New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: shortrackskater on March 03, 2019, 10:01:30 AM
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I've had this machine for over 20 years now and had never fixed this problem: extra coins always went to the hopper, and not to the tray.
So... I finally got sick of this and investigated.
I found that the wires to the lockout coil had been clipped and the lockout lever (to the coin mech) was bent back. I reattached the wires, and bent the lever back. I powered up and now it remained locked up - coins just drop through. But if I manually flip the coin lever, the lockout unlocks. It works fine at coin two and three, then the lockout engages as it should.
But just, moments after the cycle ends, it reverts back to locking out the coins again. You can hear it energized but about the same time the INSERT COIN light comes on, it de-energizes and coins drop through.
Hope this makes sense! I've been getting help from David Lee but I'm not the best at circuit tracing! I've checked contacts at multiple points with my ohmmeter but I'm still stuck. Hoping from my description I can be lead directly to a point in the reset cycle.
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This is where the extension cables come in handy to find these type of problems.. With the reels out and hooked up, you can watch what's happening.. Sounds like you could have a relay sticking or not fully closing because the white plastic insulator that seperates the relays blade contacts could be worn or melted. Your close if your able to get it to accept coins once, but one of those many contacts needs just a little more cleaning or pressure to work a second time around..
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I know we talked about this on the phone I think, but is there any way to trace the ~50VAC source that's getting shut off, causing the coins to drop back in the tray?
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I reached out to Jon by phone but got NA. I need to pull out schematic and see what I can find. Did you clean the male and female beau plugs?
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I am working on a basic understanding of the rejection
Solenoid
I did get your voicemail Gary I will post a diagram in a little bit
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He’s referring to the scavenger coil behind the coin mech.
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yes I know what you call it this is out of the book
Coin lockout coil
And yes 95% of the time when I see this coil not working it is a dirty plug 5% of the time it is a dirty switch
And this is where I must agree with old Reno we all need to use the same manual then we all refer to the switches the same way and solenoids he is much more affluent speaking about these parts than I am I worked on these machines for a living many many years ago they are not hard to figure out it is just electricity going through a switch
I am still trying to figure out the best way to explain it give me a little bit more time and I will put a diagram up with red highlighted marks I do not have the 1 1 1 4 manual schematic if somebody has one I would love them to post it on my Facebook page so the world can have it it is the same as any other machine they are all the same basic wiring simple
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Looking at a schematic for a 1088, so your machine may vary. According to the schematic the insert coin lite and coin lockout coil circuits run through the Reel Mech. C-2 and C-3 switch. Going from the description of the light coming on and the coil momentarily operating. I would look closely at this switch. As everything is working except when the clock link slide lever reaches a certain point thus opening the circuit to the lockout coil. Also check the steel limiter between the contacts, it maybe out of position. And the return spring, it could be interfering with the switch.
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What's bugging me is, nothing is changing position-wise, with those reel switch sets, when I manually flip the coin-in switch. But, again, when the cycle starts, the coins are locked out until the very end when it engages (unlocks) briefly, then locks the coins out again (non energized). I hope this makes sense. I'm really NOT good at troubleshooting these machines - very frustrating.
The other thing I notice is the clock link slide lever has considerable wobble but I don't see anything broken.
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here's the theory of operation for that coil after your last statement I would like you to call me on the phone
You can either I M me or you can get my phone number from Gary we will get this figured out for you you know us we're good
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Thanks Jon! I'll start again when I get home today.
DavidLee (and everyone else) - On power up, the lockout doesn't disengage as it should. But when I flip the coin in switch manually, it then releases until the third coin, then it locks out, releases just a tad before the end of the cycle, then locks out again!
I can duplicate the same thing by manually flipping the switch once (coin one), then closing the door and entering the next two quarters.
This should catch the thread up from a couple of PM discussions.
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Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.
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Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.
Thanks!
I had to take a break from this machine, but I will get back to it soon. It's next in line.
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Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.
Thanks!
I had to take a break from this machine, but I will get back to it soon. It's next in line.
Look for maladjusted open at 4th odds switch (open at max coins) in your top unit . Activated by tabs on nylon odds gear.
Thanks!
I had to take a break from this machine, but I will get back to it soon. It's next in line.
Ok I'm back. I should have waited two more days to make it four full years! :24:
Time just flew by, I had some surgeries (that didn't work :hissyfit: ) and had to move. I've finally got back to this machine.
There were two more problems that came up... a bad coin-in switch and a bad diverter coil. Both are working now.
However I'm back to my original problem which I'll restate here.
At power up... coins fall into tray. But if you manually flip the coin-in switch once (three coin multiplier), then the lockout disengages (meaning the coil is energized) At that point, you can insert two more coins, then the lockout ENGAGES as it should (coil de-energized). After the pull of the handle, the lockout disengages as it should but when the cycle completes, it engages the lockout (coil de-energized). If there is a payout, it remains energized, but when the payout completes, it goes back to lockout or de-energized coil.
I've checked various switches including the C3 on the reel bundle, as well as all the rest.
Old Reno said to check the 4th odds switch. My top unit has lights in it and that's it. The odds unit is on the left size of the reel bundle. I have a schematic but not for the 1114. I've added a photo showing where I'm tracing. I'd THINK that if I can just keep following the 50v line to the point of where it breaks, that I'd reach a switch that's out of line or out of position when the cycle stops. BUT... what bugs me is the fact that the lockout IS disengaged as it should be while the hopper pays out? At the end of the payout though... CLICK... it locks out the coins again.
Again I'm NOT experienced with EM's all that much. So, go easy on me... Jim, Wolftalk, David, Old Reno, or ???.
(Since I've posted, we've lost Gary/Amechanic. :( )
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I've just realized that most on this thread have either died or haven't logged on in quite some time.
Can ANY of our GREAT EM people help your friendly Admin with his Bally??? This is a resurrected topic that I had to abandon in 2019. Gary was helping me a little... wish I could resurrect him! :(
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The open at max odds switch on your odds disk turns off the lockout coil after max coins in thus rejecting coins. The associated coin relay switch allows lockout to turn back on if max coins are played. It is really only needed if max coins played, because anything less than max, the lockout will be powered thru the max odds sw.
If max odds always closed it takes infinite coins. If max odds always open, machine will take only 1 coin.
If associated coin relay switch is always closed, will take infinite coins.
If the coin relay sw is always open, machine will tak coins only until max coins are played one time.
I think your coin relay sw is bad, or not making contact. Pretty positive that’s the problem
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Thanks Craig! I deleted that post for you. :yes: And, don't worry... I FORGOT that I had started that thread anyway. :duh:
63mini - Ed was smart enough to notice it here!
I'll start poking around that area. I assume that's the coin relay just to the right of the mech?
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1114, 1114-2 and 1114-6 schematics are on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/
the games mainly have the coin scavenger system instead of a coin lockout coil ... except the 1114-6 which appears to have both with inconsistent labeling on the schem.
