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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: DBreneman on March 28, 2015, 03:06:22 PM
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This is my first post so I hope this isn't a FAQ, but I couldn't find this problem in looking through the old posts. I have a lot of experience with pinballs and jukeboxes, but this is my first slot machine, and the lack of visibility of the components in the cabinet is frustrating.
Every time you pull the handle, either by inserting a coin or releasing the catch manually, the coin hopper motor starts to run, and will continue to do so until it pays out roughly 54-58 coins, most often 56. I can see the payout counter activator lever moving with each coin, but like I said, the motor starts running immediately each time the handle is pulled, not as the result of a winning combination. But it's hard to know what's happening because most of the components aren't visible in the cabinet. Any pointers would be appreciated!
And, yes, I have the manual. ("Manual No. 2400" reprint.)
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Something may be incorrectly activating the hopper to run and it does so until the Payout Safety Timer stops the payout after a preset time delay of so many seconds. That could be why you always get about the same number of coins dispensed. That time delay can be set from 15 to 45 seconds depending on the coin used by the machine.
(wish I'd find a machine doing this at the casino) :applause:
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on the old em's there a relay that pull in to run the hopper so coins won,t jam after a lot of plays and no wins to keep coins mixed up so they won't jam, but also the coin diverter should prevent those coins from riding the knife to payout tray did it ever work?
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on the old em's there a relay that pull in to run the hopper so coins won,t jam after a lot of plays and no wins to keep coins mixed up so they won't jam, but also the coin diverter should prevent those coins from riding the knife to payout tray did it ever work?
That sounds like this Hopper Mixer Relay mentioned in the Bally EM manual. Not sure what or when it gets activated.
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that would be the name of relay
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Check the contacts on the back side of the hopper to make sure none of the contacts are stuck together.. You will also find more relays and contacts inside the top box. With your door open lift off the top glass and chrome bezel. Your feature unit is in there. Pull out the feature unit and check the relay contact in there too.
When your machine stops paying, does it trip the safety timer, and the machine go dark??
Gary
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Thanks for the suggestions. I'll check those things tomorrow. The machine does *not* go dark after the motor stops running, so it may be the diverter that is my problem. This machine sat for 15 years in a friend's basement and "It worked at the time" (how many times have you heard THAT?) so I'm assuming that there are no major component failures, just neglect.
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nothing you can't fix on a em slot or pinball if you have the time
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I couldn't wait until tomorrow. :-) I'd thought that perhaps the diverter might be stuck in the retracted position. But as it turns out, the diverter is extended when the mechanism is at rest. As soon as the hopper motor starts to run, the diverter retracts. After the 56 or so coins are paid out, and the motor stops, the diverter extends again. Hmmm...
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Your coin diverter is controlled by a switch on the hopper. Earlier unit like found in the 742 thru the 800 series have a plastic ball on a shaft that spins. It's hovering over the coin bowl, when the hopper fills up, it raises up and closes a switch. On the later models it has a cherry switch on the bottom front of the hopper. It would close when the hopper fills to its max amount of coin, then they went into a bucket in the stand.
I would check for a possible grounded wire causing your problem. I had a similar problem years ago, but my hopper would run every time the reels would spin, and quit when the reels stopped. Paid 18 coins every time.. I finally found a wire on my hoppers cabinets beau plug pinched between the mounting bracket and the flange on the plug.. It never blew a fuse, but once I repaired that wire, that machines worked great!!
I would also check around for any loose coins that could be causing your problem. Be carefull if you reach in around the safety timer (back left corner), that has 110V back there... I learned the hard way :duh: :hissyfit:
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Well, I discovered three interesting things today.
1) If I reset the hopper payout unit manually by pushing in the reset solenoid, then plug the machine in, it will pay out 25-30 coins immediately.
2) If I hold the clock fan/governor so it can't spin, the machine will pay out indefinitely. And, #3...
3) It always pays out until about the time that the fan/governor stops spinning, even though that is several seconds past the time that the reel unit is doing any useful work.
I'd like to thank everyone here for their help so far. I've been reading a lot in the Geddes-Mead book today and am hoping that some time this week (no time to work on it again until next weekend) I
ll have a Eureka! moment that ties all these observations together. :-)
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Oh, and Amechanic, I may be using the wrong terminology, and I apologize for that. The "diverter" I'm referring to is the one in the hopper unit that extends to knock coins back into the hopper if the motor costs past its shutoff point, not the diverter in the door that directs coins to the coin box if the hopper is full. Sorry for the confusion.
