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Author Topic: bally 929-1 restoration  (Read 8138 times)

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Offline Peter321

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2022, 01:52:14 PM »
I have checked insert payout relay with 91-2, 72 and 45
Picture 1 non powered relay, 91-2 and 72 have continuity; pic 2, relay powered and switch 91-2 and 72 not having contact, but still continuity between the 2 blades!
Pic 3 shows that wires soldered on blades are insulated with tube.
Also checked on male plugs back of cabinet, also there 91-2 and 72 have continuity when blades are not contacting.
Hopper was not in machine during testing.
Was not able yet to see what winner paid light is doing when contacts are blocked

I have checked diverter plate and that’s almost touching the hopperdisc, so would bending the metal plate help in that case? Maybe better to just bend the diverter?( I am carefull because once bended it will be very difficult to go back to old situation)

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2022, 07:22:19 AM »
What seems to be the basic problem with the machine?

Offline Peter321

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2022, 07:37:15 AM »
Winner paid light stays on after new pull, payout unit is resetting, but winner paid keeps burning; I thought is was because reset pawl on payout unit is not interlocking when reset. On advice Wolftalk I tested replay insert relay and 91–2 and 72 kept continuity even when contact blades are not making contact.

Inser coin and coin accepted light work as they should

Other problem is adapt hopper to 2 eurocent coins with diameter of 18,75 mm

Offline wolftalk

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2022, 01:04:41 PM »
Winner paid light stays on after new pull, payout unit is resetting, but winner paid keeps burning; I thought is was because reset pawl on payout unit is not interlocking when reset. On advice Wolftalk I tested replay insert relay and 91–2 and 72 kept continuity even when contact blades are not making contact.

Inser coin and coin accepted light work as they should

Other problem is adapt hopper to 2 eurocent coins with diameter of 18,75 mm

"keeps burning" = burning out or staying on?  I thought you meant blowing up, but in any case, the winner paid light should not be on during payout.

continuity or almost zero ohms?   Wire 81-2 and 72 will show continuity unless you ensure there's no path thru the lamps, coils and transformer between those two wires.

in general, continuity/buzzer testing requires care to ensure the circuit is isolated.  It's easier to measure ohms.  Almost zero ohms means a closed path, anything more than a couple ohms means you are measuring thru a some other devices and should be treated as an open path ... assuming your probes are making good contact.

at game over when the winner paid lamp is on but the game didn't pay:

1] pull the hopper and verify the reset pawl switch is open.  Stick paper between the contacts on the switch with green/black wire 48-1 and yellow/brown 36-1 if ya want and shove the hopper back in.  If the coin accepted lamp is off, then the pawl switch is almost certainly open.

2] if the winner paid lamp is still on, you have a short on wire 48-1.   In that case, after a winner the winner paid and coin accepted lamp would be on, and if you played less than max coins on the previous game the insert coin lamp should be on.  If that's happening, check for shorts to the door frame on the lamp socket.



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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2022, 03:51:00 PM »
Typical wiring for winner paid light.

Offline Peter321

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2022, 09:06:17 PM »
I am sorry for the confusion due to my poor English; burning means the light is on.
I was referring to answer of Wolftalk earlier
“””””””””””””””
you mean the disc connected to the reset pawl (red arrow in pic below)?  If yes, when the reset coil powers, the pawls lift off the ratchet/gear teeth and lock in that position until the first step-up coil activation.

if the pawls don't lock but fall down onto the ratchet AFTER the wipers are fully reset, then switches will be in the wrong state:

1] the winner light will be on when it should be off - "payout counter reset pawl" switch on schem

2] win multiplying will have issues - "payout reset arm switch" on schem

... different names for the same switch stack.  The people drawing the schematic would start with other schematics and make changes, so they weren't always consistent.

if the pawls fall onto the ratchet teeth while the wipers are resetting, they will stop the wipers and the game won't pay correctly.  Usually the pawls not locking when reset is caused by dried lubrication on the pivot points on the step-up/reset arms.
“””””””””””””””””

So I thought it is a mechanical problem that the pawls are locking not tight enough; moving the reset plunger by hand makes the pawls interlock, but in the actual game the plunger is moved with more force and pawls not interlock and winnerpaid light stays on

Offline wolftalk

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2022, 08:25:31 AM »
if the winner light is on when there wasn't a winner and you look and see that the pawls are not lifted off ratchet any more, then yes .. the problem is mechanical.  I read what you said before as the winner light was on when the pawls were lifted (the reset pawl switch was open).

the machine yanking in the reset solenoid plunger should make it easier for the pawls to lock above the ratchet.

the problem could be the pivot points on the pawl arms are sticky.  I usually remove the arms and clean them in a tub of isopropyl alcohol, then apply a drop of lubricant.  The pawls should pivot very easily on the arms.

another possibility is the pivot point holes are worn.  If that's the case, you need to replace the arms.  Fortunately, they are commonly used on all bally slots and pinball machines, so finding a spare stepper unit to take the parts from is easy.

