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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Amechanic on August 18, 2016, 11:02:25 PM
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I have a Bally 809 that's giving my a small fit. It came in last week not working. First thing is that I have a broken coin switch solder tab for the 50v wire. I plug the machine in and touch the broken tab to the switch and flick the wire, nothing.. :Scratch-Head: Then I see a huge mess.. Someone has sprayed white lithium grease in the handle gear box and on the top too.. Yea even the handle release contacts are full of the crap. :hissyfit: After replacing the coin switch with the only one I could find and swapping out the coin wire because the replacement too short, cleaning the handles contact, and performing basic cleaning and oiling I can now coin up the machine.. :dancing_2: I continued to fix a few small problems as I found them, then this machine started to not alway want to advance the stepper when coins 2-3-4, or 5 were inserted. I did some read and found that after the first coins inserted, coins 2-5 use a different circuit... It runs thru those sprayed handle contacts. Jump ahead now.. I've cleaned the handle switches 3 times, the last time today I used a brake cleaner to get rid of what was left of the spray grease. Then I cleaned them again with Q-Tips and rubbing alcohol. They are squeaky clean now and meter goo with my VOM. I've cleaned the beau plugs, reels switches A B & C, and cleaned the stepper blade contacts and on the wiper board.. All the contacts in the top box stepper have even been cleaned, adjusted and meter check, BUT I STILL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.. :banghead: :hissyfit: :banghead: I do see the lower set of contacts spark when being coined up. When it does this that same relay pull down but not stepper advance. Could it be the coin switch I installed? I don't think it's off an other Bally, possible a different machine I parted out. I'm stumped with this problem. I thought it was fixed, but after taking a break and coming back to play it, the problem started again?? Am I missing something? Stepper wiper contacts and wiper board were cleaned with a green scotch bright, the wiper board the got a small amount of contact grease.
OldReno, Jon, or anyone else have an idea :Scratch-Head:.
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Gary when you wake up give me a call
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Gary, after the first coin is inserted, the machine is reset from the previous coin up. if you advance the odds unit by hand, this should reset on the first coin, when the coin switch returns to the rest position it should energize the handle relay and its switches. the handle relay switches will flip and divert the next coin to the odds relay, it will stay energized through a set of its own switch contacts and the eos contacts of the odds unit. the other set of contacts of the odds unit will provide a path for the next return of the coin switch to pulse the odd step up unit ,which will advance the step up unit multipliers. your problem lies with one of the odds relay switch contacts, or the odds step up coil itself.
Jim
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Check continuity within the pertaining switches. I thought I've had contacts clean, but still no continuity.
Also my old stand by low tech fix is to give the hopper and the reel mechanism some side to side and back and forth movement. Do this in between coining up.
From the photos the machine appears to be in great shape.
Keep us posted.
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This is what I've seen happen today. I used a jumper wire on my coin switch from the 50V yellow common, to the center orange / green wire on the coin switch, N.O.. By doing this I don't have any misfires. It coins 2-5 every time.. It does the same thing if I manually close the odds relay, it coins 2-5 every time. I figured maybe my coin switch was questionable, but swapping it out didn't help my problem when I use coins, or flick the coin switch wire with my finger?? I see the odds relay close every time but I don't see the solenoid on the stepper try to pull in. To my trained eye and ears it seems that I don't have a strong pull on the odds coin every time? It's like it's not getting the full 50V or the pulse to the coil is too short? Does that make sence? I have a E51 switch in place and not the E53 it calls for.. What has me confused is that it coins up fine with a jumper wire but not thru the switch? Same problem with 2 different switches? FYI they were both E51 switches.
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Un-solder One side of the switch, add the jumper and manually test the machine like you did. Thus isolating the switch from the machine. Sounds like you've done this and the machine works perfectly. Then try putting the meter leads in between with the machine off to test for continuity. Then with the machine on check for the 50 volts AC.
Most switches have a 3rd wire and some have a resistor attached. I'll check my 809 later today or Sunday.
I have a machine that needs a little encouragement on the coin switch sometimes.
But in this situation it just stops working randomly. Its only happen a few times.
Using the handle side of a screwdriver I give it a couple of lite swift taps and the switch starts to work.
