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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: RobinAK on March 09, 2021, 08:52:42 PM
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Okay I got me my first EM machine. :dancing_2: Need help ID machine. No tag on the side. :Scratch-Head: Aprox year made? Model? The coins on the top glass are all dated 1980. Also need hopper motor. Also seller modified the power switch for outside access. :duh: I'll be fixing that. Any photo of what the power switch should look like? Also how do I remove top trim/glass? Here are pics. Why does is always turn them sideways??
Thanks! :thank_you:
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Congratulations on your purchase RobinAK! :applause:
Could you please try to turn all your nice pictures over to the right a little?
SOMEWHERE around 90 degrees would be just jim dandy.... :Tongue_Out:
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finally got it. here is another pic
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the cabinet style is 808/809/831/873 and a few other more obscure models. However, the upper compartment was there to house units needed for those games. Most were multiple coin machines - either pay multiplier or multiple line.
got a pic behind the upper glass? If there's a stuff in there with anything except a lamp panel or a flourescent light, pics of that.
the slotted metal index discs next to each reel have numbers/codes stamped into the left sides. What do yours say?
the m-645-118 payout counter disc was commonly used in 809 models ... but right-left pay didn't show up until model 847.
I'd guess you have a very good remanufactured game. Look for black sharpie-like writing on the units and whatever is behind the top glass.
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the cabinet style is 808/809/831/873 and a few other more obscure models. However, the upper compartment was there to house units needed for those games. Most were multiple coin machines - either pay multiplier or multiple line.
got a pic behind the upper glass? If there's a stuff in there with anything except a lamp panel or a flourescent light, pics of that.
the slotted metal index discs next to each reel have numbers/codes stamped into the left sides. What do yours say?
the m-645-118 payout counter disc was commonly used in 809 models ... but right-left pay didn't show up until model 847.
I'd guess you have a very good remanufactured game. Look for black sharpie-like writing on the units and whatever is behind the top glass.
Thanks for some good information. I'll take a look at the reel disc's and see what the numbers say. The chrome trim seems to overlap the top glass. I was afraid to go further with out knowing how it comes off. Ill take another look. Any idea what hopper motor I need? Or where I may find one? I was gonna ask on the classifieds but I was trying to figure out what I was needing before posting an ad.
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Okay I figured out the top glass removal :duh: . Not much up inside. Looked around for writing. Nothing found. Got numbers off the reel index disc's.
I got 684-305S, 684-305S & 684-307S. Looked a little closer at the hopper motor. Got a number on it. E-119-344. Also had a date on it.. I could read 1974.
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Look on either side of the circuit boards (commonly called wiper boards) behind the reels.
There’s a chance that the model number is handwritten on the board or a little white tag
has been applied.
Lots of times the model number is marked on the components by machine mechanics.
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I don't think bally made machines in that era with plastic zip ties on the wire bundles ... davidlee has seen a lot more game guts tho.
the p-684-[305, 306, 307] index discs were most commonly used in 1090 machines (3 coin multiplier), but those used a m-645-369 payout counter, had wide reel strips and a different cabinet style.
I'd bet that bally didn't make the machine, so there isn't a bally model number. Circuit-wise it'll be similar to a 1090 if you erased the coin unit stuff.
one sanity check is look at the wire colors on the hopper plug and the reel plug. The wires on the numbered traces on the payout counter disc should go directly to the reel wiper boards. If the wires change color at plug connections, that's a big clue the game is a mashup of different machine parts.
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Bally machine that has some modifications, wires re-wrapped and custom top glass.
The hopper and payout step up unit are exactly like a 831 machine in my shop.
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Okay well thanks for all the great information. The wiper boards have no numbers other than #1,2 & 3. Wish it was a true unmodified machine but I still like it enough I may keep it. So the hopper motor... any leads on where to go? Ive posted in the classifieds here. Been looking on the web. No luck yet. thinking I might have to have it repaired. Any suggestions on where to look for one?
Thanks!
Robert
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does the motor work? Someone could have overheated the solder lug and melted it off, then did a clumsy splice onto the stator coil wire. You could tidy it with some heat shrink tube and don't worry about wrapping the coil with anything.
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does the motor work? Someone could have overheated the solder lug and melted it off, then did a clumsy splice onto the stator coil wire. You could tidy it with some heat shrink tube and don't worry about wrapping the coil with anything.
Well the seller insisted on showing me how it had a hopper issue...even though I kept telling him no worries its okay. He made it stop on a payout. The hopper then started to function.. he had no coins in it at the time. He then says huh it was not doing that before...He then did something to make it stop.. I forget what exactly he did.. pulled the hopper or restarted the machine maybe... anyways he then makes it stop on a payout again and the hopper was trying to work...that's when I said well its smoking now.. lets unplug it.
