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Reel Slots Gaming Machines => Other Reel Games => Topic started by: shortrackskater on July 01, 2015, 04:43:25 PM

Title: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 01, 2015, 04:43:25 PM: I lost out on that last Mills but made up for it here. It needs a bit of cleaning as it was sitting in the previous owners garage for years. It's still sideways on my cart and I haven't plugged it in yet. It has the built in coin tray but I'm assuming Mills attached these to a stand since there's holes at the bottom and no notch for the power cord. I'll do some google picture searching now and see but thought I'd share my latest find. I'll post a shot after I clean it up.
I like the ass on this machine!
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: Shaggy on July 01, 2015, 05:15:11 PM: That's awesome. Nice looking machine and it does have a cute little ass! :lol:

Dave
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 01, 2015, 08:47:19 PM: Quote from: Shaggy on July 01, 2015, 05:15:11 PM
That's awesome. Nice looking machine and it does have a cute little ass! :lol:

Dave

:rotfl:
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 01, 2015, 08:54:20 PM: Well I flipped it up and had a good look at it. I sort of bought it sight unseen... just loaded it in.
It's not in quite as nice of shape as I thought. The chrome on the front, surrounding the glass is flaking off and the paint on the glass is "scaled" for lack of a better term. But still all that kind of adds to it's age I guess! I cleaned and it does look a lot better.
NOW for the big problems... no keys! Should I just jam a screwdriver in it, turn and see what happens? I don't think this particular lock is of any value... any thoughts? I can take it to the local locksmith of course but I'd still like to see if there's some simple trick that I'm overlooking.
I plugged it in. It lights up but the nickel just sits there. I can reject it and that's it.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: SolidSilver on July 01, 2015, 11:58:53 PM: Drill, baby, drill: M-heads are recent enough that something like the lock
is not a "collectible" issue.

Or if you want, just ship it up to me in Oregon: I'll let you know
when it 's working :)
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 02, 2015, 09:23:31 AM: Quote from: SolidSilver on July 01, 2015, 11:58:53 PM
Drill, baby, drill: M-heads are recent enough that something like the lock
is not a "collectible" issue.

Or if you want, just ship it up to me in Oregon: I'll let you know
when it 's working :)

NLG member stayouttadabunker used to always make that shipping request! :rotfl:
Ok drilling will commence soon as I see how to...large drill, small drill? I'll read up. I wonder though if I can just take a large standard screwdriver and twist the sucker open?
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: CVslots on July 02, 2015, 09:33:31 AM: Don't try the screwdriver thing, you will bend the slide mech inside and you will regret it...deeply. Start with a small drill bit, right in the center, then graduate up in size on the bit until center of lock is empty/clear. Then you can just stick a screwdriver in and lift up on the lock and release the slide.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 02, 2015, 10:07:34 AM: :thank_you:
This will be fun.
There might be 20 years of nickels in here too!
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: qbert on July 02, 2015, 12:08:07 PM: It's fun until you snap a drill bit in the hole. :banghead:
Good luck
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 04, 2015, 05:26:57 PM: Okay I've drilled successfully. I used a tap last and was able to just wiggle it out.
Someone seemed to think that OIL fixes everything. It's oily everywhere. I opened the lower door and found a hopper. :Scratch-Head:
I had no idea these had a hopper AND the coin tube. The coin mech isn't working. It just sits there on that balance pin thing and the only think it will do is reject.
I found the release and pulled the handle but it seems the reels are gummed up too. I guess I need to learn mechanical slots now! It will cycle slowly but only the first reel "kicks." The others don't get enough "kick" to spin much. It does pay off though, from the coin tube.
did the hopper act as a jackpot and cash box?
Is everyone hung over from last night? :chug:
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 04, 2015, 05:28:47 PM: Lower part...
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: IFFV68 on July 05, 2015, 04:18:36 PM: Those are Fun Machines.
I'm not familiar with the M. series.
I have Two older Mills. One still has the original tag behind the Drill Proof Sides. It is Dated 12-26-35. It's a Blue Castle with the Silent mechanism, $.05. The second one is a Black Cherry, $,25, manufactured around 1945.
Those each have Three Reel Brakes to slow down the reels. You can also adjust the speed of the reels by bending the Blades on the Clock.
I don't know if this will help or not.
You have a great Find. Mills have been around since 1902 or 1910?, Chicago Illinois.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 05, 2015, 06:00:06 PM: Thank you
This Mills was made in the early to mid 60's I believe. I'm still in the "discovery" stage trying to figure out what exactly it is. I'm not quite at the point of adjusting the reels but I'm sure it's similar to the old ones like yours.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 06, 2015, 10:16:12 AM: Looks like I'm answering myself on what this is...
Hey shortrackskater, this is shortrackskater... I found your answer in the archive site on this great place called NLG!
Your machine is a Mills M head high top with hopper, and you were correct in your assumption - the hopper is for the jackpot payouts that are above the quantity that the coin tube handles. It's one of those last Mills machines that really couldn't compete with Bally and their new EM machines that made all the payouts with their higher capacity hoppers.
Here's the link to the Mills info on the old site.
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=22327 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=22327)
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 06, 2015, 10:38:05 AM: :thank_you:
I got it partly working last night. The coin mech was jamming and I replaced it with a newer one. They seemed the same but it didn't align too well. Then I found an adjustment on the original mech after I cleaned the gunk off it. I guess some people think that dumping gluts of oil is the proper fix for everything! :fryingpan:
Later today I'll put the original coin mech back on, after I get a new lock for that weird locking coin head.
Next problem is the payouts from the coin tube are off - the ten coin win pays five, but the two coin pays are correct. Also the "kicker thing" only kicks all three reels if you pull the handle slowly until feel a click, the they spin fine. If you pull the handle normally, only the middle reel spins, and the other two just spin slow or just float.
Any help from the mechanical slot experts would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: drfreeze1739 on July 06, 2015, 10:47:04 AM: I had one of those machines you just got. Very nice machine. I have pics of the inside of it at home on my computer. I will post pics of it if you need some. I might have the manual for it also. Not sure. Mine was from the lucky duck liqueur. I got mine for about 200. Or 250. I sold it last year or the year before that.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 06, 2015, 05:07:20 PM: Thanks Mark. I'd love to have a manual. I saw some pictures of it on the old site. I paid $250 for mine. It's not in too bad of shape although the paint on the glass is "scaled" from age. Still it looks good. I like the jackass on it!!! Hope to get it fully working soon. I think working on this will finally force me to learn more about mechanical machines. I have about 4 old Mills Vest Pockets I'd like to get working. And I think it even help me with my two old Bally EM machines.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: drfreeze1739 on July 06, 2015, 05:42:32 PM: i have EM manuals on pdf format.

if you want one PM me your email address and i can send you the one you need,

just let me know the year you have and i will send you some trouble shooting info and stuff.

i have made a lot of notes when i work on them.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 06, 2015, 07:45:22 PM: :thank_you: :thank_you: Yours looks nice too.

