New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Lee Pfeifer on January 02, 2020, 12:58:08 PM
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Everything pays right except the third row for the third coin multiplier.
I’ve worked for hours and hours and hours and I’m stumped, please help
https://youtu.be/3_UJbVO1dqU (https://youtu.be/3_UJbVO1dqU)
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1090 payout problems part 2
https://youtu.be/93e5v3FUf2U (https://youtu.be/93e5v3FUf2U)
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Have you removed the top payout feature glass to expose the other group of relays a odds units? There should be a step up unit that might need to be cleaned..
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That’s what I think too , I’ll go clean it right now .
Thank you for the quick response.
I’ll go clean it and report back
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I cleaned the stepper unit real good , it’s still over paying on the third coin multiplier, first coin pays perfect and second coin pays perfect add the third coin and it over pays .
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Can you post some pictures of your top box setup. Would like to see what’s all in your game.
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Here the upper unit
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I cleaned the stepper unit real good , it’s still over paying on the third coin multiplier, first coin pays perfect and second coin pays perfect add the third coin and it over pays .
your main problem is most likely the switch on the X3 unit. It's in the top compartment on the left side. See this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfZ0MGp7XM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIfZ0MGp7XM)
at around 4:00 the video is showing the units and he's describing them.
look for a switch with yellow/brown and red/green wires on it operated by the X3 unit. Make sure that switch is clean and adjusted.
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Ok I never knew how those reels worked , now I sorta get it the one on the right counts payouts for coin one and coin two and it’s accurate , the reel on the left handles the third coin but it doesn’t know how to count ( yet ) .
Also on my set up there are no switches on the back of those two number reels , I’ve cleaned it I’ve cleaned the contacts , I have no idea why it’s overpaying .
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New discovery! Please watch this video and help me figure this out
https://youtu.be/r_8BmIxp8-U (https://youtu.be/r_8BmIxp8-U)
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Do those X Units move/advance? Try pushing the plunger to see if they turn. There are some very small contacts on a wiper board. The wiper board could be dirty or have a contact that not making a good connection. Your in the right area now. You might just have to remove and disassemble them to clean and inspect everything. You have a couple small plastic latches and spring and a couple small e-clips holding everything together.
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They do advance, the third coin multiplier wheel will occasionally pay correctly on a single cherry if the wheel starts off in a certain spot like I explained in the video above , I cleaned the contacts and the wiper board as best I could with q-tips , alcohol and I cleaned the contacts themselves with a narrow piece of cardboard that I cut from the back of a legal pad , I was hoping that that cleaning would show some improvement, but no such luck .
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Where do those wheels get their signal from ??? I’m lost ......
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1090 payout problems part four
I’ve been working on this for two days , steadily observing , pulling the handle and counting coins .
https://youtu.be/cZNV-tnhlKc (https://youtu.be/cZNV-tnhlKc)
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In the picture you can see where I’ve written to show how much it’s paying over , it’s real consistent.
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Lee, is it possible one of the teeth on the wheel is broken. Did you check?
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Not that I see
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that is a pretty standard bally pinball score reel mechanism. Look on youtube for "bally score reels" and pick a video that shows how to take one apart.
notice your X2 unit has numbers on the plastic wheel ... that's because it literally IS a standard pinball score reel - it has numbers 0-9, so ten steps and you are back to the same number.
your X3 unit wheel does not have numbers because there's two more teeth on the ratcheting mechanism ... 12 steps and you are back to the same place. There's no pinball machine that needed to use a 12 position reel, so they didn't have a warehouse full of those pieces with numbers already printed on them.
you really need to disassemble the X3 unit so you can clean off the printed circuit board and the wiper fingers. Use a non-abrasive scrub pad and alcohol. It's possible the trace has a burn-thru ... if so take a picture of the board so the trace pattern and part number is visible
what may not be obvious from the videos is how the reel is mounted into the game. It's probably easiest to pull the entire top unit out of the machine, then you're be able to see how the unit frame is clipped onto a mounting bracket and you release it by pushing down a lever arm near the coil - assuming they mounted it the same way as the pinball machines do.
more tmi below
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what's happening with the X3 unit:
- every coin ejected steps the wheel around
- at every third step the unit wipers on the printed circuit traces connect the circuit to the payout counter, so that steps also.
so three coins out = three steps of X3 unit = 1 step of payout counter to create a 3x payout multiplication.
the X2 unit works the same way but connects the payout counter every two steps ... hence a standard pinball score reel works because it has an even number of steps.
in your case, the connection to the payout counter is not working at one or more of the four places it's supposed to. At that position the three coins ejected don't step the payout counter and you'll get an overpay because those three coins effectively weren't counted. How much of an overpay depends on how many times the X3 unit goes around and what position it started at.
the key thing is the overpay will be a multiple of 3 assuming the X3 unit starts at a normal position. If for some reason the X3 unit starts at one of the eight "not normal" positions, your total pay will not be a multiple of 3 because the payout counter will step 1 or 2 coins too soon the first time.
