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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: DavidLee on June 17, 2015, 03:32:17 PM
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Okay, I'm back with some good and bad news. The bad news is, I abandoned the original Bally circuit to the Lock Out Coil and installed a modern circuit of my own. The good news is, I have the lock out coil working as it should. Thanks to my brother who has a better understanding of electronic components and how they work.
Used the insert coin light as the switch and a Solid State Relay to control the Lock Out Coil.
Using all salvaged parts, Diodes to convert the 6 volt AC to 3 volts DC, Capacitor to smooth the cycle and 550 ohm resistor to drain the capacitor.
Lock Out Coil works as expected with no noticeable dimming to the Insert Coin Light.
Thanks to all who helped along the way and a special thanks to Mr. OldReno
Maybe one day I will solve the mystery of the backward working Lock Out Coil,
but it was great learning experience.
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I do not do EM or E canines, but I will ask my husband and see what his input is. Something's stuck, like a relay or other component that I do not know the name of...
Roslyn
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Roslyn,
Thank you for responding to the post.
These machines can be like a good mystery and finding problems keeps our minds active.
But sometimes we need a little outside help and any help would be appreciated.
The coil I'm referring to was missing when I got the machine. I found out why when I replaced it.
Someone prior couldn't find the problem that is apparent now.
They just pulled out the coil and its mechanism for a easy fix,, The machine will still work, but not properly.
I'm overlooking something and it might be very obvious when I find it or maybe not so obvious.
In this particular circuit there are a lot of switches and they all seem to be working except for the one like I described.
The coil should be energized so the first coin can cycle through and d-energize briefly between coins and that is not happening.
Dave
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The coin lockout coil has no need to de-energize between coins. None, there is no purpose for it to do that, and it would require unnecessary circuitry.
The switches in the coin lockout circuit are:
Coin switch, Reel mech A, Reel mech C, Payout relay, Dashpot, Reel mech C3, (coin relay and line unit open at max odds switch -- these two are in parallel), (Jackpot release switch and Jackpot relay switch -- these two also in parallel). These parallel switches allow coin lockout coil to work after max coins, and during a jackpot after customer has been paid cash and it is time for him/her to playoff machine.
Most all machines are wired like this....
You should try pushing back on the handle before inserting the first coin, because MOST OFTEN the problem is the dashpot switch.
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You are correct the coin lockout coil BRIEFLY turns off when the coin in switch is pushed down, but that is not a feature of the machine, it is just an unintended thing. Don't worry about that part of it, just follow out the switches I posted above.
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The coin lockout coin is there to keep a customer from inserting a coin too soon, and to keep them from inserting too many coins. If its doing that, then its working correct. My guess is someone removed it because it was noisy or buzzing when energized.. Easier to remove then to fix the problem.
Gary
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Thanks for the info. Yes the coin lock out works fine during a play cycle, even holds durning a payout.
At the end of the cycle there is an open in the coin lockout circuit. As we know, causing the new game first coin to drop into the tray.
Mr. Oldreno, you mentioned pushing back on the handle and the daspot switch. If I give the handle a slight pull ( as in starting a new game cycle ) the coin lock out coil will energize.
I assumed it was the micro switch making a curcuit as it has the yellow red wire attached.
Please clarify handle direction, but in the meantime I'll check it out.
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I believe that OldReno wants you to make sure that your handle on the machine is fully returned to its upright position.. You have a blade switch contact located on the right side of the reels assembly just behind the air cylinder. Those are the contacts that he is refuring too.
Have you cleaned and greased the piston inside the air cylinder? If not it should be done. The rubber cup seal inside desolves and turns to a very sticky tar. That will prevent your handle from fully returning.
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First off a big apology for a mistake on my part. The coin lock out does not d-energize during a payout.
Sorry for unnecessarily spinning your reels. So need to check this out to see why this is working in reverse.
Hopefully it will solve the problem.
Regarding the handle and the the air cylinder piston cup seal. I replace the cup seal in this machine with a 15/16" brake cylinder cup.