PM sent. I don't see any tags on my machine anywhere! Strange... I don't even see any place where there were tags... not holes, not sticky spots... nothing.
For some reason, the machine is playing properly but pay outs are still half of what they should be for higher amounts.
I got the old coin mech working properly and installed a nice new lock for the "M head" head. That part works perfectly now.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: drfreeze1739 on July 06, 2015, 08:22:05 PM: Emailed you 2 mill manuals..

hope they help.
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 08, 2015, 10:23:16 AM: I'm making progress if anyone's reading! Where are all the old timers who like this stuff?
I removed the assembly below the candle, to access it and tighten it up. It no longer looks like the leaning tower. Removed the mechanism and the little hopper and cleaned all the contacts and connectors. I set up a $2.50 win situation and the hopper worked although it only paid $2.20!
I also noticed the coins coming from the tube were sticky so I played through a bunch of clean nickels and cleaned the gooey ones, but the "wins" that should be 10 coin are only 5. The nickels are coming out clean now, but I'll probably try removing and cleaning out the coin tube and try to figure out why the payouts are wrong.
I cleaned the reels!
Title: Re: Look! A Mills E I found on MBay! I mean...a Mills M on EBay.
Post by: IFFV68 on July 08, 2015, 10:36:41 AM: You may want to take off the coin tube and run a 12 ga. or 20 ga. shotgun swab thru it with some type of solvent.
My older ones are made of Brass.
I'm not familiar with that type of Mills machine.
If it has Coin slot on the bottom which controls the payout they can get gummed up.
The old days they used Gasoline to clean everything. We don't use that anymore, I hope. I use 3 in 1 oil or WD-40 to lube.
That is one Cool looking machine.
The old Mills and Jennies are almost Bullet Proof.
Nice find.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper.
Post by: shortrackskater on July 12, 2015, 11:13:12 AM: I've done some cleaning. The payout fingers were all gummed up. Now all the payouts from the coin tube are correct. :applause:
However, when I set up a win for the higher payouts, the hopper seems to be intermittent to engage. When it does, it correct, or spit out one extra coin. But the problem is that sometimes it just won't come on. I've checked the relays and shot some contact cleaner in the but they still look dark. I know many EM contacts are not supposed to be cleaned since they're rounded but what about relay contacts? Can I use something more abrasive than simply cleaner?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper.
Post by: drfreeze1739 on July 12, 2015, 11:57:18 AM: Thats great that you got that part to work..

i haved used a very light sandpaper on them.. i know some people say not to buy some times you have too because it takes off the copper or brass and you have to readjust everything.

some people will disagree with it.

i have done it very lightly just to take off the black and thats it.

mabey some one will know the right way to do it.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 16, 2015, 11:31:37 AM: I'm finally getting back to this machine ( with the ass on the glass!) - after cleaning, lubing, I have a machine that pays out perfectly from the coin tube. But it has the hopper jackpot feature which was intermittent still. I did some more contact and connector cleaning and the hopper works now but is short by one coin on payout. It's an interesting machine - for example, when you hit the three watermelons, the coin tube immediately releases 20 coins followed by the hopper, which spit out an additional 30. And another cool feature is a hopper coin out counter, which resets each time. Oh... The light ( was burned out) and a buzzer go on and off now during the payout. :applause:
In this case my hopper counter was at 30 but only 29 came out. I peeked inside to see one coin number 30 right on the roller - see picture. Is this a brake issue?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper.
Post by: drfreeze1739 on August 16, 2015, 01:18:34 PM: could be the brake.

could be the counting switch and arm.

could be the knife.

dose it miss count every time?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 17, 2015, 04:14:26 PM: It was short one on each three melon payout but I'll set up a three bar to verify. I'll be back!
UPDATE:
This is frustrating. I pulled out the hopper just to visually inspect it again after there was a jam. Inside is a metal plate at the bottom of the hopper that's spring loaded. I think it's just to keep the coins from jamming of course. The plate was jammed! I cleaned it and made sure it moved in and out properly.
Then I powered on the machine... Now the damn thing is just randomly powering up the hopper and spitting out coins all the time! SHEESH! This is why I hate EM machines... this one is probably the simplest one ever and it still is doing bizarre stuff!
~~I have no idea where to go from here...~~
After I got in bed last night, my tired brain re-engaged. :duh: Something like this happened when my frayed power cord was shorting out so I'll pull the hopper out and inspect all the AC wiring around the back and hopper.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 18, 2015, 06:53:31 PM: ~~Intermittent runaway hopper problem solved:~~ the contacts on the switch for the three melon jackpot had just come close enough to make intermittent contact. I just bend it back to match the other two and that fixed my hopper from just randomly spitting out nickles. Picture shows proper spacing.
Now I'm back to the one coin underpay issue...

Updating to continue this topic... Feb 2016 - STILL had runaway hopper but I think it's the switch. I adjusted the spacing on the lever to the switch. It may have been too high and not registering coin outs. Sorry for my crappy terminology here.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 21, 2015, 04:31:24 PM: Okay...this is odd but the underpay turned into an overpay problem! This happened after I fixed the jackpot switch problem. But I had adjusted the hopper knife just before that. So I went back in and move the knife up just about 1mm and that seemed to do it. Now the hopper spits and counts out 30 coins as it should.
So as of now, all problems are solved. :propeller:
Guess I should set up the other jackpots and see what happens...or maybe I'll just play the thing til they hit!
:reels:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on October 18, 2015, 06:23:58 PM: I THOUGHT this was working properly! I did get a new lock though... works great!
It's paying fine on all the pays from the coin tube. But, for the jackpot pays from the hopper, it only pays from the three watermelon win and not the three bars or three sevens. On those wins, it only pays the first amount from the tube but the hopper doesn't even turn on! This is frustrating... I'm good with the newer stuff but I'm horrible with figuring out EM stuff!
Anyone know where I should look here? The Mills EM is an oddball...
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 19, 2016, 10:11:05 PM: Back to the Mills...

For anyone reading this who isn't familiar with the machine - this particular Mills M head is the version with the "jackpot hopper" which makes the three highest pays using the EM hopper. It DID work when I first got the machine, although it was underpaying and overpaying. For some reason, it got funky!

Now the jackpot hopper started underpaying. After a few more plays and trying to check contacts, switches, relays the machine hopper stopped paying out more than a few coins with the hopper!
I've tried tracing the wiring from the exact points on the three "jackpot" contact switches on the reel mechanism assembly.
All ARE making contact for the appropriate win situations which are the three melons, bars, or sevens.
Those switches are wired to a connector on the back of the mechanism which plugs into a female connector on the back of the slot. That connects (via cable) up to a box on top housing a few relay switches and that box is connected (another cable) to a side box with more relay switches. The latter is then connected to the hopper. I've checked all those connections as well. The problem is: this stuff confuses me! I really need a wiring diagram and, so far, have been unable to find one.
When I manually set up a win situation, it will occasionally spit out two or three coins from the hopper, intermittently. If I pull the mech out and in a little, the hopper kicks on and a few more coins come out with the hopper. Frustrating...
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on February 20, 2016, 12:08:25 AM: It seems you have the hopper mechanism itself worked out, so it at least was reacting to, and paying the correct number of coins, for the triple melons. The triple bars, and triple 7s have not in your experience ever worked at all. And, it sounds like the triple melons payoff may be still be erratic.