I don't recall seeing a scavenger system in detail, but from the schematic the coin scavenger coil powers when the game wants to reject a coin, which is opposite how the coin lockout coil worked.
got a picture of the inside of the coin door? If having trouble posting one due to size, send it to slotpics@cdyn.com and I'll resize and post it to the topic.
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My reject coil powers to allow the coin to drop to the hopper... or energizes.
I have Jim and Ed helping me by text. Ed found two switches on the reel mech - one was supposed to be open and one closed.
As of now I'm back to the original problem:
No coins accepted... UNLESS you manually flip the coin-in switch. Then it WILL allow two more coins. (3 coin mult.)
Whether you trip it once or three times: The machine will cycle. During the cycle the coil is engaged, or energized. Once the cycle ends, it then de-energized and locks out.
IF there is a payout, it remains energized (proper) but when the hopper stops, it reverts back to locking out, or de-energized.
I'm not sure what you mean by the coin door.
Here's a shot of the door, coin mech removed.
Thank you! :wave:
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you are describing the almost correct behavior for the scavenger coil on a 1114 . See circuit below.
problem is, you have the 31-1 wire connected to a coin lockout coil, not a scavenger solenoid coil, so the behaviour is opposite what you need.
if you look in the bally 2400 manual page 83, you can see what the scavenger coil looked like (parts 57-66) - see below.
electronic scavenging may have only been used on $1 machine or machines with heavy coins/tokens.
it's possible someone converted your machine to quarters and swapped in the more typical coin mech frame and lockout coil ... then said "oops".
on the 1114-6, it looks like they made wire 31-1 attach to an added relay coil (called the coin scavenger coil and/or coin lockout relay, depending on where ya look). A pair of redundant NC switches on that relay controlled the coin lockout coil behind the mech.
in effect, the added relay inverted the behavior of the original scavenger circuit: scavenger circuit powered = coin lockout coil NOT powered and vice-versa.
you would need to do the same thing or rewire your game using the typical circuit for a coin lockout coil.
which way you go kinda depends on how much of the "correct" behavior you want.
if you just care about the games rejecting 4+ coins inserted, you can rewire the coin unit "make at top" switch to be an "open at top" and jumper a couple wires together at the coin relay.
the behavior would still be wrong during payouts, reel spins and possibly when the handle was partway down if you have a handle microswitch.
I'm guessing someone fiddled the "coin unit make at top" switch to be always closed or be an open-at-top switch, which is why your lockout coil is powering after the coin relay trips.
fwiw, the electronic scavenging approach had the advantage of not holding a coin lockout coil powered for hours. The unpowered behavior was accept a coin. A similar circuit was common on some bally pinball machines - especially ones with multiple coin chutes where one solenoid could cause all the coin mechs to reject when the game didn't want coins.
sorry about the "coin door" phrasing ... was thinking about the pinballs at the time. I just meant the door, so your pic is great.
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Working today but I'll get to this tomorrow afternoon.
Sooooooo... I got this machine probably 25 years ago. It always would just take any amount of coins after three; they'd drop in the hopper and the machine would remain at max bet unless you then inserted one or two.
Back in 2019 (as seen in this thread!), I decided to figure this out.
And what I found, I've realized, is consistent with what you stated. The lockout plate was bent backwards and the coil wires were cut!
I just though, then, that they just bypassed it due to the familiar "buzzzzzz" that is so common in these.
It never occurred to me that this may have been a different denomination. I can't see anything that shows it was changed though. Everything looks like it is as/is right out of the Frontier Hotel, other than what I found with the coil and wires.
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Mark,
Can you post a photo of the relay below the red arrow as this seems like an add on. I would like to see the wire colors on the back side.
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Try pushing in on the ratchet link when the machine is not working properly.
Ratchet link is black with ratchet wheel attached, location center left side of reel mechanism.
The C-3 switch is part of the lock out coil circuit in most cases.
When pushing the link, listen and observe the lock out mechanism.
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Mark,
Can you post a photo of the relay below the red arrow as this seems like an add on. I would like to see the wire colors on the back side.
Here it is.
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Try pushing in on the ratchet link when the machine is not working properly.
Ratchet link is black with ratchet wheel attached, location center left side of reel mechanism.
The C-3 switch is part of the lock out coil circuit in most cases.
When pushing the link, listen and observe the lock out mechanism.
David:
I used a dowel to push in on the linkage to the ratchet. About 1/4" inch in, the coin mech lockout releases (energizes coil) and game simply sits at 1 coin in with the handle staying locked. Additional flips of the coin switch do nothing.
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Wolftalk:
Thanks for all that!
However my brain is still confused. I can't see any markings that this took dollars. I would have thought I'd see some evidence or markings on the machine.
The other thing I'm lost with is - my Bally 742a works the same way. It's only one coin, but once the machine cycles, the coin relay energizes, removing the lockout to allow the next coin in. After the coin is inserted, it de-energizes and locks out.
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Wolftalk:
However my brain is still confused. I can't see any markings that this took dollars. I would have thought I'd see some evidence or markings on the machine.
that's why I snuck in the word "may" on the comment about electronic scavenging being dollar machines :-)
the only place I've seen electronic scavenging in the parts manuals is on a page labelled "$1.00 Front Door Assembly".
the model 1102, 1112, 1113, 1114 and 1115 machines were mainly dollars. However, they did make 25c versions of some of them. The -5, -7, -9 and -13 were all 1114 models that were 25c.
unfortunately, I don't have the schematics for any of the 25c versions, so I don't know if bally removed the electronic scavenging on those machines and used the coin lockout coil circuits and mechanical scavenging (the red coin return button pivots a bar to push down the reject lever on the coin mech).
if your game model number is just 1114 and it's the correct serial plate, then it was a dollar game when it left the factory. Converting to a different coin can usually be done by changing a few coin path parts, the glass, the pinwheel and maybe the coin knife in the hopper.
wrt to the 742A, it was designed to use a coin lockout coil, not an electronic scavenging coil. All machines with a coin lockout coil use a similar circuit to control the coil to achieve the goal - when the game wants to accept a coin, the lockout coil is powered.
electronic scavenging is the opposite - when the game wants to accept a coin, the scavenge solenoid coil is NOT powered.
therefore, you cannot remove the electronic scavenging coil and connect a coin lockout coil in its place without making other changes. The game would only accept a coin when it doesn't want one.
someone found that out and disabled your coin lockout completely ... possibly after trying a few workarounds to make the lockout coil power sometimes. You cannot make the game work correctly without changing the original circuit.
the added relay to invert the electronic scavenge circuit is how bally dealt with the problem on the 1114-6 - though the schem says it's still a dollar game.
to make your game work right, you can either:
1] do exactly what the 1114-6 shows ... leave all the original 1114 circuits alone except wire 31-1 on the scavenger solenoid coil, add a relay with a couple redundant NC switches and a 8200 ohm resistor. Wire 31-1 powers the new relay coil and the switches connect wire 30 to the lockout coil.
2] rewire the circuit controlling the lockout coil to make it like the conventional circuit. You'd need to pick almost any game as an example, and you'd need to change the type of a switch on the coin relay (NO to NC) and a coin unit "top" switch (close-at-top to open-at-top), along with disconnecting some existing switches.