Had to modify the seal by putting a 1/2" hole in the center, it wasn't the cleanest hole , but it works great. The part number on the cup is 3535
made in the USA, but no manufactures name. Will post a photo later.
So now the handle has just a little air cushion during operation. Compared to the machine I just added lubricant in place of the cup seal.
Now there is a noticeable difference between the machines regarding the handle operation.
Eventually I will get another seal to fix the other machine. The gummy seal in this machine was so bad the handle would not return without forcing it.
Well back to it.
Thanks again for all your help!
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If you need to put a 1/2" hole in the seal, you could make a hole punch out of a piece of 1/2" ID pipe. If you have a grinder you just need to grind the pipes outside at an angle till you have a sharp edge at the inside edge. Then center that in the cup seal and hit it with a hammer. It should cut you a round hole. You might even be able to buy a set of cheap punches used to make gaskets or punch hole in leather.
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My first thought was to use a grommet hole punch, but didn't want to buy one to punch 2 holes.
Pipe sounds better, maybe use 1/2" EMT conduit. Will try it when I get to the 1088 air cylinder.
Thanks for the tip.
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For the seal, I buy them in packs of 5 from McMaster-Carr, part number 9691K53. Here's the part:
(https://newlifegames.com/nlg/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ramegoom.com%2Fjohn%2FE2000%2Fseal-cup%2Fseal_9691K53.jpg&hash=72eb741e6f0a81370e5ddc5c502d35a07748414b)
Then with a small pair of flush side cutters, I perform surgery:
(https://newlifegames.com/nlg/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ramegoom.com%2Fjohn%2FE2000%2Fseal-cup%2Fstep-2.jpg&hash=8fd7794b3b6f2b4a9d71145a08b32be7e58bbe7f)
When the center is removed, it'll fit right in to the piston base:
(https://newlifegames.com/nlg/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ramegoom.com%2Fjohn%2FE2000%2Fseal-cup%2Fstep-3.jpg&hash=ab333a17894a5235d6b17cb7467dae4f99390041)
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McMaster-Carr, they have a lot of stuff over a million or some crazy number of items.
Surprised they don't have a seal with the hole already in it.
Still working on the lock out coil situation. The whole circuit seems to be in tact as every switch is working during the cycle.
Except for the open at the end causing the coil to d-energize and diverting the first coin. After the first coin and the odds unit resets it works like normal. The last switch to activate is the C-3 and it opens at the very end of the
cycle. If a press the timing variation actuator in it closes the circuit, but then the circuit is closed until the handle is pulled thus allowing
more than a normal amount of coins into the hopper and not to the coin drop at all.
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I'm confused.
The coin diverter is what directs coins either into the hopper or into the drop. It is operated by either a weight switch on the hopper bowl, or a wiffle ball type thingy.
The Coin Lockout is what allows the machine to accept coins.
Please help clear up the confusion here, are you worried about the diverter or the lockout???
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Concentrating on the coin lock out circuit. Sorry for any confusing information on my part.
Still looking for the reason why the lock out coil doesn't energize to accept the first coin.
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Your taking about the coil located right behind the coin acceptor? The divertor is located under the coin mech.
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Very well could be a intermiitent connection on the molex plugs by the door hinge. Seen it before.
Dave F
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I'll check the plugs again, but been through the machine following the yellow/red wire a couple of times.
The circuit preforms normally through all functions except for energizing the coin lock out coil at the very end of a game cycle.
Thus rejecting coins to start a new game. Just got to keep digging and trace this wire back as I'm definitely missing something.
Thanks everyone for your valuable advise.
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So a couple of questions on your lockout coil.
Does this occur when you only play one coin in the previous game?
When you move the handle (no coins inserted) can you hear the lockout coil click on and click off? You should be able to.
If you gently open the door (when you think the lockout is off) if you push on the little tab on the end of the lockout armature, do you feel any resistance?
Sometimes the adjust tab (on the door, not the armature) is opened up too much, and the armature will open too far for the coil to attract it.
If it is off, thump it on the door side with your fist and see if it works then.