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2022, 10:54:25 PM »
In this youtube video it is clear how the pawls work; in my case the arm connected to the reset plunger looks to be worn out, so manually resetting the pawls lock and stay locked, but when operated electrically locking is too weak and they unlock.
I will chase new reset arm

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2022, 10:57:58 PM »
   Youtube: titel.                       Bally 809 upper unit - 2nd coin problems (inside)

Offline wolftalk

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2022, 09:01:19 AM »
it would be unusual for wear to allow the unit work when operated manually but not when operated electrically.  If the pawl has worn/rounded, you can try filing it so the step-up arm pawl latches more reliably.

when testing the operation manually, push the plunger into the coil without touching the pawl.  If the pawls latch up, then they should work the same when the coil does it if the coil is powered long enough and the coil stop is not broken.

when the unit is not resetting correctly electrically, the typical symptom is the plunger didn't pull all the way into the coil and the wiper reset aborted (the wipers didn't reset all the way on larger payouts).  A poor plug connection, reel mech B-1 switch or payout counter 0 switch can create the issue.

a quick test is jumper the zero switch closed to eliminate that switch as the problem.

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2022, 02:38:17 AM »
https://youtu.be/rmDodnSJbaA

https://youtu.be/XegM_bpqKig

Locking is not working when coil is operated normally, manually locking works.
Will need to bend or file something

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2022, 09:58:16 AM »
once the reset pawl starts lifting the step-up pawl, the two pawls should stay in contact the whole time.

is the step-up arm pawl scraping on the unit frame?  If it is, bend it up a little.

the step-up pawl should pivot freely ... see https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Payout_Counter_Pawls.m4v


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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2022, 07:11:45 AM »
Thanks Wolftalk,
Due to video’s I saw where to bend the setup arm; after some trial and error I managed to get it right
Works now as it should be.
Next is to adjust hopper overdrive so all coins are falling back and finding some new profiles for the corroded ones on the glasses

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2022, 05:24:17 AM »
small update: hopper paying out is going reasonable, sometimes coin stuck under arm, but is ok for now. behaviour is same when in payout or credit mode. Testing in credit mode I noticed that win of 100 is ok regarding bell and counting register, but 200 and 250 wins, with single coin, are not working properly. Bell rings till 100 counts and then stops, counting is not stopping, but keeps running. win of 160 is ok, but at higher wins counting keeps running untill I manually add coin ; bell stops mostly after counts of 80-100. Same when using more coins, so it looks like high paying outs are problem, not amount of playing coins.

I also noticed that the count unit in the upper cabinet is not moving at all whatever the win is.

apparently bell is not going synchroon with counting.

I am lost here because what I can see on the pay out counter on hopper it seems to work ok.

Wolftalk, maybe you can help me out on this one, as you own also this 929 model.

thanks in advance

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2022, 03:42:48 AM »
in checking the wipers on the 200 and 250 trail again on the p o unit I saw that sometimes the went to the end, but sometimes they stuck. I noticed that the spring on the ratchet was loose and by taken it apart spring "jumped" away.
So now trying to get that fixed, but the washer and the black "fixing ring"  to keep spring under control seems to be rather small and difficult to apply. There will be trick to do that, but for now I will be busy for a while to get that fixed
keep you posted

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2022, 08:45:06 AM »
in coin or credit mode, payout ends when the replay counter wipers "step off" the active payout trace on the disc.

the difference between coin pay and credit pay on some games like the 929 is coin pay mechanically steps the payout counter, but in credit pay the payout counter is electrically stepped.  Kinda odd.  It was probably a decision to keep customers that were "concerned" about electrically-stepped payout counters happy - they wouldn't run the game in credit mode.

high pays use the outboard carriage wipers and the C.O. (carry-over) trace on the payout disc.  The outboard wiper movement is small and not accurate enough to pay exactly, so their job is to get the main wipers on to the C.O. trace and payout ends when the main wipers step off C.O.

the count unit is only used to control incrementing the jackpot meter and was rarely used by anyone.  It was just an accounting thing to help track how much the game paid out when a game had hand-pays due to being over a coin payout limit.  Most casinos had procedures for accounting for hand-pays and tracking them to machines, so they didn't use the count unit / jackpot meter.

the bell on the 929-1 turns on for two reasons:

1] when the game goes into jackpot lockup mode and rings while the payout relay (insert) is powered.   Dropping a coin will trip the handle release relay and coin relay, either of which disconnects the payout circuit and the bell should go off.  The person doing the hand-pay typically dropped a coin to shut up the bell.

2] the bell rings when the jackpot relay is powered.  Jackpot relay is powered when wins happen ... looks like wins under 100 will power the jackpot relay for the duration of the payout and the bell turns off when the payout counter wipers step off the winning trace.  Wins 100 and over the bell rings until a coin is deposited. 