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Well I'm lost.. I've tested and taken apart and cleaned just about everything on this machine atleast twice and still can't get it to coin up consistently on coins 2,3,4&5.. Yet if I use a jump wire across the coin switch leads after coining up first coin, it never fails to count using the jumper wire? I've tried 3 different coin switches. Swiped the last one out of a machine in storage. What am I missing??
Where OldReno when you need him?? :EmoticonHelp4: :soapbox_3:
Gary
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Its going to be very interesting to find out whats up with the coin in situation.
Take a look at these photos from a working 809. Maybe there is something different.
The number on this switch is 7706C
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Nope.. The wiring colors, position and switch are all the same. This isn't my first rodeo, but this machine sure has me stumped. I can hear and see that the lower odds relay does cycle but the stepper doesn't alway advance. This happens only when running coin or when I flick the wire by hand, but like I've said if I use the jumper wire it works normally??
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I just arrived at the slot rodeo. So dont be cruel. But. My 922 will occasionally not accept a 2-5 coin, the soleniods on step up fire & progressive meters advance. The coin line lite doesnt advance, coin isnt regestered. I read a thread that the end of stroke switch was firing to soon or late. I also traced through handle switch and cleaned a lot. In the thread i read a slight adjustment to switch and it worked for them.
Jim
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This is a strange situation, works on the first coin, but not the rest unless you use a jumper.
What about the NC side of the switch. if the NC side is activated before the NO side. This action of the switch would be eliminated by a jumper. Thus there might be a problem on the NC side. After the first coin the machine resets the step up back to 1 coin and this action might be causing the NC side to interfere with the NO side of the switch. It's a shot in the dark.
Never tested one of these switches to see what the sequence is. Would probably set up two meters one for the NC and the another for the NO to see what happens.
Very interested in the solution.
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Jim,
You may be on to something.
Ride m cowboy
Gary said there was a lot of grease on the handle release area.
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I have tried 3 different coin switches, so I don't think it's in that switch. I've been reading a trouble shooting guide tonight. It's a bunch of personal note by a former EM tech. It mentions checking for loose coils, tight springs, bad or weak coils. I wish that the EM handle releases assembly had a molex plug connector so I could that this one out to clean and rebuild it. I did clean it with a brake cleaner to get rid of all the spray grease, then cleaned the whole assembly with rubbing alcohol and Q-Tips, then took a burnishing tool to the contacts.
Jim, I'm not too sure it can be the end of stroke switch.. I have the feature unit on a extention cable. While watching it while coin up I have seen the odds relay close and the stepper not move. I've seen the stepper try to cycle and not. It acts like you mentioned a timing thing, but then I go back to how it works with the jumper wire.. Maybe tomorrow I dive back into the handle contacts. Maybe I have some grease some where causing a bad connection or a low voltage short.
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I'm wondering what would happen if you removed the NC wire on the switch just for testing.
just a thought, but not recommending any procedures that you feel it could possibly damage the machine any farther.
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I'm beginning to think my problem lays in the feature unit. I took the handle contacts down and cleaned and adjusted them again. I took the lower contact loose and apart to clean them. I could not believe just how oil the still had on them. They work and read perfect. After that I tried to coin up again, but I still have the same issue. My odds relay fires but the stepper does not always advance. That when I noticed that the odds contacts close on the down stroke of the coin switch then the stepper would advance on the upstroke of the coin switch. I started tracing that orange/green wire thru the reels to the stepper. It seems that I trace that wire to the top center pin of the beau plug. When I attach my VOM to that pin I'm getting resistance on my meter. So there has to be a grounded wire or circuit. It dinner time now
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Gary. I had a similar problem on a E1000. The coin guide at the cat whisker /trip wire was not the correct size for the coin the machine was using. It had been converted. When the coin went through it would not always push the cat whisker the entire stroke needed to trip the switch. The coin guide was too large. Installed the correct guide and it fixed it. Tim
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Hey Tim, I checked that but that fine. I believe I have traced the problem to the contact on the odds relay. I took the odd unit apart looking for cold and bad solder joint. I fixed about a half dozen questionable ones in total. Cleaned and adjusted the contacts on the 3 relay stack. Put it all back together and had the same problem. I tried reducing the spring tension on the odds relay. That helped some :applause: next I tried running the stepper with only 1 spring, no difference.. If I use the coin switch for the first coin, then push down on the odd relay it will count the 2-5 credits every time. Next I used a jumper wire instead of the relays contacts and it counter 2-5 again every time. So I have come to the conclusion that the problem is that set of contacts. Even tho they meter ok, they don't always transfer the voltage needed to fire the setup coil. Now to see if I have a set of contacts to replace those. I'm done for the night.