3] hijack the level relay for [1] above. The relay 63mini asked about is the level relay. It powers when the hopper is full and unpowers the diverter coil to send the coins to the dump. It's on the door because lowboy games don't have a lot of room in the cabinet.
any of of the above will make the game work correctly at all times.
if you have a relay or can source one, that's probably easier than option [2], mainly due to the type changes needed for the switches.
if there's no easy way to install in another relay, I'd do [3] and strap down the diverter so coins always go in the hopper. If the hopper overflows or gets so full you get more frequent coin jams, remove a bunch of coins from the hopper and spend them on something frivolous.
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Original ID plate.
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ok, so it's a 1114-13 and left the factory as a 25c machine. You coulda skipped a lot of painful reading if you gave the complete model number at the beginning :-)
so now you need to see what is in the game ... probably the quickest thing is look at/post a picture of the coin relay and the ratchet side of the coin unit.
on the coin relay, if there is a switch with wires 30 and 58-3 that is open when the coin relay is untripped and the 58-3 wire goes to a close-at-top switch on the coin unit, the game was designed with electronic scavenging circuits.
based on your behavior description, I'm betting it does have the e-scavenge stuff ... but maybe like the 1114-6 it also has a coin lockout relay in there someplace so it can drive a coin lockout coil correctly.
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ok, so it's a 1114-13 and left the factory as a 25c machine. You coulda skipped a lot of painful reading if you gave the complete model number at the beginning :-)
so now you need to see what is in the game ... probably the quickest thing is look at/post a picture of the coin relay and the ratchet side of the coin unit.
on the coin relay, if there is a switch with wires 30 and 58-3 that is open when the coin relay is untripped and the 58-3 wire goes to a close-at-top switch on the coin unit, the game was designed with electronic scavenging circuits.
based on your behavior description, I'm betting it does have the e-scavenge stuff ... but maybe like the 1114-6 it also has a coin lockout relay in there someplace si it can drive a coin lockout coil correctly.
Sorry!! :duh: :duh:
I didn't even think of putting in the full model number. I thought the addition digits were just "simple" variations on the machines.
Well the reading was fun. When I get this going (I hope), I'll edit the thread since I'm a moderator of sorts. :arrowthruhead:
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So, at this juncture, are we saying that the machine likely has a problem, and the decades-old "fix" (cutting the wires to the coin reject coil and bending the armature back (no lockout ever) was just a band-aid to a solvable problem? I hope. I hope.
I'll go ahead and post the other requested photos. :yes:
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I removed the coin odds unit and took some photos of switch positions. :yes:
Also found two tags stuck waaaaaay in the back, that worry me. :hide3: Look at the red tag.
Last photo: what the heck does that do? :Scratch-Head:
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your first pic is the coin unit step-up arm switch, and it has wire 75-5 on one blade. Can't see the other blade, but it should be wire 30. So far, so good.
second pic are the ratchet pin switches (open/close/make/break at zero/top). You have two open-at-top switches and two open-at-zero (zero=unit reset) switches. Can't see any wire colors.
two open-at-zero sounds right. One open-at-top shoould have wires 36-2 and 71-2 that turns off the insert coin light when the 3rd coin is played.
the other switch per the schems should be close at top, but open-at-top makes sense for a game with a coin lockout coil.
third pic dunno. Sometimes tags like that were used when they ran out of the correct wire color and substituted something else ... but why it says 1088 on it ...
4th pic dunno. Is the can thing in the 4th pic a buzzer? I'd take it out of the clamp and see what it says on it.
Afaik, bally did not use three-color wire, and you have a relay with a screw terminal socket with a wh/brn/grn or wh/red/grn wire attached to a lug. Where does that wire go?
still like to see pics of the entire front of the game, the entire inside of the door, and the entire left side of the reel mech.
it looks like you'll need to do some investigation of wiring and wire colors to see what is going on.
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That can is a big capacitor. It's a flasher. I'm an idiot. :duh:
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a 3-terminal capacitor with two terminals used. Not obvious what the third terminal - you'd need to get a part number off the can.
the relay socket is also non-obvious.
I'd look where the white/brn/grn wire and the orange wire on the right are going. Also pull out the relay and use an ohmeter to determine which screw lugs connect to which relay pins. I'd also take a pic of the relay ... one side of it usually has the specs and pinout definition. Mainly want to know if it's a 6V relay or a 50V relay.
I assume the orange wire on the right is connected to multiple screw terminals on the relay socket. See red arrows in below pic.
it kinda looks like the relay is capable of disconnecting the 6V completely and some of the 50V circuits, with the cap giving a fade-out effect on the lights rather than an abrupt shutoff.
I'd guess bally did not install that thing.
wrt the coin lockout coil, the bally 7200 manual for E2000 series games shows different door assemblies for dollar vs. 5c-50c games. Dollar used electronic scavenging and the 5c-50c games used a lockout coil.
that still leaves the question of how the game is supposed to work with a lockout coil. Can't see the wiring on the pin switches - purple circle below. Also need to see the coin relay switches and wiring.
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I'm sorry I'm throwing you off with my non-knowledge.
I certainly should know what a cap looks like. I've been shocked by one or two. :lightningbolt: :lightningbolt: :lightningbolt:
It's a Tung Sol 535 6v flasher! :Scratch-Head:
Stand by for answers to other questions.
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flasher eh ... ok, so someone decided to flash all the 6V stuff in the game - including the bell - when the relay is powered (probably). Now ya need to see under what condition the relay powers ... could be a jackpot, full hopper, empty hopper, door open, ...
it's a thermal flasher, so it more-or-less works like a 455 flash lamp.
it's possible the lockout coil is also effected by the relay, but you're going to need to stick on your miner's helmet and see how the lockout coil is being controlled.
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Last night I'm just staring at the machine wondering what blinks. No top light for change, a win situation simply illuminates "winner paid."
Never thought that of dang bell! :duh: :duh: :duh:
And the funny thing is that I hit three bars a few days ago while cycling the machine and, sure enough... RING RING RING RING RING. I was only thinking light and not sound.
I'll do some checking and report back.
Please stand by.
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Photo 1 - The orange wire on that relay leads to a terminal block on the left, then connects to a blue/white wire that makes it way up and to the left of the cabinet on what looks like a switch relay. (?)
Photo 2 - The white/Brown/Green wire makes its way to the reel assembly plug on the left (If you're facing the machine) and connects to the two pins circled in red. UPDATED, look ahead!
Photo 3 - Just for fun, I measured the voltage at these two points. When it's energized (or NOT locked out), the voltage reads 52VAC. When it's de-energized (locked out) it measures about 24VAC.
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the complete answer will probably require pulling the relay on the flasher gizmo to see what it is - part number, voltage and pinout diagram - and map the wires on the connector screws to the relay pins (quick pokes with continuity/ohms should do it).
