Bally Super Continental [Model 891-20] no payout / winner light on all the time

[henko666]

Thank you for your suggestions, to be honest I’m starting to lose hope a little bit here. Forget what I last posted about the fuse blowing right away when machine starts, it was a rookie mistake which I have fixed. The fuse just like before blows when a “winner” appears on the wheels. If I pull out the hopper and set up a win, the fuse does NOT blow. If I have the hopper in and set up a cherry win and isolate the first contact from the bottom (which is the one who get powered by a cherry win) the fuse does not blow. If I for example set up 3 oranges win and only have first contact from the bottom isolated the fuse blows but if I isolate the second from the bottom (which is the one who gets powered by 3 oranges win) the fuse does not blow. So, it doesn’t matter which win I set up, as soon as the wiper fingers get powered against the pay out counter on the hopper the fuse blows. I again checked all the coils (including pay out relay coil) on the hopper (when its out) with lab cables and giving them power and they all work. Also tested all the coils in top unit (including pay out relay coil) and they work fine. I have tried to locate where the short circuit happens but have not seen any flash or anything similar or any place where it appears to happen where its blackened. I changed the diod on the payout relay coil but that did not help.  DavidLee I have not replaced the anti cheat coil just bypassed it with the instructions Wolftalk gave me and that seems to work fine since the tilt light now is turned off straight away when I start the machine. The thing is when I get or set up an win I don’t think any of the relays and coils gets activated before the fuse blows so the short circuit happens before or when a relay is being activated. If I set up an win it's “dead” silent, only a little flash of all the lamps and then one second later the fuse blows. The other “strange” thing is that if I turn the payout counter by hand it does not reset on the next pull like it should so the winner light stays on until I manually reset it by hand. I checked all the contacts in beau plugs and cleaned them also.

[mark the spark]

it can be dishearting when starting out trying to use correct terms i always get that wrong but i know what i mean
so your problem if i understand is the fuse blows before any payout
but if you isolate the fingers its ok but doesnt blow the fuses, the hopper reset (from memory) is done through the b mech switch should close when you pull the arm
i have changed out the 50volt fuse for a circuit breaker this helps when your going through loads of fuses i stuck a breaker of the correct amperage on
the fuse only blows on a win so the payout disc powers the payout relay which in turn powers the hopper motor  also in there is the timer circuit(nothing stuck in there sometimes you can get coins stuck in there when machines have been moved)
recheck the wiring from the payout card to the payout coil
perhaps you could slip paper between the contacts on the payout coil see if its blowing a fuse then

[wolftalk]

perhaps you could slip paper between the contacts on the payout coil see if its blowing a fuse then

yup!  Since you can work with the hopper out, I'd stick individual pieces of paper between the switches on both payout relays so they won't do anything when the relays power.

when you have a winner and allow the payout counter wiper fingers to make contact, both payout relays should power but nothing else happens.  If you get that far, you can pull the pieces of paper out one at a time and see which one causes the breaker to trip.

[henko666]

I put paper between every switch on both relays so there cant be any conatct at any of the payout relays and the fuse still blows. So the fuse blows before any of the payout relays are activated and that is what suits with what I said that the machine is "dead quiet" before the fuse blows, I never hear any relay activate.

[wolftalk]

ok, so something connected to wire 93 has a problem, or wire 93 has a short.

if you are stuck, then disconnect wire 93 from the hopper plug and see what happens.  You need to know if the problem is on the hopper.

how did you test the payout relay coils ... especially the one on the hopper?  If you were jumpering wire 30 to the wire on the coils that wasn't orange wire 70, then the fuse should have blown if the hopper was cabled to the game.

btw, there isn't a diode on the payout relay (hopper).  The relay with the diode on the hopper is the delay relay.  The payout relay is on the back of the hopper (I think).  Has orange and grey/yellow wires on the coil.

[henko666]

To test the coil I took out the hopper an used cables from the door, wire 70 orange and 30 yellow, the coil fires. All the coils are tested this way on hopper,reel mech and top unit. Wire 93 is grey/yellow right?

