809-ZH mystery machine

[jerseymike]

Hi there,  I’m a new member who just came into possession of this machine.  It’s a basket case.  Going thru it I’ve found all kinds of strange things.   It’s obviously been pieced together.  Here are some pics to look at.  I’m hoping anyone can help identify the upper odds unit.  It says 822 but I can’t find any info that Bally even made a model 822.  Any observations would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[jerseymike]

I’ve done some digging thru the schematics and documents and I found that the reel assembly is a 5 cent variation of 809-ZH.  It was converted to 25c at some point.  I’m not going to switch it back to nickels.  I’d like too but the coin mechanism is for quarters.  So I’m going to stick with that.  My next step is to identify the odds multiplier unit.  Does anyone know anything?  Where can I look to identify it?

[Pinballwizard55]

It could be another head unit from a similar one line/five coin multiplier. I have worked on these machines many times in the past and getting the pays to be precise can sometimes be troublesome. Good luck either way. The wizard.

[wolftalk]

bally model 822 was a bingo pinball machine called "big wheel" ... so safe to ignore the 822 marking.

the 809-ZH had a lot of variations for payback percentage and coin denomination, but they are basically the same machine. 

The reel tapes were different because they had symbols like 2.50 and 5.00 on them.  The slotted reel index discs were different between the 82% payback and 87% payback machines.

changing denomination .... the coin mech is easy.  Some of the other coin pieces and reel tapes not so easy to get the parts.

the odds multiplier unit was used in one style of multiplier machine.  All 809s afaik used an odds disc and stepper units that look similar to pinball machine score reels and that looks consistent with your pics.

I do have an early schematic for the 809-ZH ... w-1046-765.  It was superceded by w-1046-1803 which I don't have.   Usually they updated the schem when they switched to the new style hopper or to molex plugs instead of jones plugs.

your odds unit is probably w-1090-2, but that's unconfirmed.  If you can email slotpics@cdyn.com the highest possible resolution pictures of both sides of both stepper units, including enough of the wiring attached to the lugs to see the wire colors, that'll help.

schem is posted on the https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ dumping ground.

email or stick on a cloud drive as many pics as you like of various parts of the game, including the entire front with the glass installed so the pay table can be seen.  Unfortunately, size limits on NLG makes it a less useful place for pictures.

[jerseymike]

Thanks for insight.  I really appreciate it.  I’ve narrowed it down and I’ve identified my disks as the 87.5 percent payout 5 cent variation.  They have $2.50 symbols on them.  They were taped over with cherry and bell and $5.00 symbols??? 

I’ve sorted out the reel tapes and they are aligned correctly with the slots in the disk.  The reel mechanism works.  It can be spun and the reels stop randomly as they should.  I also adjusted the wipers.  Next up is rewiring.  There are loose wires everywhere and I need match each one with a schematic.  I’ve been using 1804 because I could not find 1803.  So far most of it matches up, 

So far the biggest surprise was that I found small bolts clamped in some of the disk slots.  Why would someone do that?  Other than the obvious of course…

More pics tomorrow!

[shortrackskater]

Post a photo of the bolts in the disk slots please!
I always wanted to buy a machine and find something like that.

[jerseymike]

Here are pictures of the reels and one of the bolts I removed at the slot it was in.    You can see on the middle index disk the bolt chewed up the slot a little. 

[DavidLee]

Thanks for the cheater plug photos.
Which slot was blocked out?
Low or high pay.

Got a machine similar to that one someplace.
I’ll take a look. Might be able to help sort out your situation.

[wolftalk]

Thanks for insight.  I really appreciate it.  I’ve narrowed it down and I’ve identified my disks as the 87.5 percent payout 5 cent variation.  They have $2.50 symbols on them.  They were taped over with cherry and bell and $5.00 symbols??? 