Gary
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Gary, here is a video of the odds unit. Can't remember the problem, but I really had to clean the odds relay switch stack about 3 times really good.
I was tracing wires through the stack and found one set that needed a lot of cleaning before there was continuity. This is where the 74 wire leads to as you know.
https://youtu.be/tFzVjGmQcdE
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David, I have cleaned, adjusted and metered out these contacts so many times. I took the odds relay apart again and cleaned and reformed and then took 360 & 600 grit wet sand paper to them. They were so smooth and clean, but no difference when reassembled..
David what size is the coil on your odds relay? I thing this one is a G31 2000.. If this relay works on coining up 2-5 when I push down on the relay, it makes me think the coils weak or wrong.. Maybe a little stronger coin would over come my problem, because I'm real close to beating the crap out of it.
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Gary, think you solved the problem. The step up coil in this machines odds unit is a B25-925.
Double confirmation, its the horizontal coil I was reading.
Just in case the odds relay has a G31-1800 coil.
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Photo of the coil.
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The coil I'm wondering about is the odd relay not the stepper unit. Sounds like I have the wrong coil
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G31-1800 odds coil on this machine.
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G31-1800 odds coil on this machine.
Time to do so digging, whats stronger the G31-1800, or the G31-2200 that I have.. Where are my manuals.. :Scratch-Head: :EmoticonHelp4:
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1800
Having phone and internet problems
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Thanks Jon :hail: Give me a call when you can.. Gary
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David. Does your 809 have this JP Lock Up Relay in your feature unit? See Pic.. I was looking thru book and found this break down of the 809 feature unit. This one I have does not have that relay. Might explain the wire that were not connected..
Gary
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The one on the bench I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I have another 809 that had some additional parts in the top unit, but can't recall exactly what. Will check in the morning.
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Just wondering.. I know its not my problem, but I've only seen the first multiplayer ever work in this feature unit. Didn't matter what jackpot I set it at?
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Gary, I'm a little confused! in the first post you have four pictures of the feature unit, the third picture shows the odds unit step up coil and reset coil. it is the correct coil shown B-25-925. it shows the correct wire on it 61 wire ( red with a black tracer) . if you do the OLD Reno test for coils and it energizes the coil, I think the coil is good. could be something mechanical with the operation of the coil (dirty sleeve or gunk in and around the operating parts) I believe your problem has to be with the odds unit E.O.S. switch or the odds unit step up relay switch contacts. the 30 wire(yellow) goes through the eos ,comes out as a 27 wire( blue/ orange) to the odds step up relay switch, out of that switch as a 61 wire, which goes to the coil.
the only conflict I see in the schematics is the listing of the switch contacts, in one area it shows it as the odds unit step up relay switch, and on the schematic it calls that switch the " coin relay switch contacts"
Jim
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Gary, Re: extra relay switch. I've attached a few photos of the other 809. Probably it will be like throwing gas on a fire to put it out.
I think you've narrowed it down to the Odds Relay and the particular switch with the Orange Green wire. The first coin in works fine, as the reset relay does the work for the first time if the unit needs to be reset. Its when the odds unit needs to advance via the Odds Relay that is causing the problem. I'm just going over this in my own thought process as I'm sure you are well aware of the sequence. You mentioned, with a little assistance the switch would work. I'm sure you have cleaned between the coil and the metal armature and the armature moves freely.
In the past on a few occasions I've add the slightest bit of lubricant between the metal portion and the white plastic to reduce any friction on the armature.
Not sure why this other 809 has the extra parts in it, but will run it on the bench to see what happens. My first guess would be higher payouts, even though the glass indicates $10. Could be wrong glass. May someone could enlighten me on this extra equipment.
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I too have an 809 with the extra odds unit on the right-hand side of the feature unit. This was the subject of a topic recently and after receiving input from forum members, I deduced that it was for counting jackpots.
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Thanks for the post.. I just wanted to see the other 809 feature unit with the extra parts. I have not had a chance to get back to my machine since Monday night. I came down sick with a stomach issue. I ate something for lunch on Monday that I should not have and my gallbladder threw a fit. I've been down for almost 40 hour. Need to get the dang thing removed, and have been working on loosing weight.
