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Author Topic: How to use credit mode on 891-1  (Read 4505 times)

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Offline Phan000

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How to use credit mode on 891-1
« on: December 26, 2021, 08:24:48 PM »
Got an Bally super continental in shockingly nice (inside condition).

No gunk,  already adjusted, fresh lube on steppers. 

Anyhow,  I don’t get hot to add operator credits.  If I manually add them on the counter, they are playable.

The key was missing for the topmost side lock.  I put in a new tumbler set, and
Can make the roller push up on that switch.  No credits added however…

Very interesting machine & super fun to play.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 02:59:31 PM by wolftalk »

Offline wolftalk

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2021, 09:31:37 PM »
according to the schematic, there isn't a way to add credits to the replay register except by winning them.

if you're in replay mode and manually close the payout relay on the insert panel, that would run the odds motor and add credits.

the top key may be the "jackpot release key sw" ... got orange/green and white/green wires on it?  If yes, it powers the reset relay, which keeps itself powered and runs the odds motor until the credits are zeroed.


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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2021, 07:28:04 PM »
Yes wolf,  it appears that switch fits your description and is a jackpot reset.

Any clue how replays are won?  I don’t see them on the pay table.  The 14 credits on that counter were manually added.


Offline wolftalk

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2021, 10:21:45 PM »
in replay mode the wins are accumulated on the replay register instead of the game paying in coins.

if you run out of credits on the replay register, you have to put in coins.

some games had a button that let the player cash out their credits, others you had to have an attendant pay you and they removed the credits via the key. 

Offline Phan000

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2021, 06:38:28 AM »
I read on an old thread that replay mode is enabled by a switch/key  on lower right side.  Is this correct?

It appears that this was removed on this machine.  There is a massive wire bundle that comes out of the bottom beau plug. It is not connected to anything.

Would it be possible to replace this replay switch?


« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 03:08:26 PM by Phan000 »

Offline wolftalk

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 10:52:53 AM »
the hard part would be finding/making the bracket to hold the switch stacks.

this thread has a pic of what the assembly looks like - huge switch stacks on a metal mounting bracket:
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=25288.20

if you can't find/make the bracket, you could use molex plugs to jumper the appropriate wires together.  e.g. male half of plugs attach to wiring harness wires, female side is just loops of wire connecting two male pins together per loop.  Wire both male sides so the same female works for each and make one female which you move between the males to select coin or credit mode.

bally used the molex plugs on some later games in to change the game configuration - mostly for selecting 120V vs. 220/240V operation.

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2021, 02:16:34 PM »
Posted awhile ago.  and link also.  http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=25288.msg133962#msg133962

Richard

"Thanks to another member here, I have a service manual that covers models 891-0 through 891-4.

What I know:

891 - Credits only; the game does not pay out in coins, ever.  There's no payout tray.
891-1 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine locks up for hand pay at 400 coins regardless of mode.  Counter never used in coin mode.
891-2 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds all wins to counter without lockup even in coin mode; player can then cash out or play credits.  Game pays out completely, right up to the 1500 coin limit (or hopper capacity.)
891-3 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds wins up to 300 to the counter even in coin mode.  Customer can choose payout or play credits.  Machine locks up for hand pay on wins of 400 or more.
891-4 - Unit for Sweden that handled tokens or Kroner

Document outlining above in detail attached for those who might care.

There are other variations of the game between 891-4 and the 891-20 and I now know of variations as high as 891-23.  The manual didn't cover those, so .... ??? ?


Still need an 891-20 schematic...."

Offline wolftalk

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2021, 07:19:58 PM »
you can find the 1100 manual on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/


891-1 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine locks up for hand pay at 400 coins regardless of mode.  Counter never used in coin mode.

891-3 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds wins up to 300 to the counter even in coin mode.  Customer can choose payout or play credits.  Machine locks up for hand pay on wins of 400 or more.


I'm not sure you've got the hand pay rules right.  I don't think the game locks up in credit/replay mode on an 891-1.  Haven't looked at an 891-3 schem ... don't think I have one.

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2021, 06:11:30 AM »
Thanks for the help.  I’ll probably leave as is for time being and hopefully put a molex jump as suggested later.

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2022, 02:50:43 PM »
Revisiting this machine again, and the no credit function.

Having another super-continental at my house for a bit made me want to fix this credit mode issue.

The machine that I repaired does not have a key option to switch between credit and cash, though it does accept coins.  It has a button on the front to collect winnings.


I was thinking of looking on Amazon for a 20 wire switch terminal, and cutting a hole for a push button or flip switch.

I can’t envision finding the original part, and constructing one of blade switches seems a bit daunting.

Wolf, if I made a switch with molex, would I have to manually switch the molex inside the machine to change from credit to cash?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 03:09:39 PM by Phan000 »

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2022, 01:04:25 PM »
Wolf, if I made a switch with molex, would I have to manually switch the molex inside the machine to change from credit to cash?

yup!

'course, once you pick a mode, you probably won't change it often (or ever).

did you email KLAR and see if they had the part?

if you had to make one, it probably wouldn't be too hard.  A metal plate, a bunch of switches scrounged off slot/pinball/bingo machines or bought new, threaded rod like essmeier used and a lock.

there's various right angle switch mounting brackets used in pinball if you didn't want to bend or fabricate that part, tho getting something that lined up with the lock bar could be a problem.  May be easier to just use a piece of right angle and drill holes where you need.  Don't even need to tap threads if you use nuts on both ends of the rod pieces.
 