I’ve sorted out the reel tapes and they are aligned correctly with the slots in the disk.  The reel mechanism works.  It can be spun and the reels stop randomly as they should.  I also adjusted the wipers.  Next up is rewiring.  There are loose wires everywhere and I need match each one with a schematic.  I’ve been using 1804 because I could not find 1803.  So far most of it matches up, 

So far the biggest surprise was that I found small bolts clamped in some of the disk slots.  Why would someone do that?  Other than the obvious of course…

More pics tomorrow!

the $2.50 symbols go with the 5c machine.  10c used $5.00 and 25c used $12.50

I uploaded the missing reel tape and index disk definitions that go with the 87% games.

the slot depth needs to match the tape symbol so the wipers are positioned correctly.  If they changed a symbol, making the slot shallower with a bolt is one hack.

[jerseymike]

     Here are some more shots of the machine.       

     The reel tapes were doctored as well.  I've already cleaned them, so unfortunately I have no pictures.   Some of the symbols were covered with black tape. The effect was very good.  The black coverup tape matched the reel tape almost exactly.   Cherries were also added to two of the reels even though there is no cherry on the pay chart. 

     Now I'm interested in where this thing came from.   I keep seeing this model was for the Lady Luck.    Can I assume this is where the machine started its life?  I certainly hope so.  LOL.

     Now if anyone has a bellyglass from the lady luck PLEASE contact me.  I saw one on an ebay postcard that said "call change girl for free drinks"   

***Thanks wolftalk for the uploads of the tapes and proper schematic*** 

[jerseymike]

Where I'm at now.

The coin switch is bad.  When I removed it for testing I could hear loose metal inside.  Touching all three wires together triggers the multiplier and releases the handle.

The machine doesn't pay at all.   Every few spins the hopper "mixes" during the spin, yet no coins come out.   

I doesn't matter if its a winner or not the machine is simply not spitting out quarters.   

[wolftalk]

the coin switch connects yellow wire 30 to blue/yellow wire 23-1 when the tripwire is down, and wire 30 to orange/green wire 74-1 when up.

it doesn't connect all three together at the same time.  It's not a big deal if it does, but you may get the first "coin" registering like two coins.

the hopper mixer relay powers when reel one lands on a blank that positions the wipers on the "HR" row on the wiper board.  That runs the hopper motor, but the override solenoid is not powered so coins deflect back into the hopper.  The idea was to level the coins in the hopper on machines that didn't pay too frequently.

for a win, you need wire to connect thru the reel wipers to a trace on the payout counter disc.  When the payout counter is reset, the wipers will connect the trace to wire 93 and power the payout relay.  Payout relay turns on the hopper motor and override solenoid, and as coins are ejected the payout wipers step up until they step off the end of the trace and the circuit is broken.

make sure the payout counter is reset, and then you can use a voltmeter with one probe on wire 70 and the other probe poking along the wire 90->93 path to see where the issue is.

I usually clip a probe on a trace on the payout counter, shove the hopper back in and set up a win that should power the trace.  If you don't see 50VAC, then either the reel wipers have an issue or wire 90 isn't good.  Move probe to wire 90 on reel 3 and see if you have 50V.

if you have 50V on wire 90 but it's not showing up on the payout counter trace, either the plug connections are bad or the reel wipers are cruddy/misaligned.  On games without diodes like yours, you can pull the reel mech and use an ohmeter with a probe on wire 90 and other probe along the path to the payout disc wire to see where the circuit is broken.

finding a lady luck belly glass won't be easy.  You'll want to measure your frame area to get the dimensions since there's a few different sizes.

is the top glass pay info for the $12.50 symbols just covered in tape, or did they scratch out the ink and paint the back side black?   You may have to make reel tapes if you can't find the right ones ... tho I guess you can live with the tapes saying $2.50 instead of $12.50

[jerseymike]

     Before I start tracing wires with my multi-meter I'd like to sort this one issue.  Its a loose yellow and brown wire on the hopper (36).   It's attached to the plug pin #7 and the other end is loose.  Any ideas where it goes.  I've tried to trace it on the schematic but I'm at a loss. 

