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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Universal Reel/Video Games => Topic started by: rjpohl on February 12, 2015, 05:39:06 AM
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The hopper spins but the kicker never pulls in so no coins are dispensed. I have tested the solenoid by connecting it to a 110v test plug and it pulled in as it should. The kicker works freely by hand. What activated the solenoild?
Thanks
Bob
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Bob, something looks strange in the picture. the grey wire which comes in on pin 8 has the 100vac, it goes to one side of the two relays, one relay when told will put the 110 to one side of the motor,(grey wire) the other relay puts 110 to one side of the solenoid(blue wire.) both the motor and solenoid have a common (neutral side of the 110 ) wire (white wire).hopper control wire is brown, solenoid control wire is yellow. the pink wire is 5vdc to both opto inputs of the relays. according to the description, both turn on and off at the same time. your wiring looks like the two wires from the solenoid are going to the same place, one should be sharing the white wire with the motor, the other should be attached to the blue wire coming from the solenoid relay.
I would do the following, unhook the two wires from the solenoid, pull in the kicker and secure it so the hopper could count out, press the test button four times to get in the hopper test mode , the hopper should count out 10 or 11 or 12 coins ( because the kicker is not hooked up) if it does this then the hopper is working as it should. now all you have to do is straighten out the wiring and hopefully it will solve the problem. worst case , you could hook the motor and solenoid in parallel, should work.
Hope This Helps
Jim
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Jim,
I cut those wires and connedted 110 direct to solenoid to test it. I then reconnected wires and taped each set separetly. The 2 sets are not touching as the picture might look like.
Bob
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Just for kicks I tie -wraped the kicker open, I then played machine until it hit a payout. It paid out (more than it should because kicker couldn't open) and went into a tilt. My guess it's the hopper board at fault but I don't have a good one to try. Any suggestions or does anyone have a board to sell?
thanks
Bob
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Bob, I see you did as I suggested, the hopper motor signal and the kicker solenoid signal both come from the main board, they happen at the same time, so the kicker and the motor turn on at the same time. just hook the two blue wires from the kicker to the two wires from the motor. there should be a grey wire and a white wire going to the motor, hook one blue wire from the kicker solenoid to the white wire, and hook the other blue wire from the kicker solenoid to the grey wire, now when the motor turns on the kicker should pull in, the hopper will count the number of coins, the board will turn off the motor and kicker at the same time so any drift coins should be "kicked" back into the hopper.
your machine should operate just fine.
with the door open, on the panel where the meters are, there is two buttons, one green and one ? and there is a yellow one on the front of the cabinet. the green one will either put you in the test mode or put a credit on the machine, if it puts a credit on the machine, then the other one will put you in the test mode, in the test mode, just like a bally machine, pushing it four times will turn on the hopper, it will count ten coins and stop. the yellow push button will reset a tilt .
Hope this helps
Jim
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Jim, I wired the kicker to the motor leads as you suggested. The kicker does now pull in and the coins are dispensed. Problem is that it over pays almost every time by several coins. When I run the hopper test I get anywhere from 10 to 20 coins. I feel like the coin out switch is working properly because the amount of coins on the display match what hopper pays out. This hopper is very fast,not sure if maybe it's a brake isssue or not.
thanks
Bob
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Bob, make sure the MPU has a sub-board at location A1 and that Dip Switch #6 is in the OFF position on that sub-board. That must be set OFF for standard hoppers.
If you change Dip positions a RAM clear must be performed after any change.
Can't understand how the hopper would run too fast unless somehow the voltage has been increased?
Jim
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Uniman, it did have the sub board and dip switch 6 is off. I said hopper was running fast but maybe that is normal for Universal slots. I checked voltage eo motor an it is 110v.
this machine had been working for several years with no issues, I found a dime wedged under the knife, I removed the dime, reset knife.
Thanks
Bob
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Only other thing I could suggest is lubricate the kicker mechanism. They can get stiff.
The kicker should energize when hopper starts and should de-energize when hopper power is off. The hopper may spin down after power down but the kicker being de-energized should deflect any extra coins back into hopper. As soon as proper number coins are dispensed the kicker should immediately de-energize and snap back to deflect any more coins.