I think it is time to look at the systemâ€™s â€œcounting module(s).â€ That would be those two or three sets of relays you mentioned.

While I have never played with a hopperized M-head, as an ~~old~~ experienced EM design engineer before the â€œsolid-stateâ€ world, I can imagine how the Mills man would have set this thing up using only EM relays. Itâ€™s how I would have done it for TJM.

1.   The hopper only pays out in three increments, depending on which jackpot is hit: 30 coins, 80 coins, and 180 coins. Basically, when a hit is made, the hopper is turned on and held on by a latching relay; and the specific jackpot contacts select where the EM counter (counting pulses from the hopperâ€™s coin-out switch) will turn the hopper OFF by deactivating that latching relay, and resetting the counter.

2.   While there are several different EM counter approaches possible, I would have chosen telephone-style stepping switches, wherein a relay coil moves an (input) contact arm around a circular array of (output) contact points. Cheapest in my mind would have been a standard 100-pointer, using a single cheap â€œalternatingâ€ or â€œX2â€ relay to let it go around twice to reach 180.

3.   Each specific jackpot contact would lead to a specific relay that would turn on the counter and connect the counterâ€™s relevant (30, 80, or 100) count output contact to the â€œdeactivateâ€ side of the hopper-ON latching relay. (And of course other relays involved to reset the counter, illuminate messages, pulse payoff bell, etc)

Anyway, can you supply some good detailed interior photos of those â€œrelay boxesâ€ you mentioned? I think thatâ€™s where the Bars and 7s problem is, and perhaps we can figure out from good photos the exact EM scheme that was used.

C'mon Mark: this is FUN :Crazy:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 20, 2016, 07:57:54 PM: Ok the fun has begun... :yes:
I've just spend a good hour and a half fussing with this machine. I did find a fuse near the hopper that was loose... it was intermittently making contact but was likely working in the machine. I replaced it hoping that might have been the problem but nope!
One thing I did do that might help was I traced the wiring from the "three melon" (nice melons!) win switch to the back connector. I removed the mechanism and made contact from pin 1 to pin 7 of the back connector, which activated the hopper. So I know the wiring from the mechanism to that back plug is good. I checked the other "wins" as well to make sure.
With that, here are pictures. First are two shots of the TOP unit, which is where the plug from the back of the mechanism reaches first. The three counters are seen respectively. Lower pictures to follow... once I eat dinner and refill my wine glass!
:love_whiskey:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on February 21, 2016, 12:17:39 PM: Possible confusion in terminology: the three Durant counters in the photo are, I think, count display units, such as for number of coins in, jackpots paid off, etc. We're looking for one or more pulse-counters, which will be a relay coil driving some form of rotary contact mechanism.

Well, actually, I suppose it is possible Mills got Durant to build a special counter version for this purpose, with a repetitive count wheel-with-contacts added internally. Can you show more pictures of them, including the displays and markings? Most intriguing!
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 21, 2016, 12:39:53 PM: Pics coming once I get off work later this afternoon.
Yes those three counters counted the coins out for the hopper jackpot. When the next coin was put in and handle pulled, they reset.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on February 21, 2016, 12:56:27 PM: AHA! :applause: Mills must have had some pull ($$$) with Durant, a most unusual product for them.
Anyway, this is the area that's keeping your other two jackpots from paying off, and may contribute to erratic action on the melons. Fascinating approach, can't wait to see details, and read your description of exactly what transpires.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 21, 2016, 05:33:44 PM: Here's the front of what I showed before, just for the heck of it - so you can see where they are.
The next picture is the LOWER unit, located to the left of the hopper.
Counter pictures coming...
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 21, 2016, 06:02:19 PM: Next...
Shot of back of Durant counter unit. Next shot is side of counter, flipped for easier reading!
Added third shot... my working area right now. Status (which I'm randomly playing now) on the right, Fortune 2 in the middle (singing Billy Magee Magaw now) and Mills on the left.
Finally... below the circuit board that's right of the counters (facing) are two big caps, diodes and resistors.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 21, 2016, 07:19:34 PM: As of now, the hopper won't work when I set up a win with the three melons (or any other jackpot). However when I remove the mechanism and short pins 1 to 7 on the connector (which make contact from the melon win), the hopper does engage and spit out a few coins. But the counters don't budge. :Scratch-Head:
Of course I may be overlooking the other connections made from the plug... so I guess I'm just testing the hopper.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on February 21, 2016, 08:15:35 PM: Unipulsers? In the â€˜60s? Wow, I first saw those in use with the F-15 jet fighter in the â€˜70s. Well, Serial numbers under 1000: probably very early units for Durant. I learn something new (or old) every day.

Well, OK, now we know how the system works. These are 10-step counters; every time one counts past 9 to 0, it pulses the counter to itâ€™s left once. Each counter has an output contact set for each of itâ€™s numbers: Pin F/6 is common, and pins G/7 thru P/15 are for numbers 1 thru 0. (Iâ€™ll never know why Durant numbered their pinouts both alpha and numericâ€¦)

The specific jackpot contacts on the machine will turn on

A.   a latching relay which turns on the hopper motor; the hopperâ€™s coin-output counting switch will pulse the rightmost (lowest integer) counter with each coin.

and

B.   a relay (or relay set) that connects the appropriate counter contact sets to the latching hopper relay, so that when the desired count is reached, it is turned off.

Thus, for your machine, the melon-jackpot switch will in some mannerâ€¦

1.   Activate a latching relay that either directly controls the hopper motor, or which in turn activates another relay that runs the hopper motor.

and

2.   Activate a relay which connects pin 8/H of the middle counter (corresponding to a count of 30) to the latching hopper relay.

3.   It is likely these two relays are in tandem. A latching relay is an ordinary relay in which one of itâ€™s activated contact sets is wired to turn itself on; and the line between that contact and its coil is routed through some other (relay or switch) which interrupts the connection when activated, de-latching the relay.

When you trace the melon circuitry on your machine, you will see how the jackpot hopper activate-and-count system works. This will help you track down the problem with the other two jackpots, because they will be similarâ€¦

A.   The 80-coin count connection to the middle counter will be Pin 13/M.

B.   The180-count connection will involve the same Pin 13/M on the middle counter, plus pin 6/F of the leftmost (highest integer) counter: the system will require that both contacts are activated, corresponding to a count of 180.

The relays latched by the 80- and 180-count jackpot contacts are not doing their thing, either because they arenâ€™t being activated, or something downstream of them is geschnutze (technical termâ€¦ :yes:). It seems likely there is a common cause.