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Oh, and Amechanic, I may be using the wrong terminology, and I apologize for that. The "diverter" I'm referring to is the one in the hopper unit that extends to knock coins back into the hopper if the motor costs past its shutoff point, not the diverter in the door that directs coins to the coin box if the hopper is full. Sorry for the confusion.
That part in the hopper that knocks coins back into the hopper may be what is called the "coin kicker"?
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ok... Lets see what we can figure out.. It's sounding more like you need to do an oiling of all your reels linkages and you clock assembly. If everything is sticky and moving slow, you could be holding a switch too long and delaying signals to the hopper. The Bally EM has switches that have to open and close at the right time.. So take some time and clean and oil your machine..
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Can't post for some reason...
Check yoour reel mech A and C switches. They kill pays during handle pull, otherwise you could drain the hopper as the reel wipers arms fell back during handle cock.
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The coin kicker is responsible for knocking off that extra coin that sometimes fell out because of the hopper pinwheel's inertia. Later versions use the hopper motor brake that attaches to the hopper motor armature. Same thing, prevents one or two coin overpays.
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I had an issue like that with one of my machines. After searching and tracing wires, I found that the switch that opens after the payout has been made that stops the power to the motor, was making contact a little bit longer than needed. It is located in the switch stack at the rear of the hopper I guess would be called the payout relay. I adjusted that switch so when the relay releases, the contact for the motor is broken before the relay opens up all the way. My motor was staying energized longer and would alow the coins to advance past the kicker arm and sometimes come out but most of the time, it would get stuck under the roller keepiing the spiral from resetting. Dont know if this is your answer but I wanted to throw it out there because I havnt had that problem since.
Dave F
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Here's what I've discovered so far. I've eliminated the A switch, because its function is to prevent the hopper motor from running during wind-up, and the motor does not ever run during wind-up. I then turned my attention to the C switch, which is supposed to prevent the hopper motor from running until all the reels are indexed. The C switch, however, opens and closes as it should during the cycle. It opens during wind-up, and closes after the third reel is indexed. However, the hopper motor starts immediately upon kickoff.
The problem seems to be centered around the payout counter combined with the second reel. If I stop the clock at any point before the second reel indexes, the hopper motor will run continuously until the safety timer shuts it off. However, if I stop the clock right after the second reel indexes (and before the third reel indexes) the machine dispenses the typical (approximately) 56 coins and stops, which is what it does if I don't interfere with the clock at all.
If I manually depress the payout counter reset solenoid, then power up the machine, it will immediately pay out 42 coins. So the extra approximately 14 coins that are paid out when the machine cycles appear to be a function of the time that passes between kickoff, which resets the payout counter, and the indexing of the second reel, which starts the 42-coin "countdown."
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Had a problem similar, machine over paid until safety time kicked in. The upper coil on the back of the hopper was missing a spring. I've temporally used a rubber band for testing and it solved the problem.
In your case, possibly one of the pay out wipers may be stuck on a payout and the combination of a missing spring or relay out of adjustment might cause the hopper to run every time. I'll be curious to know how you solved this problem. Also when looking in problem areas check the wiring, I found two wires hanging on by one strand and another just resting on the solder lug.
Good luck.
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The payout counter advances and resets fine, and none of the wipers appear to be out of adjustment. But it's definitely part of the problem, since the motor starts running as soon as it resets. I guess I need to figure out how the hopper motor is getting power even with the C switch open. It may have something to do with the stirring action (which also involves the 2nd or "B" reel), but so far I haven't found the reference to that in either the manual or the Geddes/Mead book, both of which would benefit greatly from the inclusion of an index.
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Have you made any progress on the runaway hopper?
The machine I'm currently working on had been setting along time.
I found the grease on the Zero Switch pivot armature was rock hard and the arm wasn't moving freely.
Even took about 10 minutes to work it free from the shaft.
Its centered in the photo, grey with a 3 point metal keeper holding it in place.
Not saying this is the problem, but you might want to see if its moving freely up and down.
On a side note, I have a friend who owns a Bally Pinball machine called "Wizard!" He ask me to take a look at it.
What happens when a coin is inserted, it will add games on the counter. Also it will reset the knock down targets if they are manually activated and I believe it kicks a ball out of the hole. Have any suggestion as to where to look first. I'm not real familiar with the workings yet, it was a bit over whelming at first glance.
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One thing I've noticed is that we have no pictures of your machine? Many time we can see things wrong in a picture that you don't.
Just my opinion, but it sounds like you have a short in your machine causing the hopper motor to run as it does. It could be a bad light bulb socket. You need to check that the plastic insulators are covering the bare wires in the relays contacts. Check your beau plugs wires for broken or grounded wires. Your hopper wiper board is another place to check for shorts.
