New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: clk71 on June 02, 2015, 08:59:57 AM
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Hi All,
I am new to this forum, and am hoping you can help me fix an 831 I bought on Craigslist. I have experience with arcade and pin games, but no "reel" slot experience.
The guy I bought it from said it worked for 10 years, then one day a coin must have caused a short and the transformer started cooking itself to death. Cosmetically, the machine itself is decent, with good glass and OK chrome, so I welcomed this project to my collection.
I opened it up, and indeed the transformer is burnt up. I also noticed that at some point, two of the three fuses by the transformer were bypassed. I suspect that something further along the line caused the meltdown with no fuse protection, but I'll have to fix the immediate problems before I can find out.
Can anyone help me get a transformer? The part manual online I found says it takes an E-122-105, and the number stamped on the transformer is 122-101 (not sure if there is a difference). Can anyone also help me get a couple of the fuse holders/fuses that are missing, and tell me which wires go to which one? I can't find the specific electrical wiring diagram for this machine online. I am hoping that someone has a pile of junker machines lying around that I can get parts from.
Once I put things back to normal, I can continue to troubleshoot (if necessary... maybe it will just magically work again!). I also noticed that someone wired xmas tree lights to light up the coin door reel glass window, and I am missing some kind of topper that sits in a chrome holder attached to the top of the cabinet, but those are easy things to fix.
Thanks again for any help!
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Whoever bypassed the fuses made a silly mistake. The fuses are there to protect the wiring and other parts if a short circuit occurs. When this happens without the fuse then excessive electrical current flows and can do considerable damage.
You will need to find what is causing the short circuit and get it repaired, do a good visual inspection, especially of the added wiring someone installed. Look for pinched wires or where wire insulation may have been pierced by sharp metal edges, etc. A continuity meter for checking for short circuits will be helpful. I'd be careful about just replacing the transformer and powering it up, hoping for the best. Whatever cooked the original transformer could do the same thing to the next one. I'd at least get the fuses reinstalled along with the replacement transformer so they protect it.
That is an older power transformer, perhaps someone here will have one. Also, some of the slot dealers sometimes teardown machines and have parts like that. You can check with Rudy’s and other dealers here on the NLG homepage to see. Also, you can post a WTB (Want To Buy) ad in the classified forum. Rudy’s sometimes has items in stock that are not listed on their website so you can contact them to check. Their prices are generally pretty good if they have the item you need.
The fuseholders should be available from electronic supply places like Jameco, Mouser, and even on ebay. A popular size is the 5x20mm style but you'd need to verify that is the size needed for your machine.
http://rudysdeals.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=transformer (http://rudysdeals.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=transformer)
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=fuseholder&search_type=jamecoall (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=fuseholder&search_type=jamecoall)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=fuseholder+20mm&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.Xfuseholder+5x20mm.TRS1&_nkw=fuseholder+5x20mm&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=fuseholder+20mm&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.Xfuseholder+5x20mm.TRS1&_nkw=fuseholder+5x20mm&_sacat=0)
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Thanks for the links. I checked Rudy's and didn't find a transformer, so I sent him an email. Hopefully someone on the forum has a transformer sitting around.
Yeah, can you believe someone would cut out the fuses? Dumb! I wish I knew the real story behind the machine, but it has almost 50 years of history at this point. I wonder if the guy I got it from had a problem with the machine blowing fuses and was really the person who pulled them out.
Thanks again for any and all leads on finding this transformer!
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The Bally fuse holders have been known to crack and the top caps fail. Instead of replacing the fuse holders someone might just connected the wire together instead if replacing them. You can use any fuse holder that uses that size glass fuse. Have you checked on Ebay for the transformer? I have seen then for sale there before. If you can't locate a transformer let me know, I might be able to locate one.
Gary
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Loose coins are known for shorting out machines, like the dime in your picture on the back wall.
Check around for loose change inside the machine, change the fuse holders and wire them back as they belong. I have a few transformers let me see what I have.
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As Neonkiss said, loose coins are killers... People have a bad habit of laying the slot machines on there back when the move them and don't remove or empty the hoppers.. All it takes is for one coin in a wrong place to make a lot of damage.. :burningresistor: :wtf1:
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email me your name address and I will send you a transformer and 3 fuse holders
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Sorry, I do not have any that old, but looks like you have your lead on one
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Welcome to the forum! We are always looking for new blood. I have learned that almost everything on a Bally EM can be fixed. Take your time and listen to the wise ones on this forum and you cant go wrong. Seems like you have located your parts. Great. If not I know a member who has 3 of every part on an EM.
Best of lock and send us more pictures of your game.
Ra
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You guys are great, thanks for the overwhelming help! I will let you know when the transformer and fuse holders arrive, and keep everyone posted on progress. While I wait, do you have suggestions on how to clean up the chrome on the exterior? Mine is not bad, but has some minor pitting on it.
Here is a picture of the inside of the coin door, with the "custom" Xmas light string that I have to sort out. Very creative?
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Simple fix. Someone cut and taped the 110v wires for the ballast to the light string. You need to find out if you have your light sockets for the reels bulb. There should be a socket for the starter too. The cleaner CLR works great to help with rust, then just a chrome polish
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Just removed the reel light shield to take a look. Both the fluorescent bulb sockets are still there and the wiring looks unhacked, just missing the bulb. I'll head off to Home Depot later today to hopefully pick up the F6T5 c/w bulb the manual says it takes (thanks for the manual link a few posts ago!). If they don't stock it I can order it online from a ton of places for anywhere between 0.95 and 5.99 each. I'll pick up a couple new starters also... anyone know off hand which ones the game takes?
The starter is still in place with its socket, so good there. It was pretty funny when I took the light shield off. About six feet worth of bundled up Xmas lights fell out. Yeesh, the steps people will take to avoid buying a light bulb!