DANG, I wish I could join you in your shop; this is the fun part :sherlock:

(By the way, on reset, do the counters count around to zero, or just instantly snap to zero?)
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 21, 2016, 08:22:20 PM: They snap back!
Ok... got some reading to do but this will get me educated on everything I don't know on this... THANK YOU.
Dinner break now, with wine, possibly lots. I will return soon. :drinking_wine:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on February 21, 2016, 08:43:05 PM: The purpose of dinner is to create a palatable background for the wine. :bottles2:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 22, 2016, 10:22:15 AM: Quote from: SolidSilver on February 21, 2016, 08:43:05 PM
The purpose of dinner is to create a palatable background for the wine. :bottles2:

:agreepost:
And THANK YOU for the in depth explanation on the counters and relays... I will re-read and re-re-read that, and start the tracing process. That makes a lot more sense now for my confused brain! For some reason, I can figure out the newer stuff but when it gets to this I start to fade.
So I appreciate this greatly and will post back soon.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 22, 2016, 09:17:14 PM: Red and green wires (from mechanism switch for three melon win) end up at the far relay on the left (photo) and the green goes to a diode between a terminal. The other end of the diode goes to the center counter, pins 5, 6, 7 (or e,h,f where's the g???) on the center counter.
Does the current get supplied from the counter to the relays? I tested the diode and it appears to be good. I checked the others and got the same reading.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on February 22, 2016, 09:54:12 PM: Let's back up; There are 4 or five wires on the hopper cable: 2 for motor AC, 2 for coin-out switch, and maybe a ground. Yes?

1.At least one of the motor AC wires should go to a contact on one of the two relays in your picture. That will be the relay which actually turns on the hopper. You should be able to press that relay's contact bar into actuated position, causing the hopper motor to turn without actuating the other relay. Yes?

2. At least one of the hopper's count-switch wires should go to a pin on the rightmost (lowest integer) counter. Yes?

Okay what I found so far was, YES one AC wire goes to a relay but it goes to one in the lower relay box. And I may not have made that clear in my earlier posts, since I don't know what the hell I'm doing! Sorry about that. And there are other wires from that lower relay box that appear to lead to the counters but it's not easy to trace them... but I will if it's needed!
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 22, 2016, 10:06:51 PM: What I'll need to do is connect the upper box carefully, while it's laying on the bottom.
Then I can check those things...
Problem: I'm not feeling well tonight dang it. I will be back tomorrow for awhile. Then there's that other thing Wednesday...ick! :hissyfit:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 24, 2016, 04:40:27 PM: I'm back... with a clean bill of health :cool_thumb_up: and other clean "things."
I'll start probing in the slot now... oh bad choice of words! :rotfl:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on February 24, 2016, 05:13:37 PM: Glad everything went well. :applause: :Please_Post_Pictures_2clr: :yes: :rotfl: :lol::24: or not. :cool_thumb_up:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 24, 2016, 05:21:46 PM: Quote from: Shaggy on February 24, 2016, 05:13:37 PM
Glad everything went well. :applause: :Please_Post_Pictures_2clr: :yes: :rotfl: :lol: :24: or not. :cool_thumb_up:
:thank_you:
I COULD!!! They gave me a sheet of "lovely" glossy photos! I'll stick to "not" on that one though. :applause:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 24, 2016, 06:40:16 PM: Quote from: SolidSilver on February 22, 2016, 09:54:12 PM
Let's back up; There are 4 or five wires on the hopper cable: 2 for motor AC, 2 for coin-out switch, and maybe a ground. Yes?

1.At least one of the motor AC wires should go to a contact on one of the two relays in your picture. That will be the relay which actually turns on the hopper. You should be able to press that relay's contact bar into actuated position, causing the hopper motor to turn without actuating the other relay. Yes?

2. At least one of the hopper's count-switch wires should go to a pin on the rightmost (lowest integer) counter. Yes?

I started tracing the AC from the hopper motor as well as from the AC line input. I'm marking the plug pins as I go along. However... I'm suddenly losing my ability to concentrate! I guess they weren't kidding when they said to rest for the day. I'll be back when I'm fully off this stuff! :sleep:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on February 26, 2016, 07:23:15 PM: Okay I've traced the AC wire from the hopper and it does go to a relay but one on the bottom relay box, near the hopper. I may not have made that clear in my previous post! Sorry about that.
And there are other wires from the hopper plug that lead up to the top relay box that has the counters.
There's two relays in the lower box, and one of the AC wires from the hopper motor (red) run to the smaller sealed relay. I did clean the contacts on it earlier in the game but have not actually checked it electrically since I didn't get that far! Hope this is making sense. I'll try to connect all this back and manually trip that relay. Here's a simple block diagram of the relay boxes and hopper. AC input is at the lower relay box. That darn NLG tag is in the way! Joey? Well just click the picture.

UPDATE:
Tripping relay 1 actuates the hopper but it only increments maybe 3 coins out, then it stops. I did this numerous times. One time, the counter advanced. When I pressed relay number 2, it reset.
Intermittently, relay number 4 also actuated the hopper but I could not repeat it (big cap discharging?). And each time I trip relay number 1, there is a small arc or spark from relay number 3, which has the clear top on it.
I have no idea if this helps... I feel as if I need to draw a schematic of all this. I wish SOMEONE had one for this. I didn't realize these were so rare.
Again, CLICK the picture because the NLG tag blocks the top relay box.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 01, 2016, 11:58:10 PM: No doubt, Mark, it isn't easy; but then Sherlock Holmes always found cases more interesting when they were dumbfoundingly complex. Hey, this stuff is FUN! :Crazy:

1. The capacitor(s) is (are) there for one of two reasons: arc suppression to extend the life of relay contacts switching an inductive load; or time delay, to keep a relay activated for a short time after the upstream activating relay has turned off. My guess is that at least one cap is in a timer circuit (with an associated bleed resistor), as you indicate manually tripping one relay always causes the hopper to run for a specific amount of time.

2. Before we trace any more wiring (but be prepared for it...), it's worth while to point out that in old EM equipment like this, the most likely components to crap out from age are capacitors and relay contacts***; and bad capacitors in an arc suppression circuit will burn out relay contacts. Fortunately, all are relatively easy/cheap to fix. Let's start there, as fixed wiring is unlikely to be bad, and there ain't no durn ICs or software :applause: :applause: :applause:

A: Each cap will be marked with a capacitance (usually in mFd) and a voltage; and it will be a specific type. While you can measure the cap's actual performance, it's usually easier to just replace the durn cheap thing; and old wax electrolytics often show it when they have died. Can you provide pics of the various caps in & around the relays? If the markings are not visible, please quote them.

B: That "clear covered" relay implies it is the most stressed of all, and is thus one we should check out first. It probably has a brand name and spec # on it. Can you read/show the markings?
ii: Is the relay a plug-in? Most of that description are in an "octal" socket, and can be pulled out.
iii: are there little screws at the base of the clear cover, by which the cover can be removed? This is common.
The answers to ii and iii will tell us if we can R&R the relay, or easily replace it.

***Note: the other component most likely to crap out from old age is the operator :rotfl:

Put on your deerstalker, Mark; the game's afoot!!! :sherlock:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 04, 2016, 06:38:46 PM: Delays! Sorry - had to deal with mom in ER a few nights ago (just til 2am!) with BP well 200 something over something else... bad... stroke/aneurysm level. That threw things off for the week... but she's better!