I'm assuming it's a 6V relay, otherwise things will get very odd.
photo 1 in post 38 is the hinge switch. To make sense of the circuit, you may need to position the switch the way it would be with the door closed. i.e. jam paper or something in there when the door is open.
one question is when the coin lockout coil is powered, does it unpower if you open the door?
so far I can't think of a way the gizmo could be connected that makes the flashing relevant AND it interacts with the lockout coil. It looks like they disconnected wire 20 from the fuse and inserted the flasher gizmo into the circuit. Assuming the flasher works, all the lights and bell would be affected when the relay powered/unpowered.
maybe someone hacked in a modification, and they just disabled lockout when their modification didn't work right or it had a side affect they weren't expecting.
once the gizmo is understood, then ya know what they were trying to do. Maybe the answer is rip out the gizmo and make it work like the factory would have done it.
tmi
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per the 1114 schem, the hinge switch on that game has two separate switches inside it.
it looks like your switch has 6 terminals? If so, that would imply it has two SPDT switches inside, I'd assume the bottom lugs are the common ones.
if the orange wire 70 is connected to the left bottom lug, then the red/green wire isn't used for anything (it just goes to a terminal strip) and you wind up with:
1] when the door is closed, wire 70 connects to 63-2, so the chime and meters have power.
2] when the door is open, wire 70 connects to 25-6 ... which on the terminal block connects to your relay/flasher gizmo. However, there's already a wire 70 directly from the fuse to the flasher relay, so if the idea was the gizmo relay was cutting off the 50V to part of the game, they'd have to be very careful how they did that since normally wire 70 goes everywhere.
the usual reason for involving the lights/bell with a door switch is to either ring the bell and flash the lights when the door opens (alarm) or shut up the bell during a hand jackpot pay.
any chance your lights flash and bell rings intermittently when you open the door?
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photo 2 I opened a new bottle of ardbeg for :-)
the upper right corner pin looking into a socket in that orientation is pin 1, so that would be wire 18-2 and it connects to the insert coin lamp.
the round pin you indicated would be pin 14, which is wire 70 ... the 50V power.
so ... please say you determined the white/brown/green wire connections with a continuity tester and didn't unscrew the connector and look ... 'cause connecting 18-2 to 70 would blow fuses and the light bulb at certain times.
it's possible your hopper wiring is different from all the 1113, 1114 and 1115 schems I have with an 18 pin reel plug tho. If you have a mirror maybe you can verify the connection and wire colors with it ... if not, I'd unscrew the connector and flip it around to see.
photo 3 measuring 23V is probably fine. When the coil is unpowered, one side of it may be floating - not connected to anything - so you are seeing phantom voltage. In most bally designs tho there is a resistor from the wire 31 side of the coil to wire 30, so you'd actually measure almost zero when the coin lockout coil is unpowered.
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so ... please say you determined the white/brown/green wire connections with a continuity tester
Yes! I used my continuity meter. :yes:
More answers to come. Work day today, unfortunately.
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so ... please say you determined the white/brown/green wire connections with a continuity tester
Yes! I used my continuity meter. :yes:
the curse of continuity :-)
problem is what does continuity mean to the tool you are using. On a lot of multimeters, the buzzer will buzz if the resistance between the two probes is less than something like 20-50 ohms.
if you have one probe on wire 18-2 and the insert coil lamp is installed, only the lamp resistance is in the path to wire 20. From wire 20, only the transformer winding is in the path to wire 70. Both those things together are a low resistance and the buzzer buzzes.
it's better to use ohms ... or on most meters that buzz at least look at the ohms reading when it's buzzing:
- if it's more than a couple ohms, you are probably reading a circuit path through low resistance devices like lamps, the transformer and many coils and you should probably treat it as not having continuity.
- if it's less than a couple ohms, you're pretty safe to conclude your two probes are on stuff connected together by a wire.
the other option is to make sure the circuit is isolated. In this case, remove the lamp. Since the reel mech is out, you don't have to worry about isolating the reel mech C-2 end of wire 18-2.
does the insert coin light work correctly? It should be on unless you've inserted 3 coins, the reels are spinning or the game is paying.
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Update on the
hopper reel left side connector:
My meter does have the reading. I just didn't look. In the process of this, I realized I wasn't holding my probe firm enough inside the connecter. I found two more points of contact.
Top row, left reads .3Ω
Top row, right reads 1.8Ω
Middle row left reads 1Ω
Bottom row right reads 0Ω
The insert coin light works as it should. After three the light goes out as it should.
I have more readings to take I believe...
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the bottom/right pin in your pic should be pin 3 (on the reel mech plug, not the hopper :-)). That's wire 30.
seems like an awkward place to tap onto wire 30 ... maybe they had that plug out for some other reason.
you've either got a pretty good meter or you zeroed out the resistance of the probe leads, so the low readings on other pins are just lamp filament, transformer winding and switch contact resistances.
so the green/red/white wire is providing "ground" to the relay coil and all the blue wires on the relay are switching the flasher in/out of the wire 20 to flash all the lamps/bell.
the orange wire connections to the relay are still odd. If the orange wire(s) on the right side of the relay partially hidden by the wiring harness are connected to two lugs on the relay socket, then I'd guess that when the door opens, the relay powers and the lights flash. Closing the door wouldn't turn off the light flashing because the relay is now keeping itself powered, so the only way to turn off the flashing is turn off the game power.
it would effectively be a "someone opened the door" alarm that doesn't turn off when the door switch is closed.
in any case, it doesn't look like that relay is interacting with your coin lockout coil. You could remove the entire relay assembly, the green/red/white wire, the orange wire to the terminal strip and the orange wire to the fuse and it shouldn't make a difference to the game function assuming you reconnect the game blue wire back to the fuse.
however, I'd leave the relay in there for the moment as you may be able to repurpose it to make your coin lockout coil work right if you care about the game not accepting coins during payout.
what to do next
1] still need a picture of the coin relay on the left side of the reel mech showing all the wire colors and switches - especially a switch with yellow and white/black wires which would need to be jumpered out or the switches misadjusted to always be closed.
2] in the purple circle on the coin unit in the below pic, verify the white/black wire is connecting to the yellow/red wire until the unit steps all the way up (2 steps).
given your game behavior, it seems like the coin unit switches [2] are working but the coin relay switch [1] is wrong. That's why your coin lockout works after you've "inserted" the first coin.
there should also be a yellow/red wire on a payout relay switch. Is that wire disconnected or the switch misadjusted to never close?
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Corrected... I meant reel assembly! :duh:
I'll start on requested info. :)
Some progress...
1. I don't see any coin relay on the left side of the reel mech.
2. Black/white wire IS connected to Red/Yellow until unit is stepped up fully.
I don't know where the payout relay is located? Hopper?
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the coin relay is circled below. David Lee's pic in post 7 has an arrow pointing to the switches you care about. You need to see what the white/black wire is doing.
I'm guessing the white/black 58-3 wire connects to a yellow 30 wire when the coin relay trips. If so, you need to do a little rewiring to make the coin lockout coil work right. You need the coin lockout coil to power when either:
1] the coin relay is reset/untripped
2] the coin unit is not at the top step.
pretty doable, but need to see what 58-3 is doing at the coin relay currently.
the main payout relay is usually on the hopper since a couple switches on it control the hopper motor.
