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Author Topic: Bally Super Continental [Model 891-20] no payout / winner light on all the time  (Read 4648 times)

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Offline wolftalk

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the anti-cheat relay has a charred coil wrapper because the coil is powered all the time.  The wrapper turning black is normal.  As long as the coil powers and holds the armature plate on the coil top without buzzing too loudly, it's ok.

on earlier 891 machines, the anti-cheat relay is a 3 lug device that is designed to reduce the current/heat.  Looks like your game they changed the design to use a more easily found 2-lug coil.

in the picture below, the orange arrow is pointing to wire 70.  Stick a meter probe there.

the red arrow is pointing to wire 90, and the purple arrow to wire 27-2. 

you should see 50VAC with the other meter probe on wire 27-2 at end of game (coin relay and handle release relays NOT tripped). 

when the anti-cheat relay is powered, you should see 50VAC between wire 70 and wire 90.

Offline henko666

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UPDATE: I guess this is positive 🙂 Cleaned and checked all the switches for each coil on top unit and some of them did not make conatct so did fix some. Now for the first time somehing happens when I get a win, the 50v fuse blows and the machine goes into tilt mode. Same thing if I play in credit or coin mode. tried different winlines but all blow the fuse. So what what in top unit get activated when a win occurs and now blows the fuse?

Offline henko666

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UPDATE Saturday: ok guess this is positive 🙂 cleaned and checked all the switches for each coil in the top unit and some of them did not make conatct so did fix some. Now for the first time somehing happens when I get a win, the 50v fuse blow and the machine goes into tilt mode. Same thing if I play in credit or coin mode. tried different winlines but all blow the fuse.

So the status of the slot machine right now is that the hopper still dont reset and when i get a win the 50v fuse blows and the machine goes into tilt mode in both coin and credit mode.
The coins acceptor works and releases handle and the multiplier steps up.  You can press button to play with credit thats works too with multiplier and it steps up like with coins. The hopper motor works because it mixes coins with every pull.

Offline DavidLee

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Best to re-inspect prior work preformed on the top unit.
Look for wire(s) that might of been crossed causing a short.
Check all springs for correct placement and coil armatures for proper function.
Loose hardware screws, washer etc that could have shifted during the cleaning.
Check plug / pins connections as in pushed out / shorting.

Offline henko666

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The short comes from the anti cheat relay. The coil is damaged the whole right side where the connectors for the cables are is loose. The plastic has also melted on one of the switchblades, you can see that on the picture. So I have to replace this. Does anybody know what replacment coil I shoiuld use. This is not like the other coils in the top unit since it got 3 connections, the other ones got 2. And it's so black I cant see any numbers on it.

Offline wolftalk

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oops ... ignore post 20 I guess :-) The 1100 manual shows the relay mounting boards swapped ... I shoulda checked the wire colors on the coil.

the anti-cheat relay isn't really needed since you probably aren't worried about players thumping the machine.  I'd just disconnect the red/white wire from the coil and use a zip tie to strap the armature plate down on the coil top ... or you can misadjust all the switches to behave like the armature plate is down.

if you want to replace the coil, you have three options.  The 3-lug coil is G-34-580/2020 (http://www.pin-games.se/parts/pinball/bally/coils.htm), and a 2-lug coil that can be used is G-33-2800.  If you use the 2 lug coil, you can remove the black jumper wire going to the middle lug ... it's not needed - and neither is the switch it's attached to.  There is a possibility that the two-lug coil won't work due to the number of switches on the relay.

You can also buy some 34 gauge "magnet" wire and:
1] attach end to an end lug that has the red/white wire on it.
2] wrap 580 turns of wire around, scrape off some insulation and attach to middle lug - don't cut the wire
3] wrap an additional 2020 turns of wire around and attach to the remaining lug

it's easiest to use a knife/razor and scrape the insulating varnish off.


Offline henko666

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Thank you so much for the info that I can bypass the Anti cheat relay coil, it's not easy to find replacment for those old coils. Ok so did that but no change, it was not the anti cheat relay causing the short. But good to get that out from the machine since it just crumbled into small pieces when i took it out. As soon as I get a winner the fuse blows. I followed OldRenos post about "Checking your Bally EM for shorts" and I got the shorts reading on the mulktimeter. Then I took out hopper, reel mech and connections to top unit but the short is still there. So could it be in the female side of on of the beau plugs then maybe?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 10:50:09 AM by henko666 »

Offline DavidLee

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The red/white wire appears to have burned through the insulation in two places near the coil.
Possibly it has other burned areas that could be shorting out.

Also, removing units to check for shorts is helpful in some cases.
But since it blows on a win, all units are involved.
Thus removing one unit opens most circuits in between.
Setting up a payout and blocking contact circuits between units might be helpful.
Or meter check individual wires for shorts between switches might reveal a problem.
High powered magnifying glasses and bright light help when looking at contacts and wire connections.

Offline wolftalk

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Thank you so much for the info that I can bypass the Anti cheat relay coil, it's not easy to find replacment for those old coils. Ok so did that but no change, it was not the anti cheat relay causing the short. But good to get that out from the machine since it just crumbled into small pieces when i took it out. As soon as I get a winner the fuse blows. I followed OldRenos post about "Checking your Bally EM for shorts" and I got the shorts reading on the mulktimeter. Then I took out hopper, reel mech and connections to top unit but the short is still there. So could it be in the female side of on of the beau plugs then maybe?

although your anti-cheat coil looked roasted, it must have been working or the tilt light would always be on.

for the short, where are you putting the meter probes and how is your meter configured?

when you have a winner, the first thing that happens is the payout relay powers, which turns on the hopper.  If the hopper doesn't turn on before the 50V fuse blows, you probably have a short on wire 90.  A quick test is to stick paper under all wiper fingers on the payout counter and see what happens.  If the fuse still blows, remove the hopper entirely and see what happens when you have a winner.

also check if it matters which winner you have.  A cherry win is simplest.

a circuit breaker will save you from emptying the piggy bank to buy fuses - something like these:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832626132113.html

you need to add wire and alligator clips so you can attach it to the fuse holder.  If you can't find an exact amperage, just use one that is close.

6.3mm connectors like these are the matching size if you want to have multiple breakers and be able to swap the wires/clips onto the one you need.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832640182852.html



Offline henko666

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Ok so first I followed this guide exactly looking for shorts, and I do get a low reading in Ohms even thou hopper, reel mech and top unit cable's are disconnected.
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=17559.05

The hopper does not turn on before the 50v fuse blow.

When I put a piece of paper under all wiper fingers on payout counter the fuse do NOT blow, nothing happens at all. See picture.


Offline wolftalk

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the wiper fingers connect the wire 90 circuit to the payout relays.  One is on the hopper, the other is on the insert board in the top comparment.  Wire 93 is the main wire going to those things.

to narrow stuff down, it may be worth putting paper under all the payout counter wiper fingers except the one on the 2 trace.   If the fuse blows on a cherry win, you know something on wire 93 is causing the issue.

if you don't want to blow a fuse, what is the resistance between wire 93 and wire 70 on each payout relay coil?  Pull the hopper and measure both relays with the hopper out.

also just look at the payout relay coils and see if one looks burnt up.

Offline DavidLee

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The 200 250 payout contact blades appear to be discolored.
Possibly to much heat indicating a short.
Hard to tell from the photo.
As Wolftalk mentioned, isolate all the contacts.
Then remove the card insulator one contact at a time.
This could narrow down the problem.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 06:11:30 AM by DavidLee »

Offline henko666

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Thank you wolftalk and DavidLee for suggestions. I have ordered a circuit breaker from amazon and will get it Thuesday next week so I will put everything on hold til then. I also need couple of they rest from this machine there has been many late nights lately :) I will be back with an update next week after the circuit breaker arrives..

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Sounds good,

Sometimes when you take a break, problems become obvious.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2022, 10:08:16 AM by wolftalk »

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Got one thing I wonder. Checked payout relay on the top unit. The first switch from the left gives a closed signal on my multimeter even thou its clearly open? See pictures. I checked the cable solderings above and they do not touch each other there. The colour of the cables are yellow and grey/red. So is this normal? Are there relay switches which get a closed signal from elsewhere than when the switchblade touch each other?

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Got one thing I wonder. Checked payout relay on the top unit. The first switch from the left gives a closed signal on my multimeter even thou its clearly open? See pictures. I checked the cable solderings above and they do not touch each other there. The colour of the cables are yellow and grey/red. So is this normal? Are there relay switches which get a closed signal from elsewhere than when the switchblade touch each other?

yes, there are many paths between those two wires even when the switch is open.

the two wires you are looking at are 30 (yellow highlight on schem below) and 91-2 (red highlight).

the green highlight shows many of the ways you can get from 91-2 to 30.  Some may not work depending on the state of switches in the path, but the key thing is the loads (lamps, coils, motors, and transformer windings) are fairly low resistance devices, so many meters in "continuity/buzzer" mode will go through them.

what you see on your meter depends on what mode your meter was in.  I assume since the payout relay armature was down on the coil top, you had the power on, the relay powered, and the meter was set to measure AC voltage.

voltages
----------

the key thing when measuring voltage is ... when no current is flowing in a circuit, loads are effectively just shorts.  There's no voltage drop across the load when no current is flowing thru the load.

in other words, IF there is a closed path from 91-2 to 20, then wire 91-2 is at the same voltage as wire 20, so you would measure 6VAC with probes on wire 30 and 91-2.

if you close the switch tho, current flows in the circuit and wire 91-2 is now the same voltage as wire 30.  Every closed path in the circuit up to the lamps is the same as wire 30, so you'd need to have one probe on wire 20 and the other anywhere in the closed circuit to measure 6V. 

the meter is measuring the voltage difference between the two probes. 

the test question is ... what happens if you have a meter probe on wire 30, the other probe on wire 91-2, and you open the #1 odds motor and replay key switches so 91-2 isn't connected to anything ... then what does the meter say?

the answer is it's meaningless.  If wire 91-2 isn't connected to either end of the transformer winding somehow, then it's just floating in space and whatever reading you get would be "phantom" voltage created by stray magnetic fields in the wires.

if you figure out what the above is talking about, it can be pretty handy since you can prove there is a closed path from each probe to each side of the transformer winding.  However, you don't know if the closed path is able to carry the current the load wants.  It's possible for a cruddy connection to add enough resistance in a closed circuit to reduce the current enough that the load - typically a coil - doesn't work.

the ideal test is always probing a closed circuit - either by getting all the switches and stepper wipers in the right state, or bypassing stuff with jumper wires.  Then measure the voltage on the two load terminals.  If it's not the transformer voltage, something else in the circuit is adding significant resistance and limiting current.  That shows up as a voltage drop.  You'd keep one probe on the power rail (20 for the 6V circuit and 70 for the 50V), and poke along the closed path with the other probe.  When you find a connection where the voltage measures the transformer value on one side but is a lot lower on the other side, that's the cruddy connection.

resistance / continuity
-------------------------

if your meter is measuring resistance / continuity, the game power needs to be off.  Resistance is the better choice since a closed connection like a switch should measure almost zero ohms.  If you had a probe on wire 30 and other on 91-2, no matter which path you walk between those two points, you'd go thru at least 1 lamp + another lamp or transformer winding.  You'd measure a few ohms at least ... probably 10's of ohms.  When you see that, you know the switch is open and you're measuring thru some path going thru loads ... or if the switch is supposed to be closed, it's not or is cruddy.

continuity mode is a bigger issue.  It's up to the meter to decide how much resistance is needed to consider the circuit open.  That depends on the meter, how much voltage it uses in continuity / buzzer mode, etc.  When using a buzzer, you must make sure the circuit is isolated so there is no path thru loads. 

in this case, you could ensure the replay key switch and #1 odds motor switch are both open, remove the insert coin, winner paid and insert coin lamps, and/or open other switches to break the path ... then you wouldn't get a buzz between 30 and 91-2 when the switch is open.

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Thank you for explaining. I got the circuit breaker today and soldered it properly to 50v fuse and its working fine. So the status right now is this. As soon as I start the machine now the 50v fuse blows. If I pull out the hopper the fuse does not blow. I then like you suggested isolated all the contacts on payout counter and removed the paper one contact at a time. And the the contact that blows the fuse is the first one from the bottom, the 2 payout scheme. If I put a paper under the first contact like on the picture the machine does not blow the fuse. So the problem is there and from the 2 there goes a yellow and red cable.

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Yellow/red is used in various places.
Best I can recall check these locations.

Coin lockout coil.
Left side of reels. B and C switches.
Handle release.
Also in the top box odds unit. It resets on first coin.
As does the coin in relay/switch stack, resets.

Check for burn marks, wires touching, loose hardware.
Try this, reset the breaker, then operate the machine as usual in a dark area/room.
Watch for blue flash/sparks.

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Thank you for explaining. I got the circuit breaker today and soldered it properly to 50v fuse and its working fine. So the status right now is this. As soon as I start the machine now the 50v fuse blows. If I pull out the hopper the fuse does not blow. I then like you suggested isolated all the contacts on payout counter and removed the paper one contact at a time. And the the contact that blows the fuse is the first one from the bottom, the 2 payout scheme. If I put a paper under the first contact like on the picture the machine does not blow the fuse. So the problem is there and from the 2 there goes a yellow and red cable.

the problem is probably not where the wire on the 2 trace is going ... that's wire 31-6 and it's coming from the reels.

if you pull the reel mech and take the paper out from under the wiper, what happens.  You should be able to set the reels so it's not a cherry win and wire 31-6 shouldn't be powered.

the wiper fingers attach to wire 93 and go to the payout relay coils.  There's a payout relay under the hopper, and another one in the top compartment.   Did you verify the payout relay coil on the hopper is ok?

tmi
----

all the wires on the payout counter disc except 93 and 98 are coming from the reel wiper boards.  The idea is when you have a winner, the appropriate trace on the payout counter is connected to wire 90 - which in turn is eventually connected to transformer wire 30.  All the wiper fingers are tied together and feed out onto wire 93 to the payout relays.  As coins are ejected or credits added, the payout counter wipers step up/around.  When the wiper steps off the end of the active trace, the payout is over.

your 2 trace has a lot of burning on the end.  Some arcing is normal, but excessive burning is can be a coil issue, failed resistors, or just accumulated deterioration.  When the trace end burns off enough that the last step is flaky, more arcing happens.

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This is the machine that one of the coils was replaced?
Might want to revisit the area surrounding the new coil.
The slightest bit of solder in the wrong place can cause problems.

 

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