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Author Topic: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)  (Read 1557 times)

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Offline DavidBelg

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Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« on: December 07, 2021, 02:14:55 PM »
Hello guys, here's is my next question.    This time for a superline.

On payout I sometimes have a stuck coin under the roller pawl ath the hopper exit.  Machine has paid the good amount of coins but this situation prevents a good reset for the next cycle/spin.
It even tries to spit out that coin too.

The 'knife' that is attached to the solenoid is released and is pushing against the coin, just not strong enough so the coin sits there instead of being kicked out back in the hopper.

Any tips on this?  I already adjustet the height of the assy to which  the roller is attached to, to max height but still performing a step up on the hopper board.
Or something with the motor brake?   (I have no experiene in this)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 08:21:34 PM by wolftalk »

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2021, 08:00:39 PM »
R
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 05:18:55 AM by slcjeeper »
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Offline wolftalk

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2021, 11:43:57 PM »
that's an old style hopper so no brake on it.

the override solenoid needs to kick/deflect the coin off the pinwheel before it gets to the roller arm. 

is the coin denomination correct for the machine and are the coins heavy?

Offline DavidBelg

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2021, 02:06:49 AM »
Hello guys and thank you for your help.  Looking at my hopper assy I do not seem to have a brake.

Looking at the denomination, they seem to small?  We switched 'coins' here in Europe so trying to run them on euro's but maybe this will not work as it seems the coin just passes under the deflector knife?

I assume the machine is dutch from origin

Old Dutch coin: 1 gulden: 25 mm
Current 0.50 euro coin I'm trying: 24,25 mm

Any tricks on this or do I just have to accept it will not work?

I tried with the 24.6 coins and with 25,6 coins but it still happens so a bit stumped..
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 05:08:59 AM by DavidBelg »

Offline wolftalk

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2021, 06:26:05 AM »
bally made pinwheels and coin knifes for different coin diameters.   You changed them to match the coin.

you already know the problem, but you can see how the coin should interact with the kicker with a crude video at https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Hopper_Diverter.mp4

in the video I just attached a cordless drill chuck directly to the end of the hopper motor rotor/armature.  Use the drill to spin the rotor and turn the pinwheel.

you may be able to bend the entire mounting plate the override solenoid is attached to and tilt the kicker edge down enough.  Use something like an adjustable wrench to bend part 9 in the below diagram.

you need to bend the entire plate a little above the bottom screws (#8), not just the tab with the pin that the kicker (5) pivots on.  The pin/kicker need to stay at right angles to the solenoid (2) to prevent binding the plunger.

if that's no good, you'll need to hunt down a better pinwheel or new style hopper.  The new hoppers at least have the disc the coin rides (coin shelf) on as a separate piece, so you could change that to match coin diameter.

if really desperate, you'd need to get inventive fabricating a ring to increase the diameter of the shelf the coin rides on ... but it's probably easier to find a different pinwheel. 

Offline DavidBelg

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2021, 06:50:16 AM »
But does it sound strange then I still have the problem with bigger coins too?

Maybe the knife is kicking in too late or not strong enough?

Offline wolftalk

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2021, 07:48:52 AM »
if the edge of the kicker hits the top of the coins, you're good.

#1 in the diagram in post 4 is the spring.

your game have that?

is the plunger sticking in the override solenoid?

the override solenoid loses power at the same time as the payout relay opens and unpowers the hopper.  Unless the solenoid plunger is sticking, the kicker should immediately snap out and knock the coin off the shelf.

 

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2021, 08:43:35 AM »
I think I will video to see what is happening :).   Yes it has the spring and it seems it's not binding, but sometimes strange things occur... I will clean the plunger in the solenoid.. sometimes dirt or deforming/mushrooming slows things down just a tid for this kind of stuff to occur.

Thank you for your help.

Offline DavidBelg

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2021, 02:02:36 PM »
5 video's.... better documentation is better help I guess...

This is a 5 coin payout.

VIdeo 1 en 2 is with the bigger coins
Video 3, 4 and 5 are with the smaller coins.  In the last video, if I press the roller arm a little bit on the stuck coin, pressure is released from the roller and the coins is kicked by the knife.  Spring to pull in the knife seems as strong as my other machines.  The roller seems a bit harder to move up on this hopper compared to my other but could this be the cause?