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The customer found another hopper on the internet and ordered it. I tried it out tonight and it has the same problem, the kicker does not pull in to allow coins to tray. Can the problem be the MPU? I feel kind of bad for the guy because he paid $100 plus $30 shipping so I need to do all I can to get it working.
thanks
Bob
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There might be a transistor on the board that is tied to the solenoid with the issue. I would check for that. Not really a Universal person so this is only an idea I have developed from solid state pins I have workd on that are controlled by a drive transistor.
dave F
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I was thinking that hoppers with a brake will not have the coin kicker. The hopper brake came along later as an improvement and eliminated the need for the coin kicker. Is that right?
below is some info about the Universal self-test program for the hopper, the output ports and input ports tests (self-test steps 4-7).
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... This hopper is very fast,not sure if maybe it's a brake isssue or not....
It looks like the hopper dispensing speed does vary and can be quite fast in some cases. They used a high speed hopper in some machines, it is up to 3 times faster than a normal hopper.
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The hopper spins but the kicker never pulls in so no coins are dispensed. I have tested the solenoid by connecting it to a 110v test plug and it pulled in as it should. The kicker works freely by hand. What activated the solenoild?
Thanks
Bob
Here is a Universal slot machine manual, hopefully it will cover the machine you are dealing with.
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Bob, make sure the MPU has a sub-board at location A1 and that Dip Switch #6 is in the OFF position on that sub-board. That must be set OFF for standard hoppers.
If you change Dip positions a RAM clear must be performed after any change.
Can't understand how the hopper would run too fast unless somehow the voltage has been increased?
Jim
Since dipswitch #6 should be OFF with a standard hopper does that mean if the machine had a high speed hopper then dipswitch #6 should be ON ??
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New hopper and same result means most likely mpu board Bob. I thought Jim's idea of wiring solenoid to motor power would work, but after looking at schematics maybe not.
The motor and solenoid have two seperate outputs from the mpu, so there may be a timing issue that prevented both from coming from the same output? Seems like there would be one relay instead of two on the hopper board if this method would work.
Looking at the output schematics, looks like the output to the solenoid comes from capacitor C6 to a Hex inverter chip 9D, in pin 1, out pin 2. Capacitor C6 is found at location G3.
Looks like hopper motor is triggered by C7 and also through Hex inverter 9D thru pins 13 and 12.
I will post a pic of the schematic when my phone charges up, dead right now. Maybe someone with board repair knowledge can chime in with some help. I'm no board repairman myself so right now I'm guessing!
I would try reseating Dip #6 on the daughter board (turn ON and back OFF) and then perform a reset while powering up the machine. If problem still there, mpu board has problem. Maybe replacing C6 might fix problem?
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Bob, it gets a bit more complicated. The capacitors C6 and C7 are part of a timing circuit that uses a dual timer, 3G. Also resistor R10 is involved.
Attached are two schematics. One is output circuit and other is the dual timer (3G). The dual timer is a Texas NE556N.
The 9D in the output is a Texas SN7406N (Hex inverter)
Can any board repair fellas out there give a logical approach to this problem? Hopper motor runs but solenoid will not engage. (two different hoppers used, solenoid tested in first hopper and was ok)
(Bob, I would trade the new hopper for a mpu.)
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Actually the C6 and C7 on the drawing refers to a couple of output control signals, not capacitors. That's just the name Universal called these control signals. Since there are a bunch of output signals they named them with a 2 character codename, like 72, B7, C3, etc. If you look at all of them coming out of the 74LS259 chips they do follow a certain sequence in naming pattern.
All of these output signals on the mpu come from all those 74LS259 ics over on the leftside of the drawing. These logic signals will be either high or low depending on what the cpu needs to do to control something like a solenoid, a light, whatever. The C6 output signal comes from pin 9 of ic 6H and the output signal C7 comes from pin 9 of ic 7H. These output control signals go to the ic at 9D which is an inverter logic gate. So a high level coming in gets changed to a low level and vice-versa. You can see that output C7 connects to ic 9D pin 13 while output C6 connects to ic 9D pin 1. C7 controls the hopper motor, C6 controls the hopper solenoid.