Back to the problem at hand...
I started with the smaller board, with the two relays I've names 3 and 4.
As requested, written on the sealed one is R10-E1-X2-V700 24VDC. It unplugs (and it's got 8 pins!) and the cover is removable.
The cap on the board is 500mf. I measured it with my never-used cheap cap tester. The settings are confusing but I get a consistent reading of 548-550mf.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 04, 2016, 11:09:26 PM: OK, that's a Potter & Brumfield (AMF/PB) relay with SilCadOx contacts. It is intended to switch high-arc AC loads (like motors!) from 24 volts DC. It's far more expensive than all those other open relays, especially as they chose to add the cost of the plug-in socket; and the plug-in choice implies expectation of replacement. I'll bet a buck & a doughnut that's the one that actually turns on the hopper motor, the biggest inductive load in your machine.

(Interestingly, SilCadOx contacts require a certain amount of arcing to keep themselves clean..; but "cleaning" with an abrasive slip will usually remove what's left of the plating, resulting in very short contact life afterward. That's one reason they are most commonly found in replaceable, not fixed, relays. Today, price of a new one is about 20 bucks)

We THINK it's working, because the hopper runs on the melon jackpot; but erratically? The problem is probably upstream of this relay, but let's check.
1. With the relay unplugged and cover off, can you clip up your continuity/resistance checker and manually
force the relay with screwdriver or other poker of some sort? Attached is the contact schematic pulled from the manufacturer's spec sheet on this relay. Yours is the 2-Pole, and you want activated continuity between pins 9 & 10, AND between pins 6 & 7.

2. With the relay plugged in, but the cover off, can you SAFELY (remember it is switching 110VAC) force it on? If so, the hopper motor should run. (with the machine plugged in, of course.. :duh: )

As for the capacitor, it looks clean and your measurements show it to be good. Let's leave it for now.

Cool, keep on keepin' on.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 05, 2016, 10:00:33 PM: 1. Pins 9 and 10, 6 and 7 - check!

I'll update this post in a few minutes when I try the power on test :lightningbolt: :lightningbolt:

UPDATE:
Okay I carefully plugged it all in (had to wire tie the relay to keep it from wiggling away) and we have a hopper activation! And it's continuous as well. :applause:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 06, 2016, 12:24:07 AM: Houston, we have a bingo! You have found the hopper-motor relay, and determined it is working.
We can now track backwards from here.

This relay's coil pins are pins 1 & 4. One will be connected to a 24VDC common, or ground; the other will be connected to the contacts of the relay that turns it on. And that one is likely the latcher, activated
(perhaps indirectly) by the 3 jackpots. Can you trace it?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 06, 2016, 06:10:56 PM: The sealed relay pin 1 output goes to the minus side of the big 500mf cap, with the positive side of the cap leading the the other relay (the 400 ohm 24vdc W88X-12).
The minus side of the cap two other wires going out. One connects to the plug that leads up to the top box (with the other relays, counters). One connects another pin on the "open" relay.
Pin 4 of the sealed relay goes to one side of a big (2watt?) 33 ohm resistor. The other side of that resister has two wires: one hooks to another pin of the W88x-12 relay and the other goes the plug that connects to the top box.

I drew a very crude schematic that (I hope) shows what I just wrote. I've never drawn one before!
It's only showing what I traced. There are many other wires including the ones that go to the other plug that connects to the hopper.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 08, 2016, 05:58:37 PM: :bump_2:

It's almost happy hour. :love_whiskey:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 08, 2016, 07:33:42 PM: Quote from: shortrackskater on March 08, 2016, 05:58:37 PM
:bump_2:

It's almost happy hour. :love_whiskey:

Been there done that. :propeller:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 09, 2016, 07:32:45 PM: It's happy hour again!
SolidSilver... SENIOR MEMBER... please respond or I'll keep drinking wine...
Hmmm that may not be so bad! :rotfl:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 09, 2016, 10:56:09 PM: MUCH head scratching :scratch-head_2: cannot find specs on the W88X-12 relay anymore, but one (probably the most common) manufacturer titles it a â€œlatchingâ€ relay. EM latching relays are used either to cut the heat-producing current to the relay coil over long actuation periods, or for logic reasons to permit one signal to actuate it, and another separate signal to de-actuate it.

Since your photo only shows a single coil, if it truly is a latcher it is of the â€œalternatingâ€ type, in which a pulse actuates the relay and mechanically locks it, and the next pulse to the same coil unlocks it. Think of a Push-ON/Push-OFF switch.

1: Please examine the mechanism of the W88X-12 relay: is there any type of mechanical latch built in, that would keep the contacts â€œmadeâ€ with one pulse, and drop them out with the next?

From your diagram, it seems the purpose of this relay is to â€œloadâ€ the capacitor across the sealed relayâ€™s coil; not in a manner to suppress arcing, but so as to keep the sealed relay actuated for a short time after it is switched off. The cap acts like a small local rechargeable battery. I canâ€™t at this point imagine why that would be needed, but so much is unclear yetâ€¦

Itâ€™s not yet clear which side of the two relayâ€™s coils are the â€œswitchedâ€ side, and which the â€œcommon/groundâ€ side. Note that the lower of the two â€œfrom up thereâ€ wires on your drawing goes to both solenoid coils. That implies it is the common/ground line; or, that both solenoids are switched on at the same time by the same â€œupstairsâ€ relay; this seem unlikely... :no:

So, 2: One of the coil pins of the W88X-12 relay is not shown connected. Can you trace it? Does it go to any pin on the sealed relay, or to another wire going â€œupstairs?

I really want to keep the wire-tracing to a minimum, and concentrate on examining specific components: relays, caps, and resistors. But these two questions should (I hate that wordâ€¦ :banghead: ) clarify the relevant logic.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 12, 2016, 05:11:49 PM: 1. I don't see any mechanical latch on that relay. :no:

2. I think the only way to show this is to complete my schematic. The open relay doesn't have pin numbers that I can see. The coil pins are at the very bottom I assume? Also I failed to show the tabs in the back! My fault. :duh: The tabs in the back have wires soldered to them that originate from the front. I think I need to completely redo this.
Hang on... a bit!
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 12, 2016, 09:56:30 PM: OK, Shorty, no worries. Apparently that open relay is not a latcher, and therefore applies the capacitor/resistor circuit to the hopper-drive relay according to "logic." No need at this point to tortuously trace more wiring. It is highly unlikely that anything is wire wrong, and understanding more of the logic may be unnecessary.
The problem(s) you are encountering are much more likely to be a component (capacitor, resistor, diode) that is bad, or a compromised pair of relay contacts, or a relay coil, or a crimped wire connecter. Let's check that stuff first, rather than have you tear your hair out with a conductivity meter. :pull_hair:

1. Are there any other capacitors, resistors, or diodes anywhere between the reel jackpot contacts and the hopper? If so, check 'em out, and describe them.

2. Check and clean every relay contact one-at-at-time while attempting to pay off a jackpot. (You could just clean 'em all up at once, but if that works, it would be nice to know which one was bad) Note that contacts can stick actuated, and never return to de-actuated. Make sure they flip back-and-forth; see #3 below.

3. Check all the relay coils: you can resistance check them, but sometimes the fact that they are in a circuit will give weird readings. They are undoubtedly all 24vdc, so you can tap 24vdc from the power supply and actually actuate them and watch/hear them click.

