New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => IGT S and S-plus Reel Games => Topic started by: ckape on September 14, 2017, 12:27:00 PM
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Hi All,
Sorry for not having the correct terminology - I am new to the hobby having just purchased my first machine.
So I have an IGT S+ machine that is set up to take $1 CDN coins. It was likely originally set up to take US $1 coins.
When coins are fed through, the CC accepts them and they pass through the Coin Optics and into the hopper as desired. Problem is, after anywhere from 10-14 coins the machine stops provision credits. After a power cycle and door open reset, the machine once again accepts the coins and they go into the hopper for credits, until 10-14 and then no credits again. I have read through many threads and cannot seem to find anything quite like this issue...
Things to consider:
1- The little white button always gives credits when I press it.
2- I have tried a different CC having bought one online thinking this was the original issue, and no difference
3- I have tried many different coins in the CC - no difference
4- I have played with the logic, i.e. when it first starts up and accepts coins, I would "Cash Out" any credits won or not "Cash out"... either way, it would stop providing credits after about 14 coins manually inserted.
5- I have cleaned the CC and the optics as best I could (can I do a better job?)
6- I have ordered a Coin Optics new insert guide. I realize the one in there is likely for a larger coin, so this might help. However, I have managed to reduce the size of the current guide for the one in there now so that it is just big enough for the $1 coin to pass through and hit the 3 optics. Even with this reduced channel, it is not working. (I used little velcro wire ties quite effectively for this).
Not sure what else to do? Any suggestions...
Thanks!
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Welcome to NLG website ! :wave:
Just to be clear about the problem,,,
Do you mean that after inserting coins and playing (spinning the reels) for 10-14 times and all works correctly, then the machine will still accept coins after that (they go to the hopper) but the machine does not give you a credit for that coin?
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It will depend on how many credits are played per spin, but yes, it could be as low as 5 spins (2 credits each) or as high as 14 spins (1 credit each)... It is not a spin issue (or seemingly)... it is always between 10-14 coins physically inserted...
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Can you describe your machine, is it a 2 coin or 3 coin max game (or other)? Is this a multi-line game?
Maybe post a photo of it so we can see what you have, that could narrow down the possibilities on your problem. Thanks!
Also, if you can post a photo of your mpu board showing your game chips we would know better what your machine preference settings offer. If you'd rather not pull the mpu for a photo there is a way to go into the setup menus by using the white TEST button inside and have the machine show you on the front display what your game software numbers are. Specifically, it could be helpful to know the SS chip and SP chip numbers. They are both in sockets on the mpu board.
From your description it sounds to me like the coin comparitor and coin optics are working ok. Perhaps this has something to do with one of the preference settings in the machines setup menu.
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a NORMAL operating machine will only allow the max.number of coins in per the glass scheme. if its a 2 coin multiplier, then it should only accept 2 coins, all others will be rejected, likewise if its a 3 coin multiplier it will only accept 3 coins, the rest will be sent back to the coin tray. on occasion a machine will accept coin overages ( when inserted fast) but after the game is complete, the hopper will turn on and pay those overages back to the customer.
on normal S+ machines you cannot accumulate credits by inserting coins.
hope this helps
Jim
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Rokgpsman - thanks for the response. The machine is as follows:
- IGT S+
- Balloon Bars
- 1 payline
- 2 coin max per spin
I attach pictures of the chipset and machine.
Hi Jim- thanks for the reply, but that is not the issue I am having.
I did two more tests... it seems to stop converting coins to credit after 14 coins. regardless of how many coins per spin or cash outs... it is 14 coins in and then stops. The rest of the coins just fall to the hopper until I do a power off and door open reset...
Thanks!
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what are the limits set to in test #7 ???
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Hi Jim - I just played with that. It was at 300 (each) and I changed it to 500. No effect.
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You may have already seen this information, it doesn't pertain to your problem but is nice to know about a machine that you own:
http://www.newlifegames.net/igtbible/IGT%202CM/Game%20Library%20-%20S-Plus%20-%20Ballon%20Bars%20(2%20Coin%20Multiplier).htm (http://www.newlifegames.net/igtbible/IGT%202CM/Game%20Library%20-%20S-Plus%20-%20Ballon%20Bars%20(2%20Coin%20Multiplier).htm)
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This is an interesting problem on your machine, I will be curious to find out what the answer is. Attached below is the document for the SP1019 chip in this machine, in case it is helpful for this problem.