The pictures here at of the loose wire and some shots of the hopper.


My upper glass has had the ink scraped to remove the 2.50 symbols then it was taped over. 

My belly glass measures 15 inches wide by 8 inches high.

*edit  I have no idea why my pictures are being rotated.  They are right side up on my computer before I attach them.

[wolftalk]

the plug chart on the schem says hopper pin 7 is wire 36-1.

then ya hunt around and find it at H-6 ... and it goes between reel mech c-2, a coin relay switch and an open-at-4th odds unit switch (open-at-4th is the top step of the odds unit ... 5 coins played).

so, why is the wire on the hopper when it doesn't go anyplace on the hopper?  I have no idea.

what's in the area reachable by the end of the wire?

sometimes meters were mounted on the hopper, but I don't see any obvious way to use a meter with wire 36-1.

[jerseymike]

thanks for working with me here.

Where is the open at 4th odds unit switch located?  is it in the hopper?

There is no 36-2 printed on the schematic that I could find, but there is a 36-3 up top in the feature unit?

I'm sorry I couldn't follow your testing procedures that you wrote up.  I'm confused as to what you mean by a trace on the payout disk. 

To be clear no winners are paying out.  The machine is silent when it should be paying out.  I'm hearing no click or anything.   

 

[DavidLee]

Try this regarding no payout.

Set the reels to a payout.
Check for continuity across the reel wiper boards
Hook one lead from the meter to the solid gray wire 3rd reel wiper.
Check for continuity from 3 to 2 then 1 wiper board.
The wiper contacts need to be clean and aligned to activate the payout step unit.

The coin switch operates as you mentioned.
Coin depresses the switch to release the coin relay.
When the switch returns it trips the handle release.
These small switches aren’t to hard to fine.

4th coin 0 switch I believe is in the top unit.

[jerseymike]

Ahh now I think I get it.  The gray wire (90) is the one that “lines up” on a winner and moves 50v to the next step in the process.

[jerseymike]

OK,

I've aligned the wipers so they are making good contact with the the center of their prescribed dots.

I've checked continuity (with a winning combo) between each of the reel wiper boards and the solid gray wire(90)...all good

Next I then hoooked up my volt meter to the gray wire and a yellow common.  I got 50v.   When I checked between gray and orange I got nothing.   

[jerseymike]

Progress.

I was able to measure voltage at a winning trace on counter.  It read 50v.

Then I thought about what DavidLee said about the coin switch.  That it needed to return.  so I after I simulated a coin by touching the loose switch wires I reconnected just the yellow and orange wires then and spun the wheel to a winner. 

Bingo!   The hopper paid! 

Thanks to you all!!!!   There is no way I'd have done this without you.   Now I just need to wait for my new switch to come in and work on the cosmetics.    I'll post some pics once its more presentable.

[wolftalk]

wrt wire 36-2, looks like you found a schematic error.

there's a wire 38-2 connecting the odds disc to the #1 odds lamp (6V circuit), and a 38-2 going from a payout counter step-up arm switch to jackpot relay switches (in the 50V count unit step-up coil circuit).

since the hopper plug chart shows a 38-2 and the 1090-2 odds unit blueprint shows a 38-2, they really blew it.  The 38-2 on the hopper plug is out of sequence on the pins, so it was added after the initial design was done.

a picture of the payout counter on an 809-N confirms a yellow/black wire, so looks like they goofed the numbering and the 50V wire should be 38-3 (or whatever is next highest available number ... there's already 38 and 38-1 wires in the game).

sometimes there's holes in the wire id numbering sequence.  The schems were done in the days before computer aided design.  They often took previous schematics and made changes for a new game.  You can see on some schems where they used white-out to paint over unneeded circuits when an eraser wouldn't work well enough.

they didn't renumber wire ids when they erased one ... as long as the ids are unique, the number doesn't really matter.  Whether a 36-2 existed on some game or it's part of the muddle with the 38 misnumbering, dunno.