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The starter is a FS-5 I believe. It could be the FS-2, but it should say on the package. I buy a FS-U sold on line. It a universal starter that covers many uses.. Your going to pay $5-$10 for a single bulb at Home Depot or any hardware store. I buy mine on line for a lot less, but you have to pay shipping, usually $7-$10 depending on how much you buy. I've been using 1000bulb.com for a few years and have had good luck with them.
Gary
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I'm not very good at shipping but this looks good to me
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That should work, but I wouldn't put it past the USPO to figure out how to break something.
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That is one good looking heart transplant! Did you get my private message with the address? Just want to make sure I sent it correctly.
I'll snap a pick of the machine and upload it tonight so you guys can see the before and after!
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The EM transformers are getting harder to find. I have 3-4 for the E-Series, and I think one or two for the EM. I think my EM are the 105 version not the 101.. I'm not sure what or there is a difference is?? I have a beautiful 831 with electrical problem.. I noticed the transformer looked to have gotten hot. I have wax all over the safety timer, but most of the machines voltages check correctly? I just pushed it into the corner for a later day.
Can't wait to see if your machine comes back to life with the new parts. I just had a thought.. I remember somewhere that a bad ballast could cause a transformer to go bad. I'd be careful when you hook up that reel bulb in your machine. It might be worth buying a new light ballast while your replacing the bulb and starter. That's a common ballast and should be available where you get the bulb.
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Gary I think the difference between the 101 and the 105 transformer is the 105 has 220 and 240 volt input on it as well as 120
and if you need any transformers are other EM parts Gary let me know I recently acquired about 4 ton of parts
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Holy Crap!!! I'm looking for Red Reel and feature glass for a 873 5 line 5 coin.
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For red you'll have to wait till I get to Michigan and go through I have 500 more pieces all I have here is black and blue glass
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Black Glass would work too since the Belly glass is Red & Black. It doesn't have to be perfect since I'm making a storage locker/cabinet out of the case and reel shelve. It's a work in progress. How in the heck are you going to move all those parts you have back here in MI?
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Lots of great information posted about your machine. I'm sure your going to double check all the wiring, contacts etc for any obvious shorts or burn marks.
Is the fuse holder screw in place or just resting on the bottom of the case? Either or you might consider moving it up above the labels for better access if possible. With the wires being taped together I would assume the machine was running, but had a low amp short, but high enough to blow fuses, but you never know why it was done in the first place.
The 110v florescent light operate behind a 5 amp fuse and in theory would blow when the machine was plugged in
if there was a direct short. If one of the florescent transformers where bad or going bad this might cause the main power supply to slowly burn out if the fuse was by passed. You can visually check transformers for leaking black residue, deformities or sometime you can sniff them out, but this is just old school trouble shooting.
You may consider this after everything is installed and tripled check. Start one fuse at a time, starting with the 110v fuse holder leaving the others empty and progress from there. Also probably disconnect the florescent lighting as it may be the problem. Then add one fuse at a time to see what happens and on which of the three circuits. If you can determined what circuit, then its just a matter of elimination by component or disconnecting and reconnecting plugs one at a time to narrow down the problem.
Good luck and waiting to hear what caused the problem.
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Thanks to all for the help so far. As promised, here are pics of the raw "wee beastie" herself. What do you think? I started cleaning it up last night after I took the pics and it is really going to sparkle. Multipurpose spray cleaner worked great on the general crud/dust all over the game, and Mean Green instantly cleaned up the tar/smoke residue in the case from cigarettes, cooking transformer, or both. Can't wait to hit it with the chrome polish I picked up from the auto store.
The bulb was $8 for the Phillips version at Home Depot. I bought it just-in-case, then bought four of the correct Sylvania bulbs on EBay for $12 including shipping. I'll return the Home Depot one later.
Looks like I need help with a couple more things before I get into the troubleshooting once the transformer arrives..
1) What do you guys use to clean up the goo in the hoppers? Can I soak it in Mean Green, clean, and let it dry off? What about lubrication?
2) I am missing what I believe is a Reset Key. Anything special about it? The lock assembly is there, just missing the key.
3) What am I missing from the top of the game? I thought it was just some kind of a sign that slid into the top housing, but I saw wiring going up to it when I pulled apart the top. I will need to find whatever it is. Any help there?
4) Dumb new guy question, but how do I remove the belly glass so I can look at the wiring and lights that go there. The transformers on the inside of the door have wires that go behind the belly glass panel. I could just start undoing screws, but some guidance would be appreciated before I end up accidentally taking the whole door apart!
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More pics
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More pics
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More pics
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Try this for the belly glass http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=1809.0 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=1809.0)
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Thanks ovenguy10!
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UPDATE!
Ovenguy10, you are my hero. The transformer and fuse holder showed up Friday. I expected them in a box with newspaper... it was great of you to screw the parts in to some wood to keep them safe! The post office was closed when I got there on Saturday, so they will probably be sending the letter out to you today.
I took the old transformer and fuse holder out, and took off the safety timer and hopper beau plug mounts out to clean that corner out. The timer assembly looked good. The hopper beau plug had two wires taped off together, not sure if that is normal without wiring color schematics. I attached a picture, blue/orange tied to red/white.
Ovenguy sent me the correct fuse holder bracket, with three fuse mounting holes. The old one had four. I found another surprise when I took apart the wires going to the old fuse holder assembly. From last inspection, it appeared that the 6v and 50v fuses were bypasses (missing) and the 120v was fused. Turns out the 120v was also bypassed.... someone had wrapped the fuse in aluminium foil and stuffed it into the holder. Under the yellow tape where one of the other voltages were supposed to be fused, the metal remains of an old fuse holder were still soldered to two of the wires, and the spliced in wire just wrapped around it. What a hack job!
I will solder the wires back together today and see what happens. I have to sort out which wire colors to go the fuse for 50v and 6v (the blue ones or the orange ones), but that should be easy once I meter the transformer taps.