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In general the payout relay is located on the top left rear of the hopper.
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That looked more like a solenoid to me... sorry about that. I was looking for the typical "box" configuration.
Stand by...
Reel assy. - left side.
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ok, that's not going to work. You have a couple options:
1] remove the switch blades the yellow and white/blade wires are attached to and swap them in the stack. You need the switch to be closed when the coin relay is reset, and open when the coin relay is tripped (it's tripped in your picture).
you do not need to unsolder wires are the coin relay end ... just swap the blades and adjust them.
some more rewiring will be needed at the other end the white/black wire on the coin unit.
2] hijack that added relay in your machine and use it to power the coin lockout coil. However, someone swapped the switch blades on the coin unit, so you'd need to rearrange that stack.
[1] is easier since either option needs moving blades around in a stack. If you want to do [1], I can give you more details.
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below schems are what you have and what you need.
step-by-step, do this:
1] on the coin relay, remove the switch stack and bottom wafers/two switch blades with the yellow and white/black wires. Swap the blades and reassemble/mount the stack.
2] adjust the switch so it is closed when the coin relay is reset, and open when the coin relay is tripped
3] on the coin unit find the open-at-top switch with the white/black and yellow/red wires
4] unsolder the white/black wire and solder it directly to the yellow/red wire.
5] add a new wire from the lug where the white/black wire was and attach it to the yellow wire which is on one of the lugs on the coin unit disc.
that should make your lockout relay basically work, but the game may incorrectly accept a coin during a payout or while the reels are spinning. If you want to deal with that, you'll need to look at the switches on the payout relay and reel mech C marked below. They'd be switches with the red/yellow wire on one blade.
I'm assuming you don't have a handle microswitch, but maybe you do. The handle microswitch, reel mech C switch and payout relay switch may be right, wrong, disconnected or missing.
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Step 1 done.
I'm moving a little slow lately..
Houston we have a problem.
Now it DOES take a coin, but only one. The next coin in returns to the tray.
Unless I didn't set the stack switch properly. I'll check the trip/reset again tomorrow. It's 108 here today and my garage is a little on the warm side.
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the yellow/red wire on the open-at-top switch on the side of the coin unit is going to the coin lockout coil, and the mating blade should be connected to yellow wire 30 via a jumper wire you added.
when the coin unit is not stepped all the way up, that switch will power the coin lockout coil.
the switch on the coin relay is only needed when the coin unit is stepped all the way up (5 coins played) ... it's how the machine can be reset when you played 5 coins on the last spin.
in the above, the only time the coin lockout coil is unpowered is after you've deposited 5 coins and you haven't spun yet.
technically this is not quite right. In the normal bally design the coin lockout coil would also be unpowered during payout and while the reels are spinning, but making your game do that is a bunch more work.
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This is confusing.
Why is it a 1114 model can be 25¢ or $1.00?
Shouldn't it be different numbers for the two?
Are the wiring diagram the same for 25¢, $1.00?
:Scratch-Head:
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This is confusing.
Why is it a 1114 model can be 25¢ or $1.00?
Shouldn't it be different numbers for the two?
Are the wiring diagram the same for 25¢, $1.00?
:Scratch-Head:
most likely the game was originally $1 and was converted to 25c. Don't have the schematic for the specific model to see.
problem is the $1 machines didn't use a coin lockout coil, they used a coin scavenger solenoid.
the circuits driving the scavenger solenoid are different than the ones driving the lockout coil, so you can't remove the scavenger solenoid coil and bung in a lockout coil without making some wiring changes or adding a relay.
a lockout coil powers to accept a coin and a scavenger coil powers to reject a coin. The driving circuits need to be inverted when switching between the two.
the above stuff is making it work so it accepts coins until you deposit 5, then it rejects any additional ones. It's possible to make it reject during payout also by connecting to different wires than the yellow 30 wires described above.
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I'm a little confused at this point.
What is my next step?
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check the open-at-top switch on the side of the coin unit ... the second picture in post #31, but take a pic from further back so all the wiring on the switches is visible.
take a pic with the unit reset and stepped all the way up.
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Houston we have a problem.
Now it DOES take a coin, but only one. The next coin in returns to the tray.
Unless I didn't set the stack switch properly. I'll check the trip/reset again tomorrow. It's 108 here today and my garage is a little on the warm side.
I'm stuck at this point.
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post #59 doesn't make sense? (I'm back in form!)
I'll take a guess ... did you unsolder the yellow/red wire from the open-at-top switch blade on the coin unit and connect the white/black wire to the yellow/red wire, but not resolder both back onto the switch blade?
what ya needed to do was leave the wire on the switch blade and solder the white/black wire onto it.
the yellow/red wire needs to connect to wire 30 by either the open-at-top switch or the coin relay switch (via the white/black wire) or both.
in other words, pretend the white/black wire is yellow/red and then it would visually make sense.
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OHHHH I didn't see post #59 because David popped in with his question. I may split that subject out and create a new one from it.
Stand by. I work today so it may be a day from now. :arrowthruhead:
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post #59 doesn't make sense? (I'm back in form!)
I'll take a guess ... did you unsolder the yellow/red wire from the open-at-top switch blade on the coin unit and connect the white/black wire to the yellow/red wire, but not resolder both back onto the switch blade?
what ya needed to do was leave the wire on the switch blade and solder the white/black wire onto it.
the yellow/red wire needs to connect to wire 30 by either the open-at-top switch or the coin relay switch (via the white/black wire) or both.
in other words, pretend the white/black wire is yellow/red and then it would visually make sense.
Ok I'm back to this.
Well I'm an idiot! I had unsoldered the black/white wire instead of the white/black. And if I had just used the wire numbers as instructed, I would not have goofed up.
SO now... the wires are correct, I hope. And yes I left the other wire on the switch contact.
However, now it's back to just taking unlimited coins to the hopper but only registering one coin.
:banghead:
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Ok I'm back to this.
Well I'm an idiot! I had unsoldered the black/white wire instead of the white/black. And if I had just used the wire numbers as instructed, I would not have goofed up.
SO now... the wires are correct, I hope. And yes I left the other wire on the switch contact.
However, now it's back to just taking unlimited coins to the hopper but only registering one coin.
:banghead:
that's probably a different issue.
after a spin, the first coin deposited should cause the coin relay to trip, and that in turn causes the handle release relay to trip.
after the handle release relay is tripped, the next coins cause the coin unit step-up relay to power, and that in turn causes the coin unit step-up solenoid to fire to step up the coin unit. There's a bit of sequencing involved, so:
1] after a spin, push down/release the coin switch and verify the coin relay and handle release relay tripped.
2] if that's good, push and hold down the coin switch. The coin unit step-up relay (not the step-up solenoid on the coin unit itself) should power.
3] when you release the coin switch, the coin unit step-up relay should stay powered and when the coin switch is up, the coin unit step-up solenoid should power.
