Bally 1174 hopper payout issue

[AClineman]

Newbie here glad I found this forum.

I just picked up a Bally 1174 big prize 2 coin slot our daughter’s neighbor had to the curb. It was dirty but clean if you know what I mean. Glass and chrome cleaned up well minus the metal around the glass frame it’s a little rusty. I’ve been tinkering with it relamped with LED’s (except the stop buttons seems not worth the hassle to get to them, only one not lighting and a few in the lower glass)
Got everything working except one
When you hit a jackpot, even if it’s only supposed to pay out a couple coins, it runs for 10 to 15 seconds and then the entire game shuts off. I hit the reset button trip the coin mech,press start and the hopper starts paying out again until it shuts off. I repeat this cycle 3 to 5 times and then the game resets and is ready to play. I suspect it might have something to do with the red plastic disc on the side of the hopper. It has contacts on it and appears that it should be turning, but it never moves. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I’m all ears.
Thanks in Advance

Harry

[AClineman]

Tried attaching a photo but it says the file is too large

[DavidLee]

The coin payout step up cam I believe is what you’re referring too.

The contract fingers should reset near the 6 o’clock position.
It can be manually advanced and reset by pushing the plungers into the coils.
The horizontal coil resets the unit back to zero. It’s easier to access and push in with a pencil.
Start there to see what happens.

Regarding the photo, taking a screenshot of the original photo in some cases will reduce the image size enough to attach it to the post.

[AClineman]

The coin payout step up cam I believe is what you’re referring too.

The contract fingers should reset near the 6 o’clock position.
It can be manually advanced and reset by pushing the plungers into the coils.
The horizontal coil resets the unit back to zero. It’s easier to access and push in with a pencil.
Start there to see what happens.

Regarding the photo, taking a screenshot of the original photo in some cases will reduce the image size enough to attach it to the post.

Thank you David
I am new to the slot world not clear on the proper lingo and will try and see if I can figure out what ur talking about. But right now we just became grandparents again for the 4th time so it might be a minute before I get to it. 

[AClineman]

At the curb

[AClineman]

Cleaned up

[DavidLee]

These machines were built like tanks and clean up well.

Nice machine with the hold buttons, not very common.

I’ll try to send a photo of the payout step up unit.

[AClineman]

Thanks David
Those contacts you mentioned were down in the 6 o’clock position and I tried resetting the horizontal solenoid , however the result was the same. When it pays out it just runs until the game shut off.
I’ll look at it some more later.
Thanks for the advice

Harry

[AClineman]

Thanks

[slcjeeper]

Big Prize was one of Ballys very few Skill Stop (Yes, Skill Stop) machines with motorized reels. This machine works the same as a Pachislo in that you are hoping to be able to stop the reels on a win.  Typically when you see a Bally with reel buttons, it’s a Hold and Draw, which means before spinning the reels, you hold any reels you want to keep with the expectation that what you need will land on the remaining reel. Another interesting detail about this machine is the ability to refill the hopper through the top chute door on the top of the cabinet. From what I recall, all played coins go to the drop (the chute that goes to a collection point in a cabinet under the machine) rather than to refill the hopper. I may be wrong on that since it’s been so long since I’ve had my Big Prize out.

Anyhow, let’s start with the payout unit. As a coin exits the hopper, it passes under a roller at the top of the hopper. As the roller lifts as the coin goes by, through linkage, it will advance the white 100 tooth gear behind the red spiral disc 1 click. So let’s make sure mechanically that is happening. If the roller does not lift high enough, the gear will not advance and the roller may need to be adjusted. Next, manually engage the vertical solenoid on the back of the payout unit. Each push should advance the unit 1 click. You ought to be able to get 200 clicks out of it before the spring begins to bind. If you notice the copper wipers in your picture are at 6 o’clock. 1 revolution of the wipers is 100 clicks, however, rather than clicking 200 times, just manually rotate the spiral disc 1-1/2 times so the wipers are at 12 o’clock, then manually click another 50 steps. If the unit binds before making it to 200 clicks, a spiral spring is most likely too tight and needs to be adjusted. Once you achieve 200 clicks, manually engage the horizontal reset solenoid and the unit should snap back to it’s start position known as “Zero”. On the carriage over the spiral is a switch at the 9 o’clock position, whitch is the “Zero” switch. When the unit resets to zero, it should engage with this switch.

A very wordy explanation, but thought I would hopefully make it more understandable.