I got on ebay and looked at all the slot machine parts to try to find the sign thing that goes on top of this slot, but had no luck. I might not have recognized it if I did. Is it called a marquee, topper, display sign, or something else? Is this something I will have a hard time finding? I did find someone selling reset locks so I ordered one of those.
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try CV slots he has some Marquis on his webpage a few months ago when I was looking there
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UPDATE!
I got the transformer and fuse holders put together (one of the new ones actually broke when I went to put a fuse in, but I had one old one so it worked out). I got the new fluorescent bulb for the reels, and put in a missing coin tray bulb. I fired it up with out the hopper and reel assembly installed, and no blown fuses. Reel bulb and belly bulb were working fine.
I got brave and added the reel and hopper units and gave it a go. Turned on great. It is a 3 line machine, and had no problem accepting 1, 2 and 3 coins and lighting up the appropriate top unit paylines. Pull the handle and the reels spin and stop with no problems.
Sadly, the game has at least three problems that I have to sort out and I would love your advice.
1) As soon as you put a coin in, the bell starts ringing. Adding the second and third coins do no change this condition. The ringing only stops when you pull the handle to start the reels spinning. The reset key doesn't stop the ringing after coins are added, only the pull. This is strange to me and I am not sure where to start looking.
2) The game blew my 8A solenoid fuse when it tried to pay me out on my first winning spin. The hopper successfully sent two coins to the coin tray, and that was it. The combination on the payline was bar-bar-bar, so I imagine something is seizing the hopper up. What should I look for?
3) There are bulbs around the perimeter of the head unit that I imagine are supposed to light up, but are not. The bulbs test good. These are not the payline bulbs (which work fine), they look like they light up the stars in the top glass.
I also had no success finding a topper for the game so far. I'd like to track down at least a picture so I know what the payouts are supposed to be. Any leads would be greatly appreciated!. In the top unit there are also two ballasts and starters like the ones for the florescent bulbs in the door. Does the topper use two bulbs? I have not disassembled everything there.
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Does this sound like a good lead for the bell ringing problem? The generic Bally EM manual on page 12 says that reel Mechanism switch C-2 "Completes a Jackpot Bell Circuit (6 V.) & some Games on "Insert Coin" lite circuit."
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UPDATE. Roslyn at CV Slots didn't have a topper that matched my machine (she has just the ones in the pics on their website), but she did me a huge favor and found one for sale for me on eBay. Thanks ovenguy and Roslyn for the help.
More importantly, I had some time to look into the three issues on my machine a little last night.
1) I was all set to start looking for the loose wire in my top feature unit for the general illumination missing lights, but stopped when I noticed that I couldn't remove the unit. In addition to the beau plug, there were maybe four wires hard wired in that would have to be cut to remove the unit. Seemed weird that there wasn't at least a molex connector. I also noticed that this unit doesn't slide in to steel tracks when inserted like the hopper and reel assembly do. Again, weird. I'll send pics when I get in to this later.
2) Didn't look into the bell yet.
3) Pulled the hopper out to see if I can figure out what went wrong. See the fuse pic to see exactly how wrong things went after getting through two coins of a payout! I noticed that there was quarter up near the top of the ring, and that it appeared tucked under the coin fence (? the triangle shaped piece of metal at the top of the hopper disc, with movement controlled by the override solenoid). This led me to look at the override solenoid and link assembly that are supposed to make it move (parts number 1 & 2 of the electrically stepped hopper unit, on page 108 & 109 of the em manual).
The movement of the plunger in and out of the solenoid felt like I was moving the arm through molasses, very gummy. It was so gummy that the spring that is supposed to pull the plunger back out was not effective. I can't imagine this is normal, and wonder if this is what might have caused my fuse to blow.
I am not sure what the override solenoid's job is. I did not notice any burns marks on it, so I am wondering if some old grease is mucking things up. The lubrication guide says to lube the override solenoid plunger with "Heavy Duty Hyrotex Lube #651". I will disassemble the thing and try to clean things up in there tonight, but what is the lube I should be using on it? Pics of the solenoid in regular and pushed in positions attached.
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Cool! Glad that was the right topper! There were so many different ones made, what's the chance!?! I believe we have the correct belly glass for that machine (dark blue with gold "Bally"), if you're looking to replace the one you have.
If you guys ever need any EM parts, let me know. I am scared to death of EMs. My husband LOVES them, and we have 70+ EM machines, plus loads of parts. I don't list the parts because I can't ID them! I need to conquer my fear I guess...
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The top feature light that go around the outer edge should only light up on the largest jackpot when it hit. The feature unit doesn't have guides like the hopper and reels. It just sets on those metal strips.
As for the Hopper, that solenoid is used to kick coins back into the hopper. Since that early style hopper didn't have a brake to stop the payout, that deflector would come out after the payouts reached, and prevents any over pays. It should not bind or stick..
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I agree Rosalie he does need to change that belly glass it looks tacky
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I agree Rosalie he does need to change that belly glass it looks tacky
That Pink, Yellow, and Red glass is :censored: ugly.. What was Bally thinking when they put those colors together :Scratch-Head: .. Nothing like the correct Belly glass to finish off a machine.. :dancing_2:
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We had a machine that had the pink/orange glass, but 3 matching pieces. I called it Pinky... :rotfl:
It actually wasn't a bad looking machine. Looked almost like it was glowing.
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I would not put any lube on that override solenoid. Clean it out with some spray solvent and blow lots of air into it. That should free it up.
The override solenoid serves the same purpose as the hopper motor brake (a later feature), in that after the last coin paid passes the coin out roller, then the override solenoid loses power and slams open thus knocking out any extra coins ready to enter the coin out roller area. It's a knock-off device, which was needed because the inertia of the hopper pinwheel often allowed for extra coins to payout. The spring on it allows that to happen quickly.
Sorry, I see Amechanic already has this explained above. Good job.
