321]

I have made 2 video’s, one of the wipers and one of the pawl/rachet ( and thereby admiring your skills to make video’s !)
Pawl is hooking one and no double teeth and wipers are moving correctly, so 20 times plunger makes 20 times wiper movement, checking continuity with feed and wiper confirms wiper is off track with rail 10, 5,2 and 20; 100,200 and 250 did not work.
It seems to work like in your video.
Difference:
In your video the beginning of the tracks are clearly visible and not hidden by the arm, looks like starting point wipers is diifferent, as on my system the arm is hiding it. Maybe different disc or I need to do lot of adjustment?
Disc code is m-645-219
https://youtu.be/LG6IOYxtZdk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7sdU5LWjgXA&feature=share

[wolftalk]

when the coil pulls the pawl arm, it's yanking it a lot harder than you are doing in your video.  It's possible that two teeth are grabbed when the coil does it, especially if the pawl is close to grabbing two teeth when you do it manually - which it looks like it is.  Try pushing hard on the pawl leftwards to see if you can get it to grab a second tooth.

if the following is true:
1] the payout counter steps once for every credit added
2] the payout counter wipers are off the end of the 20 trace after 10 credits are added

then the pawl MUST be grabbing two teeth.  If you can video the ratchet/pawls when the game is paying, that'd verify.  For credit pay, the payout counter can be flipped down and the link going up to the roller arm can stay detached.

the most common cause I've seen for this is the hole in the pawl where the pawl mounts on the arm pin is elongated from wear so the pawl can move further left than it should.  A loose arm pin or badly worn coil stop can have the same effect.

another possibility is the tab on the reset pawl is bent too far to the right. The step-up pawl pushes the ratchet clockwise a little too far so the reset pawl clears the tooth edge and there is a small gap between the reset pawl and the tooth.   When the step-up plunger starts moving in for the next step, the torsion spring tension turns the ratchet backwards/counter-clockwise (looking at the ratchet side of unit) until the reset pawl touches the tooth and stops the ratchet rotation.  That backwards rotation changes how close the step-up pawl is to grabbing the second tooth when the plunger is all the way into the coil.

you should be able to move the step-up plunger in a little and see the ratchet turn backwards.  If not, bend the reset pawl tab a little to the left.  The goal is to make sure the step-up pawl is around halfway on the tooth when the plunger is all the way into the coil ... or at least nowhere near the edge of the next tooth.

[Peter321]

Just to be sure before taking risk to beak someting.
With a win of 10 the rachet turns 2 tomes 5 is 10 times but the plunger only count 5
https://youtu.be/p0z3377VC84

When moving setup rachet to the left, the rachet turn fractuin counter clockwise and pawl stays on top of tooth
That is because reset pawl is not stopping the rachet

https://youtu.be/w5QafqOftWs

Wolftalk, I thinkk that is what you are pointing out

Solution is then to bend reset pawl slightly upwards so no room between pawl and rachet

[wolftalk]

your second video looks correct.  The step-up pawl should push the ratchet so there is a slight gap between the reset pawl and the tooth, and if you pop the step-up pawl out of a tooth like you are doing, the ratchet will turn a little counter-clockwise until the reset pawl stops it.  Due to the counter-clockwise rotation, the step-up pawl will not drop back behind a tooth.  It's working right, and if anything you'd need to bend the reset pawl a little so the ratchet moves more counter-clockwise when the step-up pawl is popped out.

need to see a video of where the step-up pawl is when the plunger is pushed all the way into the coil against the coil stop like the video I posted at around 1:31 into the video.   My finger is just holding the spring out of the way for better viewing - my thumb is pushing the plunger into the coil.  Note how the step-up pawl has moved left past the 1st tooth and is about halfway to the 2nd tooth edge when the plunger hits the stop. I'm moving the plunger in/out of the coil a little to show how far the pawl is sliding on the 2nd tooth, but the pawl must not get near 2nd tooth edge ... if the pawl grabs the second tooth also, you double advance the payout counter and your payout is halved.

