New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Phan000 on December 26, 2021, 08:24:48 PM
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Got an Bally super continental in shockingly nice (inside condition).
No gunk, already adjusted, fresh lube on steppers.
Anyhow, I don’t get hot to add operator credits. If I manually add them on the counter, they are playable.
The key was missing for the topmost side lock. I put in a new tumbler set, and
Can make the roller push up on that switch. No credits added however…
Very interesting machine & super fun to play.
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according to the schematic, there isn't a way to add credits to the replay register except by winning them.
if you're in replay mode and manually close the payout relay on the insert panel, that would run the odds motor and add credits.
the top key may be the "jackpot release key sw" ... got orange/green and white/green wires on it? If yes, it powers the reset relay, which keeps itself powered and runs the odds motor until the credits are zeroed.
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Yes wolf, it appears that switch fits your description and is a jackpot reset.
Any clue how replays are won? I don’t see them on the pay table. The 14 credits on that counter were manually added.
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in replay mode the wins are accumulated on the replay register instead of the game paying in coins.
if you run out of credits on the replay register, you have to put in coins.
some games had a button that let the player cash out their credits, others you had to have an attendant pay you and they removed the credits via the key.
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I read on an old thread that replay mode is enabled by a switch/key on lower right side. Is this correct?
It appears that this was removed on this machine. There is a massive wire bundle that comes out of the bottom beau plug. It is not connected to anything.
Would it be possible to replace this replay switch?
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the hard part would be finding/making the bracket to hold the switch stacks.
this thread has a pic of what the assembly looks like - huge switch stacks on a metal mounting bracket:
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=25288.20 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=25288.20)
if you can't find/make the bracket, you could use molex plugs to jumper the appropriate wires together. e.g. male half of plugs attach to wiring harness wires, female side is just loops of wire connecting two male pins together per loop. Wire both male sides so the same female works for each and make one female which you move between the males to select coin or credit mode.
bally used the molex plugs on some later games in to change the game configuration - mostly for selecting 120V vs. 220/240V operation.
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Posted awhile ago. and link also. http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=25288.msg133962#msg133962 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=25288.msg133962#msg133962)
Richard
"Thanks to another member here, I have a service manual that covers models 891-0 through 891-4.
What I know:
891 - Credits only; the game does not pay out in coins, ever. There's no payout tray.
891-1 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine locks up for hand pay at 400 coins regardless of mode. Counter never used in coin mode.
891-2 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds all wins to counter without lockup even in coin mode; player can then cash out or play credits. Game pays out completely, right up to the 1500 coin limit (or hopper capacity.)
891-3 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds wins up to 300 to the counter even in coin mode. Customer can choose payout or play credits. Machine locks up for hand pay on wins of 400 or more.
891-4 - Unit for Sweden that handled tokens or Kroner
Document outlining above in detail attached for those who might care.
There are other variations of the game between 891-4 and the 891-20 and I now know of variations as high as 891-23. The manual didn't cover those, so .... ??? ?
Still need an 891-20 schematic...."
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you can find the 1100 manual on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/
891-1 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine locks up for hand pay at 400 coins regardless of mode. Counter never used in coin mode.
891-3 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds wins up to 300 to the counter even in coin mode. Customer can choose payout or play credits. Machine locks up for hand pay on wins of 400 or more.
I'm not sure you've got the hand pay rules right. I don't think the game locks up in credit/replay mode on an 891-1. Haven't looked at an 891-3 schem ... don't think I have one.
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Thanks for the help. I’ll probably leave as is for time being and hopefully put a molex jump as suggested later.
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Revisiting this machine again, and the no credit function.
Having another super-continental at my house for a bit made me want to fix this credit mode issue.
The machine that I repaired does not have a key option to switch between credit and cash, though it does accept coins. It has a button on the front to collect winnings.
I was thinking of looking on Amazon for a 20 wire switch terminal, and cutting a hole for a push button or flip switch.
I can’t envision finding the original part, and constructing one of blade switches seems a bit daunting.
