Bally 831 Payout Issue.

[Braden L]

Hey all!

I realized when checking on my post that I posted this in the wrong area originally... so here goes!. I have a Bally "821-ZH", which is in quotes because it was a custom redo by Sparks Nugget Casino that converted it over to a single line, 3-coin multiplier. I have a second machine, a Bally 831-ZZZC that I have been dabbling with to try and solve this issue, but that is a 3 line machine with no multiplier so it has been limited help...


First question... BOTH machines do this, when I put in the first coin it ALWAYS registers. When I put in a second coin, you can hear the solenoid kick in the top box, but sometimes it does not stick and the lights come back on for the first coin. Trying one more coin always successfully steps up. The final step up (what is supposed to be the third coin) ALWAYS works fine. I have cleaned and adjusted all of the coin relays, cleaned the step up mech, made some minor spring adjustments, made sure the EOS switch doesn't open until the very last second AFTER the ratchet locks into place. Not sure why they do it, mildly annoying but I'd be accepting of any ideas to get them working perfectly.

Now the real big issue... on the 3 coin multiplier machine, it ALWAYS pays out the right amount when you only have one coin put in. Without. Fail. Once a second or third coin is put in, it is completely 100% sporadic. I had this machine working perfectly for years and one day the glass got a crack. Took it out to have it remade, and it sat unused but covered for almost half of a year. Glass came in and was installed (door had to be removed) and ever since then, the payouts have been hosed.

All 1 coin payouts: Work every time consistently. This is the case for low, medium, and jackpot payouts.
All 2 and 3 coin payouts, random underpay with no consistency that I can tell.

For example, two oranges and a BAR should be 20 coins, 40 coins, or 60 coins depending on coins inserted.
1x coin, 20 coins paid every time and works perfectly.
2x coin... 10 coins one time, 3 another, 7 the next, 8 the next, 18 the next (literally just ran it and these are the results)

This behavior will occur on the lowest payouts (single cherry should pay 2, 4, or 6), middle values (oranges should pay 20, 40, 60), or high/jackpot values (777 or 3xBAR).

When a payout is short, the machine stops paying, the arm remains unlocked for another play, and winner paid comes on. To get it to continue the payout, I have to lift the arm that drops to unlock the pull handle. It is the one that is tripped by the solenoid and drops about a half inch on the right side of the cabinet. This is an electrically stepped hopper as well. The issue is ALWAYS under pays, I have never once seen an over pay. If you pull the lever and win again and get a short pay, you can just keep playing until a loss or successful payout, then the handle stays locked.

What I have done:
I have checked every switch, cleaned all of the contacts and contact plates, checked for loose wires etc. I found that on the left side of the reels, there was a set of 3 switches (the c switch stack) was always closed and fixed that. I rebuilt the two pinball style score reels in the top, cleaned and moving freely. I am hoping someone here that knows more can help point me to the right place to look! I thought I found the issue when investigating the door. If I moved the harness and connector around it would trip out the handle and stop the payout. I thought maybe it was a bad connector so I replaced both of them. Ever since then, the problem seems somewhat better, but it still does it about 75% of the time. Door opened or door closed. If I set a large payout so I have time to play with the wires, bending them, pulling, spinning them etc I can't get a consistent fault. I have also warmed up the harness and pulled on it to see if any of the wires "stretch" where a break might be. I am stumped and can't figure it out.

Thanks for any help at all!!

[Pinballwizard55]

Your  line reset coil may be magnetized, that is what is dropping your handle release arm and causing odds unit to reset. put a piece of tape between the coil face and the actuator plate.

[Braden L]

Your  line reset coil may be magnetized, that is what is dropping your handle release arm and causing odds unit to reset. put a piece of tape between the coil face and the actuator plate.

Hey, thanks for the tip!

I went ahead and made sure that was adjusted well and dropped some tape above the solenoid. Still doing the same coin step up behavior on 1->2 coin, and also have the horrible random payout failure issue. To isolate that as the issue, I added 3 credits and then slid strips of paper between the contacts in that relay stack, so even if it was still somehow triggering at least the switches wouldn't make contact. That did not change the behavior so I guess back to the drawing board.

For reference, on https://rwatts.cdyn.com/download/bally_em_manual/bally%20em%20manual.pdf pages 56 and 57 are identical to my one machine that works well overall. The machine that is acting up has that EXACT same hardware but the wooden face is laid out differently and someone added in two 3" wheels to track the multiplier I guess. The jackpot lockup relay stack is still wired in but never used as the machine is set up now to pay out on all wins. This machine is a custom one done VERY well by a casino to the point where the wax laxed harnesses were all re-wraped beautifully, so I would expect to notice anything egregiously out of place. Magnetism would make a ton of sense given the random behavior but this is a real brain twister.

If anyone needs photos of this, let me know what is needed and I can upload anything that is needed!

Thanks again for all of the help!