And, again, are you sure your dashpot switch is closed?
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Thanks Mr. OldReno,
I will check the items you mentioned tomorrow. I might of overlook something.
But I know the handle switch works, I can hear it and if I want to play the machine from the outside
I just pull the handle a little, just enought to activate the coin lockout coil and drop in the first coin.
After that it works like it should, two more coins and then the coil d-energizes.
Same subject different idea.
I have a vacant white / black tracer wire I traced from where the door key lock would have been to a terminal block [size=78%]in the back of the machine. Also with this wire is the yellow / red tracer and its part of the coin lock out circuit. Both wires were cut and taped together, but not connected. If I hot wire it, the yellow / red it will activate the coin lock out coil. I was thing, if I could find a live wire just during the period between play cycles, I could make it work. This may be my best shot, as who knows how many transformations this machine has gone through.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Thanks for all your help.[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Dave[/size]
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David pole the real machine out just for kicks for me and take a good picture of the airair solenoid switch that is supposed to deactivate not to be when you're pulling the handle I want to see what wires go to it and how it hooked up and what's going on
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Okay, here are photos of the three reel switches. (Maybe I should give up slot machines. Getting better results in photography.)
Everything seems to be in order, but haven't got another 1090 to compare with.
Could be something in the wrong position, maybe compare if you have a 1090.
Going to try and post a short 30 second video link if I can in the near future.
Also for comparison.
This is still in regards to the coin lock out coil.
Thanks for all the help so far.
Dave
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http://youtu.be/4nW2UECQWqo (http://youtu.be/4nW2UECQWqo)
Above is a video of the coin lock out coil in action in conjunction to the C switch.
The machine is in the ready mode for the first coin all except for the coin lock out.
Please compare it if you have a 1090 in the 1976 range. I have a feeling it will do the exactly the opposite.
Why is the $64.00 ?
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Ok thanks for the pictures and video. Now if you could please take a pictures of the other side of the reels assembly. At the back end of your air cylinder, there should be a switch called the dash pot switch. That switch needs to be closing when the handle is in the up right position.
Gary
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Dash pot photos attached. Everything seems to be in order. Please view and advise as I might be overlooking something.
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Like I said, must be overlooking something. Made the the mistake of assuming that the dash pot was in good working order.
As it appeared to be completely intact.
Reexamined the switch after receiving all of your guys replies to check the dash pot.
Found the Black yellow trace wire contact blade broke off just below the insulator.
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Fixed the dash pot, but no change in the lock out coil situation.
Traced the wires through the reel mechanism, all good to male beauplug.
Will check the female side and beyond first chance.
Thought I had it there for a moment.
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Ok, let's try this another way...here are the times the coin lockout coil should be off:
1. after inserting max coins
2. durning reel kick and spin
3. anytime the handle is pulled
4. during payouts.
5. during jackpots.
If it is on at any of these times, then you have a switch out of adjustment.
Did you every respond to reply #18?
Was this originally a $ machine? You know the lockout works opposite in dollar machines, and it is called a scavenger coil. If you have a conversion, it may have been originally a $ with the scavenger.
Have you tried turning the jackpot reset key before inserting 1st coin?
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Sorry for the late response, been busy with remodeling.
Okay, not sure if this was a $ machine before, but I think it was pieced together at one time.
The coin lock out coil stays energized during all payouts except for the "777". Then it oscillates, givining indication contacts out of adjustment as they work sometimes. Because it's "777" there is a lot of movement causing them to open sometimes. I think this where the problem lies, so I need to investigate and see why.
Hopefully it will be an easy adjustment and it will solve the overall situation.
Also there is no reset key.
Or wires that I can see that would connect to a reset switch if there was one.
Will double check for wires cut and taped.
I have another machine and it does have the reset switch located near the handle hub.
One of the wires is a yellow / red trace connected to it.
Maybe get to next week.
Thanks again for your help.