Wolf, if I made a switch with molex, would I have to manually switch the molex inside the machine to change from credit to cash?
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Wolf, if I made a switch with molex, would I have to manually switch the molex inside the machine to change from credit to cash?
yup!
'course, once you pick a mode, you probably won't change it often (or ever).
did you email KLAR and see if they had the part?
if you had to make one, it probably wouldn't be too hard. A metal plate, a bunch of switches scrounged off slot/pinball/bingo machines or bought new, threaded rod like essmeier used and a lock.
there's various right angle switch mounting brackets used in pinball if you didn't want to bend or fabricate that part, tho getting something that lined up with the lock bar could be a problem. May be easier to just use a piece of right angle and drill holes where you need. Don't even need to tap threads if you use nuts on both ends of the rod pieces.
I'm pretty sure I have a schematic that shows how a collect button works. The basic idea is instead of using motor cam switches to decrement the replay register, the collect button turns on the hopper and the coin eject roller switches decrement the replay register.
the 891-1 already has the reset relay but the payout counter may be mechanically stepped in coin mode, so no roller switches? If so, that's another problem that would need to be handled ... probably most easily by making the payout counter electrically stepped only (remove the mechanical linkage) ... but you'd need the roller switch setup to step the payout counter in coin mode.
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I emailed Klar, no word yet.
Could I just rewire the existing setup for credit only?
how would I create a collect button?
I
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yup you could change the wiring to make it credit play. It still takes coins when you are out of credits.
for a collect button, I think the 891-8 was a credit-only game with a collect button. You could wire your game like that. I need to get the schematic cleaned up and posted on the bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ web site.
the problem would be the mechanically stepped payout counter. Some games of that era used a mechanically AND electrically stepped payout counter. Mechanical via the coin out roller in coin mode, electrical via score motor cams in credit mode.
you have machines with electrically stepped payout counters so you can see how the switches are mounted on top of the hopper so the coin out roller arm toggles them? You may have to do a little rigging to make the mechanical roller arm operate a switch stack or microswitch instead of the linkage to the payout counter, but it should be possible without needing to replace the roller arm.
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Would it be easier to install a switch that would add credits and leave the rest as is?
If I manually add credits, the button does function and allow play.
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you could.
you'd have to make sure the payout counter isn't stepping up or you limit the number of credits that can be added to 200 or less.
one way around that is make the replay button work when there's no credits.
on the back of the replay register there's a couple SPDT switches. One of them has white/brown wire 56-3 on the middle/moving blade. If you jumper that wire to black/red wire 81-3 on one of the mating switch blades, then the replay button will work even when the register is 0000.
if all you do is add that jumper, then the game will still accept coins when the register is 0000 and reject them if the register is non-zero.
it's then up to you whether to wire the game for credit pay or coin pay.
if you don't want the game on free play but want a secret button that adds credits, the easiest way may be to have the button just power a trace on the replay counter and let the game may a payout to add the credits. It'll need to be in credit mode tho.
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you could.
you'd have to make sure the payout counter isn't stepping up or you limit the number of credits that can be added to 200 or less.
What wires would I jump to the payout counter to test this? I
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the issue is IF you use the score motor cams to add credits somehow, the replay register step-up coil is usually connected to the payout counter step-up coil.
the payout counter can only physically step up somewhere around 250 times before the torsion spring will be so tight it won't step more. Stressing the spring isn't healthy for long term reliability.
if you were in coin pay mode, you could just disconnect the payout counter step-up coil. It steps mechanically in coin mode.
assuming you want to be in credit pay mode, the easy thing is make the machine free play ... the replay button works whether you have credits or not.
if you want something more complicated ... e.g. push a button and X number of credits get added ... it's probably easiest to make the button complete a win circuit and let the game pay.
you should not connect a button directly to the replay register step-up coil so a credit is added for every button push ... unless it's a momentary style button. A regular button would be a problem if someone held it closed.
so ... how do you want the game to work?
1] credit or coin pay?
2] free play or special button adds credits?
3] if special button adds credits, unlimited credit add or a button push adds X credits
4] if a button push adds X credits, should it work when there's already credits or is it only enabled when the register is 0000
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1. Coin mode or credit with a cash out.
I
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you already have a game that is coin mode or credit mode ... you're just missing the key switch that flips between modes.
when the game is in credit mode, you have to deposit coins when the register is 0000. Is that what you want?
you've mentioned adding credits via a button ... if you added that it changes how other things can be done.
the 891-2 paid all wins onto the replay register, then if a player pushed the collect button, the game paid out the coins. If it ran out of coins, it shuts down waiting for a fill then continues dumping out coins after coins are added to the hopper. Because all wins went to the replay register, the game never did a jackpot lockup (jackpot lockups happen when a win is too big to be handled by the payout counter).
I don't have a 891-2 schematic, but I have an 891-8 and it looks like the same payout scheme as the 891-2 ... and it's a lot simpler than other versions of the 891 that do jackpot lockup. You could convert your game to that style pay, but you need to disconnect the mechanical linkage to the payout counter and add a switch that detects when a coin is ejected to make the collect button work.
the added switch is the standard redundant switch stack on top of the hopper used on all electrically stepped payout counter games.
whatever you do, the thing that has to be avoided is making the payout counter step more than 200 times.
[update] - the 891-8 paperwork is now on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/
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My posts keep getting cut to pieces.
I jumped the spdt switch and it works great as a free play button.
I looked again at the loose bundle and am
Not totally sure how to go about creating a molex. Would I be switching from that loose bundle to the wires connected to the beau plug?
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(https://i.imgur.com/Q6UQ03m.jpg)[](https://i.imgur.com/6950GCW.jpg)
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any quick disconnect kind of connector will work, so what you can get easily is the biggest factor. I'd make sure it could handle at least 5 amps per pin. Higher doesn't hurt.
the game originally had eight NO switches on each side of the bracket, so you'd want two 16 pin female housings and one 16 pin male housing (or vice-versa), a crimping tool, and some extra pins for the oopses when crimping. Maybe easiest to just get two 16 pin kits and you'll have lots of extra pins.
something like these:
https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Connector-Waterproof-Position-Assurance/dp/B07HHW1D98 (https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Connector-Waterproof-Position-Assurance/dp/B07HHW1D98)
https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Circuit-Receptacle-Terminals-Mini-Fit/dp/B079CVL5H5 (https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Circuit-Receptacle-Terminals-Mini-Fit/dp/B079CVL5H5)
oops ... looks like the payout side has 9 switches .... so multiple standard molex plugs is probably easier.
if you put the game wires into female housings, the idea is you take a pair of wires that would normally go on a switch and put them into two positions in the housing. The male plug you'd just have a wire loop connecting those two pins together.
when you wanted to switch game modes, you move the male plug from one female socket to the other one.
you could use a pair of pin connectors that just tied the correct wires together (i.e. the connectors take the place of switch contacts) ... however, if someone connected both sets at the same time, you'd probably blow fuses. By using a 16 pin connector, you can't screw up ... you have to transfer the plug from one socket to the other to switch modes.
make sure whatever connector you pick you can get a crimper that works for it ... but not the molex one unless you have a bucket of cash you don't want :-) I like the ratcheting style that crimps both tab sets at the same time because I'm lazy. The generic crimpers are usually around $22.
the typical molex connectors used in the bally slots use the 0.093 series 1189 or 1380 pins. Unfortunately, the largest housing is 15 pins. Again you could use sets of 8 pin ones, but you'd probably want different color housings so the jumper plug was inserted into two sockets of the same color.
might be worth contacting essmeier from the other topic and see what it cost him to make his setup. He might have an idea for the bracket also.
also keep in mind if you make the game work like a 891-1, there's no cash out when in credit mode. The way it was cashed out was hand pay and the attendant reset the credits using a key.
having said all that, I'd probably either convert it to the 891-2/8 style of play or just hardwire the game to credit play and make it free play. Dropping in six coins before each spin gets old. You have other machines so you can get your hands dirty and make coin payout noise when you want, right?
how much of that made no sense? :-)
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That makes it very clear and seems pretty doable.