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UPDATE
Thanks for the wisdom! I took the override solenoid assembly off the hopper and cleaned the arm and link up. It moves great now. I actually took off the whole assembly off the hopper to do it. You guys would die laughing if you saw me spend a creative 1.5 hrs trying to get the solenoid back on the hopper... one screw/nut combo was a nightmare to get back together because of tight quarters. Thank god for scotch tape, open ended wrenches, glue sticks, and magnetic screwdrivers. Yeesh!
Anyway, feeling proud of my self for putting it back together and hoping my problem was solved, I am still blowing fuses during hopper payouts. These fuses are getting blown pretty bad. It will blow any time between no coins paid out and as many as 11. My best guess now is that the hopper vibration is making something short out. I still have the problem where the bell starts ringing after I deposit the first coin. Could these things be related? I am starting to get frustrated!
Thanks for clarifying the top feature flashing lights, makes sense now. I saw the "S" coil and the flasher bulb attached to it on the top feature unit wood. I thought the attendant service switch on the outside of the front door might be responsible for turning the flashing light on since my game doesn't have the "call attendant/jackpot" toper sticking up the top, just the marquise. Looks like that button I have on the front doesn't do anything... The parts diagram says I am supposed to have a switch attached to the back of the button...all I have are two taped off wires from the harness (pic attached).
On a side note: Thanks to you all for providing the resources and help to try to learn and figure this thing out. I have learned much already!
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My mistake
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Glad to see you got the feature unit out.. Those plugs can be stubborn to come apart. I like the spray mine with WD40.. You are going to want to make sure the male plugs clean.. I would inspect the operation of all your relays, and make sure the contacts are opening and closing. That goes for the ones on the hopper and reels.
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Have you followed out this link yet on checking for shorts?
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?PHPSESSID=50c4af44b4f070f7eb2b0c8a7c93675d&topic=17559.0 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?PHPSESSID=50c4af44b4f070f7eb2b0c8a7c93675d&topic=17559.0)
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Hi OldReno,
Thanks for all the info you have posted on here, it has been a great help.
I tried the procedure you listed when I first started trying to figure it out. I actually did find a door bulb shorting to the case at one point after my cleaning moved it a little from where it originally was. I will go through the whole procedure again now that I am a little more familiar with the game.
It appears that the short seems to happen only when the hopper is in the middle of running. It is too bad the 6 foot beau plug extensions on ebay are $175, else I could hook them up and know for sure if I am shorting to the case somewhere.
Do you know of any relay that might be directing the bell to go off as soon as a coin is deposited, and that shuts the bell off as soon as the handle is pulled? I can't find mention of the bell in the EM book.
Chris
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No new news on the short front. Did the OldReno tests again and everything seems fine. With the ohmmeter, two of the door test points came up o.f, one came up 32M ohms. I pulled the units out and will start checking them over. I did notice that a relay on the bottom front of the hopper had a blade bent down a lot... I will straighten it up a bit. Maybe vibration from the hopper during payouts was causing that relay to act screwy. That is tonight's project.
Some bad news... The belly glass that Roslyn though she had is black, not blue. Now that everyone has told me how tacky my pink belly is I will have to find the correct replacement :yes: . I found this one on ebay... Is it the right one for my game, and is the price robbery?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201362436038?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/201362436038?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Thanks!
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There is two ways to look at that glass.. One yes it's a little on the expensive end, but two trying to find vintage glass in nice condition it getting tough, and they are going up in price. I looked at those on EBay yesterday, and they look almost flawless. If you look at the picture of the back, it has maybe one or two small chips in the silver. I think you would be hard pressed to find a vintage Belly glass in much better shape. The seller did have two of those for sale, you could wait to see if they sell, they might relist at a lower price, but then you take a chance it sells, and is gone.
Gary
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I bought it. I hope it is the correct one for my game, can someone confirm that?
At least it was less than I paid for the machine. By $.50 :hissyfit:
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It should be, but they do come in different sizes. I don't remember seeing dementions in the ad. I'd measure yours then double check with the seller on size. I'm sure if its not correct they should work with you.
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UPDATE! PROGRESS! (Sort of...)
Went home from work last night determined to find my short. The OldReno door short tests again came up with nothing so I pulled the modules out and got to work.
The feature unit looked fine. I wiped a little dirt off the step-up coil's plunger and sprayed and wiped-off the male beau plug connector with WD40 per Amechanic's suggestion. Went back in much easier!
Looked over the hopper unit. Adjusted the top switch on the delay relay circuit right at the bottom front of the hopper assembly to make sure it wasn't accidentally making contact during hopper operations. Rest of the hopper looked OK.
Looked over the reel assembly. Checked the reel spin and noticed reel#1 was rubbing in one spot. Straightened it out. Wiper arms looked good. Switches looked good. Was all set to slide it back in when I noticed a big problem... ONE OF THE MALE BEAU PLUG PINS WAS BENT OVER!!!! Could this be the problem???? It must have bent during the module insertion by the previous owner, and then got bent over more when the lock levers were used to lock the assembly in place. I don't know how I missed this, but perhaps it is understandable when I have been pulling the unit out and putting it on the work table, looking at the front, top, left and right sides. With great excitement, I straightened out the pin and put the unit back in. I though for sure my troubles were at an end!
When I turned the game on, I was excited to see the coin in, line lighting, and reel spins all worked like they were supposed to. The bell ringing at coin insertion was gone!!!! That must have been caused by the bent over pin. The the game wants to play like it is supposed to so bad, but there are still a couple problems.