Ps: I have moved my roller assy up and down by adjusting it on the 3 screws but the problem remains no matter the position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMtLAOljcq0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_BKEnWYhfc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjIEYDqn-lw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBD1-BWHpM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N--JkXi_meg

Offline crayw

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2021, 09:20:32 PM »
I had the same problem with a bally 957 quarter machine. I tried a lot of adjustments and even added a spring to help with additional tension.

I finally solved the issue by making an adjustment to the payout counter. Look at where your payout counter breaks contact while turning the pinwheel. Adjust it to the edge of the final coin pay. Hope this helps.

Offline crayw

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2021, 10:42:22 PM »
One more issue came to mind. Remove hopper and manually pay 10 coins. Manually reset the payout counter and confirm if it sits on zero. You may find the counter is a half step behind zero. If it is lube your levers and hub and keep working it until you have the counter reset to zero. Being one half step off zero could cause your problem. Again.....Good luck!

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2021, 06:26:15 PM »
if the next coin makes it under the roller, it'll jam.

I had the same problem with a bally 957 quarter machine. I tried a lot of adjustments and even added a spring to help with additional tension.

I finally solved the issue by making an adjustment to the payout counter. Look at where your payout counter breaks contact while turning the pinwheel. Adjust it to the edge of the final coin pay. Hope this helps.

the theory sounds good.

how big of a gap between coins do you have on your 957?

in case it's not clear, the goal is to get the override solenoid to lose power before a coin reaches the roller.   There's a couple things you can fiddle with:

1] adjust the height of the roller so the payout counter steps reliably, but try and minimize the amount the pawl moves to grab the next ratchet tooth.    The ratchet and wipers move when the roller is coming back down from the top of the coin, and you want the pawl to push the ratchet so the wipers move as fast as possible on the payout counter.

this will also let the next coin get closer to the roller and still be able to clear it.

2] per what crayw said, you want the wiper to move off the end of the active pay trace as soon as possible.  I think the only way to adjust that is loosen the trace plate and twist it a little.   Adjusting the zero stop position will only affect the first step of the unit, and you care about the last step.

to get at the screws holding on the trace plate, you probably need to remove the wipers and spiral cam, so there's some trial and error involved.

the problem with [2] is if the adjust is so finicky that you can't make it reliable, then that can't be the solution in your case.

anyone have a hopper for the coin size(s) you are using and can measure the distance between pegs on the pinwheel ... or take a picture so can see how spaced apart the coins are?

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2021, 01:27:14 AM »
I will try the suggested solutions, I understand the logic and that I need to stop motor power as soon as possible.
I already changed the spring on the knife solenoid but no change.

Thinking outside the box, isn't there a kind of resistor on the payout relay that draws the power to the motor when it's de-energized??    Or is there a possibility that I have a switch there that I can adjust for the knife solenoid to be deactivated a bit sooner?

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2021, 09:19:18 AM »
on the old style hopper, the pinwheel coasts to a stop - quickly, but it doesn't stop instantly when the payout relay loses power.

the entire design relies on the override solenoid losing power when the payout relay unpowers and kicking the coin off the rim before it gets to the roller.

the only switch adjust you can check is the payout relay switch(es) that power the override solenoid coil.  Sometimes it's the same two switches that power the hopper motor, sometimes it's a separate switch. 

on an 892-4, it's the two switches and you'd want to adjust them so they open as fast as possible while still having good switch blade overtravel after the contact touch when closing.

one issue you do have is the coins seem to be rolling counter-clockwise on the rim so they bunch up at the roller.  I looked at my 929 and the coins are always touching the peg to the right of them, creating the maximum gap between coins.

it looks like the stainless plate attached to your kicker isn't really doing anything.  You can try bending it so it touches a coin enough that the coin needs to be pushed by the peg to get to the roller. 

make sense?


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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2021, 07:43:41 AM »
I have done so far.

Cleaned the mech for the knife asys with coil so it's snappier.
Bend the knife for the coin to touch it so the pegs need to push it (no more cc wise motion).
Used bigger coins.