[wolftalk]

for the coining issue, suggest you stick a piece of paper between the "open at zero" switch contacts on the line unit.  The switch will be poking out over the white plastic ratchet/gear and will have blue/red wire 21-1 and yellow/red wire 31-2 on the blades.

you'll need to manually reset the unit each time, but what you want to know is if the unit is firing the reset coil when it shouldn't be.  If sticking the paper in doesn't help, you know the problem is with the unit step-up.

you can watch what's going on better with the unit outside the machine:
- remove the insert board
- jumper orange wire 70 from any convenient coil in the machine to any convenient coil on the insert board
- attach jumper end to yellow wire 30 on coin switch and touch other end to the line unit solenoid coil wires that are NOT the orange 70 wires.  That should fire the coil and you can see what's happening.

see https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/50V_Jumper_Testing.mp4

wrt the payout issue, bally did payout multiplication two ways:
1] used pinball machine style score reels and an electrically stepped payout counter
2] used a mechanically stepped payout counter and reset/repaid the win multiple times to get the right amount.

I'd guess you have [1] since single coin pays work, though usually an issue would result in overpay, not underpay.  Got some pictures of the payout counter side of the hopper and the top insert board?  If you can email highest resolution pics to slotpics@cdyn.com, that'd help.

the only way to get underpay is to step the payout counter too many times for each coin ejected ... in this case, a lot too many times.  Could be wiper bridging contacts issues on the line unit or carbon tracks on the circuit board on the score reel gizmos if that's what you have.

for [1] style pays, the pay should always end when the payout counter wipers step off the end of the appropriate trace for a single coin win.   e.g. for a 20 pay, the payout counter should step up 20 times.  When playing multiple coins, the score reels get inserted into the circuit so the payout counter only steps once for every 2 or 3 coins ejected.  If your payout counter isn't stepping up with a constant cadence, you have a problem assuming the coins are coming out at a constant rate.  e.g. it works for 1 coin pay.  It should step up at half that rate for a 2 coin play.

since coins pop out pretty quickly, taking and slowing down a video where you can see coins ejecting and the wiper movement on the payout counter is one approach.  Another way is having few coins in the hopper (or no coins and lift the coin out roller with your finger) so you can hear when the payout counter is stepping relative to the number of coins being ejected.

[DavidLee]

Manipulate the step up unit manually as to be sure it isn’t a mechanical problem.

[Braden L]

Thank you all for the assistance! As far as the coin up issue goes, I pulled the connector from the cabinet and watched everything operate. I needed to adjust the EOS switch so it BARELY opened 1/16" at the end of the stroke. Sometimes the ratchet was still bouncing a bit so by having it hold a little longer that settled down. Also I saw the reset coil hang a few times and I could not replicate that by manually triggering the solenoid with power. Turns out there was a small burr on the plate that sometimes hung up partially activated and the vibration of the coin relay in that stack would cause a reset. Sanded and put masking tape on it and both machines work flawlessly now!

As for the payout issue... I took video and a whole bunch of photos of the machine. The video shows and explains how it is acting up. Because I think there was confusion about it underpaying, I will reiterate that it DOES count perfectly every single time on single, two, and three coin games. Where the issue is... it will PAUSE paying because the handle unlock lever drops and puts the game into a weird state. If I manually reset that lever up into its locked position, payout will pick up where it left off and keep paying until the correct number of coins is dispensed.

Shared ambum that shows photos of the machine and includes a video showing it acting up and the state it ends up in and how I get it to mov:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yReqeQa6jQiexL6w5

I double checked that there is no carbon tracking anywhere, and it appears that all of the switch leaves are adjusted fine. I am not sure what could be triggering the handle unlock or at least causing it to enter an unlocked state randomly. I figured it was wiring in the door because I did find a bad connector, BUT even after replacing both connectors and repinning everything, it doesn't seem to have helped that payout pausing issue.

Thank you for all of the help, you all are great!

[wolftalk]

As for the payout issue... I took video and a whole bunch of photos of the machine. The video shows and explains how it is acting up. Because I think there was confusion about it underpaying, I will reiterate that it DOES count perfectly every single time on single, two, and three coin games. Where the issue is... it will PAUSE paying because the handle unlock lever drops and puts the game into a weird state. If I manually reset that lever up into its locked position, payout will pick up where it left off and keep paying until the correct number of coins is dispensed.

the handle release relay tripping when the door is open is a bit of a possibly self-inflicted problem :-)

when the door is open, the door interlock switch is open and the meters (cash box, total out and total in) have their power (wire 70) side now connect thru the total in meter coil and a line step-up relay switch to the handle release coil.

depending on the resistance of the various coils, it's possible that when the payout counter steps, the handle release coil will trip if the door switch is open.

to verify, you can either make sure the door switch is closed or stick a hunk of paper between the payout relay or payout counter step-up arm switches with the yellow/red 31-2 wire on one of the blades and see if the problem goes away.  31-2 is in the circuit to step up the total out meter.

if the game is misbehaving with the door closed, check the interlock switch.    You could also disconnect the total in meter to verify that's where the problem is coming from ... or just see if the meters are miscounting.