Here are some of the user settings for SP1019, I think you have already checked menu page 7, it has 3 options you can set.
Also, there is something called "player selectable credit" on menu page 0, option 5:
(click image to enlarge)
(https://s26.postimg.org/py2akbp6h/SP1019_settings.jpg)
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Hi Jim - I just played with that. It was at 300 (each) and I changed it to 500. No effect.
Did you check all 3 of the settings at step 7, not just the first one or two? (7.1, 7.2, 7.3)
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Hi Rokgspman - thanks for the information...
yes. all three were checked. I made them all 500, but can make them something else if that would help.
It figures I would start this hobby and have something unusual like this happen to me.... sorry of my life!
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I know this may sound like a moot question.......But you have no credits on the machine when making changes and saving the changes when you are done?
Dave
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Odd one for me, that's for sure, but there's quite a few S+ experts here and some of them don't login until later so let's see how this works out.
In your first post you said you might not have all the terminology correct, so I want to repeat what I think you are saying, correct me if needed.
You never insert more than 1 or 2 coins at a time, then you spin the reels. The machine plays fine until after you have played enough times that 10-14 coins have been inserted. After that when you insert 1 or 2 coins they get accepted and go into the coin hopper inside the machine but you do not get any credits on the machine. You have to turn the machine off and then back on to play again.
[the reason I'm emphasizing this is that sometimes a person thinks they can insert a bunch of coins one after the other and add a bunch of credits, then play for a while without inserting more coins. In general an S+ will not accept any additional coins past the max shown on the glass, which is 2 coins on your machine. An exception is something called Montana credits but that doesn't apply here as far as I know).
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You can use SP1137 for type 0, 1, 4, 5, 12 & 14 games. Balloon Bars is type 1. I would clear the ram, change the SP, then set the denom for the BV. Set 15 will accomplish this. Set 86 is required for some advanced options but doubt you would need for home game. SP1137 will accept the first coins inserted to game (2 in your case) then credit other coins to the meter up to the hopper limit. I prefer this SP when applicable. Our old friend Buzz turned me on to this several years ago.
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Rokgpsman- yes, that is exactly it
Shaggy- there are no credits in the machine
RB- I really wish I knew enough to decipher what you are saying! Lol. I will try to figure it out when near a computer (on my cell now) but if you have a more detailed step by step I would try it!
Thanks
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You have 2 important chips on your mpu board (the main circuit board in the machine). These 2 chips are what contain the game software for your machine. They both have numbers to identify them. One is the SP1019 chip, the other is the SS3994 chip. The SP chip (also called the GAME chip) is sort of like the overall operating software and the SS chip (also called the REEL chip) is the specific software for the Balloon Bars game. You can use different versions of SP chips in your machine as long as they are compatible with the SS chip (that characteristic is called the game "Type"), it will still be the same Balloon Bars game. Sometimes newer versions of the SP chips correct bugs in earlier versions, or they add features to improve things. You can remove the SP1019 chip from its socket and plug in another SP chip such as the SP1137 chip. Sometimes when a problem is weird and has no apparent reason for what it is doing you can try things that weren't on the first list of ideas. Another thing to consider doing is a ram CLEAR process, for that you will need the CLEAR chip. But I wouldn't do that unless someone here recommends it because then you will need to go thru setting up the preference settings and that can get cumbersome and be a chore.
I don't know if any of that would correct your problem or not, but that's a start on understanding your machine's game software.
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In the downloads section you should be able to find Rons R273's S+ quick reference XLS sheets. These help you decifer the PAR and PSR sheets and make setting up the options on your S+ easy.
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roksgpsman - thanks, I am going to find those chips for sale somewhere and change them anyways... sounds like mine are old and there are newer versions...
jay - thank you, going to look.
Still no resolution - will keep trying different options while I wait for new Chipset.
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roksgpsman - thanks, I am going to find those chips for sale somewhere and change them anyways... sounds like mine are old and there are newer versions...
jay - thank you, going to look.
Still no resolution - will keep trying different options while I wait for new Chipset.