[wolftalk]

As a coin exits the hopper, it passes under a roller at the top of the hopper. As the roller lifts as the coin goes by, through linkage, it will advance the white 100 tooth gear behind the red spiral disc 1 click. So let’s make sure mechanically that is happening.

anyone have paperwork for the 1174?  I've only got pictures, but per those the payout counter is electrically stepped.

the roller arm gets lifted by the ejecting coin, but it closes switches and those switches fire a coil to step up the payout counter ... maybe.  There's a multiplier unit in the top compartment that looks like a pinball machine score reel.  If If you play two coins, that thing is what steps every time a coin is ejected and every other step the payout counter is also stepped ... so 2 coins out = 1 step of the payout counter and your payout is doubled.

if the payout counter is not stepping as coins are ejected, a safety circuit will shut the machine down.   The usual circuit by the 1174 era used a microswitch riding on a cam on the back of the payout counter to reset the safety motor behind the hopper via a delay relay that had a capacitor and diode on it.

what ya want to do is set up a payout and after the game times out, yank the hopper and look at the payout counter.  If the wipers are still at 6:00, the payout counter is not stepping.  If the wipers have rotated counter-clockwise from 6:00, then it's more likely an issue with the safety circuit.

when the wipers on the payout counter don't reset, then the hopper motor will only turn on when a win is higher than any previous win, and you'd get paid the difference from the previous win and the pay would end.  e.g. if you were previously paid 2 for a cherry and you got three oranges, you'd get paid 8 more coins.  If you then got three plums you'd get 4 more coins.  The payout counter reset coil should fire every spin if the unit is not already reset.

[AClineman]

Big Prize was one of Ballys very few Skill Stop (Yes, Skill Stop) machines with motorized reels. This machine works the same as a Pachislo in that you are hoping to be able to stop the reels on a win.  Typically when you see a Bally with reel buttons, it’s a Hold and Draw, which means before spinning the reels, you hold any reels you want to keep with the expectation that what you need will land on the remaining reel. Another interesting detail about this machine is the ability to refill the hopper through the top chute door on the top of the cabinet. From what I recall, all played coins go to the drop (the chute that goes to a collection point in a cabinet under the machine) rather than to refill the hopper. I may be wrong on that since it’s been so long since I’ve had my Big Prize out.

Anyhow, let’s start with the payout unit. As a coin exits the hopper, it passes under a roller at the top of the hopper. As the roller lifts as the coin goes by, through linkage, it will advance the white 100 tooth gear behind the red spiral disc 1 click. So let’s make sure mechanically that is happening. If the roller does not lift high enough, the gear will not advance and the roller may need to be adjusted. Next, manually engage the vertical solenoid on the back of the payout unit. Each push should advance the unit 1 click. You ought to be able to get 200 clicks out of it before the spring begins to bind. If you notice the copper wipers in your picture are at 6 o’clock. 1 revolution of the wipers is 100 clicks, however, rather than clicking 200 times, just manually rotate the spiral disc 1-1/2 times so the wipers are at 12 o’clock, then manually click another 50 steps. If the unit binds before making it to 200 clicks, a spiral spring is most likely too tight and needs to be adjusted. Once you achieve 200 clicks, manually engage the horizontal reset solenoid and the unit should snap back to it’s start position known as “Zero”. On the carriage over the spiral is a switch at the 9 o’clock position, whitch is the “Zero” switch. When the unit resets to zero, it should engage with this switch.

A very wordy explanation, but thought I would hopefully make it more understandable.

You are correct about filling the hopper from the top of the machine however, I don’t have a key for the top compartment so I fill it through the front of the hopper.

As for the roller the quarters raise,there was an adjustment screw missing in the in the linkage that gets the points closer together, so I put a screw in there made an adjustment and that made the bell ring every time a coin went through where it’s wasn’t ringing before.

Per your advice and closer inspection I now see how the red disc rotates with a pin in the groove which moves the entire assembly to the left. However, when trying to rotate that disc from the 6 o’clock position one and a half times, it seemed noticeably stiff in my opinion, and what caught my attention was when you said when you trigger the vertical solenoid to let it snap back to the zero position nothing was happening. So I lubed all the linkage around the hundred tooth gear, etc. rotated the disc and it must have been gummy because now it snaps back to the zero position. I got excited because I figured that was the problem so I reinstalled the hopper played the game but now every time you hit a payout, it doesn’t pay out at all 100% opposite of my original issue where it wouldn’t stop paying out.
 I hit three plums nothing, three bells nothing, cherry nothing………..
For the heck of it I set the wipers at the 9 o’clock position put the hopper back in played the game once without hitting a jackpot remove the hopper and the wipers were back to the zero position. Not sure if that means anything, but I would think that’s where it should be once you start a new game.

Anyway thanks for the advice and I’ll keep trying

Any more suggests on this new issue I’m all ears
Harry

[AClineman]

anyone have paperwork for the 1174?  I've only got pictures, but per those the payout counter is electrically stepped.

the roller arm gets lifted by the ejecting coin, but it closes switches and those switches fire a coil to step up the payout counter ... maybe.  There's a multiplier unit in the top compartment that looks like a pinball machine score reel.  If If you play two coins, that thing is what steps every time a coin is ejected and every other step the payout counter is also stepped ... so 2 coins out = 1 step of the payout counter and your payout is doubled.

if the payout counter is not stepping as coins are ejected, a safety circuit will shut the machine down.   The usual circuit by the 1174 era used a microswitch riding on a cam on the back of the payout counter to reset the safety motor behind the hopper via a delay relay that had a capacitor and diode on it.

what ya want to do is set up a payout and after the game times out, yank the hopper and look at the payout counter.  If the wipers are still at 6:00, the payout counter is not stepping.  If the wipers have rotated counter-clockwise from 6:00, then it's more likely an issue with the safety circuit.

when the wipers on the payout counter don't reset, then the hopper motor will only turn on when a win is higher than any previous win, and you'd get paid the difference from the previous win and the pay would end.  e.g. if you were previously paid 2 for a cherry and you got three oranges, you'd get paid 8 more coins.  If you then got three plums you'd get 4 more coins.  The payout counter reset coil should fire every spin if the unit is not already reset.

Thank you
When you say there’s a multiplier unit in the top compartment, are you referring to the compartment where the reels are or the top of the machine where the coins get dumped in? Because I don’t have a key for the door at the top of the machine.

[DavidLee]

The top compartment is behind the very top glass.
When the door is open the top glass can be lifted up and out.
Push the two slide latches to release the light panel. It will swing downward exposing more switches.
Do a general inspection, wires, solder joints, contacts, springs, burnt coils.
The units in the top usually preform well and occasionally need cleaning.
I wouldn’t expect any problems, except for the obvious ones mentioned.

Regarding the pivot roller, best to check continuity to be sure the contacts are working.

Eliminating one component at a time will help in locating problems.

As mentioned, if the payout step up unit doesn’t know coins are passing under the pivot roller.
The machine will run until the safety timer runs out.

[wolftalk]

you've got a newer hopper with the adjustment screw in the pivot roller.  You may need to put a nut on the screw first, then adjust the screw to get the appropriate switch action (some overtravel after the contacts touch), then tighten the nut down to lock the screw in place.

the payout counter wipers should reset during the handle pull if they are not already reset.

the basic idea is you spin the reels and when they index, the wipers on the reel boards are positioned appropriately for the symbol on the payline.  If you get a closed circuit path thru the reels and the payout counter wipers, the payout relay is powered to turn on the hopper motor.  As coins eject, the payout wipers step up/rotate and when they step off the end of the active pay trace, the payout relay loses power and the pay stops.

if the game is not detecting a win and the payout counter wipers are reset ... and the board doesn't have anything on it that would prevent the wipers from electrically making a good connection to the traces ... the quick first thing is clean any crud off the pins on the reel and hopper connectors.  A scrub pad and alcohol will do it, so will a fine wire brush on a dremel.    Don't worry about cleaning the sockets assuming there's no obvious corrosion or crap in them.

the reel wiper boards also need to be relatively clean and electrically conductive between the wiper fingers and the brass rivets.

if cleaning the pins and wiper boards doesn't help, then it's time to ohmeter connections or use a voltmeter to see where the circuit is not working.  Jumper wires can also be used.  Got a preference?

generally speaking, when a stepper unit like the payout counter is gunked up, it's time to disassemble and clean.  Grease is not really necessary on plastic<->metal interfaces and will eventually gum things up.

I vaguely recall that a few machines had a way to lock the upper glass so you couldn't just lift it up and remove it, but the 1174 pics I've seen you don't need to open the door on top of the cabinet to lift the glass out. 

with the glass out and the lamp panel flipped down, you can probably remove enough bits to access the lock.  If not tho, you can always drill out the lock and replace with a standard coin op/pinball lock once you see how long the cylinder - typically 7/8" measuring the threaded part of the lock.

[AClineman]

First off thanks for everyone for all your input, advice and help. I cleaned up some stuff and now it’s paying out and it’s paying out the correct amount of coins!!
However, every random win once in a while, it’s not paying out but if I push the vertical solenoid down, it pays out the correct amount of coins and is ready to play again so I think that solenoid isn’t firing when it’s supposed to 100% of the time, now if I can only figure out which contacts control that solenoid I might be onto something.

On another note while playing it, I inserted two coins hit three sevens and that’s the big prize of a payout of 400 quarts.  Nothing paid out but the bell was going crazy. I assume it doesn’t hold that many coins and the bell is alert the slot attendant to come over and pay you off, but that’s just a guess on my part.

[wolftalk]

yup on the hand-pay.

some versions of the machine may pay up to 200 coins and the rest hand pay, others they pay everything by hand.  It was a casino choice.

the payout counter unit can step a little over 200 times, so without some kind of multiplication circuit, 200 coins is the max and the rest is hand paid.  Payout multiplication was typically either reset the payout counter and pay again or only stepping the payout counter once for N coins ejected.

by vertical solenoid you mean the smaller solenoid coil on the payout counter that causes the wipers to reset?  If yes, the problem is intermittent firing of that coil when during "windup" of the reel mech. 

problem is you have a motorized reel mech, so windup and the typical associated reel mech switches don't exist. 

however, a typical switch in the circuit is the one on the front of the payout counter operated by the spiral cam.  Make sure that switch is opening only when the payout counter is reset.

technically, that zero switch should close when the payout counter steps up once, but as long as it closes before your minimum payout you're ok.  The idea is when the payout counter is reset, that switch is open so the reset solenoid doesn't fire when it's not necessary.

if the vertical coil is the one that steps up the payout counter, see if the traces on the payout counter board are burnt or if the wipers are resetting too far and falling off the left edge of the traces.

if you ever find the paperwork for the game or want to email highest possible pictures of the internals (like both sides of the payout counter), slotpics@cdyn.com is good and I'll add the pics to https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

[AClineman]

yup on the hand-pay.

some versions of the machine may pay up to 200 coins and the rest hand pay, others they pay everything by hand.  it as a casino choice.

the payout counter unit can step a little over 200 times, so without some kind of multiplication circuit, 200 coins is the max and the rest is hand paid.  Payout multiplication was typically either reset the payout counter and pay again or only stepping the payout counter once for N coins ejected.

by vertical solenoid you mean the smaller solenoid coil on the payout counter that causes the wipers to reset?  If yes, the problem is intermittent firing of that coil when during "windup" of the reel mech. 

problem is you have a motorized reel mech, so windup and the typical associated reel mech switches don't exist. 

however, a typical switch in the circuit is the one on the front of the payout counter operated by the spiral cam.  Make sure that switch is opening only when the payout counter is reset.

technically, that zero switch should close when the payout counter steps up once, but as long as it closes before your minimum payout you're ok.  The idea is when the payout counter is reset, that switch is open so the reset solenoid doesn't fire when it's not necessary.

if the vertical coil is the one that steps up the payout counter, see if the traces on the payout counter board are burnt or if the wipers are resetting too far and falling off the left edge of the traces.

if you ever find the paperwork for the game or want to email highest possible pictures of the internals (like both sides of the payout counter), slotpics@cdyn.com is good and I'll add the pics to https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/

Thanks Wolftalk for all the help and sorry for my uneducated lingo I’m new at looking at and troubleshooting a slot machine this is my first attempt.

I at work now so I’m trying to recall but there’s 4 solenoids on the hopper assembly that I can see two are smaller and square, one in the front and one in the rear, and two larger ones that are more round one towards the front, which is mounted vertical and another kind of near the center of the hopper located behind the red spiral disc that is mounted horizontally. The larger one mounted vertically towards the front is the one I push down when a payout is won but not paid. When I push it the hopper spins and pays out the correct amount then it’s ready to play again. It might payout correctly 3-4-5 times after that and then randomly stops paying out again until I press that solenoid.

I’ll try to get some photos if you think it helps

Thanks
Harry

[wolftalk]

terminology is a pita :-)  Generically there's coils and specifically there's solenoids and relays.

solenoids are the coils that have metal plungers that get sucked into them when the coil is powered.  Things connected to the plunger rod do the work.

relays are the gadgets with coils and blades with contacts.  When the coil is powered, a metal armature plate us pulled onto the coil top and switch blades that poke thru a lifter connected to the armature deflect and change state wrt surrounding blades.

the payout counter is on the left side of the hopper assembly.  It has the spiral cam and wiper fingers riding on traces on the brownish contact plate.  The step up solenoid is directly behind the hopper handle with the plunger vertical.  If pushing on that does something and it pays correctly, that'd be a bit odd as usually you'd get an underpay.  In any case, you'd probably want to remove the top screw and loosen the bottom one, then you can pivot the payout counter down and look at the back/ratchet side better.   

the payout relay is on the back of the hopper kinda next to the payout counter unit.

there's another relay sticking a little out of the hole in front of the hopper next to the handle.  Would need to see pics and especially the wire colors on the coil.  There may be a diode, capacitor and resistor hanging around it ... if so, it may be a hopper cutoff relay or delay relay.  If it's a hopper cutoff relay, it typically has a grey/orange wire going to the unbanded end of a diode, the banded end of the diode goes to a resistor and the resistor connects to a lug on the relay coil.

when the handle is released, the hopper cutoff relay usually powers and stays powered. 

without a schematic some guessing will be needed to compare to other games of that era that I have paperwork for, so lots highest possible resolution pics help.  You'll probably need to email them to slotpics@cdyn.com due to file size limitation here.  If emailing directly from a device, send them "actual size".