Gary
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Did you ever solve your problem??
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Sorry it took me so long to reply - I didn't receive an email notification for the posts on the 4th.
I had to set this project aside for a while because of other priorities, but I'm hoping to get back to it this weekend. So although I've been ruminating on it : -) I haven't made and progress since my last post. I'm hoping to get back to it this weekend and will post some pictures of the major components.
As far as the Bally pinball machine goes, I'm most familiar with Gottliebs, but as to the issue with the drop targets, are you saying that they reset, and the ball is kicked out to the plunger, any time a coin is is inserted? Do the score reels also reset? It could be that the play button, which you press to start the game and add additional players, is stuck closed. In that case, any time a credit is established, the play button receives power, and the game will reset.
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This will be the weekend that I put pictures up, or die trying. :-)
Incredibly busy with work and other required activities, so needless to say, I've made zero progress since my last post. Thanks to everyone for their patience.
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I was wonder what was happening with your machine. You have been busy on other things. I know how it goes, rather be working on a machine, but lots of other projects in between. Pick up old Vendor Coke machine V-39, been sitting in a garage for 35 years, so I have running, but still needs some attention. Also got another Bally quarter machine that has the opposite problem it won't run, but very fixable.
As far as I understand the hopper receives its power from the wipers behind the reels when they move into a payout position. The roller pivot on top of the hopper activates the relay which advances the coin counter until it moves off the pay out contact strip shutting off the hopper.
Also not sure if this is probable, check for coins around or stuck in the safety timer at the bottom left rear of the machine. Its a long shot, but you never know.
I'll keep your problem in mind when I'm working on my machines, maybe something will click.
Re: pinball machine, thanks for the information. As I mentioned it belongs to neighbor so its low on the list of things to do.
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Finally I've had a chance to take some pictures. I hope someone here might see something obviously out of adjustment that I'm too much of a newbie to notice. Here is the reel unit. The left-side shots show it at rest and would up.
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Here are a couple shots of the feature unit.
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First of all I see ... is that this is not an original 831. I have a few of them and none of them have 2 beau plugs in the head unit. This has either been converted and using an 831 cabinet, or someone just put the ID plate on the machine, or all of the above. The bottom might be an 831 hopper and reel assembly but I dont believe the top unit is right for an 831.
Dave F
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That's puzzling, because the feature unit has "2296-831-ZZSH" written across the face, and there is a label which identifies it as a model "831-22M". There is also what appears to be a service tag attached to the feature unit that's stamped "831-2296" with "ZZSH" written in pen above it. The number plate identifies the machine as model 831-ZZSH. And the inside of the upper unit does not look as if it's been modified, unless it was done so by a very fastidious worker. I've read that Bally made many sub-models of their machines. Could that account for the different feature unit in this one?
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Its possible ... but a new one for me ... Old Reno should be able to chime in on this ... All I can respond to is what I know ... which I think you were looking for ... advice and an opinion.
Sorry if its not what you expected or lookng for. But thats all I know on this ... keep on looking ...
Dave F
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I am definitely looking for advice, as I'm a novice. I appreciate your input. I'm just trying to provide as much information as I can. I only paid $100 for it, so I have little to lose if it is in fact inauthentic.
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It certainly appears to be an authentic Bally.
Beyond that, I don't know, but all that's important is that it is Bally.
Finding out what Model it is exactly is up to someone who has one like that.
It could have been either a 3 line or 5 line perhaps.
I dunno....
???
Long as it works, that's all.
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That's why I'm hoping that someone with some repair experience on this machine can help me. I'm just not seeing any obviously bent or damaged switch blades, and the problem is very consistent, Since it's been a while since my original post, the problem again is this:
The problem seems to be centered around the payout counter combined with the second reel. If I stop the clock at any point before the second reel indexes, the hopper motor will run continuously until the safety timer shuts it off. However, if I stop the clock right after the second reel indexes (and before the third reel indexes) the machine dispenses the typical (approximately) 56 coins and stops, which is what it does if I don't interfere with the clock at all.
If I manually depress the payout counter reset solenoid, then power up the machine, it will immediately pay out 42 coins. So the extra approximately 14 coins that are paid out when the machine cycles appear to be a function of the time that passes between kickoff, which resets the payout counter, and the indexing of the second reel, which starts the 42-coin "countdown."
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Just for kicks, after it does that next time, push back on the timing bar (over the clock and fan) all the way back and look to see if the big spring is hitting on any of your Reel Mech C stack of switches. I have had that lead to runaway pays. If so, move the stack away from the spring so that it never touches.