ideally, a video of the pawls and ratchet when the game is paying then slow down the video replay will show what is going on, but it can be hard to get the right camera angle to see the teeth.

in credit play, the distance the step-up pawl moves is determined by the step-up plunger length and the coil stop.   If the plunger or coil stop has gotten shorter due to wear, the pawl will move more and get closer to grabbing two teeth.   Wear/elongation of holes/pins/axles mentioned in previous posts can have the same effect.

pics below are measurements of the plunger and stop.  The reset and step-up coil stop are the same ... if one is worn more than the other, put the worn one on the reset coil.

[Peter321]

Story continues. I have checked coil stops of both coils, they are 0,401 inch, same as yours; plunger is 1,93 inch, same as yours.
Tried to duplicate your video with pawl movement. Do not know effect of pushing spring aside
Should I try to bend set up pawl in such away that it moves not so much towards next tooth?
Will be challenging if it is so critical

https://youtu.be/1xgME73ZcvI

[wolftalk]

your pawl movement looks good, so you are in the interesting situation where it works when manually operating the unit, but doesn't work when electrically operating the unit.

the main differences are how hard and fast the plunger is moving.

if you can do your first video in post #73 with the camera looking at the pawls/ratchet and ideally the entire step-up arm, you may be able to see what is happening. 

if that's not doable, then push the plunger in and then try pushing the step-up pawl to the left with your finger to see if you can get it to shift far enough left to grab the next tooth.  e.g. push pawl left at red arrow in pic below.

these are things I've seen:

1] the post the step-up arm pivots on is loose.

when the plunger yanks hard into the coil, the post rocks and the pawl moves further left causing an extra tooth to grab.  Grab the entire step-up arm and try and move it around to see if it's snug on the post and the post is solidly mounted on the unit frame.

2] the peg/post that connects the pawl to the step-up arm is worn and/or the pawl hole it goes thru is elongated.

momentum from the plunger pulling in hard causes the pawl to shift left and grab an extra tooth.  Hold the arm and see if the pawl is snug on the peg/post.

this is the most common of these very rare problems ... i.e. I've seen it twice :-)

3] the springs on the pawls/arms are wrong

if the step-up arm spring is wrong (wrong spring, connected in wrong place, etc.) and it is so strong its pull is "throwing" the ratchet far enough for the reset pawl to engage the next tooth.   The shorter and usually redder looking spring goes on the pawl ears (furthest from the ratchet center).

to test this possibility, you can put your finger on the ratchet face with some pressure to create more drag during payout and see if if stops double stepping.

[Peter321]

Wolftalk, I really appreciate your time and help and will follow up your advice and keep trying.
In the meantime I will try to find also another set of pawls which may can solve the issue
Keep you posted

[Peter321]

I have looked back the video and was wundering if speed of plunger is not too low;
The set up coil was broken and replaced it by another one with code B-26-1100 which was written by hand on the old one. Should be ok as I saw they are also used in payout of other continentals

[wolftalk]

B-26-1100 is right. 

An incorrect coil could be:
- too strong - excess wear on coil stop and possibly excess heat, but it'd work okay
- too weak - unit misses steps or doesn't step
- wrong size - wouldn't fit between bracket and coil stop properly

generally speaking, you can substitute coils with ones that are similar in terms of wire gauge and turns (therefore resistance), and it'll work fine.  For a stepper, nearly anything that is the same dimensions will work, but it may get too hot if the coil is activated a lot.  All the step-up coil needs to do is teeter-totter the step-up arm and stretch springs.  The springs do the work of rotating the ratchet when the coil power is removed.

the plungers have nylon collars around them near the coil stop end ... those still on there?

if you take off the step-up arm, the step up pawl section at the top of the arm should spin easy on the post, but there shouldn't be any side-to-side play.