You'd think they could have used just one signal to control both things since in most (or all??) situations when the hopper motor runs you also want the hopper solenoid to move the coin kicker out of the way. And when the hopper motor shuts off you want the coin kicker solenoid to move into position to not let any coins dispense. But maybe sometimes they wanted the cpu to be able to run the hopper motor while keeping the coin kicker in position, like to stir the coins without dispensing any? Or some other reason. Just a guess. Also, in the self-test you can test these 2 output controls individually, so for some reason they wanted to keep these 2 output control signals separate. Maybe the more experienced folks here can think of why the hopper motor might want to run independently of the coin kicker solenoid.
Anyway, it could be that the 7406 chip at mpu location 9D is bad and that's why the hopper solenoid isn't getting controlled. Of course there could be other things causing the hopper solenoid not to work, like a broken or burned open trace or a bad 74LS259 chip at location 6H where the control signal originates.
The other problem of the hopper paying out more coins than it should is puzzling since if the coin kicker moves into position as soon as the hopper motor loses power then no extra coins should be dispensed. But it was noticed that the hopper runs really fast, so if it was one of the high-speed hoppers that Universal used on some machines could the coins be coming out so fast that some extras ones get by before the coin kicker moves into position? The manual said the high-speed hoppers dispense coins 3 times the speed of the standard hopper.
UNIMAN- my copy of the Universal slot manual is a bad photocopy and I can't read it very well. Yours looks a lot more clear so you may want to find the same area's in my attached photos on your drawing to see it more clearly. In fact, if you can post or email your copy to me I could see it better, even the one page we are referencing.
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Thanks for all the help Uniman and rokgpsman!!
Uniman I'd like to take you up on your offer to trade hopper for mpu, I'll send you a PM shortly.
thanks again guys.
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Please let us know how this ends up, I'm curious about the over-payout problem and what is causing it.
Good luck!
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Please let us know how this ends up, I'm curious about the over-payout problem and what is causing it.
Good luck!
Thank you for taking the time and posting the correct logic path. You can see how novice I am in this area! Appreciate the detailed explanation. :yes:
The high speed hopper is red and plastic, and oh, yes, the dip #6 needs to be on for high speed hopper as it uses an optic for counting coins and not a switch like the standard hopper does. Also the high speed hopper has a brake and a reverse. Bob's hopper is a standard hopper as pictured at beginning of thread. No brake. Also, output tests for hopper solenoid and hopper motor are "disabled for type-2 programs". Any machine that has credits is a type-2 program. Only the earliest machines that had no credit meter and all wins payed out had type-1 programs.
I do know that when you power up a Universal the hopper motor bumps like it's a self test. This is the only logical reason I can think of why the two outputs are separate.
CORRECTION: Standard Hopper uses a GREY optic, High Speed hopper uses a small black optic similar to Holey Hoppers used in Ultra Series Uni's.
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I know you're a lot more familiar with these machines than I am, I wanted to help with that C6 & C7 logic signal stuff to keep troubleshooting going in the right direction.
I didn't recognize the hopper photo as being a standard one and was trying to think of why all the extra coins would come out during play and during selftest. I thought if it was a high speed hopper maybe the extra coins were slipping by somehow because of the 3 times faster payout.
There is likely some reason they have the 2 different controls for hopper motor and hopper coin kicker solenoid since it would be simpler to just use one control line for both. This pretty much means that there are times when they want the machine to do one without the other, or they thought they would and designed it in but never implemented it. I thought maybe they stir the coins now and then to prevent jamups in the hopper, like every 50th play or something. To stir they'd want to activate the motor but leave the coin kicker solenoid off so it would prevent coins getting dispensed accidentally. In a case like that they'd need one control line to be on while the other was off. You mentioned that the hopper motor runs for just a second during machine powerup, they'd want the coin kicker to stay in place then to keep any coins from coming out, so as you say that's a good reason right there for having 2 different control lines.