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No, there's about 1/8" clearance between the spring and the switches.
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Looked at the photos and in the very top photo "reel switches" I noticed four solder lugs on the top switch blades appear to be touching or very close. It might be just the camera angle, but it wouldn't hurt to separate them a little more.
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I was all ready to confess what an idiot I'd been for not noticing that, but unfortunately when I checked, it's just the angle of the picture.
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Would of been an easy fix.
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Without going back and reading the whole thread, I had an 742, or should say still have a 742 Money Honey that had a similar problem. Every time I would pull the handle the hopper run till it counted 18 coins. I finally found that the machine had a wire pinched between the hopper beau plug and mounting bracket. Once I fix the wire that had grounded out the machine works great. So I would say that you might be facing something similar with yours. It could be any where. Make sure all your plastic insulators are in place on your relays wires and on the door. Also look closely at your two doors molex plugs.
Gary
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I am enjoying this thread so lets throw some ideas out there
I take it that your photos of the hopper were taken after it paid out as your wiper arm is almost at the top
never having had a 831 I take it you can win on all three lines at once?
only 42 coins could represent plums on an all three lines win, if so could you not put a piece of paper under the 14 pay wiper and see if this prevents your hopper from paying out.
is it worth doing that for all payouts so at least your finding which circuit is hot and then work backwards
as I say just throwing some ideas out there
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That's a good idea.. The 831 is a 3 coin 3 line machine, but I don't think you can win on all 3 lines at once. I do know that the 831 should have a seperate relay only for the Plum symbols. I'm trying to remember where it's located? Something's telling me its on or under the hopper.. It should be labeled Plums.. Check to see if its contacts are stuck closed..
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That's a good idea.. The 831 is a 3 coin 3 line machine, but I don't think you can win on all 3 lines at once. I do know that the 831 should have a seperate relay only for the Plum symbols. I'm trying to remember where it's located? Something's telling me its on or under the hopper.. It should be labeled Plums.. Check to see if its contacts are stuck closed..
info on the Plum relay in a Bally 873, might be helpful
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=3823.msg21036#msg21036 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=3823.msg21036#msg21036)
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I'll go through and check for that. It does sound like a vert similar problem. Thanks!
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There is no plum relay under the payout unit.
I tried insulating the 14 wiper as suggested and it had no effect. As soon as the machine is powered on (with the payout counter reset) it pays out 42 coins. I also tried insulating the other wipers. The only way I could prevent the 42 coins from being paid out (or 42 plus, if the machine is cycled without first resetting the payout counter) was to insulate the "F" wiper. In that case, it pays out nothing, not even if there is a winning combination on the reels.
This leads me to believe that all of the payout segments are energized when the machine is reset. Somehow, when the counter advances 42 after reel two indexes, the circuit is opened.
Recall from earlier that the 42 coins are paid out if the machine is powered up with the payout counter reset. If the machine is then played, it begins paying out immediately when the reels are released, and will pay out however many coins it can until reel 2 indexes. Then it will pay out 42 more coins. This usually results in 54-56 coins being payed per play.
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Have you inspected your reels beau plugs wiring for a broken or wire grounding out? Remove the Phillip screws holding the retainers, then pull the plugs forward and inspect the wires.
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I will do that next!
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if your F wire is the only way to stop the hopper running then we could work from there
the reason it happens with the first reel is all your pays come through the 1st reel contact plate so when the hopper pay disc is reset or when coining and then pulling the handle the machine resets the hopper pay board but then starts paying out this being broken by reel 2 indexing
stating the obvious your getting 50 volts to the payout counter disc straight away
looking at the schematics the only other way I can see that happening is through the 777 relay or bar relay but would expect a bigger payout than 42
that's of course if theres no shorted wire, or the wiring on reel 1 is correct
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Just for kicks try putting a piece of paper under each of your outboard wipers to insulate them from the board and see if it still does that.
You have 2 sets of 2 fingers each.
This should help determine if the outboard wipers and high pays are involved in this issue.
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Okay, took a close look at the 4th photo from the top. The Zero switch rubber stop is 90% gone and could be part of the problem.
This is an easy fix. The rubber stopper extends approximately .250 out of the metal holder and about the same inside the holder.
A thick walled vacuum line should do the trick or something to that effect. I cut my piece a little longer and trimmed it to the correct length
after testing it in the machine. Be sure to back out the adjusting screw about 90% as to gain full adjustment later as needed. This is a pretty fine adjustment either way which will be determined by how the machine pays out.