So it is just a matter of separating the matching colors from each of the bundles in that photo, and building the connections.
I really appreciate your in depth responses. Yes putting 6 quarters in gets a bit old. I played it way more just with the temporary addition of the free play credit button
Thanks again.
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So it is just a matter of separating the matching colors from each of the bundles in that photo, and building the connections.
hmmm ... matching as in "the same color" ... or matching as in "matching what the schematic says"?
I assume one bundle went to the left set of switches, the other bundle went to the right. They need to stay separated, tho in some cases the same wire goes to both sets of switches. If you do one bundle at a time, it should be pretty quick.
if you do go with a connector, putting two wires on one pin is not ideal unless the pin is made for it (the tabs are tall enough to wrap around two wires correctly). If the pins were designed for one wire ... at least at the lowest gauge the pin supports ... it's better to connect two wire segments together in a way that leaves a single wire tail that goes to the pin.
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Ok, definitely will use schematic.
I looked at the one for the 891-1 molex on bingo and
Dont see the label for the bank of switches
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the molex schematic is harder to read ... I'd use the other one.
the switches are in the hexagon symbols. There's "payout key sw" and "replay key sw".
one wire bundle should be the payout ones, the other bundle the replay ones.
I got curious to see if there's a wire color issue, so these are the switches:
payout (9 switches)
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| 40-5 | | 23-3 |
| 52-2 | | 31-2 (updated) |
| 30 | | 57 |
| 21-3 | | 91-3 |
| 63-1 | | 43-4 |
| 65-1 | | 74-5 |
| 53 | | 56-8 |
| 93-2 | | 80-3 |
| 30 | | 27-3 (update #2) |
replay (8 switches)
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| 30 | | 71 |
| 91-2 | | 38 |
| 10-3 | | 85-3 |
| 83-5 | | 58-3 |
| 43-4 | | 25 |
| 93-2 | | 54 |
| 53 | | 75 |
| 65-1 | | 81 |
same wire in both switch sets for a few wires. The only different-but-same-color wire that I see is 91-2 and 91-3. One is in the 6V circuit, the other in the 50V circuit. If you somehow had all the wires loose, you'd want to make sure which is which.
91-3 should be a single wire. 91-2 MAY be a double wire (3+ points connected by the wire). There's no way to know from the schem, but it seems unlikely the key switch would be the place the wire daisy chains elsewhere.
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That helps a bunch. Thanks wolf.
I unwrapped both bundles.
One bundle has 16 wires and all are not connected. Assuming this is the replay bundle.
There is also a loop of 70 and 60 wires that come from the main bundle.
The other bundle appears to be the working coin wires. They have paired multiple wires with different colored ones.
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(https://i.imgur.com/ITx7LG9.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/7bZ4lHG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RXabACH.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/tL14zWO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HrA7g7o.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/gf9tCBv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pxoRfCw.jpg)
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the bundle closest to the door is the replay bundle ... it's got the 54 wire in it.
looks like my 891-1 schem has an issue.
in the payout bundle, you have a 52 connecting to a 31 wire. The molex version of the schem says that is 52-2 to 31-2.
the non-molex version says 52-2 to 61-2, tho the 6 is hand-written. I think someone tried to fix a faded number and goofed ... especially since there's no 61 wire in the bundle that I can see. I'll fix the non-molex version of the schem and have updated the previous post.
btw, the molex plugs going to the key switches let the factory make the switch assembly elsewhere and plug it into the machine. You could use 12 pin molex plugs and wire them like the molex schematic shows, but you'd have to make two different jumper harnesses to connect the wires together for the replay vs payout modes since the wires that need to be connected aren't in the same plug positions. The only benefit of doing this is if you ever found the switch assembly with molex plugs on it, you could plug it in. Not likely.
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I connected the replay wires with wire nuts according to the numbers above.
Now it adds credit, and does not pay coins. Very cool!
Top key erases the credits probably.
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Also, with the bigger gauge wire sets, what would be the best way to get them into the pins? Can they be tied, then a single wire feeding the molex pin?
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Also, with the bigger gauge wire sets, what would be the best way to get them into the pins? Can they be tied, then a single wire feeding the molex pin?
that's what I usually do. The cleanest thing is attach a pin to the end of wire segment #1, then cut out a ring of insulation a couple cm back from the pin. Wrap and solder the wire end #2 there and heat shrink tube over the splice.
make sense?
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Finished up the molex conversion. Ended up having to use a few 6pin connections that I had already. The newer ones that I bought on Amazon had tiny, cheap, unusable pins.
I will paint and label the connectors so as to avoid confusion.
Only outstanding issue is that the hopper spins the whole time while the reels spin in coin mode. Not really sure if this is an issue, pays out correctly. I don
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Only outstanding issue is that the hopper spins the whole time while the reels spin in coin mode.
schematic says that's right. When reel mech B-1 switch is closed, the hopper mixer relay powers and churns the coins in the hopper to keep them leveled.
the hopper mixer relay also powers when an odds motor switch and odds follower relay switch are closed at the same time.
running the hopper on every spin seems a bit excessive. Usually they ran it when the reels stopped on certain non-paying combinations, and typically even that was only on lightning games that paid less often.
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Suddenly this machine is not multiplying wins.
It steps up correctly, but odds follower does not move.
When I push the odds follower relay, it pumps out coins.
How do I address this issue?
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a good first test is to manually step up the payout counter when you don't have a win and see if the safety relay powers and the odds follower relay powers. Depending on which/neither, that'll narrow down the issue.
tmi
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there's a payout counter reset arm switch that sits above the pawls on the payout counter. Should have orange/red and brown/red wires on it.
when the payout counter is reset, the pawls are locked above the ratchet teeth and the switch should be open.
as soon as the payout counter steps once, the pawls flop down on the ratchet teeth and the switch should be closed. Nothing else happens immediately since the payout relay (hopper) is powered.
when the first round of payout completes, the payout relay unpowers and the safety relay should power. That in turn should power the odds follower relay which steps up the odds follower unit.
other stuff happens after that, but sounds like that works.
schem is below, and you can see other switches in the circuit that if not working will cause a problem.
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Manual step up of payout counter did not power the safety or odds follower.
It was working perfectly, then I switched jumpers back to coin, instead of credit.
Kind of freaked when it stopped working correctly and cut out all the molex and hard wired it again.
This did not help.
There was a bit of oil on the switches that you mentioned so I cleaned them, and may have missed adjusted. Photos attached.
I noticed that a coil on the back left of the hopper as a very nasty looking Solder/melty issue.
Photo attached as well. Would this be the culprit ? Right now the machine only pays if I manually reset the payoff counter.
(https://i.imgur.com/yrh6L2J.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SBfA3nB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OuyBUa7.jpg)
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when you did the test, the odds were at least 2x, right (odds unit stepped up at least once)?
the test of manually stepping the payout counter once not powering the safety relay tells you the problem is getting the safety relay to power.
I'd just use a voltmeter. Stick one probe on orange wire 70 on any handy 50V coil and probe along the yellow highlight path to the safety relay coil looking for where the 50V drops when the game is doing nothing and the payout counter is stepped up once.
there's plug connections in places also, but I'd start by verifying 50V at the places easy to get to ... wire 18 on the odds follower unit and 61-2 on the odds reset relay switches.
if the payout counter isn't resetting, check the zero switch in front of the spiral cam on the wiper side of the unit. It needs to be closed ... ideally on the first step of the unit and open at reset. It's a little finicky to get right since the long blade doesn't move a large distance.
tmi
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the coil in your pic is payout relay #1 (hopper).