This improved the operation a lot but it still happens (one out of 10 maybe)

Now to adjust the switch contacts, adjust the payout board, adjust the knife...
Maybe I will add a little spring to the knife for it to kick a tiny bit faster and will this be sufficient.

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2021, 09:12:01 PM »
Just tuned into this topic, so not up to speed on the situation.
Surely you have cleaned the coin roller bearing that rides on top of the coin.

Possibly there is some residue in the bearing. Try cleaning again with some penetrating cleaning oil.
Then re-lube with light weight oil.
Coat the general area where the coins ride with a dry lube product.
Re-lube all associated moving parts within the assembly.

Check the spring on the step up assembly, as to be in the correct position.
Not hung up or binding.

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2022, 07:02:06 AM »
Just tuned into this topic, so not up to speed on the situation.
Surely you have cleaned the coin roller bearing that rides on top of the coin.

Possibly there is some residue in the bearing. Try cleaning again with some penetrating cleaning oil.
Then re-lube with light weight oil.
Coat the general area where the coins ride with a dry lube product.
Re-lube all associated moving parts within the assembly.

Check the spring on the step up assembly, as to be in the correct position.
Not hung up or binding.

Worked further on this.
Adjusting the payout relay (wider gap on motor contacts) does not solve the issue.
Adjusting the payout board (step sooner off the trace) does not solve this issue
Roller bearing on top of coin has been cleaned/lubed before (was indeed stuck before) but problem remains

I don't have experiece with dry lube.   Would it let the coins fly off easier? 

I do notice that when I press the actuater arm (connected to the roller bearing on top of coin) just slightly the coins jump out (being pushed by the knife).     I might thing that a less strong spring on that assy would solve the issue.   If I move the bearing roller a bit higher which would have the same effect, coins are not counted for.     Maybe if I lower it?   That more pressure is needed to go under the roller?

I understand why they changed design on the hopper afterwards with the brake ;)

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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2022, 10:30:38 AM »
if the coin gets far enough under the roller, it will jam.

do you have other machines that take the same coin?  If yes, compare the parts.  The spacing of the pegs on the pinwheel, the diameter of the plate the coins ride on, the coin knife (piece the coins roll on when going under the roller), etc.  The pinwheel and knife are different for different coins.

typically there's around a 1/3 coin width gap between coins when the right edge of the coins are against the pegs on the pinwheel.  Your coins look like they are almost touching each other, which implies the pin wheel is wrong for the coin diameter and it may not be possible to make it work right.

tmi
----

since the unit is mechanically stepped, the roller needs to move the arm enough to reliably grab the next ratchet tooth on the payout counter and allow the ratchet to turn enough when the roller is going back down.   If you raise the roller too high, the payout counter won't step.  Roller too low and the linkage will bottom out before the coin has passed all the way under the roller.

the roller should be low enough that it pushes the coin to the right until the coin hits a peg in the pinwheel.  Until the coin is being shoved under the roller by the peg, the kicker should be able to knock the coin off the rim.

the goal is to have the override solenoid lose power and kick the coin off the rim before it can get too far under the roller.

1] if you hold the override solenoid plunger in all the way, you want the kicker plate edge to be as close as possible to the coin without touching it.  You can loosen the solenoid and reposition it to adjust where the kicker edge is.  You can try adjusting so the coin is hitting it a little, but not enough to tilt the coin top out past where the roller can hold it.

2] the kicker edge should be as low as possible without touching the pinwheel.  You can slightly bend the entire metal plate the override solenoid is mounted to using an adjustable wrench.  The goal is to have the kicker hit as far left on the coin edge as possible when the solenoid loses power.

3] the coin fence (arched piece above the kicker) should not touch the kicker.  Any binding will slow down the kicker and let a coin get closer to the roller after the payout is done.

4] the kicker and stainless steel plate attached to it should not hit the roller


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Re: Superline: Coin stuck at hopper exit (under roller pawl)
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2022, 03:44:36 PM »
Succes!!!

I've managed to have it working like it should.

What I did extra:
- lifted the height of the roller bearing a tiny bit heigher
- replaced the coil knife spring with a little stronger one

Now I haven't had the issue one single time.

Thank you all for thinking along with me.   But I do believe that the biggest problem is indeed the hopper disc, knife, etc.... those parts really need to be correct to the coin size for them to work properly.

 

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