#1) I blew the 120v fuse a couple times. I also noticed that at one point the flourescent marquee bulb was flickering with handle pull vibration, but this has been an intermittent condition. There are two ballasts([big]NOT SURE WHY, ANY IDEAS?[/big]) mounted on the inside left wall where the reel unit slides in, and I think these power just the one marquee bulb up top. The wire insulation seems a little brittle on these, so hopefully I just need to replace the ballasts with ones with newer plastic insulated wire. Looking at the ballast on my coin door, I see that one had been replaced at some point already judging by the newer wire. I also noticed that one of the bulb holders (the part the two bulb prongs turns in to) for the marquee light has a chunk of its encasing plastic cracked off. It appeared still functional, but should probably be replaced. [big]Any idea where to find these? [/big]
#2) Here are the big problems. Still blowing the 50v fuse when the hopper goes to pay. Seems like two different things going on here.
I can add coins and spin reels, but every once in a while the hopper would seem to go off after only the first reel stopped spinning. This would happen when there was no symbol showing on the reel (blank). This was intermittent... could happen after 2 pulls or after 20 pulls. I am not sure what would cause this. Don't all the reels have to be stopped to open a payout circuit to get the hopper going?
The 2nd problem is that the hopper is sticking up somehow. Here are the symptoms. It starts going, and then after spitting out a small number of coins it seems to jam up? Fuse blows. When I pull it out to look, every time it appears that there is a coin wedged up under the pivot arm assembly next to the coin fence, almost as if it got stuck. I am not sure if this is normal operation. Do hoppers jam up at that point by the guide fence/coin kick out assembly/pivot arm and blow fuses? This happens when the game tries doing one of those mystery payouts (see the first part of problem #2 above), and when a legit payout circuit is in order. At this point, with the fuse blown, if I do the OldReno short checks with case ground and the three test points in the door, they all come back with resistance indicating a shorts. I buy the 50v short showing, but the light bulb circuit too? Weird.
On a positive note, while running coins through to test it game out, I did hit a bar-bar-bar combo, and the bell started ringing and the boarder lights on the feature unit started to go off. It looked impressive for about 2 seconds, then blew the fuse after spitting out only four coins.
Thanks everyone for your continued help! We are so close, I just know it!!!
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You might want to go thru your hoppers adjustments. Make sure that the hoppers coin wheels spinning free with no binding. Your hoppers gearbox could be your problem. They have grease in them, but after 40+ years it could be hardening up. I know some hopper gearboxes have a oil hole, as do the motors shafts.
Can you spin the motor shaft and turn the coin wheel? One of my first Bally E-Series had a seized up and was blowing fuses. You can bench test your hoppers motor, it is 110v. If it was a E-Series hopper you would have to disconnect and remove the hoppers curcuit board before testing the motor, to keep from damaging the curcuit board..
You mentioned random pays after reel 1.. I would check the location of your wiper fingers to the contacts to make sure the wiper is only contacting one contact at a time and not bridging two contacts. Your largest payout is usually the deepest cut on the indexing cams.
Keep us posted.
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My hopper disc turns, but not easily/loosely. It takes a little bit of force. So that will be tonight's project. I have had the ring and scoop assembly off to clean it out and wipe off the disc, and will now go further.
Can you give me 2 pieces of advice?
What is the correct order for taking the hopper apart? It looked like I would have to get the paywheel assembly out of the way to get a wrench on the bottom of the main hopper shaft to get the coin disc assembly out of the casing... Do I also crack open the motor gearboxes to get at those shafts?
What oil/grease do I need to use on the hopper gears and on the motor shafts?
Thanks!
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I start by removing the hopper bowl, screws, spring. Then the knife and other bolted or screwed on items. As for getting the coin wheel off I think it's just held in place but the center nut.
I like a product called zoom spout for oiling. It's a plastic bottle with a long tube you pull out if the bottle. You can reach deep into hard to reach places. I buy it in my local hardware store. I've even dripped it in the shaft of the gearbox and hand turned the hopper till it goes into the gearbox. The screw on the right side of the hopper bowl is an escentric used to adjust the gap between the coin wheel and bowl. Too tight it causes a bind, too loose you can get coins jammed. This is all covered in the manual under hoppers.
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Excellent advice from Amechanic.
You can test your hopper motor with two jumpers clipped onto the motor itself and plug in to 120V.
Let it run and look to see if it slows down or binds. Then find why and fix it.
If the hopper bearings are too tight that can have impact.
You're getting closer........
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Dumb question, probably, but better safe than sorry. These are the two hopper motor wires, right? I have a cut extension cord I've put alligator leads on so I can clip them on and plug it in.
And the gear box is accessible after I remove the coin disc, right?
Thanks!
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Yes the two wires are the place to hook up the power
The gear box is the box that the motor is attached to.
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PROJECT UPDATE
The belly glass showed up and fits like a glove. Looks like a completely different machine now, the blue is opaque so the only light coming through is through the red Bally logo. Looks great. I thought a prior owner had replaced the transformer at some point for the belly light. Turns out they changed the whole lighting arrangement in there. No bulb anymore, just two neat flat LED setups. I attached a picture, maybe this is a good alternative for those who don't like the original set up. This fuse thing has got me so irritated I was considering shelving this project, but seeing how good the machine looks now has me in till the hopefully-not bitter end.
Regarding the fuse blowing, no progress.
I took the hopper out, cleaned and lubed up the pivot arm assembly and step up arm. For lube I used gun oil. I also dripped a little gun oil into the motor shaft while hand turning it. I used an extension cord I accidentally cut in half this winter, an electrical switch I mounted in a handy box, and two alligator clips to make a switch on/off-able power supply for the motor and ran it to check for smooth operation of the hopper. I made one small adjustment to the coin fence. I ran hundreds of coins through the hopper to check for smooth operation and everything worked great.
I put the hopper back in, hoped for the best. The reels were set on bar - bar - bar from the last spin, so when I turned it on it immediately started trying to pay out. Got through 4 coins this time then blew a fuse. I had to buy more fuses last night so I will take the reels off a payout combination and see what happens. I did notice two things when cleaning up the hopper, maybe you guys can enlighten me.
1) The vertical reset pawl switch in the bottom of the hopper assembly, behind the payout circuit disk (On page 110, part #44) says it is supposed to be normally closed. When the reset pawl is actuated, it doesn't look like the switch is opening. It also looks a little bent, almost as if someone wanted it to stay closed all the time... I can't see how it would have been accidentally bent given where it is tucked away. Is this switch being closed all the time a bad thing? See pictures.
2) On page 108, the pivot arm assembly is showing having a torsion spring on the part diagram (#57). I don't have this spring. My switch assembly also looks different. I will send a picture of the set up later. Any source for the spring and switch assembly if I need to find them?
Thanks for the help!
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Sounds like your making progress on the machine.
With the machine on, in a none paying reel set up and the hopper out. What happens when you re-install the hopper, does it blow the fuse?
Or does the fuse blow during a payout?
Would like to see how the belly glass looks lit up. Please attach photo when you have a chance.
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I was wondering, but I don't think it's the problem. You hopper is 110v as is your lighting. Can you make sure you belly light are wired correct. Did they unhook the ballast used for the florescent bulb? Is it the 110V fuse you keep blowing or another, 5V, 50V? I have a thought.. Try running your machine in the dark and try to see if you can see a flash where your short might be. If you don't have extention cables, you can remove the screws holding your feature units front wood and lights. Lay it forward to see inside. Hopefully by doing this you can locate the problem.
I would also double check to make sure any plastic insulators are covering the leads.
The hopper contact you pictured, if I remember right should open up when the solenoid fires to return the hopper back to zero..
Keep us posted..
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Your pawl switch (above) is most probably running the winner paid light.
Put a piece of paper or matchbook in between and see how that effects it.
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OK, sounds like a hopper short of some kind, but I've been very wrong before, so no biggie.
With your voltOhmMeter, on Ohms, clip one lead onto a good metal part of your hopper (hopper out of machine, yes.)
Then with the other lead, check each and every hopper switch. You should have NO readings on any of the switches.
Inspect each switch carefully, actuate it, and look to see that No switch touches a leaf that it should not be touching, and that no switch ever touches to case.
I suspect your payout relay has a switch that is either touching case when it is energised, or touching another switch that it should not be.
Sometimes the paper insulators that were put between switches and or case get torn or missing, and then you have the switch touching something it should not be touching.
Remember, there are NO connections to ground in the Bally. All switches should be isolated from case.
Sometimes people put in a wire onto the coin lockout coil going to case to intentionally put in half a short in case someone drilled the machine and tried to cheat it.
If you find one, a wire screwed to case behind the coin acceptor, remove it.
Please find this problem, your killing me....
(kidding)
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UPDATE
OK, last night I came home to find my topper off ebay had arrived (that one hurt to buy even more than the $50 belly glass, it cost me over $70 after a minor bidding war). I figured I would start simply by just installing it and lighting up the machine so I could take a picture of how pretty it is.
Put the marquee on top, changed the reels to a non-payout combination to avoid any other hopper fuse blowing, and replaced the fuse that blew last time the hopper was going. This time the fuse was the 5A, 120v fuse. Turned the game on and wouldn't you know it, the top marquee bulb doesn't light now. It had been working, now no. The bulb up there was going through a period where it was flickering during handle pulls (vibration) but had been working.
I know I have one problem, one of the bulb holders had a partially cracked off casing (see pic) but it was working. I had put a piece of electrical tape over it to avoid any shorting, and it was up in the air working without the metal topper case over it when I was blowing fuses.
The ballasts in the belly were disconnected from the circuit, so no problem there. The ballasts for the top of the coin door and the topper are mounted in the case to the left of the reels (see pic). The bottom one runs the bulb in the top of the coin door and works like a champ. The top ballast runs the topper bulb.
Do ballasts fritz out a little over time, then die completely? I am unaware of how ballasts die. Is it possible that some internal problem with the ballast was killing my 120v fuse? Maybe one of the old dried up insulation ballast wires was causing a short? I don't think the wiring was bad because they were working up until last night.
I will have to sort out the topper bulb before I can continue on to clarify any hopper problems and the blowing of the 8a fuse. I still do not know if my cleaning/aligning of it took care of the problem at that end. I have attached pics of my hopper pivot arm assembly and knife.
The pivot arm pic shows where the torsion spring I am missing goes, and the weird switch set up.
So parts I have to track down:
pivot arm torsion spring
pivot arm switch assembly (maybe?)
fluorescent bulb holder
ballast
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Wow... That's weird.. I've never seen a switch on a hopper in that location. You are grounding that lower contact to the roller lever. I would remove that contact from its location and figure a way to keep it out of the way, then try your hopper again. The only was for that not to cause a shot would be if there was a card board insulator under that lower contact between it and thee lever. Can you take pictures of the hopper and switch from a different angles and show us where those wires go?
I guess you could just put a piece of black tape under the lower contact as an insulator and see if it blow another fuse. But to me that looks like your problem!!
Gary
PS. I have the spring and socket
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Will do. I'll take more pictures tonight and post them tomorrow.
That switch does seem weird! Especially the way the housing is covered in tape to keep it from rubbing against the case of the machine when the hopper is inserted in the cabinet... there is very little clearance when it is in there.
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This is a great thread! I am a novice compared to most. Early on after getting quite confused by all of great advice from the list I went old school. The advice was right on I simply did not know the names of the parts, and still dont, so I got confused.
I turned off all of the lights and created a completely dark condition. With my little flashing in hand, I created a condition that previously created a short. FLASH! I saw a spark that caused the short! When I turned on the lights I was able to go right to the source and correct it in seconds. Its been many many years so I dont remember what it was but this method did the trick.
Dont give up!
Ra
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Your picture, pivot arm assembly shows a switch touching bare metal.
Your hopper is a mechanically stepped hopper, it does not require a switch to count coins, as that is done by the mechanical linkage that steps up the payboard.