[DavidLee]

On a winning payout, I believe the first thing that happens is the hopper motor starts.
This is accomplished when a winning combination passes through the payout counter disc.
Then travels to the payout relay starting the hopper motor.
Mechanically the hopper advances the payout unit until the contacts run off the corresponding payout.
The disc strip not associated with a winning payout is most likely to one that feeds power to the payout relay.


Secondary
Has the payout step up unit been inspected?
Remove the top screw and loosen the bottom one.
Rotate the unit out at the top and down.
Inspect every wire connection for proper placement.
 Check for hardware and or solid slag that could cause a short.
Look for burn marks.
Inspect the wire bundle to the beau plug and all solder joints.
Check for foreign metallic objects within the beau plug solder connectors.

[wolftalk]

yes, wire 93 is grey/yellow.

if powering each coil works when it's out of circuit without tripping the breaker, either the plug connection is causing the issue or powering all the stuff connected to wire 93 at the same time is over the current limit.

got a meter that reads current?  May be work inserting into the circuit and test the two payout relays ... or disconnect wire 93 from the hopper plug and shove the hopper back in.  That'll tell you if the problem is on the hopper.

[henko666]

I got the hoppper to pay out! But it makes no sence to me why or maybe it does OK so the short associated with wire 93 eventually broke a connection on the payout board on the hoppper (see picture). I noticed it was getting darker there every time a short was happening and eventually the connection on that spot broke and the machine started right away to pay out. This means after this happend the connection to the contacts by 250 and 200 are now not connected (see other picture) to wire 93, the contact at the top right side goes to the white wire which goes to the bottom right contacts (see arrow on picture). It could have been that the contact (the one by the short) was bent not to touch and I at some point when I just got the machine bent it back so it made contact, i dont remember but with that contact "not now having connection" to wire 93 the payout works! Anyhow I tried all kind of wins and they pay correctly on one coin game. But if I play 2 to 6 coins the multiplier dont work, it still pays out for one coin game. So my question is does "broken connection" on payout board maybe have something to do with multiplier (wins on coins 2-6)? Or is the underpay issue an other issue maybe in the top unit?  I can see the light in the end of the tunnel finally PS I also tested the machine in "credit mode" and that works too, the pays go to credit meter instead of the hopper but same problem there as in coin mode that it pays out for 1 credit even thou I played 2-6 credits.

[Chris-socal]

I don’t work on EM machines but this has been fascinating to follow. The mechanics are amazing and the amount of detail you have access to is impressive. I was excited to see that you got pay out resolved, hopefully you can get the multiplier working and post a video of the finished product.

[DavidLee]

Additional coins activate the odds unit step up relay.
Try manually stepping up the odds unit, then activate the coin in switch.
Observe what happens. It should reset to one coin in.
Activate the coin switch again while observing the switches in the top unit.
This will give some direction.
Possibly cleaning the relay contacts and the step up unit contacts could solve the problem.
Then check contacts for continuity in their closed position.

[wolftalk]

you can repair the blown trace with a wire since the wipers fingers don't reach that area.

the problem is probably not wire 93.  Is the wire on the 200 trace 75 (orange/white) or 53 (white/yellow)?  May not matter much, in either case it probably goes to the odds unit disc.  When playing one coin it doesn't connect anywhere on the odds disc via wipers.  That implies a short on the wiring, disc, replay/payout key switches, or jackpot lockup relay switch.

got pictures of the odds disc wipers, jackpot relay switches and payout/replay key switches?

win multiplication in coin vs. credit mode is completely different, tho both need the odds disc to step up correctly.  If your odds lights aren't changing when you insert multiple coins, then the odds unit isn't stepping up or the wipers have an issue.

there are small wires attached to odds unit wipers.  Grab each and tug.  If it pulls off, it needed to be resoldered anyway.

[DavidLee]

Took a closer look at the payout step unit.
Made notes on the photo concerning the yellow/red wire.
Maybe this matter has been dealt with.