4] when the solenoid plunger pulls in, the coin unit step-up arm switch with the 30 and 75-7 wires should open and the coin unit step-up relay unpowers. That in turn unpowers the step-up solenoid and the coin unit wipers should rotate one position.
none of the above cares about what the lockout coil is doing, so none of the changes you made should effect it. Even the 85 vs 58-3 wire oops would only effect coin unit reset.
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that's probably a different issue.
after a spin, the first coin deposited should cause the coin relay to trip, and that in turn causes the handle release relay to trip.
after the handle release relay is tripped, the next coins cause the coin unit step-up relay to power, and that in turn causes the coin unit step-up solenoid to fire to step up the coin unit. There's a bit of sequencing involved, so:
1] after a spin, push down/release the coin switch and verify the coin relay and handle release relay tripped.
2] if that's good, push and hold down the coin switch. The coin unit step-up relay (not the step-up solenoid on the coin unit itself) should power.
3] when you release the coin switch, the coin unit step-up relay should stay powered and when the coin switch is up, the coin unit step-up solenoid should power.
4] when the solenoid plunger pulls in, the coin unit step-up arm switch with the 30 and 75-7 wires should open and the coin unit step-up relay unpowers. That in turn unpowers the step-up solenoid and the coin unit wipers should rotate one position.
none of the above cares about what the lockout coil is doing, so none of the changes you made should effect it. Even the 85 vs 58-3 wire oops would only effect coin unit reset.
I'm officially lost.
The coin relay powers when a coin inserted, or when I flip the switch. The handle unlocks. Any further flip of switch does absolutely nothing.
Did I mis-wire something? What bothers me is that before I did all this, the machine DID take three coins and step up properly. It just kept taking money to the hopper after the third coin.
I APPRECIATE all this help, but at this point, I'm ready to just undue everything I did and return it back to before - if I actually can. I know you had me bend some of the contacts to change the open/close setting.
My brain seems to be wired more for digital circuits and old mechanical machines. :arrowthruhead:
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is the coin lockout coil behind the coin mech staying powered after the first coin is inserted (the game accepts the coin, but the coin unit doesn't step up)?
it's actually kinda irrelevant because the nothing you were changing should affect the coin unit step-up, so undoing any of that stuff shouldn't solve the problem.
what's supposed to happen on the first coin after a spin is the coin relay trips and that in turn causes the handle release relay to trip. Sounds like that's working.
the coin unit should reset if it's not already) and the 1st coin lights should be on.
the next coin should cause the coin unit step-up relay to power, and a switch on that relay causes the coin unit step-up solenoid to fire which steps up the coin unit when the solenoid unpowers.
the only thing in the circuit between the coin switch 23-1 wire and the coin unit step-up relay is a handle release relay switch (23-1 to 61-1 after the handle release has tripped) and plug connections.
I dunno where the coin unit step-up relay is on a lowboy game or if it's the old style open relay or a "ice cube" style relay. The relay coil will have wire 70 and 61-1 on it tho. David Walz should know since he has a 1114 disassembled at the moment.
[update] ... looks like from a picture david sent me the coin unit step-up relay is next to the reel 3 wiper board and it's a old-style relay. If you clip a jumper onto the 61-1 coil wire and touch the other end to wire 30 on the coin switch, the relay should power and cause the coin unit to step up.
another test ... assuming you don't hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch after the first coin ... is attach voltmeter probes to 61-1 on the handle release relay and 70 on any handy 50V coil (like the coin diverter), then hold down the coin switch and see if you get 50VAC after the handle release is tripped.
if you do get 50V on 61-1 on the handle release relay switch, move the probe to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay coil and see what you get.
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Coin lockout is staying powered. No step up after any coin inserted (or switch flipped) afterward.
First coin light stays on.
I can manually rotate the coin wiper board slowly and it steps up to third coin then lockout activates (powers off)
I'm adding two photos to make sure I'm jumping the correct points. I'm 99.9% sure this is correct.
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yup, those are the right points.
you don't want to clip both ends of the jumper on, you just want to briefly connect those two points together. When you connect, the solenoid powers and pulls in the plunger. When you disconnect, the solenoid unpowers and that's when the wipers turn.
you should be able to manually step up and reset the coin unit by operating the solenoid plungers. If you have the ratchet in wrong or the pin switches not positioned properly wrt to the peg sticking out of the rachet, the solenoids might fire but the ratchet can't move due to mechanical interference and the plungers may not pull back out of the coils.
your second pic in post #31 is the reset position of the unit with a peg pushing some of the switch blades.
usually you can at least hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you depress the coin switch the second time. If you hear nothing, your problem is likely the handle release relay switch or plug connection, and less likely the coin unit step up relay coil itself.
the wiring changes you made are controlling the lockout coil correctly(ish), so you're good there.
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Ok I briefly jumped the two points. And yes it does step up!
What is my next step? The more I work on this, the more I realize the insanity of EM machines and troubleshooting.
This?
"another test ... assuming you don't hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch after the first coin ... is attach voltmeter probes to 61-1 on the handle release relay and 70 on any handy 50V coil (like the coin diverter), then hold down the coin switch and see if you get 50VAC after the handle release is tripped.
if you do get 50V on 61-1 on the handle release relay switch, move the probe to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay coil and see what you get."
And again, I'm sorry I have to be have my hand held in doing this. I am learning but also easily confused with this dang thing.
I'll try and make up for it in my behind the scenes work here! :propeller:
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you can do that test or use a jumper wire some more ... both work.
below is the circuits you care about:
1] the red highlight is the circuit that isn't working
2] you proved the coin unit step-up coil works by jumping the not-wire-70 lug on the coil to wire 30 - the green line
3] the only thing left in the circuit is the coin unit step-up relay switch, the coin switch and plug connections. Since the handle release relay works, the coin switch itself is ok (handle release is fed from wire 74-1), so one or more of:
a] the coin unit step-up relay switch isn't working
b] plug connections are bad
c] the coin unit step-up relay is not powering when the coin switch is depressed - yellow circuit
since ya have a jumper, you can connect one end to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay (next to reel 3 wiper board) and with the reels back in, touch the other end to wire 30 on the coin switch. The coin unit step-up relay should power, which in turn should power the coin unit step up coil.
if that works, the red circuit is ok and your problem is the yellow circuit. If it doesn't work, problem depends on whether the coin unit step-up relay powered.
if using a voltmeter, you can stick one probe on wire 70 and poke around anywhere in the 50V circuits you care about and see if the meter says 50VAC. If it does, you have a closed circuit path from your probe to wire 30. If you get a much lower voltage, you have an open circuit or a cruddy connection if the circuit is supposed to be closed.
e.g. if you put probes on wire 70 and 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay, you should not get 50V because the coin switch is not connecting 30 to 23-1 when the tripwire is up. If you push down the tripwire, then you should see 50V IF the handle release relay is tripped so it connects 23-1 to 61-1.
make sense?