Please, bend or remove that switch out of the way and then try it again.
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Chris if you look at page 104 of your manual you will see there is no spring on that step up assembly right there it is only on the electric step up not the mechanical stuff up do not need that spring
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and I think old Reno is Right cut the wires to that switch remove it tape the wires off and see what happens I have hundred of hoppers at my house and I don't have any like that
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I thought he wanted the return spring for the coin kicker.. My bad.. You have a spring in the down link at the back of the coin roller lever. As I said earlier get rid of that contact. It has to be your short to ground. Every time a coin how out its causing a short to ground.
Gary
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Gary he wanted the spring on page 108 part number 57 of which is the return spring for the new style electric count up
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excuse me tension spring
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Yea I figured that out. I just wanted him to realize there is a spring on the link connecting to the coin lever.
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This is a pic of the cracked marquee socket
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UPDATE
The mystery switch may indeed be my problem...
I didn't have time to do much yesterday other than some quick metering and picture taking. I was off trying to find a single bulb ballast for the marquee light with no success (tried Home Depot and and a local electric/lighting supplier)- they only had the much larger double bulb ballast for this size bulb, and even then I would have to take apart an existing fixture to get it. Then got home ready to fix the switch only to find a 100 ft tall, 150 year old beech tree had came down from high winds/storm and went through the roof of my house. What a nightmare...
I though about your posts and that switch could be causing all my troubles. I would blow either the 50v or 120v fuse during hopper operation, after seemingly random numbers of coins were paid out, but always only a few. I though the fuses would blow the second that a short occurred, but maybe they lasted a little longer than usual because the switch was only shorting things for the briefest of seconds, when a coin went under that roller.
After it would blow a fuse, I would find that the OldReno coin door shorts tests came up positive (coils/switch/bulb). When I pulled the hopper out, no short. When I pulled the hopper out and pulled the coin out from under that pivot arm roller, replaced the fuse, and tested again, no short. So last night I checked for shorts if that switch was manually activated without power and sure enough, it shorts.
Here are the pictures of the switch and the wiring trail. The switches two orange wires loop under the pivot arm assemble, behind/under the coin bucket assembly, and connect to the payout relay. One of the wires looks like it was added to the top right relay switch. The other cloth-insulated orange wire is spliced into an orange wire that connects to one of the leads of the payout relay coil.
Now that I see it, this switch was definitely an aftermarket addition! I have no idea what the purpose of it would have been, unless there is a defective switch under the hopper that the pivot arm is supposed to throw but is defective. Maybe it was too much work to take everything apart and fix it the right way (remember the string of Christmas lights in my coin door?). Is there a switch down under there that has an orange wire going to the payout relay coil and another wire going to the right side of the payout relay switches? Looks like those switches are all chained together. I will cut it out the mystery switch later and see what happens.
And thanks for the clarification, I was looking at the electrically stepped hopper diagram. I do have the mechanical one, so no pivot arm torsion spring.
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One other thing I would do is to remove that cover over the payout relay. It looks like the coins power lead wire could be grounding to the cover, (look at lower pic above)..
You can run the machine without that cover.
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UPDATE: Serious Progress!!!!
Turns out that mystery switch was causing the fuse blowing problem. I removed it, put in my LAST OF THE 14 8A FUSES I BOUGHT
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<not sure why an incomplete message got posted...>
Put in my last 8A fuse (I bought out the entire supplies of two local electrical distributors here), said a prayer, put some coins in, and
VOILA! :applause: [size=78%]No more blown fuses from the hopper! My daughters tested it for about 30 minutes and the short problem appears to be solved. The previous owner must have removed the fuse protection because of this switch, and because it must not have been causing a problem. Until a real serious short appeared and cooked the transformer! Great catch, guys!!![/size]
No we just need to do a little refining to get it going 100%. Here is the list of existing problems as I see them:
Minor problems:
Marquee bulb holder needs replacing
Marquee ballast appears bad (was working but flickering with vibration, wiring checks out, bulb is new, tried with the old and a new starter). Amechanic is looking to see if he has the parts for me.
Bigger problems:
Random payouts - When the first reel stops, at random times (not on every spin), always with a blank on the first reel center line, the hopper pays out a small, random amount of coins. This process starts when the other two reels are still spinning. I will take a picture of my reel wipers when it is in one of the error payout positions so we can see what needs to be adjusted.
Over pay - Bar Bar Bar combo is supposed to pay out 20 coins. I hit it once and it paid me 25. My girls hit it a couple times, but scooped the coins out before I could count them.
Handle lock up - After the girls played for 30 minutes, the handle started acting weird. They put a coin in, handle released fine, pulled down, but it seemed to get stuck once it got all the way down. Takes pushing down/jiggling to get it back up to start the spin. What needs adjusting? This condition is still present.
Feature lights - When are the feature lights around the payline lights in the top unit supposed to flash? At any payout (like the lowest payout, 20 coins for barbarbar)? My lights are not flashing.
Feature lights - Beau plug connection in the top is loose. The paylines light up, but the bulbs are bright or dim depending on if I am pushing in/ lifting up on the feature unit. Is there a "right way" to correct this?
Thanks again!!!!! I will post whole machine pics once I get the topper light up and running.
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Glad to hear we are finally making progress.. :applause: Now lets try to address a few smaller problems..
First... I need to get my :PiggyBum: outside and find those ballast and light socket..