Since the hopper he has is definitely a standard speed hopper then what could cause all the extra coins to come out? If the coin counting switch is working right then the mpu should shutoff the hopper motor and the coin kicker should snap back in place to kick the extra coins back into hopper while the hopper motor spins down. He even tried wiring the coin kicker solenoid to the motor wires to ensure that the coin kicker snaps back when the motor powers down at end of payoff.
From what he said the number of coins dispensed matches what the coins paid meter says, so during selftest why doesn't mpu cut off hopper after 10 coins instead of waiting until 20 coins come out? That's what has me puzzled. If dipswitch #6 was bad and was telling the mpu the hopper was a high speed one (when it really was a standard hopper) and the mpu was therefore expecting to use the optical coin counting switch I wonder if that would cause this problem? Have you tried setting dipswitch #6 to ON with a machine that had a standard hopper to see how it handles coin counting and dispensing? I couldn't find any info about dipswitch #6 in the old manual I have.
If he swaps the mpu and it does fix the problem then it will be interesting to know what was wrong with the mpu.
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Yes, it is puzzling. I have seen hoppers that haven't been used in awhile have the solenoids stick and not return or return slowly. A little wd40 fixes that problem. But a good solenoid(s) not engaging has me looking at the daughter board at location 1A first. This board has eight dips that determine different things. And to make it more complicated, it depends on what System chip # you are using. Most, if not all use dip #6 for hopper ID. But since the hopper runs and it counts coins it does look like daughter board is ok.
Here's another thought, something I've experienced. The Uni MPU plugs into two edge connectors that have an array of wires on the backside. To allow heat to leave the lower area of the machine Universal notched out the two back corners and the same at the top box. Loose little screws that are left in top box or reel area can drop in behind the edge connectors when the machine is moved. I've had a machine where a screw shorted the machine. After that I always removed the mpu rack and examined behind the edge connector for any loose screws when I got a new machine. There's very little exposed contacts back there but it can happen. WORTH A LOOK BOB!
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What would happen on a machine that had a standard hopper but dipsw #6 was in the wrong position (or was bad)? Would the machine dispense the wrong number of coins? With dipsw #6 on then mpu expects the hopper optic switch to count coins but that wouldn't happen with a standard hopper installed.
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What would happen on a machine that had a standard hopper but dipsw #6 was in the wrong position (or was bad)? Would the machine dispense the wrong number of coins? With dipsw #6 on then mpu expects the hopper optic switch to count coins but that wouldn't happen with a standard hopper installed.
Been a long time since I seen this. I believe error 21 comes right up.
What happens is this; at startup the machines System chip poles the location 1A. 1A is actually meant for a 24-pin eprom. But since they want adjustable settings a daughter board with 24 pins sits at this position and has dip switches and chips that mimic an eprom. The System chip looks for a binary 0 or 1 at eight locations (the eight dip switches) and I believe OFF is a 1 and ON is a zero in the program. Funny, because there is a test to display the dip settings and the display has ON as a 1and OFF as a zero. Anyways, the System Chip will see dip #6 as On or OFF and then direct one of two routines into the RAM memory. One for standard hopper and another for high speed hopper. From then on it uses that routine. So if you change type of hopper and change the dip switch it will not work until you perform a reset, aka clear the RAM. This makes the System Chip look again and load the proper routine.
I'm going to bring a machine out of storage this weekend, non currently at the house now, and I'll try setting it ON with a standard hopper and see.
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Thanks for that explanation and for making the dipsw #6 test, looking forward to what you find out. Since Bob said this machine was working ok prior to these problems and they didn't get any error messages when the over-payout happened then a faulty dipswitch may not be the problem.
I assume the ram where the hopper type and other data is stored is in the ram that's battery powered when the machine is turned off. If the battery is disconnected or goes dead and this ram gets corrupted does the machine require a clear procedure and how is the clear procedure done (switch inside the machine, or insert a clear chip in a socket on mpu??) I'll take a look at that manual and see what I can find. :wave:
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.... Also, output tests for hopper solenoid and hopper motor are "disabled for type-2 programs". Any machine that has credits is a type-2
I do know that when you power up a Universal the hopper motor bumps like it's a self test. This is the only logical reason I can think of why the two outputs are separate.