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Thank you , I will study tonight on how to dissemble , and I will take it completely apart in the morning, and take some pics , thank you WolfTalk!
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I took the X3 reel completely apart , I also cleaned it , there is no change in the way it plays , still overpaying . There are several burn marks .
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Do you have a Scotch-Brite pad? Use that to clean and shine up those boards traces. Even a Super Fine Sand paper like 500 or 600 grit. I have those grits in a wet/dry type. You need to get that all cleaned up. Does the contact piece look burnt? What is the parts number on that trace board? I know I have some but not all of those wiper boards.
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M645-129
I scotch brighted the heck out of it , I straightened out those bad spots as best I could , I’m most definitely in the market for a new one .
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if the trace burned away enough and filled with grease, you can lose the connection. Did you take a picture of the cleaned off plate?
you can check things using an ohmeter:
1] make sure the coin unit is reset
2] remove the hopper unit so you don't have a circuit path thru the payout counter step-up coil to make things harder
3] attach meter to the two wires on the X3 contact plate and step the X3 unit. At every 3 steps you should see almost zero ohms when the wiper is on the 3/6/9/12 traces, the other steps infinite.
at the steps were the wiper should connect, rock the wheel a little back and forth and see if the connection is flaky.
it looks like you are in luck if the problem is burned traces as the trace pattern is symmetrical. You can look at the back side to confirm, but I assume pads 3, 6, 9 and 12 are all connected together and attached to the yellow/brown wire. You can use pads 2, 5, 8 and 11 instead to get new traces for the wiper contact to land on IF there are no other switches mounted on the unit frame that are sensing the position of the wheel.
you can leave the 3,6,9,12 pads connected together, just move the yellow wire to pad 2 and run a new wire connecting 2,5,8 and 11.
if you do take it apart again, video that :-)
the next thing is why the edges of the pads are burning...i.e. why are the wiper contacts not centered on the trace pad. Is the contact worn away on the bottom of the white ratchet piece? The burning itself is kinda normal - the entire current needed to power the payout counter step-up coil is running thru that contact/trace connection ... wear and crud will make it arc, and that vaporizes the trace.
btw, in the post above I screwed up and said the reel goes around in 9 steps. It's 12 as your video clearly showed and I forgot :-( I'll edit the post and this paragraph won't make sense.
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WolfTalk,
I did not take a picture after I cleaned it , I think I want a brand new one , but let me think about what you have written .
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Clean your board well. Make sure the 2 button contacts on your wheel make good contact. Check the jumper on back of board to ensure the 3,6,9 and 12 tabs are all connected. Make sure after assembly the wheel is free to move completely around. Often a wire can get caught on the wheel and stop it from turning.
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Old Reno ,
I wonder why this board has all these burn marks
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I think I want a brand new one , but let me think about what you have written .
new may be harder to find. Used should be easier, but you need a parts game that used a 12 position contact plate. Note that the M.645.129 number is not the bally part number used in the manuals, so if trying to find one, just send someone the picture.
if you were desperate, you could elongate the two holes to allow cocking the contact plate a bit to get the contacts onto good metal. The screw will hold the plate into position.
since you can probably use the [2,5,8,11] or the [1,4,7,10] pad sets to accomplish the 1/3 ratio, your contact plate should last our lifetimes.
the wipers screwed to the bottom of the white plastic ratchet are more of a concern. I don't know if they are the same on the 10 position and 12 position units. If they are (they should be since they just connect one pad to the middle ring), new ones should be available from the pinball parts suppliers or good used parts should be plentiful.
the burn marks are normal wear and tear ... it's just years of people playing max coins. If you want to get geeky, the issue is where the energy that is stored in the magnetic field in the coil goes when the power is removed. A very high voltage spike occurs when the field collapses, and that's happening as the wiper is moving off the edge of the pad. If the wiper is off the pad, the energy has to jump the gap ... you've got a little spark plug, and every spark blasts away a little bit of the metal.
you can minimize this by adjusting the hopper pulse switch with wires 60-1 (solid brown) and 36 (yellow/brown) to open as quickly as possible, then if a spark happens it will be at those switch contacts. It's still very much a race, and over time the trace pads are going to burn.