I think my next move is to try a different coil in the Odds relay. Mines a G31-2000 but Davids is and G31-1800. Now I just need to locate one. I looked in my books, but nothing shows what coins go in what relays? Even the schematic just shows coil and not values? Does anyone know what's the right size?
Gary
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Hi kids. Been unable to log in, forgot my log in name but called Joey at NLG and he found the problem. Thx Joey.
So be aware that there are 2 kinds of coin in switches, and the NO and NC contacts are reversed. Unplug your door molexes and ohm out the switch. The 74 wire should be to the NC side. I know you have checked and rechecked but if you have solder iron handy try swapping those 2 wires just for giggles.
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Found myself a 31G-1800 coin in my shed today. I installed it but it didn't totally fix this problem.. I did play up to 15 coins at one time without a miss count. I went back and check relay gaps, even cleaned the handle release contacts again, still not corrected? Can someone give me a flow chart showing the coin up sequence? I know the down stroke of the coin switch closes the coin switches on the reels, then the handle release coil fires, that sends power to the relays that cycles the coil to reset the step up unit back to coin 1.. The upstroke of the coin switch is what powers the coil on the odds relay stack. When the lower contact closes that sends power to the step up unit to advance for coin 2-5.. I'm just not sure of the sequence of the up stroke of the coin switch. I do know that it flows thru the handle contacts to the odds coil, but what other switches or contact does it go thru before it gets to the odds coil? I just feel I'm missing a set of contacts some where.. I tried to read the schematic in my book, but I get confused following the flow, Never been my strong suit...
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Dear Amechanic thanks for asking, I will do a post on coin switch down and upstroke in detail shortly, but here it is in a nutshell: 1st coin in downstroke trips the coin relay and also fires the odds unit reset relay (and reset solenoid ONLY if it needs it). 1st coin upstroke then fires handle release coil allowing for a play. That's basically all that happens on 1 coin in.
2nd coin downstroke turns on odds unit step up relay forcing it into a holding circuit (getting ready for upstroke).
2nd coin upstroke now fires the odds unit step up solenoid (which in turn kills the holding circuit to the odds step up relay.) Same exact sequence for 3,4,5 coins in.
If you open up top unit you can see this happen. Thanks for prompting me to do a post about this. Glad there is interest!!
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Here's a quicker explanation -- 1 coin downstroke resets odds and trips coin relay. Upstroke releases handle. Just like the Terminator, that's all it does.
2 coin downstroke turns on odds relay, upstroke fires odds step up solenoid. You now have 2 coins registered. Same with 3,4,5,6 coins
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expanding on renos points and yours all is ok after the first coin then to make it work you must be pulsing the 74 wire orange/green this should go through a closed switch on the odds relay we know then it steps up to accept 2 3 4 and 5th coin
so logically
poor switch closing on the odds relay check with ohm meter
check with ohm meter coin switch both n/o and n/c to common
as last resort check your 5ov on coin in switch after you have played 1 coin to see what you have you should see 0v across n/c and 50v across the n/o then flick down switch and hold down whilst across the common and n/c you should see 50v and then 0v across the n/o
after this if no luck put it on craigs list !!!!
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Lmao
Put it on Craigslist
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Thanks guys.. I will look it over one more time tomorrow.. It's too nasty in my garage today, humidity and dew point are both in the 70's.. It's like a sauna in there, all I have is a high speed box fan.. Trust me I wanted to give up on this thing days ago, but it's a customers machine not mine.. This thing was a mess when it came in, no dash pot contacts, just wires soldered together, lower door switch for the over flow coin switch were cut and untaped causing a short on the metal over flow chute and getting shocked when I closed the door. After fixing that it continued to blow fuses when the door closed, found that I had a short in the coin in meter circuit.. Removed the meter and the fuse blowing stopped, or I thought.. It still blew the 50V fuse when the door closed, but only when you pushed the lower coin in switch and held it in.. I removed that switch and now it does not blow the 50V fuse.. I have used my VOM to check the 50V wire to cabinet for a short, nothing.. Did the same with the 6.3 V circuit it was checked for a dead short using my VOM, nothing..
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IIRC if coin switch is wired backwards, you should see coin accepted light stay on after handle pull. Don't have working machine but if you do try this to verify-- push coin in switch down for 2 coins in but leave your finger holding it down. Pull handle and see if coin acc lite comes on...?