Do the machines that are "Type 2" also do the hopper motor bump on startup or is it only done on the older "Type 1" machines? (since the Type 2 machines have the hopper motor test disabled I was thinking they may not do the motor bump on machine power up).
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here is the schematic for the hopper relay board, both the standard and the hi- speed. Jim
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.... Also, output tests for hopper solenoid and hopper motor are "disabled for type-2 programs". Any machine that has credits is a type-2
I do know that when you power up a Universal the hopper motor bumps like it's a self test. This is the only logical reason I can think of why the two outputs are separate.
Do the machines that are "Type 2" also do the hopper motor bump on startup or is it only done on the older "Type 1" machines? (since the Type 2 machines have the hopper motor test disabled I was thinking they may not do the motor bump on machine power up).
I've never worked on or looked at a Type 1 game in a board. They would have to be the earliest models with no credit meter. All games from 1986-on are type 2. The type 2's have the hopper bump at startup. Not really sure why the hopper tests are disabled? CORRECTION: No hopper bump!
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WOW, I'm really losing it. Put my machines in storage for almost two years and I'm forgetting everything!.
Ok, made two corrections to this thread. First, standard hopper uses a grey optic, not a switch. Believe Ashi-Sieko hoppers use a switch.
2nd, there is no bump at startup. I'm thinking it is the Ultra Series that bumps. God I hope so or I'm really losing it! :rotfl:
Brought home my older Uni and refreshed my memory! And Rokgpsman, you were on to something!
Here's what I did;
-Put in standard hopper with daughter board dip #6 ON (for high speed hopper) and immediately got a 31 TILT (overpay) error on startup.
-No hopper connected with dip #6 ON and same results, error 31 at startup.
-Put in High Speed Hopper and set dip #6 OFF (for standard) and had same results, error 31 at startup. (Note: RAM clear also performed at every startup)
-Set dip #6 OFF (for standard) with no hopper connected and no errors at startup. Knew this would happen as I've done it before. Strange there is no error as grey optic is disconnected??
Now the good stuff;
Started machine and performed RAM clear with no daughter board and standard hopper. Machine starts fine. But guess what happened when I performed the #4 hopper test?
The hopper motor ran and the solenoid NEVER moved!!!! Sound familiar?
Ok Bob, this what you should do next. You need to post the dip settings on both the 4-pac dip on the main board (most likely all OFF) and post the dips on the 8-pac on the daughter board.
Then you need to perform, what I call, secondary test #6. Now this test is a little tricky as you have to press the RAM reset button on the mpu at the same time you press the green test switch six times. Actually, press the RAM reset and hold it in and then press the green test button with your other hand six times, wait about four seconds before releasing the RAM reset button.Best to unplug and remove the hopper for easy access to the RAM reset button.
Then look at the COINS PLAYED and WIN METER
The COINS PLAYED will cycle 1, then, 2,3, and back to 1 again. When it gets to 1, start writing down the last four numbers in the WIN METER, and then again when 2 is displayed in the COINS PLAYED, and again when 3 is displayed in the COINS PLAYED. It cycles over and over so verify what you wrote down.
Should look like this;
WIN METER 6_0000 (represents 4-pac on main board)
COINS PLAYED 1
WIN METER 6_0010 (represents 1-4 dips on daughter board 8-pac)
COINS PLAYED 2
WIN METER 6_0001 (represents 5-8 dips on daughter board 8-pac)
COINS PLAYED 3
Now, your 0's and 1's may be different as I do not know your dip settings, this is just an example.
This test will show what the MPU actually is seeing. If the daughter board is faulty or maybe not plugged in right the numbers won't match.
I tested mine with no daughter board and I got 1100 and 0011 on #2 and #3, so it did show something, but the daughter board I had removed before the test was 1111 0001.
Jim
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Here is an example of dip settings. You won't find these in the manual, they came later with each system chip release. This one is pretty much the norm.
The newest system chip versions like 9003 I don't have. Pretty sure they are basically the same as this one.