4. Are there any crimped wire connections involved? If so, re-crimp the bejabbers out of them: loosened wire crimps are a prime source of intermittent problems.

5. If all is groovy, can you pull out those 3 Durant counters and swap them around, to see if one of them is geschnutz?
If that's not practical, you may be able to unplug the wires from a specific output contact and plug it into another: if all suddenly works, the result would be a payoff, but just the wrong number of coins.

6. Have another glass of wine.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 15, 2016, 09:41:01 PM: Cleaning :propeller: Starting with the board with the two relays. Well we know the sealed one works.
(I did some before but I'll repeat. I bought a burnisher thingy)
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 19, 2016, 05:55:51 PM: Delays delays!
Cleaned the two relays on small board. Reconnected everything and forced a three watermelon win.
Nothing from hopper!
Starting on upper board ... again. I say again because I did this before but without the burnisher I got. I just used contact cleaner and ran a piece of clean business card through each contact, I also checked for continuity after. BUT... maybe it's a bad relay?
~~Backtracking to the lower board. There IS a diode. I'll check that out right now...~~
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:14:37 PM: So why does SS call you shorty? Inquiring minds want to know???
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 19, 2016, 06:18:25 PM: Quote from: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:14:37 PM
So why does SS call you shorty? Inquiring minds want to know???

For "SHORT track skater" Sad to say, my former sport! I haven't been on the ice in nearly a year now. :(
But I'm still skating like a maniac on my super fast speed inline skates. :yes:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:31:11 PM: Thank goodness, I thought maybe TMZ had pics on you from Hollywood. :24: :rotfl: :yes:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:33:09 PM: As a P.S. I haven't been on the the ice since my last Rum and Coke. :cool_thumb_up:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 19, 2016, 06:34:38 PM: Quote from: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:31:11 PM
Thank goodness, I thought maybe TMZ had pics on you from Hollywood. :24: :rotfl: :yes:

Hmmm I could sue!!! Get $$$ like Hulk Hogan (https://newlifegames.com/nlg/Smileys/default/money.jpeg) (https://newlifegames.com/nlg/Smileys/default/money.jpeg)
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: rokgpsman on March 19, 2016, 06:34:55 PM: Did you used to skate out on the highway??

Maybe this is what they mean when they sing "Ventura Highway,,, in the Sunshine..."

Looks like it would be important to apply lots of sunscreen.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:35:36 PM: According to reports....... his "shortcomings" told the truth. :talktothehand:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 19, 2016, 06:38:19 PM: Ahhhh! OMG! That's awful...
He does have good form though! :applause:
But I'm not looking at the rest! :no:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 19, 2016, 06:43:59 PM: I think it's time to get back on topic.. I'm sorry. But you're always good for a laugh in the evening. :yes:

Yes! :applause: - "shorty"
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 19, 2016, 07:01:14 PM: 1. Are there any other capacitors, resistors, or diodes anywhere between the reel jackpot contacts and the hopper? If so, check 'em out, and describe them.
Well the contacts on the mechanism connect to the plug in the back, which (I think) makes contact with the top board where the counters are.
Ok take a deep breath. There's 17 diodes on the backside of the upper board (the counter board), along with one diode in the front, four big 33 ohm resistors, and two big caps - one cap looks like the 500mf on the other board. The other one looks larger think (it's in back) . I can't make out the value without removing the relays. LOTS of wires in the way.

2. Check and clean every relay contact one-at-at-time while attempting to pay off a jackpot. (You could just clean 'em all up at once, but if that works, it would be nice to know which one was bad) Note that contacts can stick actuated, and never return to de-actuated. Make sure they flip back-and-forth; see #3 below.
I've done the board on the side as written in my earlier post, before the skating stuff. :)
Cleaning those relays now... Sunday night.

3. Check all the relay coils: you can resistance check them, but sometimes the fact that they are in a circuit will give weird readings. They are undoubtedly all 24vdc, so you can tap 24vdc from the power supply and actually actuate them and watch/hear them click.
This will be difficult for me but I will try... just not sure where to put the 24v on each one. I should have taken more that three electronics classes back in the day...

4. Are there any crimped wire connections involved? If so, re-crimp the bejabbers out of them: loosened wire crimps are a prime source of intermittent problems.
Nope! Checked solder joints too...

5. If all is groovy, can you pull out those 3 Durant counters and swap them around, to see if one of them is geschnutz?
If that's not practical, you may be able to unplug the wires from a specific output contact and plug it into another: if all suddenly works, the result would be a payoff, but just the wrong number of coins.

6. Have another glass of wine.
In progress...
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 19, 2016, 10:54:07 PM: Shaggy, the official reason is the same as your reference to me as SS: Shorty is simply easier on my old fingers than shortrackskater.

The real reason, however, is a Hollywood legend involving a wild Beverly Hills party given by a senior Sony executive, with a pool filled with whipped cream, a Romanian country-western band, four Dobermans in water wings, and a 6-foot 9-inch Hawaiian stripper named Mindy Kmonawannalaya. Mindy, utterly taken by our studly athlete, made a pass at him. Mark, already busy with a Singapore Airlines stewardess, replied.....

Aah, itâ€™s Markâ€™s legend; Iâ€™ll let him tell it. :wave:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 20, 2016, 05:41:33 PM: Quote from: SolidSilver on March 19, 2016, 10:54:07 PM
The real reason, however, is a Hollywood legend involving a wild Beverly Hills party given by a senior Sony executive, with a pool filled with whipped cream, a Romanian country-western band, four Dobermans in water wings, and a 6-foot 9-inch Hawaiian stripper named Mindy Kmonawannalaya. Mindy, utterly taken by our studly athlete, made a pass at him. Mark, already busy with a Singapore Airlines stewardess, replied.....

"Kmonawannalaya...you're a beautiful 'plus size' island women, but you might crush me!"

Ok back to the topic at hand! I've answered some questions Jim - they're above in reply 74 in RED.

I noticed something with one relay on the upper board. When I depress it, the main electromagnetic contact has a noticeable gap in it. I can stick my burnisher right through it but not on the other relay. I don't see any way to adjust it other than bend each of the three contacts. I added a picture but it's not easy to see the gap.
Ideas?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: Shaggy on March 20, 2016, 06:46:23 PM: You guy's are killin' me. I got more information (and imagination ) in the last few responses than anyone ever should. Mindy Kmonawannalaya is the Amazon of the Islands. No wonder he wanted a fly girl. I spent 20+ years in a C/W band and cannot even imagine the Romanian accent. Bood Scood Boogie. I vant....etc. I think I'm going to quit for the night and think or sleep on this. Please get this machine fixed as this is giving me a headache. I've never been to Hawaii, that must be cool!
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 20, 2016, 11:26:13 PM: 17 diodes?? OK, unless there is some weird logic going on that I do not understand, I'd guess they are using diodes for contact arc suppression; which implies those fat caps are for time delay. Not very useful information right now, but something to remember.