Second your handle problem, I think it's one of two problems.. 1st oil your gearbox that your handles is attached to, the main cross shaft could be dry. Remove the reels and try the handle.. Hold the lever on the top of the gearbox and pull the handle, is it stiff? To release the handle, push down on the flat release lever sticking out the back of the gearbox. Have a hold of the handle so it doesn't slam back up and possibly hit your in the head. :WeirdEyes: Next I would remove the white air cylinder on the right side of the reels.. Inside you will find whats left on a rubber seal.. They turn sticky or tar like after 40 years of use.. Clean up all sticky rubber/tar from the plunger and inside the cylinder.. Now what I do is to apply just a very small amount of a light grease to the piston and inside the cylinder, and I meen a small amount... If you use too much it will squirt out of the air hole in the bottom of the air cylinder and all over the back wall of your machine, I learned the hard way... There is no original seal for the piston, but someone has found one that can be modified to work by cutting out the center of a wheel cylinder. You can find that post here on NLG.. If you do use just grease, remember to hold on to the handle after you spin the reels, because if you let go it will slam back to the upright position. I hold on to the handle till it's back into the upright position.. If you go with buying and modifying the wheel cylinder, the handle will return slowly as new.. In all my machines I've repaired, I've just used grease..
Your outer ring of lights on your feature unit should only light on your machines largest jackpot..
Last is the feature unit dimming light.. Your going to need to try cleaning the beau plugs contacts on the male plug. A small wire brush or a scotch bright pad works.. I have taken a very worn out emery-board for filing nails, and cut it down to fit into the female beau plugs sockets to clean them.. I spray the WD40 on the female plug then slide the cut down emery-board in and out of each connector 3-4 time.. When your finished I do one of two thing next.. If I have contact cleaner I will now spray down the female beau plug and the male plug, then use compressed air to blow it dry.. I have done the same with rubbing alcohol, I have a spray bottle with with rubbing alcohol in it, spray down the plug and dry.. If you use the rubbing alcohol make sure everything is dry before putting it back together.. cleaning the beau plugs should fix this problem, if not you can try giving the male plugs a small twist, but not too much and be careful, you can break one or crack the beau plug..
Gary
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UPDATE
While the cleaning progresses and I wait for parts, I did a little more research into the random payouts when reel 1 stops on a blank.
I played the game until the machine had a random payout, then pulled the reel assembly out and marked on the first reel's disk where the contacts were when it paid. I put the reels assembly back in, played until I got another random pay, and sure enough, the position on reel one was the same.
Here are pictures of the wiper arms on reel one in the pay-on-blank position. Do you guys see anything here that I don't? It can't be coincidence that the random paying starts as soon as this first reel indexes in this position. Where should I be looking?
Thanks!
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Some ballys have a feature where the hopper mixes itself to ensure it does not jam up from coins getting clumped together. This is especially true on machines with infrequent pays....
Does it payout then, or just does the hopper start turning to mix coins in the bowl?
Generally this only works about as long as the fan is spinning and one of your C switches closes (or opens)
You can push back on the variator above the clock to test it again with it on the pay.
Have you checked this troubleshooting guide -- http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=19336.0 (http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=19336.0)
It may give you help with your reel wipers alignment...?
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OK... I went back and looked at the pictures of this machine.. It looks to be a JPO, jack pot only machine.. This would explain your first reel question.. As OldReno said these try of machines will stir the hopper but do not pay out at that time.. This happens when the first reel stops in a certain position, the hopper cycles for a couple seconds then shuts off, BUT it should payout any coins..
Gary
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Oh boy. I wonder why this baby is spitting out coins in that first reel position. And the number of coins is random. 2, 3, 4 are common payouts.
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This is where the extension cables come in handy, that way you can watch the hopper or feature units work outside of the machine.. I have had all 3 pieces out on a table before when testing..
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Look on Page 108 of your Bally EM manual, and then note if the coin kicker (part #5) is pulling in or not during these 1st reel payouts.
If it is NOT pulling in, then it is out of adjustment, and that is your problem. This over-ride solenoid assembly is what keeps coins from coming out during hopper mix, and also it is there to prevent overpays at the end of a payout. It loses power and snaps open the blade which knocks off spare coins that are trying to exit the hopper due to the inertia of the hopper pinwheel (disc) moving after it loses power.
If it is pulling in, then you need to find out why it is during a reel mix (which is apparently what is happening)
Note that the machine should NOT start any pays untill all of your C switches on the reel mech are closed.
You could try insulating each of your C switches to see if one of them is making this all happen.
How many different symbols are on your reel strips?
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UPDATE:
I am hoping someone can send me a set of beau plugs for the hopper so I can follow the OldReno advice above with the over pays.
The holiday weekend set the project back a little, but I did manage to rebuild the air piston on my machine. I found the other thread about it on here, but since this is turning into a pictorial guide for Bally EM newbies, I figure I would document what I did.
Ordered u-cup seal 5-pack from McMaster-Carr on line, part number 9691K53, for $4.23. With shipping it came to $10.70
Pulled my air cylinder apart and the tube was clean/rubber looked good (pic 1)
Until I touched it...tarry-gum wad (pic 2)
I used mini-nippers to trim back the middle of the seal, and trimmed little by little until I got to the point where I could use a screw driver to slide it on the piston (pic 3)
Put it on. Looks like new (pic 4) I lubed the tube up with blue wheel bearing grease with the piston inserted fully into the tube. Before I did that, I put a few drops of gun oil into the end of the tube, because the blue grease would plug the air escape hole. This is what the manual says to do as well.
Light parts should be coming soon, handle still catches at little at the bottom of a pull before releasing, anyone have beau plugs?
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I'm sorry about that I thought you resolved the problem I will go to the post office right now and put those in the mail
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When you say your looking for beau plugs, do you mean extention cables or just the plugs? What size do you need, there are 18 pin, 24, and 30 pin. I just found another light socket to replace the one that the wire came out here when packing it up.
Gary
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Chris.. I tried to send you a PM, but it bounced back say mail box is full. PM me ASAP. I have your parts and ext. cables.
Gary
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That's a brilliant fix for the pump air plunger...
Thanks, looks just like the new ones did.
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Clk71 I'm just hoping you're okay I haven't seen anything posted on this machine in a while did you get that set of plugs I mailed you
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It is amazing that after 35 years since the last EM was produced, parts are still available in one form or another. These EM's can last forever!