Dave
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Made a couple of videos in between working on the machine. Not sure how they will post!
http://youtu.be/VU0X0eOSbkY (http://youtu.be/VU0X0eOSbkY)
http://youtu.be/2SNmnrPFhV4 (http://youtu.be/2SNmnrPFhV4)
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well Dave it looks like both videos you posted our private nobody can view them
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Hello John,
I chanced the settings, so hopefully anyone with the link can view the videos.
Let me know if you can or can not see the videos.
Thanks for the Beau Plug, I got some cable from Apex Electronics surplus 70 cents a foot.
Made a 6 foot test cable.
Ran the hopper on the bench to see how the payout relay was working.
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I've getting the same thing.. Private.
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I am still getting it to Gary hey Gary how do I ship this bezal to you I think you sent me your address
remember I don't know how to ship things
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Once again...here are the times the coin lockout coil should be off:
1. after inserting max coins
2. during reel kick and spin
3. anytime the handle is pulled
4. during payouts.
5. during jackpots.
I tried watching your last video, but my connection is sloow.
Some things I did notice...
Your lockout is ON during reel spin. It should not be.
Your lockout is ON during payouts. It should not be.
If the little tab is poking through the hole in the coin acceptor, then the lockout is OFF. it will not take coins then.
I am guessing this was once a dollar machine, and someone converted it to a smaller denom, and did not do a good job at it.
I note that some machines have a coin lockout relay that controls the clo coil itself, but have not worked on (m)any of those.
Here are the typical switches you will find on a non-dollar machine, working backwards from the coin lockout coil itself...
Coin lockout coil starts with 70 wire, which is 50V feed. other side of coin lockout coil should be a 31 wire, which should go to-----
1. coin relay switch (left side reel mech) 31 to 58 wires (NC) which is run in parallel with the open at max odds switch (on your odds disc) also 31 to 58 wire.
2. dashpot switch (behind pump arm) 58 to 51 (NC) Opens to kill lockout during handle pull
3. reel mech C3 (left side reels) 51 to 57 (NC) Opens to kill lockout until reels index.
4. payout relay switch (hopper) (2 way switch) 57 to 60, (NC-opens to kill lockout during pays)
5. reel mech C1 switch (left side reels) 60 to 71, (NC opens during reel kick, closes after last reel indexes)
6. reel mech A switch (left side reels) 71 to 74 (NC)
7. Coin in switch on door 74 to 30 wire.
In a TYPICAL machine, that's the wiring.
If you can trace these out, it may help you. Some wiring colors MAY be different, but at least you know where they should go, and can draw out your own schematic to share with us.... Or not.
What color wire is currently (no pun) wired onto your lockout coil, other than the 70 wire?
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Something else to consider--
The coin lockout coil acts just like the insert coin light.
It should only be on when you are supposed to insert coins.
You cannot insert coins during handle pull, reel spin or pays, OR after max coins until handle is pulled and machine cycles.
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Thanks Mr. Reno,
I agree, this machine is a bit of a mutt. Thanks for taking the time again on laying out the wiring pertaining to the lock out coil.
Yes its working in reverse during a game cycle, it should be d-energized to divert the coins.
I've considered wiring the lock out coil in conjunction with the insert coin light.
Also considered using a C-R relay as possibility of reversing the action of the coil during the time its not working correctly.
I've seen machines with them in the door and they are wired into the lock out circuit.
But haven't paid much attention to them.
The other wire on the coil is the 31 yellow red rings, the wire in the video is different as the original 31 was cut short when the
coil was previously removed due to the problem that now exists.
Will try to draw a wiring schematic pertaining to the lock coil on this machine using your guide line, an old schematic and the ohm meter.
Thanks again
Dave
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Okay, traced all wires, but drawing needs to be refined.
On item number 1. coin relay switch (NC) I assume its when the machine is at ease, ready for the first coin.
The way its set up now the contacts are open before the first coin, then close as the latch is released.
I'll post a couple of photos as to get a better idea of what is going on.
One photo posted, but not the other. Will try again in the AM when I'm more alert.
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Your switches in the photo look correct, HOWEVER, I cannot see the wire connections clearly, but the switch action looks good. Wires may be reversed. Is there any indication of new soldering on any of them?