One thing I noticed is the game I have in the house now has a 8933.0041 system chip. The attached page shows it is for all 8933's. Yet dip #7 is for handle optics, grey or black. My machine has grey optics and it doesn't matter what I set dip 7 at, the handle always work. Most other system chips have dip 7 not used. Guess my version of 8933, 0041 does not use dip 7. All other dips work as listed.
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Those are good findings, thanks for going to that time & trouble. Are you suspecting that the hopper's optic sensor signal to the mpu is not getting processed right? Or that something is mis-matched between the type of hopper optics and the mpu dipswitch settings?
If I understand right, if the daughter board is not installed or not connected properly the hopper coin kicker solenoid will not work, but the hopper motor still does work. Does not having the daughter board installed turn the mpu back into a Type 1 machine, even though mpu has a newer system rom?
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Those are good findings, thanks for going to that time & trouble. Are you suspecting that the hopper's optic sensor signal to the mpu is not getting processed right? Or that something is mis-matched between the type of hopper optics and the mpu dipswitch settings?
No. Without the daughterboard the machine appears to use default settings. The readings I got were 1100 (dips 1-4), these first four settings mean a credit meter limit of 239 and you must press the cashout button prior to play to hold wins as credits(dip4), otherwise all wins immediately paid by hopper. The next four readings, (dips 5-8) were 0011.
These four mean the coin-in optics are grey, standard hopper, handle optics black, although I found this dip not used on my machine, and Max bet starts reels. (see previous dip setting attachment)
So even though set for standard hopper, the solenoid will not work. That's strange.
Another interesting fact. I thought the system chip read the daughter board at ram clear startup only. Reason I believed that was if you set dip6 to ON with standard hopper after ram clear, it tilts error 31 as it should. If then I reset dip6 to OFF with standard hopper, turn on the machine with no ram clear, it still tilts thinking dip6 is still on.
But I found today if I remove the daughter board and start the machine with no ram clear, the credit limit changes (use test 9 for credit limit) and I have dip4 ON so that it is always in credit mode. As soon as I pull the daughter board it becomes credit selectable. So, the program is looking at the daughter board all the time. Seems only some info going to ram memory, not all.
For some reason the daughter board has to be there for the solenoid to work.
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If I understand right, if the daughter board is not installed or not connected properly the hopper coin kicker solenoid will not work, but the hopper motor still does work. Does not having the daughter board installed turn the mpu back into a Type 1 machine, even though mpu has a newer system rom?
That seems to be the case.
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Is this the normal, usual Universal mpu board (photo below)? Did they make different versions of the daughter boards?
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Is this the normal, usual Universal mpu board (photo below)? Did they make different versions of the daughter boards?
Buried deep in a dark closet located on the web is a plethora of information. Actually it was the old site before server upgrades forced a move to this site.
Check out; http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=6714.0 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=6714.0)
Check out; http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=144.0 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=144.0)
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Thanks!
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Guys thanks for all you time and efforts helping with this repair. I'm out of town until Friday the 24th. I'll report in when I get a chance to run the test Uniman outlined.
Thanks again,
Bob
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4 Pac dip switches are all OFF
Daughter Board switches 3 & 8 ON all others OFF
ran secondary test and results are the same as UNIMAN's (6_0000 coins played 1, 6_0010 coins played 2, 6_0001 coins played 3.
Hope this helps out.
thanks
Bob
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4 Pac dip switches are all OFF
Daughter Board switches 3 & 8 ON all others OFF
ran secondary test and results are the same as UNIMAN's (6_0000 coins played 1, 6_0010 coins played 2, 6_0001 coins played 3.
Hope this helps out.
thanks
Bob
Well, that says the mpu is seeing the daughterboard just fine.
Only two possibilites left. Either mpu board has problem or the last possibilty is connection not being made. To check connection not being made unplug the hopper. On the connector coming down to the hopper carefully inspect the yellow wire. Look in the connector and make sure it isn't pushed back, compare it to the others. There is another connector about 12" up, check that one too. You can do a continuity check by ohming it between the hopper connector-yellow wire to the edge connector the mpu board plugs into. Bottom connector, 15 up, on right.
Since you have tested two different hoppers with same results, I'm ruling out problem in the hopper.
Meanwhile, I'm testing the four spare boards I have. Will let you know,
Jim