[Braden L]

the handle release relay tripping when the door is open is a bit of a possibly self-inflicted problem :-)

when the door is open, the door interlock switch is open and the meters (cash box, total out and total in) have their power (wire 70) side now connect thru the total in meter coil and a line step-up relay switch to the handle release coil.

depending on the resistance of the various coils, it's possible that when the payout counter steps, the handle release coil will trip if the door switch is open.

to verify, you can either make sure the door switch is closed or stick a hunk of paper between the payout relay or payout counter step-up arm switches with the yellow/red 31-2 wire on one of the blades and see if the problem goes away.  31-2 is in the circuit to step up the total out meter.

if the game is misbehaving with the door closed, check the interlock switch.    You could also disconnect the total in meter to verify that's where the problem is coming from ... or just see if the meters are miscounting.

Funny you should mention that the interlock switch may be the issue and that the meters are connected to all of this and that the coil resistence would possibly cause this issue...

So the interlock switch was more or less eliminated from the machine when the unit was converted from a jackpot unit to a 3 line multiplier one in its past life. It worked perfectly fine so I don't believe that would be the issue... BUT that being said, it is wired to do nothing but notify that the door was opened by someone with power on. There is a bodge wire running from the transformer power to the switch, from the switch up to the bell, and from the bell back down. All other wires except for one have been removed and taped off so other than ringing the bell, that switch doesn't appear to have any purpose any more.

As far as the coil comments go... when I got this machine and I was cleaning it, I found that the total in and total out meters were FULL of black sludge and rust. I hunted EVERYWHERE for replacement meters that matched the original black plastic veeder-root units. After failing for a long time, I eventually found some older Bally total count meters in the metal cans and swapped them out. That was around the same time that I broke the front glass and didn't use this for a while.

This is almost identical to the original meter that it would have had in it, this has a plastic mounting bracket, mine had two screw holes on the back that a metal bracket screwed onto instead but looks identical otherwise...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175174844619

The pair that I have in there now are these ones:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/126614577598

They appeared to work fine, and do in fact count up perfectly when things are running in this slot right now (aside from the pausing during payout issue). The original ones were 1.5 watt, the current ones are 4.2 watt. I figured this may cause additional wear on the contact leaves due to the higher amperage, but after your comment am tempted to remove those and see if it works with no meters installed. Would this be a logical next step or make sense as a cause from what you know? I'd love to have this working with the meters if possible!

Using my head a bit here, when the meter triggers repeatedly, it may be causing either a voltage drop or an inductive current. Because I dont have a wiring diagram for this, I am not sure what the difference in circuit would look like for a 1 vs 2/3 coin game and how that relates to the handle release solenoid BUT.... if the 2/3 coin games rely on a solenoid being locked in the in position, maybe there is a bad connection or too much of a voltage drop that causes that solenoid to unlatch and that triggers the handle release solenoid to fire off. I would assume that maybe this is happening on the back side of the hopper with the large solenoid/relay next to the spiral cam. The other suspicion would be that the 1 coin circuit doesn't have some component in circuit that the 2/3 coin circuit has (the multiplier tracker or something) and that in the 2/3 coin game, inductive currents may be flowing back to that handle release solenoid causing it to actually trip. Seeing that the new coil is more than 2x as powerful as the ones in the old meters... that inductive current could be much larger. Being that it seems totally random, that inductive current may be enough to jiggle the plate that trips the handle lock but not enough to totally engage that solenoid so after it fires so many times the compounding partial firing events causes it to fully trip eventually.

I will look at this when I get home and see if maybe something like a diode at the meters to dissipate the current, capacitor to filter transients, or something else that may help alleviate the issue if it is an inductive current issue. If it is a voltage drop I guess meter removal would be the solution as I don't have anything with a fast enough refresh rate to track voltages that accurately.

[wolftalk]

when the door switch got disconnected, the brown/yellow 63-2 wire should have been tied to wire 70 ... or 63-2 wire replaced at the meters with wire 70.

if they just disconnected 63-2 and left it hanging, the current path for incrementing the total out meter would go through the total in meter and the handle release relay coil.

which coils would actually fire depends on the total current, and as ya mentioned things like back emf could have odd side effects as you'd be creating voltage spikes where there shouldn't be any.

problem with all the above is why would it only show up on 2x or 3x pays.  The only difference with those is an additional coil firing on the X2 or X3 unit (see any 809 schematic for how bally typically did it).

in any case, using paper to keep open the 60-5 to 52-1 switch on the odds relay will prove if the problem is coming from the meter circuits, then ya can go from there.

I'll see if I have any of the black meters.  Hopefully I didn't take the box I had with meters to the pinball museum as I won't be there until next monday.