You could send a pm to RB (see his post #14 above), he may have parts for what you want to try. If not there are several other sources here on NLG to get those chips, also from slot machine businesses on the internet, ebay, etc. Whoever you get the SP chip from, ask them about getting a CLEAR and SET chip, I believe you may need them if you replace the SP chip but I'm not certain about that. No need to find that out later and have two different orders with more shipping costs. The SET chip is primarily needed if you have a bill validator, doing a CLEAR (and maybe installing a new SP chip) resets many of the settings back to default values, one of which is to disable the bill validator. So often a SET chip and CLEAR chip are bought together, just in case. Ask any questions you may have about this stuff, the folks here will help as much as they can.
Good Luck and keep us posted, we can all learn something on this one!
(click image to enlarge)
(https://s26.postimg.org/8k45tjpkp/IMG_0646_z2.jpg)
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This whole thing is really odd. Are you able to take a short video showing what is happening, and upload that to YouTube?
You're saying that the coins inserted after the first 14 go to the hopper, but you don't get credit for them (ie. the machine "eats" the coins)?
There's certainly no setting that would affect that.
My gut feeling is that there's a bad component in your machine (either on the MPU board or on the coin-in optics board) that is causing the credits to stop registering once it warms up. When you power cycle the machine it cools off again and then works normally.
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Thanks Kevin
Here's a video.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwXVxDYPDRU#)
It doesn't matter if I win credits or not , cash them out or not, or what happens in the game play. After 14 coins in (1 or 2 at a time), it stops giving me credits for the coins as seen in the video. The coins go to the hopper but no credit awarded.
Any other ideas? It is really confusing...
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It's haunted. I would try a ram clear and reset the machine parameters back up.
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I somewhat misunderstood your original post. After watching your video, your coins are going to game play not to "credit". You are inserting only 1 or 2 coins at a time. I was under the assumption that you was inserting 10-14 coins at once. The third & subsequent coins should be returned as Jim mentions. The SP1137 I spoke of allows additional cons to be counted on the credit meter (coins to credit). With that out of the way, I would definitely start with the coin optic board. It's the most obvious but still could be something with the comparator itself or even the mpu as knagl pointed out. With zero credits on the machine, open the door, power up, let it warm up a bit. Push the test button on the optic board repeatedly & see if it give credits for every button push or if it quits after 14. These test mode credits will disappear when the door is closed.
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Thanks to all that have tried to help so far...
Here is a little update:
1- Today I tried to switch coin size. The coin channel in the optics is larger so I thought maybe it's had enough of the smaller coin and just gives up. I put in a two $CDN Coin, filled the hooper with them, changed the coin in the comparator, and no change. After 14 coins in, it just stops crediting coins.
2- I took RB's suggestion and let the machine warm up first. It sat for 20 minutes powered on before I started to play. Same thing... 14 coins in and then no credit afterwards.
3- I can test the test credit button on the coin optics for one or two credits and spin as many times as I want. There is no limit.
4- When I took out the hopper, I ended up reseating every cable into the MPU. I also air cleaned every connector, the board etc, and reconnected everything. Same thing.
Here's a couple of questions if anybody knows the answers:
1- Is there something that the bill validate can have an effect on? I don't use it. Can I turn it off completely to eliminate it and how?
2- Is there some sort of tournament mode that the machine can go into? Like you get 14 coin-in credits and have to accumulate as many credits as possible through game play and thus my machine is somehow programmed for this? I believe the answer is no, just confirming cause I have never seen an option like that...
I do not think changing the SP chip will work. Perhaps a RAM Clear would work but I have no idea how to do it (and I think you need a chip for that too?). It may be an MPU issue or a coin optics issue as well. I will try to replace the coin optics with another machine to start... If not that, I do not think I want to buy and replace the entire MPU, do i?
Terrible that this is happening on my first machine, but I guess it is a great intro into troubleshooting and learning how everything works...
Thanks to all for your help so far...
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The tournament option is something I thought about too. I looked at the PSR for the SP 1019, it doesn't list a tournament setting for that game chip. There are dip switches on the MPU board. Generally the first 4 are switched on and the last 4 off. This allows programmable credit limits, reel sounds, game speed and no progressive. I can't see that it could cause this problem, but this is a real stumper. I'm thinking a corrupted chip or an MPU problem. The B/V shouldn't cause a problem with coin acceptance as it is independent. If it doesn't work already, it likely hasn't been enabled and the machine will work without it. The Ram clear may fix the issue. And yes, you will need a clear chip. I'll post the procedure for using the clear (IVC) 123 chip. Let's do that as a last resort, although it's beginning to look like an option. This is a way to learn about that new machine. Stick with it, you'll get it. Let's see if there are some more ideas before clearing.