BTW, do not wire up your lockout coil to the insert coin light.
The lite runs at 6V, the coil is at 50V.
Same idea, different voltages.
You could install a small encapsulated relay to reverse the signal to lockout coil.
In other words, when coil is on, the lockout goes off. and reverse is true. Just wire the coil onto a NC switch on the relay, and wire the new relay coil to the existing wire that went the the lockout coil itself. This will revers its operation. But keep looking, you will probably find a switch out of adjustment somewhere, perhaps even in the jackpot relay area, around where the odds disc is. I did do a troubleshooting guide on adjusting switches, and it is somewhere in the sticky area if you look.
Anyway, the coin relay switches above look correct.... You can of course ohm them, but I'd look elsewhere...
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Thanks for the info.
Payout relay switch from left to right, yellow wires next is the white black trace 58 and soforth.
Reversing relay sounds like a good idea, will look into it.
Re 6 volts verses 50 volts, would need to use a C-R type relay I imagine.
Hope to have some time in the morning to work on the machine.
Will post any progress.
Thanks again
Dave
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Using these 7 switches, we could, in theory, deduce just what is wrong by checking lockout at varying stages of the full game cycle. BUT, it would take a lot of effort. IOW, we can fix it without touching it by setting up 'conditions' and dealing logically with a schematic. If there is interest we can do this...
Or not.
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Mr. Reno
It would take some doing over the internet to go step by step.
Already appreciate all that you have done and its been a big help.
Like I said I traced from the Lockout Coil back and found the open on the coin relay switch.
This morning I hooked up a remote so I could short the contacts related to the coin lockout via wire 31.
Lockout worked like it should IF you just play TWO coins. The 3rd coin OPENS the circuit at the ODDS UNIT, thus the lock out coil looses power. Stands to reason after the 3rd the coin ,but leaves the machine in a non operational mode for the next game because it's not retracting.
Which leads me to believe this circuit is a series of switches in its present state. You mentioned this to be a parallel circuit and I believe it should
be, but haven't checked the book yet.
Compared the coin relay switch on the 1088 concerning these particular set of contacts and they are located in the middle of the stack causing them to be closed. Not like the ones on the 1096 which are the first set as seen in the photo.
Attached drawing from what I traced through out the machine. Pretty sure I followed every lead.
Nothing took me to the DASH POT or a RESET SWITCH.
I'll stay on it at this end, if you come up with something or idea let me know.
Eventually I'll get this right one way or another. Its these little challenges that keeps me going and makes it a fun hobby.
Thanks again for your help.
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coin lockout coil
If you look on page 16 of your free Bally EM Manual, you will see that the top schematic includes some coin lockout coil circuitry.
The very bottom line represents the 50V source (70 wire -- orange).
The top line is the return or common wire (30 yellow)
When a coil can complete a circuit through all its switches back to the 30 wire, then the coil turns on.
Now, let's follow the circuit for the coin lockout coil from the coil itself --
First, there is a circuit through a resistor from 70 to 30, which is not quite enough electrons to turn on the coil, so forget that route. Consider the resister as kind of a heater, that will allow the lockout coil to turn on better and faster when all the proper switches of the rest of the circuit are closed.
The only route left to the 30 wire then is through one of the 3 routes you see
1. the super jackpot relay switch (In our case we will call this the jackpot reset key switch, which you indicated you don't have.) This switch on YOUR schematic should be labeled as normally open (NO), and you only need it to play off jackpots by re=energising the coin lockout coil so the customer can insert a coin to play off JP.
2 Next to that is called the top jp reel reset relay sw on the schematic, but in your case call it the Jackpot Lockup relay #1 switch) this switch in your case should be normally closed (NC) and only opens when there is a jackpot, and you don't want customer to accidentally play the machine until he is attendant paid. The JPLU#1 does that job.
3. On some machines with different circuits to make large pays, there is a 2nd jackpot relay. (e.g. a jackpot of 1000 coins from 3 triple bars is different that one of 3 double bars paying 500 coins...) But don't worry about that right now, these two are generally in series.