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"since ya have a jumper, you can connect one end to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay (next to reel 3 wiper board) and with the reels back in, touch the other end to wire 30 on the coin switch. The coin unit step-up relay should power, which in turn should power the coin unit step up coil."
This was what I did just and yes, it steps up properly, then locks out. I'm not sure what you meant about "with the reels back" as they were in when I did the test.
"e.g. if you put probes on wire 70 and 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay, you should not get 50V because the coin switch is not connecting 30 to 23-1 when the tripwire is up. If you push down the tripwire, then you should see 50V IF the handle release relay is tripped so it connects 23-1 to 61-1."
Placed my meter on those exact points. I get 0 voltage. When I depress the coin switch I get about 37 volts.
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I think you can delete post 68+
your status as of post 67 is the coin unit and it's step-up solenoid coil works properly, but the game is not powering that solenoid when it should.
that's the job of the coin unit step-up relay on the reel mech, so you need to figure out if the relay is not working, a switch on it is bad, or there's a wiring/plug issue.
just to make sure:
- a solenoid coil has a hole through it and a plunger sucks into the coil hole when the coil is powered.
- a relay coil has a flat(ish) top and a metal armature plate pulls down onto the coil top when the coil is powered.
yeah, 68 thru this post aren't really relevant since they assumed a different jumper wire location.
if ya wanted to dredge anything from those posts, it'd be this:
if you jumpered from 61-1 on the reel 1 microswitch to 60-5 on the coin unit step up solenoid coil and things worked, then it's a pretty safe bet the molex connector to the handle release relay and the reel mech beau plug are ok.
the 61-1 wire from the beau plug pin to the coin unit step-up relay could still have a problem at the beau plug, but it's not likely.
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Ok we've gone back in time to Aug 20. Hey wait... does that mean I have to have ANOTHER birthday? :hissyfit:
Sorry I sound lost (I am somewhat), but where are we at this juncture? Back troubleshooting in the reel mechanism area?
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your problem is getting the coin unit step-up relay circuit to work right (lower relay next to reel wiper 3 board).
do this:
1] remove the reel mech
2] jumper orange wire 70 from a coil on the door or the handle release coil to wire 70 on the coin unit step-up relay coil
3] jumper 61-1 on the coin unit step up relay and touch it to yellow wire 30 on the coil switch
does the relay power?
if yes, remove those jumpers and jumper 61-1 on the reel 1 microswitch to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay. Shove reels back in and coin the game to reset, then manualy push down/release the coin switch. Do the odds step up? If not, do you hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch?
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your problem is getting the coin unit step-up relay circuit to work right (lower relay next to reel wiper 3 board).
do this:
1] remove the reel mech
2] jumper orange wire 70 from a coil on the door or the handle release coil to wire 70 on the coin unit step-up relay coil
3] jumper 61-1 on the coin unit step up relay and touch it to yellow wire 30 on the coil switch
does the relay power?
if yes, remove those jumpers and jumper 61-1 on the reel 1 microswitch to 61-1 on the coin unit step-up relay. Shove reels back in and coin the game to reset, then manualy push down/release the coin switch. Do the odds step up? If not, do you hear the coin unit step-up relay powering when you push down the coin switch?
Ok finally got to this. :arrowthruhead:
Jumpered as instructed steps 1 to 3 and YES it does power. :yes:
I shoved the reels back in and powered on. The odds do NOT step up but the coin unit step up relay DOES activate.
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ok, something is wrong with the circuit below. There's only one switch, plug connections and wires.
you want a coin unit step-up relay (CUSUR) switch to connect wire 74-1 to 60-5 when the relay is powered.
60-5 should connect to the coin unit step-up solenoid coil, and 74-1 should connect to wire 30 thru the coin switch. That should power the solenoid, and it's not happening.
easy but unreliable test is:
1] remove the reels
2] connect ohmeter probes to wire 74-1 and 60-5 on the reel mech plug pins (see way below if not sure how). You should get very high/infinite ohms.
3] manually close the CUSUR (push the relay armature plate down onto the coil top). You should get almost zero ohms.
if you don't get almost zero ohms
the switch on the CUSUR needs clean/adjust or there's a wire broken.
problem is you don't know from the schematic where wire 74-1 is going. It's connecting 3 points - the plug pin, the switch on the CUSUR and a switch on reel mech A-1. It could be any of these three and it's just manufacturing convenience:
plug pin ---- CUSUR switch ---- A-1
CUSUR switch ---- plug pin ---- A-1
plug pin ---- A-1 ---- CUSUR switch
since the game pays, you know that 74-1 is good between the plug pin and reel mech A-1. You don't know if the 74-1 wire going to the CUSUR switch is connected to the plug pin or the A-1 switch ... you have to look.
if you do get almost zero ohms
the wiring is probably ok, but a cruddy CUSUR switch can still cause a problem. So could a poor connection in the wire 60-1 pin/socket connection.
things you can try:
1] jumper 74-1 from reel mech A-1 to 74-1 on the CUSUR switch, stick in reels and test.
2] jumper 60-5 on the CUSUR switch to 60-5 on the coin unit step-up solenoid. Stick in reels and test.
3] connect jumpers to both 74-1 and 60-5 on the CUSUR switch and leave them hanging out the front of the reels. Stuff the reels back in and:
a] touch the jumper ends together briefly. The coin unit should step up.
b] touch/remove the 60-5 jumper to wire 30 on the coin switch. The coin unit should step up.
c] connect the 74-1 jumper to 74-1 on the coin switch and use the coin switch to "add coins". The coin unit should step up.
depending on which of the [a-c] things above work or don't work, that will tell you if the problem is the switch or the circuit in which side of the switch is the problem.
plug charts:
the plug chart on the schematic is looking into the female socket ... which is the same as looking at the wiring side of the male plug. Normally you are looking at the pins, so you have to mentally mirror the chart.
the female beau plug has two horizontal pins and a vertical pin in each row. Oddly, pin 1 is not a vertical pin.
below is a pic from david walz of the 1114 reel mech sockets. Pin one on each female socket would be the top/right pin, therefore pin 1 on the mating male plug would be the top left pin.
in the below picture, it looks like pin 22 is missing in the larger socket, but it wouldn't matter because the chart shows pins 20-24 aren't used.
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First step here.
I think I've isolated the first two areas to check, but making sure. I found the 74-1 on the small beau plug on the reel mech. However, there's TWO wires that come from under the mechanism and tie to a third that then makes it's way to the other side, the larger plug to pin 24 (IF I am reading it correctly). There is a brown wire on the large plug at pin 10.
Is this my starting point? I'm measure resistance at those two points while depressing the step up relay manually?