Dave
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=15747.msg84153#msg84153 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=15747.msg84153#msg84153)
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BV has nothing to do with this. If the unit is a DBV model there is a white connector on the left side .. disconnect it and that will eliminate the power to it. If you do a ram clear there wont be a com signal any longer with the BV -- but power to it will make it initialize. If it is a WBA unit .. two wire connector in the back of the BV frame is the power. Behind silver box on left side of BV. If you want the com signal back then you also need a set chip for that.
No tournament feature with your chips as you thought.
Changing the SP is unlikely to make any changes.
It's haunted .. I would do a ram clear then go from there. Someone on here will send you a message that will sell you a chip .. maybe instructions too .. but people here will help.
Could be a MPU issue.
Unlikely the coin in optics are causing this.
EDIT -- I know Shaggy just overlooked this since he is usually on top of this stuff ... your board won't have dip switches since it is a 16mHz board.
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I just looked up the SP1019 PSR. I didn't realize we were dealing with a 16mhz mpu either. Here is a couple links explaining clear chip procedure. You will not need a set chip if you do not wish to enable the BV. I can send you a clear chip. PM me if interested.
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=16134.msg86119#msg86119 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=16134.msg86119#msg86119)
http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=15747.msg84153#msg84153 (http://newlifegames.com/nlg/index.php?topic=15747.msg84153#msg84153)
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Thanks for the video.
That is positively bizarre, especially with it being repeatable.
I concur with the others -- try doing a RAM clear with a clear chip -- not much to lose at this point, and I'm otherwise out of ideas.
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EDIT -- I know Shaggy just overlooked this since he is usually on top of this stuff ... your board won't have dip switches since it is a 16mHz board.
Yep I dropped the ball there. Didn't even catch it. Thanks, Ken.
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I missed the part where it was determined the mpu is a 16mhz board instead of a 10mhz, how do we know that without a photo of the mpu?
Also, aren't there sometimes weird problems that occur when SP or SS chips made for 10mhz bards are used in 16mhz boards, or vice-versa?
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Well I goofed up twice. The SP chip list in the S+ forum lists it as a 16 Mhz and the PSR also lists it right in the first few lines. I was so wrapped up looking for a tournament option, I just went right by it. I've never swapped the 10s and 16s but I've always heard it won't work. Now there was no picture or anything so we're all going on the SP chip. Now if it is a 10 Mhz board..............like I said I've never done it so I don't know. He can check and see real quick if it has the volume knob or not. I've just always heard it won't work.
Dave
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Another cue that it is a 16 board .. listen to the reel sounds in the posted video .. won't hear those sounds on a 10
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Another cue that it is a 16 board .. listen to the reel sounds in the posted video .. won't hear those sounds on a 10
Does the 16mhz board has sound capability that the 10mhz board doesn't have? Can the Balloon Bars game (SS chip) be used on a 10hmz board with the proper 10mhz SP chip? This is just for my education, probably not related to the problem on this machine.
(when I watched his video earlier I had the sound turned off, cat was sleeping by the computer) :garfield:
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Another cue that it is a 16 board .. listen to the reel sounds in the posted video .. won't hear those sounds on a 10
Does the 16mhz board has sound capability that the 10mhz board doesn't have? Can the Balloon Bars game (SS chip) be used on a 10hmz board with the proper 10mhz SP chip? This is just for my education, probably not related to the problem on this machine.
(when I watched his video earlier I had the sound turned off, cat was sleeping by the computer) :garfield:
BTW -- his machine boots and play so it's not an issue with the chips on the board.
Hopefully this helps.
The 16 board I believe was designed for the S+ barcrest machines.
It has it's own dedicated sounds. The sound volume adjustment is done in the programming (3-x). Use the buttons to adjust the volume up and down. Usually 3-3 is good for most people.