That open-frame relay you show with the contact gap: that's just the kind of thing we are looking for. Squinting at the picture, it looks like the lower stationary pad is thinner that the upper one, and the bottom surface of the moving contact is flat or pitted, rather than rounded like the top surface; ie. burned off contacts. Can you verify with your continuity checker that that contact pair does not always connect? (NOTE: it may be weak, causing an intermittent problem such as you are seeing)

Secondly, is the upper pair (relaxed mode) contact used? If not used, you can try bending the armature downward slightly to reduce that gap, as losing the upper contact would make no difference.

For testing, after grinding/burnishing the surfaces, you can try inserting a very thin sheet of metal (copper or aluminum foil) to take up the gap temporarily. BUT, there's a good chance of an unused contact pair on that relay, that you can switch the wires over to. Can you see if.....?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 21, 2016, 08:42:43 PM: I carefully bent the lower tabs down... so the gap would reduce at the armature to coil, and put it all back in. I set up a three melon pay and it DID spit three coins from the hopper... and that was it. The next coin in did reset the counters too.
I still suspect that relay, I think. I thought reducing the gap might work but it's still a larger gap than the other relay. I think I need to apply the 24 volts to see if it at least tries. I need 24v! I'll dig through my box-o-adapters tonight. If it does appear alive, then I can try more tweaking or adding a piece of copper (or a slab of gold from my stash!) and see if that does it. There seems just to be resistance when I press the top - like the whole thing is warped somewhat.
There is one contact used at the "relaxed mode" contacts.

I'm going to call it a night here in the garage and head inside to play with my NEW C Crane "skywave" travel radio that I just paid a small fortune for! :propeller:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 21, 2016, 10:33:11 PM: I think you are on the right track. You should have 24volts in your machine, from the power supply.

Are you a shortwave listener? I used my dad's old Zenith Transoceanic (about 30 pounds!) up through the '70s, then switched to a Hammarlund, which I still use. Listening to current news from the viewpoint of another country is most enlightening! (Until the tubes poop out...)
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 22, 2016, 04:11:32 PM: The problem with using 24 vdc from the machine, is getting it to the relay. The only way to reach the two relays on the top unit is to remove the mechanism, then unscrew the top unit, which mounts flush right above the mechanism. I'd have to jumper it but there's really no working space inside the machine.
I'll find an external source...

I used to listen to a little short wave years ago. Had an awesome BIG Kenwood receiver that mostly sat there. It died when I tried to power it up a few years ago so I just sold it.
I bought this new little one for WHEN (not if) we get the big one. I do like a few AM stations too and it picks up weather radio, aircraft, FM as well as SW. 😀
I still have my 2 meter radio and my general class ham license is current. N6JCQ
I rarely use the radio but it works.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 22, 2016, 09:44:29 PM: Sheesh, I didn't realize how difficult access was in this thing; but then, it had the hopper and jackpot counting mechanism added to an already existing design.

I'm thinking (ooh, dangerous ground, Jim.... :no:) that a 3-coin hopper payout, which should have been 30, implies there is either a short between counters or a contact pair stuck in the actuated position. Look at it this way: the first counter, counting pulses directly from the hopper coin-out switch, goes 0-10, gives the next counter an increment, goes around again, gives another increment, and goes around & increments a third time. When that second counter gets to THREE, it shuts off the hopper motor, probably by de-latching the motor-drive relay (or the relay that operates it).

But if every hopper coin-out pulse is going to the second (middle) counter, it would delatch at 3, not 30. Make sense?

Let me scratch my head and think up a simple way or two to test it. In the meantime, I would think that disco the hopper coin-out switch would result in a runaway payoff IF the counters are actually counting.

CHEESE, I wish I could fly down and join you in that garage: this one's a real brain-bender, for which read: FUN :Crazy:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on March 28, 2016, 10:20:51 PM: Hoboy, it's hard not to hit the ol' vino on this one!

Unipulser counter pins are numbered 1-17, but letters A-U: G, I, O, and Q are skipped! :Crazy:

Counter activating coil pins are A-1 and U-17. Iâ€™m assuming A-1 is common, as in your photo all the counters have their first pins on a brown wire. Therefore U-17 should be the â€œsignalâ€ pin from somewhere else, which causes the counter to â€œcount 1â€

Therefore, there should [Dang, I hate that word :banghead:] be a connection between one side of the hopper coin-out switch and Pin U-17 of the first (lowest denominator) counter. This would be the counter on your left when looking at the 3 counters from behind. This would make that first counter index up one with each coin spat into the output tray.

There should also be a connection between the first counterâ€™s Pin S-15 (10-count) and the middle counterâ€™s Pin U-17: this would cause the middle counter to count up 1 with every ten counts from the first counter.

Finally, the middle counterâ€™s Pin J-8 (count of 30: 3 counts of 10 from the first counter) should connect to a relay that is latched by the melon jackpot switch; and through it to de-latch the hopper motor relay (that covered one you discovered)

Therefore (said the professor... :Professor: ) if you unplug the wire from the middle counter's Pin J-8, and set up a 3-melon payoff, the result should be a nonstop hopper run, as the counter will be unable to turn off the hopper motor when it's 30-count is reached. If this occurs, the problem is within the counters themselves, or a relay or two in immediate conjunction.

If something else occurs, or doesn't occur, let me know; right now my head hurts...
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on March 29, 2016, 03:47:57 PM: Okay I'm still checking relays...
I again removed the top box (I think I'm going to wear out the crappy fiberboard holes soon!) and for whatever it's worth, checked the two relays there with a 13v power source. It won't fully close the relays but they energize and stay shut when I closed them manually. They both released when I cut the power.
I think I need to go back to that one relay on the side board, the one next to the sealed relay. If that checks out good, then I'll start with your last "to do" list. :applause:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on April 02, 2016, 08:15:34 PM: Ok I just finished testing the other two relays in the smaller lower board. I'm 99.9% sure they all work. Even though I used half the needed voltage, they energized and stayed shut, then released.
Unfortunately, when I lined up a three melon win, it didn't. Well it spit ONE from the hopper (right after the usual mechanical payout).

I'll now look back at your posts, Mr. SolidSolver and see if I can silve this problem eventually... err SolidSilver and see if I can SOLVE... :Tongue_Out:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on April 02, 2016, 10:13:49 PM: ONE coin out of hopper, not 3? Aw, cheese: it's erratic, just what we need.
OK, the easiest first step here is to disco either of the two wires on the hopper coin-out switch, then set up a 3-melon win. If you have a runaway hopper, the problem is in the counting circuit(s). If the hopper continues to randomly spit out one or a few coins, the problem is in the hopper-drive-relay latching circuit. That is, whatever is turning on that covered relay is weak, or has burned points, or for some other reason is cutting out before it's told to.

Hmmm, interesting... :Eating_Popcorn:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on April 03, 2016, 06:39:30 PM: Okay I taped both contacts to the coin-out switch. Now with a three melon set up, I only get coins from the tube (the usual) and nothing from the hopper.

Update:
Well now I removed the tape and it's doing the same: no coins from hopper at all... not even ONE.
:Scratch-Head: :Scratch-Head:

Should I go back to reply #83?
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on April 03, 2016, 11:26:32 PM: Nope, itâ€™s not the counter circuit(s). The relay you have identified as the hopper-motor-drive is simply closing itâ€™s contacts erratically: sometimes long enough for a coin or three, sometimes not at all. Four things could cause this: you may have already verified some of them.