However, seeing how/when wire 23 on the schematic is connected thru the reels, payout counter and diodes needs more whisky than I can drink at 8am :-)   If the bell rings on a 100 pay, but not 200+ WHEN the jackpot lockup relay isn't powered, the problem is likely in the reel wipers.

the bell behavior is sometimes changed - staying ringing if someone walks away could be irritating.  It's supposed to stay running when the jackpot lockup relay is powered to attract the attention of the attendants.

the black ring on the ratchet isn't meant to come off.  The torsion spring fits over it when the spring is loose.  Typical torsion spring tension is 2-1/4 turns +/- 1/4 turn when the payout counter wipers are reset.  i.e. reset wipers or move them to reset, remove spring, hook end in whatever ratchet hole is appropriate so you can 2-1/4 turns when winding the spring an attaching to the post.

if the black ring is off, you may need to flatten it so the barbs dig into the ratchet firmly when the ring is forced back on.  If the ratchet plastic is too chewed up to hold on the ring, either replace the ratchet or glue/epoxy the ring on in a way that doesn't affect the spring.

the torsion spring can look a little messy on the ratchet and one side of the spring coils can poke above the black ring.  As long as the tail that is attached to the post is under the black ring, the spring will stay on.

test and make sure the payout counter resets from 2 steps and you can step the payout counter up 200 steps.  If the torsion spring is installed too tightly, the payout counter will stop stepping up.  A safety circuit should activate and shut the game down when the payout counter stops stepping when payout is occurring.

did that help?

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2022, 09:57:35 PM »
Thanks Wolftalk
It certainly helps and like all I am very gratefull that you are willing to help and share your knowledge

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2022, 07:36:40 AM »
satus summary payout problem: first all went well in coin and credit mode except for 200 and 200+ wins, register kept counting but no movement on payout unit; bell ringing irregular.

then:  torsion spring payout unit got loose and retaing ring and washer found somewhere in hopper; restored washer, ring and spring; with 2 turns on spring manually able with step up arm to fully step up till end  and resets works good, also after 2 times with step up arm wipers come back; reset pawls working ok and after restet rachet can move freely; zero switch works ok; basic wipers are following their track
1 coin:
testing in credit mode: win 2 gives 1 up on register,
win 10 gives 5 up plus 2 wen pushing set up arm
win 20 gives 10 up and when manually pushes set up arm gives another 2
win 100 gives 103 up and plus 1 and bell ring when pushing set up arm
win 200 gives 186 up and plus 8 and bell ring when pushing set up arm

odds unit advances when coining up and result is same when using more coins f.e. for a win 20

looks like for lower wins only have amount is counted

set up arm switches seems to work ok, but blades  "lowest switch" with wire 98 and 93 show continuity even when switch is in open position, problem?

manually pushing set up arm shows that 100, 200 and 250 wipers are coming off their track, but maybe not soon enough?

As I am thinking in circles now,  advice to progress is very welcome

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2022, 12:00:35 PM »
Win 10 pays 5, win 20 pays 10.
Could indicate the odds unit is one step behind.

Are there any other small payouts besides 10 and 20?
If so, set them up to payout then check the results.

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Re: bally 929-1 restoration
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2022, 08:47:08 PM »
the outboard carriage wipers on the 100, 200 and 250 traces should step off the end of the trace around 15 steps before the payout amount.  It doesn't need to be exact ... the whole purpose of the C.O. trace is to deal with the imprecision of the movement of the outboard wipers.  Anything from around 8-20 steps should work fine.

at reset, the C.O. and F trace (wires 98 and 93) may be connected by the wipers ... probably shouldn't be, but not sure it matters.   If you step up the payout counter a couple times tho, 98 and 93 shouldn't be connected.

the payout counter disc has 2, 5, 10, 20 traces and the outboard wiper traces.  The 5 trace is not used for any payout directly, it's used to get the main wipers onto the F trace with wire 31-5 attached for outboard wiper pays.

for single coin play, the 2, 10 and 20 traces are used for the small pays, and there's no multiplying being done.  Different odds motor stack 5 switches is used to power the register and payout counter coils, but they both close/open at more-or-less the same time, so payout counter wipers should step once for every credit added. 

are your results consistent and repeatable?  I wouldn't worry about what happens if manually operating the step-up arm ... you can't do it as fast as the game and you are racing the odds motor switches doing it manually.

I liked david's suggestion, but if you have the problem with single coin pays, the odds wipers can't be the problem unless they are misaligned and bridging rivets - e.g. the F wiper in the diagram below is connecting rivets 37 and 36 together (connecting wires 21-5 and 14-8, causing multiple odds motor switches to step up the payout counter).

payouts of 1/2 the correct amount for 2, 10 and 20 trace pays but outboard wiper pays being closer is kinda odd.  A mechanical issue affecting lower pays should cause higher pays to be too small also ... tho not by 1/2.  You have a 100 pay that is over, not under.

first thing to verify is the wipers are stepped off the end of the appropriate trace when pay ended.

second thing is to see if the replay register is stepping at the same rate as the payout counter.  A camera on the payout counter and listening to the register - or if you can operate the hopper out of the cabinet with cables, getting both in the same video frame will help so you can watch in slow motion makes life easier.

I woulda guessed the payout counter step-up pawl is grabbing two ratchet teeth when the torsion spring tension is low (try adding a 1/4 turn of tension), but that should affect all payouts.

 

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