I think you are headed in the right direction with your thoughts. A 10 board needs a SP that matches the board and game type and likewise for the 16 board. On a 10 board, the SP for a Double Diamond won't work with a Haywire game which needs a different SP type. The 16 board is the same. Have to have the matching SP to the game. Either board can use the same SS chips to play the same game. I hope this is understandable.
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..... I think you are headed in the right direction with your thoughts. A 10 board needs a SP that matches the board and game type and likewise for the 16 board. On a 10 board, the SP for a Double Diamond won't work with a Haywire game which needs a different SP type. The 16 board is the same. Have to have the matching SP to the game. Either board can use the same SS chips to play the same game. I hope this is understandable.
It is, thanks for explanation! If someone takes SP and SS chips from a working 10mhz board and installs them into a 16mhz board and installs that 16mhz board into the machine what happens when they try to run the game? When the SP chip is mis-matched with the mpu board then the machine won't boot? (no weird problems, it just won't start up?)
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Only if the memory was like getting back on a bike and being able to ride again. Probably been at least 10 years since I have done anything with a 16 board. I don't remember the exact symptoms. The machine will somehow let you know it doesn't like it and if it does try to play -- it's gonna be oh no F'n way am I going to like this -- you will have to get the right SP chip.
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one interesting item you posted in reply#24, you can use the test button on the optic board and it works as many times ---no limit. I would like you to wait until the machine is no longer accepting coins, no preform the coin optic test, 10_1. 11_1 and 12_1. use a Popsicle stick or something to insert into the black encoder and block each optic and observe the display, 10_1 should change to a 10_0 when the stick is blocking one of the three optics, 11_1 will change to 11_0 with the stick and when the button is pressed, 12_1 should change to 12_0 with the stick, if 10_1 never changes, remove Q-2 on the optic board, this will take a counter out of the circuit and remove a ground from Q-2 WHICH IS SHORTING OUT THE OPTIC signal. since the button works with no limit, that tells me the rest of the machine is working as it should, since the coins are being accepted and sent to the hopper tells me the cc- is doing what it should be doing, the optics are the only thing suspect at this time.
I have tested optics available if you need them. also have any type encoder you might need.
hope this helps
Jim
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Thanks to everyone for input... I have RAM Clear chips coming (just had to pay a pal for shipping) and will try them on the weekend (I should get them on Friday). I will let everyone know if that does it...
If it doesn't, I am swapping the MPU with another 16Mhz board.
Then, I'm out of ideas...
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It is, thanks for explanation! If someone takes SP and SS chips from a working 10mhz board and installs them into a 16mhz board and installs that 16mhz board into the machine what happens when they try to run the game? When the SP chip is mis-matched with the mpu board then the machine won't boot? (no weird problems, it just won't start up?)
Only if the memory was like getting back on a bike and being able to ride again. Probably been at least 10 years since I have done anything with a 16 board. I don't remember the exact symptoms. The machine will somehow let you know it doesn't like it and if it does try to play -- it's gonna be oh no F'n way am I going to like this -- you will have to get the right SP chip.
The reels get all funky and spin/vibrate very strangely. You'd know if you had the wrong chips in.
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Hi All,
So I finally got around to doing a RAM CLEAR And BV Set on this machine, and unfortunately, it did NOT work! Oh well...
Now we are back to trying new things. I believe the next step would be to try a new MPU.
After the new motherboard, I would be really out of ideas...
Thanks again for your help.
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Can you post a photo of your mpu board? We haven't seen it, maybe there would be something someone sees that will lead to a solution or suggestion about your problem.
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Ckape, If you want to buy an MPU board, you can post a WTB in the classifieds. Non contributing members are allowed to post for buying (not selling) as this can benefit our vendors.
Dave
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Here is a photo pf my MPU Board. Does anybody know what type it is such that I can seek out a new one?
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It's a 16Mhz S+ MPU. We have vendors on the home page who should have what you need.
Dave
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Any updates?
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if the machine works as advertised using the credit button on the coin optic board then its not the board or motherboard, its not the bv unit, its not the cc-16, it has to be the coin optics board. its the only board that actually counts the number of coins as they pass through the cc-16, if the counters differ in a check sum balance they will shut down the optics, thus your situation, after a certain number of coins counted, the coins are accepted(cc-16 working) the coins pass through the optics(coins not seen going through the optics) and they end up in the hopper.
hope this helps
Jim