the messy lug is a coil wire repair. The coil wire burnt or broke, so someone unwrapped a turn of wire from the coil (note the horizontal cut through the coil wrapper caused by unlooping the wire once).
repairing a coil like that is fine, but the trick is removing the insulating varnish so you can reattach the wire to the lug. The easiest way is to use a knife/razor edge to scrape off the varnish. Put the wire end on a flat surface, scrape gently and you'll see shiny copper, roll the wire over a little and repeat until you have most of the varnish off all the way around, then solder will adhere and you can reattach.
someone didn't do a great job removing the varnish so they heated the coil lug a lot, melting the plastic and globbing on solder. It must work tho or the hopper wouldn't turn on.
note also you have a 50-50 chance of being able to repair a coil this way. You can repair the wire on the outside of the coil, but the wire end on the other lug dives into the inside of the coil and you can't unwrap a turn ... you'd have to unwind the entire wire and rewind it. Possible, but it you want to attempt it it's best to unwind the wire onto another spool of some kind then rewind it back on.
removing the molex plugs shouldn't do anything, and kinda made things worse since you've changed more stuff :-) Assuming you did it right and the solder connections are all good tho, you're back to finding the poor connection in the circuit to the safety relay coil.
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I’ve not found any bad connections yet. Not great with schematics.
So I am supposed to connect one end to any orange wire on a coil, to a multi tester, then step up with coins and manually push payout counter?
Is it possible to experiment with a jumper?
None of the wires in that yellow path seem powered.
I also noticed that when step up offs and manually step
Up odds follower, it does not change payoffs.
I did double check all of the wires on the coin harness.
This all started when I switched from credit to coin.
After moving the jumpers I noticed the coin lockout was engaged.
That is when I got a little overboard with stripping back the molex. It just seemed too coincidental to occur right when I switched the jumper.
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when you did the molex plugs, did you test both replay and payout mode with the multiplier at 2x or above?
looks like I missed a switch in post 25 ... probably not uncoincidentally the one that is at the top of the circuit in post 26 that is powering the safety relay and odds follower relay.
when doing the wiring, did you have an extra blue/orange wire (27-3)? That needs to be connected to 30 when in payout mode.
I updated post 25 again.
you can jumper wire 30 to 27-3 on the odds disc as a test ... both those wires are on the odds disc edge lugs, and should be next to each other.
the coin lockout powers whenever the game is ready to accept a coin. It should do that in payout or replay mode. In replay mode, it powers when there are no credits.
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Thanks wolf, that worked. Multiplier is working now.
There are two 30’s that were previously attached. Should all 4 wires be bundled together to the 30?
Also, for some reason it is not paying 200 coins now. No hundred or two hundred wins. Stops at like 20 on big wins.
The higher wins spit out a handful
Of coins and Winner light comes on.
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There are two 30’s that were previously attached. Should all 4 wires be bundled together to the 30?
it's a daisy chain. It wouldn't hurt to connect them all together, but it's not necessary. Originally there was a wire 30 connecting to the replay switches, another wire 30 connecting to the payout switches, and a short wire 30 connecting those two together.
you must have the two "end" segments connected together or you'll break the wire 30 daisy chain. Whether that's done directly and you toss the short piece, or use the short piece to connect the other two is up to you.
there shouldn't be any leftover wire ends ... I shoulda mentioned that originally.
sounds like matching bars are paying like mixed bars ... which they would. However, the outboard wipers on the payout counter should also be active and the pay should power thru those also.
the game will pay 200 or 250 in single coin mode or will pay 100 - 300 when playing 1-3 coins. Otherwise, the jackpot lockup relay will power and the game should pay 200.
failure to pay 100, 200 and 250 could be the outboard finger on the payout counter CO trace (bottom finger on upper set). If that's ok, the other pays would require multiple failures for the pay to not work ... unless the odds unit wipers were on backwards, but then the odds lights and lower multiplied pays wouldn't work right.
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Perfect. All set.
I thought I’d checked that payout finger, but it must have been nudged somewhere along the way.
Thanks for all the help.