I have not messed with the motor yet. I just assumed its no good anymore. Maybe I should try it and see. Maybe I'll remove it fro the hopper so no load is on it and go from there. The windings seem like they got pretty hot though so i assume its shorted now.
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the winding can handle letting a little smoke out.
your best best is to take the hopper apart, clean out all the old grease and crud, re-greasing with a synthetic grease and seeing how it goes. Also remove the stator and clean off the rotor/armature drum and the stator hole ... there's very little clearance and junk in there can bind the rotor.
a major place for dirt to accumulate is behind the pinwheel at the bottom, and I'd also remove the pinwheel shaft and clean that too.
as an experiment which I've never tried and if you want a relative idea if whether cleaning/greasing made a difference ... and you have a drill with a adjustable torque chuck: empty the hopper, attach the chuck directly to the motor rotor and set the chuck to slip at minimum torque. Keep upping the torque until you get the pinwheel to rotate a few times.
clean/grease the hopper and do it again to see if it requires less torque to spin the pinwheel
the gearbox has a huge torque multiplying affect, so you may not see a difference.
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Apparently the hopper did work. It probably started to heat up during the payout.
Most likely he tripped the coin in wire to stop the motor.
Like Wolftalk said clean the hopper. You may find debris in the bottom, sometimes small screws or washers get lodged.
The saw tooth gears can be turned by hand. There hard to move, but it can be done.
I’m not recommending this, but the hopper motor could be wired directly to 110ac for testing only.
This is done with EXTREME CAUTION !!!
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Well the motor is toast. I removed it form the hopper. Patched it up and ran it unloaded. Still smokes after a few seconds. It looks like crap. The gear box is fine as i can spin the motor easily. Hopper seems fine also. Maybe a prior issue and it just now gave up. Seems like the wiring connections have be tampered with prior. So i know its 110v 50/60 hz. what is RPM, HP? trying to find a replacement. Im finding similar looking ones made by dayton on ebay.
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tmi? :-)
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tmi? :-)
wow awesome! Was this in the DL section? I never thought to look.
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not on the nlg site anywhere. Just one of the bally internal documents I got from a slot operator/designer/field ref/refurb guy in nevada.
if you have the patience to put 460 turns of 25 gauge magnet wire onto your stator, you can rewind the coil. I don't know if the stator comes apart so you could easily wind the wire around the bobbin.
If it doesn't, you're faced with trying to calculate how long the wire needs to be and threading it through the gap between the bobbin abd stator for every turn ... I'd guess the wire is at least 150', but winding it on gets easier as you go :-)
there must be some bad motors with good stators around for a reasonable price - usually it's the first gear in the gearbox that wears out. Did you try some of the slot parts companies?
I'm going to the pacific pinball warehouse tomorrow and will look in a box of bingo parts I brought back from nevada. I'll also email a guy I know there and see what he has.
btw, the motor used on the new style/snow hopper is different and has different part numbers for the stator, so they probably won't work. The snow hopper has the motor turning the pinwheel directly, while your hopper has the motor off to the side and gears connecting the motor to the pinwheel. There's a hopper from a series E game on ebay ... the motor from it won't work.
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not on the nlg site anywhere. Just one of the bally internal documents I got from a slot operator/designer/field ref/refurb guy in nevada.
if you have the patience to put 460 turns of 25 gauge magnet wire onto your stator, you can rewind the coil. I don't know if the stator comes apart so you could easily wind the wire around the bobbin.
If it doesn't, you're faced with trying to calculate how long the wire needs to be and threading it through the gap between the bobbin abd stator for every turn ... I'd guess the wire is at least 150', but winding it on gets easier as you go :-)
there must be some bad motors with good stators around for a reasonable price - usually it's the first gear in the gearbox that wears out. Did you try some of the slot parts companies?
I'm going to the pacific pinball warehouse tomorrow and will look in a box of bingo parts I brought back from nevada. I'll also email a guy I know there and see what he has.
btw, the motor used on the new style/snow hopper is different and has different part numbers for the stator, so they probably won't work. The snow hopper has the motor turning the pinwheel directly, while your hopper has the motor off to the side and gears connecting the motor to the pinwheel. There's a hopper from a series E game on ebay ... the motor from it won't work.
Yeah I looked at the DL page after I posted that and did not see it. But I can say when I looked at that last night I immediately downloaded it and backed it up as I knew that was a rare find lol. Thank you so much for your efforts. Yeah looking at the motor Ive thought about rewinding it. Looks like a pain if I cant get it apart. If i get time today I might stop at a local electric motor re builder and see what they say. I saw that hopper and thought maybe if the stator could swap over. But probably not. All the Dayton motors don't match up either. If you find one please PM me as obviously I'll take it lol.
Thank You!