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WolfTalk,
Do you think KLAR would have a reel ? With all the cleaning, why hasn’t there been any change ? And if I line up that X to the reference mark it pays accurately on a single cherry 🍒, but if I line up the X on the reference mark and try another pay besides cherry it doesn’t pay accurately.
I’m really hoping I don’t have to rewire this thing but I’m willing and I’m grateful that you have the knowledge to assist me if I have to rewire .
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With all the cleaning, why hasn’t there been any change ?
because enough of the trace pad metal is gone that the wiper contact is not touching the remaining metal. It is possible per oldreno that the issue is a bad solder connection. You'd want to ensure that the 3,6,9 and 12 traces are connected together by probing the traces themselves ... not on the wire or solder blob.
And if I line up that X to the reference mark it pays accurately on a single cherry 🍒, but if I line up the X on the reference mark and try another pay besides cherry it doesn’t pay accurately. I’m really hoping I don’t have to rewire this thing but I’m willing and I’m grateful that you have the knowledge to assist me if I have to rewire .
some of the wiper<->pad connections are fine. Certainly the 12 trace is good. The 9 trace looks the most suspect, but hard to see without a pic after cleaning.
you don't need to remove the wiring jumpering the 3,6,9,12 terminals together, just leave it. Add another wire tying 2,5,8,11 together, then move the yellow/brown wire from lug 3 to lug 2 and see what happens.
if you don't want to do any soldering ahead of time and have jumper wires, you can jumper 2,5,8,11 together but you'll still need to clip off the yellow/brown wire and jumper it to one of the 2,5,8,11 spots.
keep in mind the first time you test the pay may be wrong....it depends where the wiper is positioned. If you do use 2,5,8,11, step the unit so the wiper is on 1,4,7 or 10 and the pay should be right.
is it clear what the unit is doing and how the payout is getting multiplied? I realized I ramble on and confuse people, so if something doesn't make sense, just ask again and I'll confuse you a different way, then someone else will clarify it :-)
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Alan at KLAR might be very helpful. He has a wide selection of parts. Give him a call and see what he says.
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I was asked for a video dissembling the X3 reel so here it is , plus I’ve decided to clean , debur , sandpaper the wiper board again , stay tuned !!!
Here’s the disassembly video [size=78%]https://youtu.be/8KyvXk4Kd-I (https://youtu.be/8KyvXk4Kd-I)[/size]
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I also got a request for pics after cleaning , here they are in one pic I pointed to a possible break , I’m using magnifying headgear so I have the advantage. Anyways here’s the pics
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Guess what ?????
That fixed it now it’s paying properly, this is the best group in the world , I can’t wait to meet y’all !
I went in there like a banshee , I knocked those nicks off with a screwdriver and I sanded the heck out of that wiper board .
I’ve learned so much over the last couple of days and I owe it all to you guys !
Thank you
LEE
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I've seen worse. It depends on where the contact is sitting every time the unit steps. I'll be in the same relative position on all the pads. If the contact is sitting on a spot where the metal is gone or right on the edge of a burned away area, you've found the problem.
if the contact looks like it's sitting on metal at each step, then you'll want to verify the pad area is connected to the wiring. Do you have an ohmeter or a test light? If not, just reflow the solder connections and if you think where the screwdriver is pointing is cracked, flow solder over the crack to both sides of the trace ... but do not put solder in the areas the wiper sweeps around or try to replace missing metal with solder.
make sure the solder is connecting each wire to its trace. The thru-hole that the wire goes through doesn't make a reliable connection to the trace, so you need solder to join the wire onto the trace surface.
cleaning off the entire trace is cosmetic, all that matters is the pad area where the wiper contact touches. Most people smear a thin film of mineral oil or light grease over the wiper contact area to reduce oxidation and wiper contact wear.
if you have trouble again, don't forget to check the wiper contacts. If they are worn away, only the wiper finger is touching the trace pad and you'll usually get lots of arcing.
personally, I'd still move the wiring to 2,5,8,11 just to get off the burnt pads, but you'll never find out how long it lasts as is if you do that :-)
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WolfTalk,
Sometimes my payout counter , the one with the hundred teeth , every once in a while it doesn’t reset on the first play after a win . Why is that ??
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Sometimes my payout counter , the one with the hundred teeth , every once in a while it doesn’t reset on the first play after a win . Why is that ??
assuming my schem matches your game, there's only two switches in the circuit ... and the plug connections between the reels and hopper.
1] the zero switch on the payout counter with yellow and orange/black wires
2] reel mech B-3 switch with the same orange/black wire and a black/white wire
clean and adjust those switches. I think oldreno said where they are previously ... maybe in a previous topic. I always forget where stuff is.
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Thank you Sir