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usually this kinda thing is done due to a damaged/burnt pin. It's okay to move the wires to an unused pin - obviously on both the plug and socket unless you are intentionally changing the behavior of the game.
looks like your pin 15 on the small plug is both burnt and pushed down into the housing, so they abandoned it.
that's fine as long as they moved the wire in the female socket also.
as you said, your test changes to putting the probes on pins 10 and 24 of the big plug and manually "closing" the coin unit step-up relay to verify almost zero ohms.
tmi
----
if that works, you'll probably want to verify the wires were moved in the sockets. You can just stick a meter probe on 74-1 on the coin switch and poke pin 24 on the big socket to see if you get almost zero ohms. If no, poke the original pin 15 on the small socket and see if the wire is still attached there.
why there's a white/green/brown wire on pin 18 of the small plug is another question. Bally did not use 3 color wires, and that pin was originally unused. The obvious thing if abandoning pin 15 would be to move the wires to the unused pin 18 ... or if the housing is undamaged, I prefer to steal an unused pin and replace the bad pin 15 so you don't need to move wires in the female sockets and the thing stays like the schematic says.
if someone had already used pin 18, then the only unused pins are over on the bigger plug/socket so they had to run a wire extension to use one of those.
may be worth seeing where the white/green/brown wire on pin 18 is going and what it's for (hopefully this hasn't been looked at previously and I forgot about it).
74-1 connects five things on the reels - two different switches on the coin unit step-up relay, a switch on the coin unit reset relay, the plug pin and a reel mech A-1 switch.
since there's a double wire 74-1 at the plug, it's a pretty safe bet that one wire goes to the relay switches and the other goes to the reel mech A-1 switch.
often a wire going to two switches on the same relay is just a bare wire end soldered to two blades.
if you don't get almost zero ohms putting the probes on any two of the five connect points of the 74-1 wire (A-1 switch, the three relay switches or [now] pin 24 on the big plug), you've found a problem with wire 74-1 itself. Since the game pays, the wire going to A-1 works, so it'd be the wire going from the pin to the relays that could have a problem.
you really only care that 74-1 makes it to the switch blade that connects to wire 60-5. If the other relay blades didn't work, that just effects meters and the chime.
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Weeks later update - Sorry I've been sick and only had time for NLG, and not my own stuff!
I got as far as checking:
"you'll probably want to verify the wires were moved in the sockets. You can just stick a meter probe on 74-1 on the coin switch and poke pin 24 on the big socket to see if you get almost zero ohms. If no, poke the original pin 15 on the small socket and see if the wire is still attached there."
I have zero ohms there.
I'll now check the tri-color wire at pin 18 on the reel bundle and report back soon!
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Ok I've finally traced that white green brown wire and found it went to a connector on the reel bundle that then goes directly to the mechanical counter light. There's a different tri-color wire that goes up to one of the switches on the reel bundle from that connector. Photos added.
I'm getting lost with this and, again I apologize for my long delays.
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ok, short version.
1] can you see the coin unit step-up relay when the reels are inserted into the cabinet?
2] can you attach a jumper wire to wire 74-1 on a coin unit step-up relay switch and dangle the end out of the cabinet after shoving the reels back in
if yes, take/post a picture of where you attached the jumper in [2]
3] push down/release the coin switch to reset the game
4] hold down the coin switch ... is the coin unit step-up relay powered? If yes, touch the end of the jumper wire to yellow wire 30 on the coin switch. Did the coin unit step up?
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Ok I jumpered from 74-1 (I hope! It was orange with a green stripe). Powered up the machine, flipped the coin switch and the relay does power up.
I then attached the jumper to the orange YELLOW wire on the coin switch and it does NOT step up.
Last sentence was incorrect! See my reply #80 for explanation.
I've been so busy here on NLG that I haven't had time for this but I will try to act quicker! :yes:
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Ok I jumpered from 74-1 (I hope! It was orange with a green stripe). Powered up the machine, flipped the coin switch and the relay does power up.
I then attached the jumper to the orange wire on the coin switch and it does NOT step up.
UGH!
I've been so busy here on NLG that I haven't had time for this but I will try to act quicker! :yes:
no worries, assuming my wife doesn't kill me for being annoying, I can confuse ya for as long as ya want.
I hope you meant you touched the jumper to the YELLOW wire on the coin switch. If you touched it to the 74-1 wire on the coin switch when the coin switch was down, nothing should happen.
your jumper end is on 74-1 on the coin unit step-up relay (CUSUR) correctly. The mating blade when the relay powers is brown wire 60-5. 60-5 is supposed to go directly to the coin unit step-up coil to advance the number of coins played.
things to check:
1] when you push down the coin switch the second+ time, the CUSUR should power and stay powered when you release the coin switch. Does it? If no, that's a problem.
2] if you move the jumper from 74-1 on the CUSUR to 60-5 on the mating blade and touch/remove the other end of the jumper to yellow wire 30 on the coin switch, does the coin unit step up coil fire and increase the coins played? If no, that's a different problem.
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My brain hurts.
I need to go back to what I did, two replies ago.
When I jumper from 74-1 to the Yellow wire and leave it connected, YES it does step up when I flip the coin switch.
If I just touch the jumper to the yellow wire, nothing happens.
Losing mind. Send help.
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ok, it sounds like your problem is the coin unit step-up relay is not staying powered when it should.
the first coin deposited trips the coin relay and handle release relay.
the second coin two things happen:
1] when the coin switch goes down, the coin unit step up relay (CUSUR) powers.
2] when the coin switch goes up, the 74-1 connects to 30 and IF the CUSUR is still powered, the coin unit step-up solenoid powers and releases the CUSUR. The plunger moving back out of the solenoid moves the unit wipers.
you have a couple testing options:
1] just examine stuff:
the coin unit step-up arm switch and make sure it's closed when the unit is at rest. If you manually pull in the step-up plunger, the switch should open. If you aren't sure what the step-up arm switch is, it's a vertical switch near the coin unit step-up plunger with yellow 30 and orange/white 75-7 wires on it.
if [1] looks ok, check a switch on the CUSUR with orange/white 75-7 and brown/red 61-1 wires. It needs to close when the CUSUR is powered.
2] if you can reach the CUSUR, when the game is sitting after a spin, hold down the coin switch and push down the armature plate onto the coil top. It should stay down by itself.
if you can't reach the relay armature:
- attach a jumper wire to the brown/red wire on the CUSUR relay coil and put the reels back in the game.
- hold down the coin switch
- touch the other end of the jumper to the yellow wire on the coin switch. The CUSUR should power and stay powered. If it unpowers when you untouch the jumper from the coin switch, then one of the two switches in [1] is not working or you have a plug connection issue on wire 75-7 ... or somehow wire 30 on the step-up arm switch has a problem.
to clarify (not likely) some of the above, below are a couple pictures from david walz labeling some of the parts.
if you aren't familiar with stepper units like the coin unit and how the wipers move, see a bad video here:
https://bingo.cdyn.com/video/stepper_units.m4v
the video is a older/simpler unit without step-up arm switches, but the coil unit works the same way.
note if you are comparing the second picture below to the 1114 schematic, the wiring of the top switch on the coin unit reset relay does not match as the picture has yellow wire 30 attached instead of an orange/green 74-4 wire. See the 1114-2 schematic for the wiring. It's functionally the same, but the 1114-2 circuit is simpler and eliminates a possible race condition when incrementing the "total in" meter.