I'm pretty sure I have a schematic that shows how a collect button works.  The basic idea is instead of using motor cam switches to decrement the replay register, the collect button turns on the hopper and the coin eject roller switches decrement the replay register.

the 891-1 already has the reset relay but the payout counter may be mechanically stepped in coin mode, so no roller switches?  If so, that's another problem that would need to be handled ... probably most easily by making the payout counter electrically stepped only (remove the mechanical linkage) ... but you'd need the roller switch setup to step the payout counter in coin mode.

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2022, 08:20:22 AM »
I emailed Klar, no word yet.

Could I just rewire the existing setup for credit only?

 how would I create a collect button?

I

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2022, 09:32:22 AM »
yup you could change the wiring to make it credit play.  It still takes coins when you are out of credits.

for a collect button, I think the 891-8 was a credit-only game with a collect button.  You could wire your game like that.  I need to get the schematic cleaned up and posted on the bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ web site.

the problem would be the mechanically stepped payout counter.  Some games of that era used a mechanically AND electrically stepped payout counter.   Mechanical via the coin out roller in coin mode, electrical via score motor cams in credit mode.     

you have machines with electrically stepped payout counters so you can see how the switches are mounted on top of the hopper so the coin out roller arm toggles them?  You may have to do a little rigging to make the mechanical roller arm operate a switch stack or microswitch instead of the linkage to the payout counter, but it should be possible without needing to replace the roller arm.


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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2022, 05:12:15 PM »
Would it be easier to install a switch that would add credits and leave the rest as is?

If I manually add credits, the button does function and allow play.


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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2022, 07:19:06 PM »
you could.

you'd have to make sure the payout counter isn't stepping up or you limit the number of credits that can be added to 200 or less.

one way around that is make the replay button work when there's no credits.

on the back of the replay register there's a couple SPDT switches.  One of them has white/brown wire 56-3 on the middle/moving blade.  If you jumper that wire to black/red wire 81-3 on one of the mating switch blades, then the replay button will work even when the register is 0000. 

if all you do is add that jumper, then the game will still accept coins when the register is 0000 and reject them if the register is non-zero.

it's then up to you whether to wire the game for credit pay or coin pay.

if you don't want the game on free play but want a secret button that adds credits, the easiest way may be to have the button just power a trace on the replay counter and let the game may a payout to add the credits.  It'll need to be in credit mode tho.




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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2022, 08:32:03 AM »
you could.

you'd have to make sure the payout counter isn't stepping up or you limit the number of credits that can be added to 200 or less.

What wires would I jump to the payout counter to test this?  I

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2022, 08:52:12 AM »
the issue is IF you use the score motor cams to add credits somehow, the replay register step-up coil is usually connected to the payout counter step-up coil.

the payout counter can only physically step up somewhere around 250 times before the torsion spring will be so tight it won't step more.  Stressing the spring isn't healthy for long term reliability.

if you were in coin pay mode, you could just disconnect the payout counter step-up coil.  It steps mechanically in coin mode.

assuming you want to be in credit pay mode, the easy thing is make the machine free play ... the replay button works whether you have credits or not.

if you want something more complicated ... e.g. push a button and X number of credits get added ... it's probably easiest to make the button complete a win circuit and let the game pay.

you should not connect a button directly to the replay register step-up coil so a credit is added for every button push ... unless it's a momentary style button.  A regular button would be a problem if someone held it closed.

so ... how do you want the game to work?

1] credit or coin pay?
2] free play or special button adds credits?
3] if special button adds credits, unlimited credit add or a button push adds X credits
4] if a button push adds X credits, should it work when there's already credits or is it only enabled when the register is 0000


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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2022, 09:20:48 AM »
1. Coin mode or credit with a cash out.

I

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2022, 10:18:55 AM »
you already have a game that is coin mode or credit mode ... you're just missing the key switch that flips between modes.

when the game is in credit mode, you have to deposit coins when the register is 0000.  Is that what you want? 

you've mentioned adding credits via a button ... if you added that it changes how other things can be done.

the 891-2 paid all wins onto the replay register, then if a player pushed the collect button, the game paid out the coins.  If it ran out of coins, it shuts down waiting for a fill then continues dumping out coins after coins are added to the hopper.   Because all wins went to the replay register, the game never did a jackpot lockup (jackpot lockups happen when a win is too big to be handled by the payout counter).

I don't have a 891-2 schematic, but I have an 891-8 and it looks like the same payout scheme as the 891-2 ... and it's a lot simpler than other versions of the 891 that do jackpot lockup.   You could convert your game to that style pay, but you need to disconnect the mechanical linkage to the payout counter and add a switch that detects when a coin is ejected to make the collect button work.

the added switch is the standard redundant switch stack on top of the hopper used on all electrically stepped payout counter games.

whatever you do, the thing that has to be avoided is making the payout counter step more than 200 times.

[update] - the 891-8 paperwork is now on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 02:29:46 PM by wolftalk »

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Re: How to use credit mode on 891-1
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2022, 03:21:22 PM »
My posts keep getting cut to pieces.

I jumped the spdt switch and it works great as a free play button.

I looked again at the loose bundle and am
Not totally sure how to go about creating a molex.  Would I be switching from that loose bundle to the wires connected to the beau plug?

 

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