1.   Weak/erratic 24vdc power supply; or power feed to the various relays or the boards they sit on. Note that multiple 24vdc relays are likely operating at the same time. Reading 24vdc from the PS with nothing activated does not mean it doesnâ€™t drop down or out when supplying current.

2.   Of the two relay coil leads (pins), one should be going to 24vdc ground (probably the same as one side of the hopper coin-out switch): that connection may be weak or intermittent.

3.   The relay coil itself may be weak or dead; try your 13vdc trick on it.

4.   The OTHER pin of the relay coil is what receives the ON signal. That signal is weak/erratic. Having verified all is cool with #1 thru 3 above, trace that line back to its origin. It will probably be a contact set on another relay.

Hopping around a bit, but getting there: coolness prevails, Dude :cool_thumb_up:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on April 05, 2016, 07:52:18 PM: I did test both relays closest to the hopper.
I removed that lower board again and set up the three melons.
For whatever reason it's now spitting out 10 coins. After it stopped I manually engaged the covered (uncovered right now) relay and the hopper just came on. But now it's NOT counting coins at all.
??? ?
I'm not good with this stuff. :banghead:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: SolidSilver on April 05, 2016, 10:49:16 PM: OK, I'm confused. I understand this is difficult and frustrating, but I really need to understand specifics. It's a little bit like directing surgery over the 'phone.

1. "It's now spitting out 10 coins." Did it output 10 coins the one time you tried it, or is it now consistently putting out exactly 10 coins, no more/no less, over multiple runs? The difference is huge in terms of where to go now.

2. "Now it's not counting coins at all."
A. Are the coin-out switch wires still disconnected? If so, well naturally.....
B. I assume you mean the Durant counters are not showing coins going out when you manually drive the hopper..

3. You "tested" those relays. Does that include applying your 13vdc power supply to the hopper-drive relay's coil? Were you able to do so while there was power to the machine, to observe the hopper leaping into action (or not) ?

4. Did you spill any of that wine on the board(s)? Some wines are electrically conductive..... :burningresistor:
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on April 11, 2016, 09:49:28 PM: 1. Sorry I'm giving you inconsistent information here... this slot is confused, like me. :propeller:
Tonight I lined up the three melon win and, each time I do this the hopper spits out 6 coins only. For some reason, the 10 coin spit out stopped! This happened 4 times in a row.
When it finished the 6 coin pay, I can engage the small covered relay and the hopper will run indefinitely. I guess that's just verifying that that particular relay is working and that, for some reason, it's not being told to keep going.
2. During the latter 6 coin payout, the counter IS intermittent. Sometimes, it registers 3, sometimes 0.
~~The coin counter switches are still connected.~~
The Durant counters are still connected. (That's what I was supposed to say) I didn't get to that yet.
I tried to pull one and it wouldn't budge. Then I got side tracked with my stupid neck issue and forgot about this step! Oops.
3. I think this is answered in question 1, I hope. I don't know which other relay to test... I need to backtrack this long thread to see what you told me before. And, no I didn't add power while the machine was powered. I'm tying to buy a variable voltage power supply on ebay now, which will help me test stuff.
4. No wine spilled yet!
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on April 19, 2016, 06:41:39 PM: The durant counters are impossible to remove wires from. They seem to be soldered to leads that stick out. I see no way to release them whatsoever.
I need a "MILLS EM FOR DUMMIES" book. I wish Mills made a SCHEMATIC for this machine, but it seems they never did. I've looked everywhere and found nothing.
I'm just not understanding how the counter function works with the payout. Does the payout switch activate the counter? What engages timing for the hopper/relays to make the proper payout?
I put the whole thing back together, set up the three melon pay and now NOTHING comes out of the hopper. Last time it was back at 3!
I DO know that the counter reset voltage is getting there since, no matter what amount the hopper pays when it does, the counters do reset.

When I manually drive the hopper, the counters do not count the payout.

It's nearly impossible to apply power to the upper relays since I can't connect it and operate the slot machine with the upper part out, unless I make up some long jumper cables.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 01, 2016, 05:29:41 PM: A HUGE THANK YOU TO SOLIDSILVER JIM for all the help on this.
I finally decided to move the machine on to someone more capable than me! My EM troubleshooting skills just aren't up to par and I obviously went wrong in numerous places, which lead to checking other areas. The good thing is I did learn a lot thanks to Jim, who I wish would return eventually.

I'm in contact with the new owner. The machine is WORKING now and is sitting right next to its almost twin!
Either myself or Ceasar will post again with what the problem was.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 08, 2016, 04:56:50 PM: :applause: :applause: IT'S WORKING :applause: :applause:

The following is a detailed report from Ceasar, the new owner of my Mills M head. I just cut and pasted the texts in order of when I got them, as he figured it out.
Hopefully, he'll chime in soon to introduce himself. Please welcome him to NLG.

From Ceasar:
The issue is in the hopper, I swapped in my 25cent hopper from other machine and it pays correctly. Now to find the glitch.

Got the hopper working. The counting switch was the issue. It should be normally open, but a wire was transposed to normally closed so the top counters were confused. Had to check my 25 cent hopper circuit to figure it out as it worked in the 5 cent machine.
I took pics of what needs to be looked at on these hoppers and the two tools that one should have to check em:
Top one is a battery powered fuse tester. With no coins in hopper, the two prongs should show closed circuit, which will power hopper up to get coins up the disk once a JP is hit. The other is a lamp cord with crimped on connectors. You push em on the pins that are oriented like a wall plug and then plug the plug into an outlet. That'll power up the hopper. If it runs, the motor and wiring is good.
On the backside of hopper, these 2 bolts allow for adjustment of the roller that triggers the micro switch:
The switch must be wired so to be in the "normally closed" position with NO coin under the roller. This is correct wiring position (looking up from bottom of hopper):
Lastly, when the counters up top hit the right number for payout number, it will stop the hopper with a coin in this position under roller:
The counters kill the power to the hopper and the micro switch is in the open position here, so that when the next hopper payout comes up, the upper circuits close and complete the circuit to the hopper motor starting the payout and when the coin in pic moves past roller, the micro switch closes and sends a charge to the counters that a coin has been paid out.
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: AutomaticCoinMachine on August 15, 2016, 02:10:06 PM: Just want to thank shortrackskater for all the help in getting me signed up here on NLG (and to get some of the stuff stuck in my head out in the open) and for the work in moderating and getting my pictures re-oriented. This thread should be of some use to others who may happen across one of these machines. It's all a trek of discovery!

-Caesar
Title: Re: Mills M Head with jackpot hopper: Payout issues and general information.
Post by: shortrackskater on August 29, 2016, 08:31:52 AM: :thank_you:

Hope to see you here more often Ceasar! We definitely need someone with your expertise with these old machines!
I'm happy the slot is working and paying.

New Life Games LLC

**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Other Reel Games => Topic started by: shortrackskater on July 01, 2015, 04:43:25 PM

Reel Slots Gaming Machines => Other Reel Games => Topic started by: shortrackskater on July 01, 2015, 04:43:25 PM