You will note that there is more than one way to get to the 30 wire here, either through the reset key switch or through one of the two JP switches. So, this is called a parallel circuit.
After we leave all this we come to another two switches in parallel, the coin relay switch, and the open at max odds switch, or lineodds open at 2/4 step switch (which I have NEVER heard it called. Now the coin relay switch is normally closed, but when you insert first coin the coin relay trips, and that switch opens and stays open until you pull the handle and cycle the machine. Works great for a single coin machine, but you cannot put in a second coin, ever, until you pull handle and re-close that switch. (IF that is the only pathway) So, to be able to play more than just one coin, Bally put in the other switch, or the open at max odds switch. This allows you to insert 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 coins, however the physical white gear on your odds disc is set up. some machines open that switch after 3 coin, some after 5th coin. So you see how they allow for multiple coins to be played.
Now, if the coin relay switch (NC) is broken, and unable to ever close, then you could still play (on a 5 coin machine) 1 coin, or two or three or four coins, and you could do this indefinitely. HOWEVER, if you ever play 5 coins (max coins), then you would never be able to put another coin in (again, this is if the coin relay switch, the other part of the parallel circuit is broken, and the Max odds switch is also open -- there is no path).
All the rest of the switches in the circuit back to the 30 wire are in series.
I hope that gave you something to chew on.
Most all Bally machines use this very same type of circuit to run the lockout coil. The names may vary, the wire colors may or not change, but they are all wired just about identically....
I appreciate your schematic drawing, and if you can in the future remember the method of trying to get from your coil and source, back up to the 30 wire (generally through the coin in switch you will note), then your drawings will make a lot more sense to you.
Good luck, nice work so far.
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Thanks for the reply about the lockout coil circuit, I'll print it out and use it.
Won't have to much time to spend on the machine, have a lot scheduled for the next 5 days.
We are both fully aware of the problem, but let me reiterate again as I might see the situation from another angle.
It's after the handle is pulled just enough to activate the c switch.
The coil becomes energized until the very end of the cycle then it releases. Thus preventing the first coin to register. Simple solution find the cause and reverse the action, at least it sounds good in theory.
Maybe I'll attempt another video and be a little more precise with what's going on and a little less Hollywood production.
Well thanks again for the help.
Have good weekend.
Dave
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What is your insert coin light doing during all this?
Pretty sure this has been a dollar machine mod.
What is the loose 31 wire gong to on your photo of door?
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The insert coin light works as it should. On before the first coin and off as the handle is pulled.
After the 3rd coin sometimes it will go off, but stays on most of the time, until the handle is pulled.
Think I need to adjust a set of contacts on the odds unit for it to go out after the last coin.
Thought about linking the insert coin light to the lock out coil with a 6 volt relay. As to use the 6 volt relay for a switch. But the only problem it would hold the lockout coil after the last coin. So I would have to come up with another circuit to d-energize the lockout coil.
But first I'm going see if I can reverse the action of the lockout coil when needed.
Probably go over the circuit a few more times.
Thanks for the ideas
Dave
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Okay, I'm back with some good and bad news. The bad news is, I abandoned the original Bally circuit to the Lock Out Coil and installed a modern circuit of my own. The good news is, I have the lock out coil working as it should. Thanks to my brother who has a better understanding of electronic components and how they work.
Used the insert coin light as the switch and a Solid State Relay to control the Lock Out Coil.
Using all salvaged parts, Diodes to convert the 6 volt AC to 3 volts DC, Capacitor to smooth the cycle and 550 ohm resistor to drain the capacitor.
Lock Out Coil works as expected with no noticeable dimming to the Insert Coin Light.
Thanks to all who helped along the way and a special thanks to Mr. OldReno
Maybe one day I will solve the mystery of the backward working Lock Out Coil,
but it was great learning experience.
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Well done.
I would have put a 50V relay in line with the lockout, and then used the N .C. switches to power the lockout direct.
But yours looks like it works fine.
Nice.