Robert
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Okay I got it apart! :dancing_2: I'll am going to rewind it myself. Ordering wire today! Thank you so much for that information without that I would not be able to attempt this. :thank_you:
Robert
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great!
I'd epoxy a metal tab of some kind where the missing lug was. If nothing convenient laying around, a short piece of solid copper wire would work
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Okay. So I replaced the windings tonight. And its working just fine! I reinstalled it in the hopper and its working great. I was able to get the machine up and operating. I got a few bugs worked out and discovered a few more. The biggest issue is payouts are not spot on. Like on a 2 coin win it sometimes only gives one coin and a 20 coin win is only paying 18 every time i checked. Couple minor ones like bulbs. It was getting late so I called it the night. But all in all the machine is now operating. For just the little time I have been working on this machine I can say the EM's are pretty fun machines to work on.
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Great, you got the motor and the machine working.
The under pay could be linked to the payout step up unit.
It might be to far advanced causing the contacts to run off early.
Adjusting the black cam washer as to having the cam return a fraction further back could solve the problem.
Make note of the position of the washer prior to adjusting as a point of reference.
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in addition to what david said, verify the wipers are resetting all the way and not stalling, especially when resetting the payout counter from low pay positions. You should not be able to push the wipers clockwise with your finger after resetting the unit.
if you rotate the black eccentric zero stop cam to shift the wiper reset position a little more clockwise, make sure the zero switch opens at reset and closes on the first step. You can also step the unit manually and verify the wipers step off the traces at the right time. Fiddling with the zero stop cam only effects the first step ... you need to make sure that two cam teeth aren't getting grabbed on the first step. After the first step is good, if the wipers are not stepping off the traces on the right step, you have to loosen the contact plate and twist it a little to adjust when the wipers leave the trace ends.
finally, check that the trace ends aren't pitted/burned away by arcing. If some are and some aren't, it can be difficult to get payouts correct.
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Another possibility would be the contact blade/finger(s).
Sometimes they get bent thus shortening or extending the length.
If all payouts are good except for one or two, this could be the problem.
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Awesome! Thanks everyone. Ill look in to the payout issue over the coming weekend assuming I get the time to do so.
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Okay so I got the payout issue resolved! :dancing_2: It was a problem with the coins getting kicked off the wheel and back into the hopper but still triggering the payout pivot arm & switches. Thus counting a coin was paid but not spitting the coin out. After learning how everything works and checking for proper operation many many times, getting a feel for how problem was random. Usually 1 coin short but I found out sometimes it could be 2 or 3 on higher payouts after many tests. I was determined it had to be kicking coins back in the hopper as the payout wiper was always correct after any payout. Hopper works to fast to see it happen when watching it with a mirror. So I had my wife help me make a slow motion video with her Iphone and me holding a a mirror and light in the hopper. Here is the video link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDtZzm3DhnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDtZzm3DhnQ). So the cause is hard to see in this video as its not high rez as the org was. but the top shield on the kicker was rubbing the top of the coins and causing them to kick out and still trigger the pivot arm switch. a little bend was all that was needed. So now Ive learned a ton about these machines. Very cool and fun to work on. Ive ran several test now. Many wins spot on every time!
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Here is a link of a hopper functioning in slow motion.
As to capture the action sequences.
https://youtu.be/nBgRk7qHs2Y (http://youtu.be/nBgRk7qHs2Y)
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Here is a link of a hopper functioning in slow motion.
As to capture the action sequences.
[url]https://youtu.be/nBgRk7qHs2Y[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/nBgRk7qHs2Y[/url])
Haven't seen that one before. So in my video you can see an occasional coin flipping the switch arm but the coin was not exiting the hopper. Caused by the coins rubbing the top shield on the kicker arm and then lifting slightly off the hopper shelf wheel just before contacting the switch arm. causing the coin to trigger the switch but also pop off and back in the hopper. Adjusting the top shield on the kicker by bending it was the cure. My hopper was in the machine so I could not see the action without the mirror and even then things were moving too fast to see the problem. The slowmo video I made with the mirror captured the error. Once I saw the problem in action the fix was simple.
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Nice catch, couldn’t notice in the video.
A little lubricant in the pivot roller and pivot arm axis point is beneficial.
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Nice catch, couldn’t notice in the video.
A little lubricant in the pivot roller and pivot arm axis point is beneficial.
Thx. It was starting to frustrate me but once we did the video to confirm my suspicions it all made sense. That shield was just barely rubbing the top of the coins. The little bit on pressure being applied to the top of the coin was causing it to slip off the knife edge just enough to make it hit the roller crooked. Yeah everything is lubed/cleaned up and working smooth. Second day now. Probably 60+ various wins. All spot on. Also manually tested each wining payout twice. No issues at all. :dancing_2: