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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Peter321 on April 21, 2022, 04:19:52 AM
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hello, this is Peter,
After finalising a bally e model 2407 I have now bought a model 929-1, a continental bingo. Greatful using the doc's on bingo.cdyn.com/slots; in checking the reel wipers I found next to a defect diode on wiper reel 3 a strange issue. On reel 1 it looks like the wipers of reel 4 are placed and on reel 4 the wipers of reel 1 are placed, this according written notes on wipers; also the 5th contact of second wiper running on reel 1 , which runs on 6th row of rivets, has been bent away.
I am busy cleaning and checking and do not know how machine runs, but all your thoughts are very welcome
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assuming the index arm is all the way down in the slot on the index disc, then to center the wiper contacts on rivets you loosen the two screws and move the arm as needed.
the trick is making sure the contacts are on the rivets that correspond to the slot depth. The w-1041-2085-2089.png diagram is the reel wiper blueprint and shows what reel symbol goes with the wiper positions.
the 929 was an unsuccessful game in the usa and most were converted to single coin play or hacked up to make 5 reel free spin "win a car" promo machines. The non-obvious "did I win" after the reels stopped on a bunch of numbers confused people.
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Thanks Wolftalk,
This is a machine from Belgium, so should be used as original bally bingo and not a modification.
The metal index reels are the p484 set for 89.24%
Will try to get machine working and maybe then can understand what and why wiperswitch was done
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Will try to get machine working and maybe then can understand what and why wiperswitch was done
I completely misread your first post .. sorry.
the wiper arm with the rivetted board with 4 diodes on reel 1 is correct.
the secondary wiper set (that isn't attached in your pic) would actually work because the wiper finger wiring is the same on the secondary wiper boards for reel 1 and 4, so they are interchangeable.
reels 2, 3, 5 have unique secondary wiper wiring (2 is almost the same, but there's a diode in there).
I'd just swap the boards to the marked wiper arms.
the bent up wiper I'd put back on the rivets. Is it the wiper that will hit the 18-4 rivet on the secondary board?
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Don’t be sorry, I am glad you reacted and maybe I was not very clear.
So the wiper arm running on reel1 board has 2 parts, part with 4 diodes is correct, the other part marked on foto with 929-1. 4 is same as equivalent part on reel board 4 and functions the same.
The bent contact is on wiper arm board with the diodes running on reelboard 1 and is the 5th contact and running on 6th row and if I understand the schematic correctly only 85-6 is not working
In meantime mechanism put back in machine and no spinning, reels are blocked directly again after pull, so for today trying to understand the problem
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the reels spin when the "kick" happens.
pulling the handle rotates the main shaft at the back of the reel mech. It needs to rotate far enough for the latch pawls under the reels hold the index arms away from the spinning reel index discs.
after the kick, the clock is slowing the rotation of the front timing shaft and it's that shaft shifting the link levers that releases the index arms in sequence to stop the reel spin.
if when pulling the handle the reels immediately all latch when the kick happens (no spin), look at the L-shaped stop bracket on the right side of the reel mech at the bottom/back edge. If that bracket is too far back, the kick happens before the latch pawls grab the arms so the reels get immediately indexed. You'll still see the clock fan spinning and the links shifting.
generally the right edge of the stop bracket is flush with the reel mech frame or slighly to the left of the frame edge.
could also be the pawls, link arms, etc. are gunked up and not working right.
lotsa buzzwords in the above that probably make no sense. On https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ there's windup_and_kick/ and videos/ folders that may help. Conveniently, the machine in that stuff is a 929.
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I thought I had cleaned all moving parts so they move freely now; the stop bracket is not loose and fixed with end levelled with frame as in schematic.
The arm wich is connected to the clock, timing shaft?, also shoots back directly. I think I need to look better at the main shaft and will follow your lead on bingo.cdyn
Thanks
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if you hold the clock fan while pulling down the handle, the reels should kick and eventually coast to a stop.
if the reels index immediately after the kick, then:
- the latch pawls aren't working. Could be the kick happening too early or the latch pawls/timer links/link levers gunked up.
- the timing shaft in the front is turning when the clock isn't. Possible causes are worn clock parts, a bad roll pin connecting the clock to the reel mech.
if you can take a video or the left and right sides of the reel mech ... and ideally the bottom ... during a windup/kick and stick it on a file sharing/cloud site, that'd help if you don't find anything.
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On your advice I have checked the time arm.
On video you see inside of the clockside. When turning triparm, the time arm on the other side directly springs back. Only few times when moving triparm very slowly, the time arm is a also going back slowly like it should
do. So will start checking clock
https://www.dropbox.com/s/br0u1m8819gyr90/Reelmech%20time%20arm.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/br0u1m8819gyr90/Reelmech%20time%20arm.MOV?dl=0)
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Checked in meantime the clock and the “paddles” clicking on the gear when time arm is moving back, were totally blocked.
Removed old fat and cleaned and now running smoothly as it should. Next step will be testing with reels attached.
Looks like reel 1and 2 are stopping almost at same time but we will see
Keep you posted
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Reels working except at first pull reel 2 is not spinning, next pulls are ok, so must be some lubrication.
Machine is running, function in top seems all working, lights of numbers not working all, so checking wipers and light sockets.
Question: On the payout counter is a switch left under which is closed in start position, but when frame is moving to the left the switch becomes free, but still stays closed, is this correct? Wires are 31 and 2x 93
I cannot find switch in the schematic
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Question: On the payout counter is a switch left under which is closed in start position, but when frame is moving to the left the switch becomes free, but still stays closed, is this correct? Wires are 31 and 2x 93
I cannot find switch in the schematic
that's the "open after 20 carriage switch" at schem A38.
I guess the name answers the question :-)
it's not essential that the switch opens on step 21 of the payout counter, but it must stay closed for the first 20 steps. If it opens a few steps after 20, that should be ok.
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I missed the switch because I was concentrating on the “a” part of the scheme; I have also found it now and as contact stays always closed, will try to modify so it works as it should,
Thanks for help
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I have set switch correct and cleaned contacts of all function in upper cabinet; without hopper installed all light seems to work when using coinswitch to coin uo and pull handle; I noticed 2 clean cut wires , a blue one near plug 2 (from left) and orange near plug 4. on plugs no traces of missing wires. blue one has continuity with wires connected to lampsockets and orange one has continuity with orange wires on relays
are there any ideas why this could have been done?
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just saw another blue wire on doorcables, blue marked cable is one piece and other part is going towards door; after door plug direction into the cabinet it looks lik ethis blue wire has been added afterwards.
this blue wire has been connected with each other passing the door plug
what could be the fiction of such a wire?
I am very curious to find out
thanks for reading and helping
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Solid blue wire is use for the 6 volt circuits, lights.
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Ok, thanks
I saw that also on the cut blue wire near male plug topcabinet, which had continuity with 6volt wiring of sockets.
I have the feeling that it has something to do with jackpot and/bell, as it looks like wiring towards bell has been modified
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Neverthelees my search for “loose” ends, I made no progrees on this one and for the time leave it as it looks like it was done on purpose, so machine should be working one way or another
Checked al wiring on cabinet plugs, all seems to be there with correct codes and the plugged males have aal continuity with the females
Coin up is working correctly, and reelnumbers correctly light up on scoreboard; checked al contacts on relays, payout counter and reelmechanism, the all look ok according schematics.
Problem: winning combination mostly does not pay out and sometimes pay out occurs just like that, with amount not predictable
In credit mode register is working and counting, when counting goes higher than 50, machine is shut down completely
In pay mode hopper is rotating and coin get out but also here after few seconds machine is completely out.
In both cases pushing reset bar helps an somtimes hopper or register starts up again
For sure I need to check safey relay
Question: where to look if scorelights on scoreboard give a winner, but payout is not correlated to scoreboard at all
( replaced already 1 defect diode on wiperboard)
Sorry for long story, but I hoping for advice to go forward
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the game shuts down when the safety motor runs long enough to open the safety timer switch feeding main power wire 50.
what's supposed to happen is the microswitch that is riding on the payout counter plastic cam (on the ratchet/gear side) opens periodically and removes power from the safety motor, which resets it.
if the cap/diode on the delay relay aren't working tho, when the microswitch opens the delay relay loses power and the safety doesn't reset ... at least not all the way.
the usual problem is the capacitor is bad, but occasionally it's the diode.
if you want to work around the problem, stick paper between the contacts on the delay relay so the safety motor never runs.
incorrect payout amounts - assuming no shutdown during pay - is typically poor wiper->trace contact on the payout counter.
no payout could be the payout counter again or reel wiper board issues. Easiest thing is get the game working in one coin mode before trying multiple coins. Since the game has a lot of diodes, you can't pull the reel mech and verify continuity thru the reel wipers out to the correct payout counter wire unless you put the meter in diode mode and measure the diode voltage drop. You can look at the schem to see which way you need to put on the probes, or just try both ways.
e.g. your goal thru the reels is connect wire 90 to the appropriate payout trace wire ... e.g. a 2 pay is wire 13. You'd set up a cherry win that wasn't paying and put a probe on wire 13 and other probe on 90. If you get nothing, swap the probes. If you still get nothing, the circuit path is broken in the reels or there's a bad diode in the path.
alternatively, set the meter to measure DC voltage and clip one probe on wire 31-10 and the other probe on the payout counter wire you expect to be powered. With the hopper and reels in the game, see what voltage you get when you set up a win that should power the trace you put the probe on. If you don't see around 50VDC, the problem is in the reels or plugs. If you do see the 50VDC, the problem is almost certainly the payout counter wiper->trace contact if some pays work.
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Hi Wolftalk,
Thanks for helping me back on track, will keep you posted
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I have been testing and thaught I measured 58 volt on connecting 31-10 (16 male plug cabinet nr 5 left row) and 2 payout strip , so started cleaning payout counter unit; all seems to be clean, but cleaned anyway wiper and disc; after putting everything together I noticed that when resetting the small "white wheel"on counting brackets came back totally, when first this part moved totally back only after first move step up plunger. but checked first voltage again and now only 5-8 volt, so first measurement maybe not ok.
Start working on reel mechanism andall diodes seems to be ok; testing now the combinations as mentioned in explenation disc wiring; found few problems, but then realised I need to follow strictly the scheme with reels and numbers and not only the payline :banghead:
let you know results later after getting courage again
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didn't really understand everything in your last post:
when resetting the small "white wheel" on counting brackets came back totally, when first this part moved totally back only after first move step up plunger
you mean the disc connected to the reset pawl (red arrow in pic below)? If yes, when the reset coil powers, the pawls lift off the ratchet/gear teeth and lock in that position until the first step-up coil activation.
if the pawls don't lock but fall down onto the ratchet AFTER the wipers are fully reset, then switches will be in the wrong state:
1] the winner light will be on when it should be off - "payout counter reset pawl" switch on schem
2] win multiplying will have issues - "payout reset arm switch" on schem
... different names for the same switch stack. The people drawing the schematic would start with other schematics and make changes, so they weren't always consistent.
if the pawls fall onto the ratchet teeth while the wipers are resetting, they will stop the wipers and the game won't pay correctly. Usually the pawls not locking when reset is caused by dried lubrication on the pivot points on the step-up/reset arms.
I have been testing and thaught I measured 58 volt on connecting 31-10 (16 male plug cabinet nr 5 left row) and 2 payout strip
that's what you should measure when the reels have a 2-pay winner on the payline and it doesn't matter where the wipers on the payout unit are. Payout ends when the wipers step off the end of the 2 trace, but the trace itself is still powered until you play a coin or manually move the reels.
when the game doesn't pay correctly for the symbols on the payline, a good check is measuring the voltage between wire 31-10 and the payout disc trace for the win amount.
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Thanks for extensive reply; I indeed was mentioning the disc on the photo, before cleaning it was acting like you described, now it does not, so was not sure what behaviour must be; it is clear now and I have work to do there.
In process of measuring the payout lines according text explanation disc wiring I found different results with meter in diode position. For three in a row sometimes apprx. 0,6v, which should be ok; sometimes 0,08, which is not ok and sometimes no measurement. Need to check the other combinations and see what it brings
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story continues! I have found with meter on diode setting, measuring the different paylines as mentioned in the text explanation on how the wipers are working, different values from no measurement, 0.06 , 06 , and 1.13 volts and I could not understand it. All diodes seperately measured are ok with 0.6 in one direction and nothing in other direction.
I discussed it with friend and he suggested to take a different way: on wire 90 I have put 15 volt dc neg, connect this to resistor and testing probe, 15 v pos connected to other end resistor with also testing probe.
measuring if there is voltage between wire 90 and, depending on reel combinations, the wire number as mentioned in text, like pay 3 is 90 > 13
In only 3 cases I found votage zero, all other were ok between 11.8 and 14.3. The three zeros could be traced back to wipers on disk 3, which were not in line and to loose, corrected wiper tension and now all seems to be ok.
next step will be checking wire 31-10 with 90 in fully build machine
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what did you use for a power supply?
I'd guess a 9V battery and a lamp would work as well. Connect - terminal of battery to wire 90, + terminal to one side of lamp, other side of lamp to appropriate payout wire.
if circuit is ok the lamp lights.
'course ... I haven't actually tried it :-)
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I was supplied with a 15 volt dc powersupply, which did the job
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I am working now on the reset pawl as seen in picture; when resetten the pawls are not locking; is there a simple way to adjust ?
In manuals it is written to adjust, but not how and there is the warning that bending will break the pawls
Any advice is very welcome
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situation is as follows: reel wipers tested and are ok, reset pawl on payout couter is locking now on reset, all male plugs top cabinet have continuity with female plugs, all lights on paytable are lit according corresponding reel numbers, manually coining up with coinswitch works, handle pull is ok, as far as I can see all switches seems to be ok, reset/jackpot keyswitch counts down register to zero,
credit button is working and when used every time odds motor returns 1 cycle, during counting down register odds motor is cycling.
But:
With any pay combination hoppers starts working and never stops till safety becomes active;
when switch payout/replay is switched to replay any paycombination will activate counting register, but it does not stop counting.
Maybe something simple but I am missing it, any advice would be welcome
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for both coin and credit pay the payout counter needs to step up.
if it's not stepping, the game should eventually shut down - after a few coins in coin play.
one of the less common things about the game is the payout counter is mechanically stepped in coin pay mode and electrically stepped in credit mode.
I guess I'd start with coin mode. Is the payout counter stepping as coins exit the hopper?
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I have taken hopper out and checked coins, I am using 2 eurocent, with diameter 18,75 mm (use the same in E 2407 machine)
The coin fits on hopper ring when I lift the upper” barrier” a little bitt, the step-up arm is moving, but the “wheel” is moving not high enough, so counting only occurs sometimes and not regular.
Tried to put small piece of wood on top of setup arm , just above spring to make plunger already moved in down direction, but than the rachet is not coming free from the plastic wheel.
See pictures
Is there a trick?
Looks like the hopper disc’s for coins are not in line with stepup mechanism as larger coins will not fit disc’s and smaller coins do not push stepup wheel high enough
Stepup arm manually works ok
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hopper runing, due to limitations NLG the quality is poor; setup arm is lifted fraction too low for good moving payout counter
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the arm is adjustable to lower/raise the roller via a couple screws that attach the arm to the hopper.
there are limits tho. If the coin diameter is too small/big, the correct fix was to install the appropriate disc that the coins ride on.
in credit mode, the payout counter is electrically stepped and the roller arm doesn't matter.
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thanks again Wolftalk, great!
I was able to adjust the lower/raise of arm a bit and now it seems to work now on the bench, although at a certain point there are some missteps as rachet passes the pawl at the position which is also the endstop. was not able to test yet in machine with winning payline.
in credit mode the register is not stopping counting; does this mean that still payout counter is not ok or can I check elsewhere?
tried to follow scheme, but got caught with odds motor
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the ratchet teeth are worn? The ratchet has 100 teeth and the unit is capable of reliably stepping 200 times (some games 250). If it missteps, the pays will be wrong.
in credit mode, the step-up arm on the payout counter is moved by the B-26-1100 step-up coil pulling in the plunger instead of the link to the roller arm pushing in the plunger.
check the step-up coil resistance ... should be around 9.5 ohms.
the odds motor is just sending pulses to the replay register and payout counter step-up coils at sometimes different rates.
unless you are playing 5 coins, an odds motor cam 5 switch is sending pulses to the replay register. The odds unit is picking which cam switch is pulsing the payout counter.
for example, when 1 coin is played a different cam 5 switch is pulsing the payout counter, so the register and counter are stepping up at the same time.
when you play two coins, a cam 4 switch is pulsing the payout counter. It's probably no surprise that cam 4 has 1/2 the lobes as cam 5, so the payout counter steps once for every two credits added ... effectively doubling the payout.
if the payout counter step-up coil doesn't fire, try playing a different number of coins so a different odds cam switch is used. If none of them work, the coil is bad, the wiper->rivet connection on the odds disc for wire 25 to the cam switches feeding wire 91 is bad, or there's a plug connection/wire issue.
in coin mode, the 929 uses an odds follower stepper unit. When you play 2+ coins, the machine resets the payout counter when the pay completes and it pays again. It will do the reset-an-pay-again N-1 times, where N is the number of coins played.
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ratchet has slight degradation on one spot, but try to flatten it out with nail file.
although I tested all coils when I got the machine the solderpoint with the 70 wires on the setup coil was weak and broke off just like that and damaging the coil contact; Have ordered new coil.
thanks for explanation on the odds motor, all is slowly becoming more clear ! :applause:
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update: replaced coil b-26-1100 on payout counter; machine works now in replay and payout mode and is counting on register and paying coins, need to check if amount is what it should be.
the mixer relay and override selenoid on hopper are not working, seems no problem.
in credit mode every push of credit button ups coin from 1 to 6, bit every time odds motor is rotating and needs to wait before other credit can be used.
in payout mode sometimes adding coins goes ok from 1 to 6 and lights inserted coin and insert coin keeps on till 6th coin; sometimes odds motor is rotating after each coin and during running coins light are off.
also payout is done in "groups", like 4 coins is 2 times 2 with small time in between.
odds motor sometimes rotating and sometimes not on adding coins from 1 to 6 looks like bad switch somewhere
could that have to do with override selenoid/mixer relay?
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the mixer relay and override selenoid on hopper are not working, seems no problem.
the hopper mixer relay is not a big problem. It's just running the hopper motor to level the coins. The game pays frequently enough that it shouldn't be an issue.
the override solenoid not working in payout (coin pay) mode is a problem. You will get overpays because the hopper doesn't stop instantly when the power is turned off if you have the old style hopper with the plastic ball float. A coin or two will be ejected as the hopper coasts to a stop, when ordinarily the override solenoid deflects those extra coins back into the hopper bowl.
the mixer relay and override selenoid on hopper are not working, seems no problem.
in credit mode every push of credit button ups coin from 1 to 6, bit every time odds motor is rotating and needs to wait before other credit can be used.
odds motor sometimes rotating and sometimes not on adding coins from 1 to 6 looks like bad switch somewhere
could that have to do with override selenoid/mixer relay?
the odds motor cams always turn 360 degrees (I think .. keep forgetting to look. If there's two notches on cam 1, then it's 180 degrees). A cam 1 switch is a "carry-over" switch ...it keeps the motor powered after something else started it until the cam 1 switch stack falls back into the cam notch.
if a replay button push/release ... or worse, playing a coin ... causes the odds unit to step multiple times, then possible causes are:
- the replay relay is powering when it shouldn't ... e.g. replay relay switch with 30 and 83-1 is stuck closed
- replay relay switch with wires 30 and 80-2 is stuck closed
- relay button switch stuck closed and there are credits on the replay register (or replay register zero switch misadjusted).
- short circuit someplace
tmi
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- the odds unit steps up when the odds relay powers and unpowers.
- in replay mode, pushing and releasing the replay button will power the replay relay ... which keeps itself powered until an odds motor cam 4 switch opens.
- when the replay relay is powered, an odds motor cam 3 switch will power/unpower the odds relay to step up the odds unit
- if you hold in the replay button, the offset lobes on cam 3 and cam 4 will step up the odds unit rapidly.
in coin payout mode, the replay relay should never power if the replay register is 0000. If there are credits, the replay relay will work even in coin mode.
in payout mode sometimes adding coins goes ok from 1 to 6 and lights inserted coin and insert coin keeps on till 6th coin; sometimes odds motor is rotating after each coin and during running coins light are off.
the lights should be off when odds motor is running. Check odds motor cam 1 switch with wires 91-2 and 38 and make sure replay mode switch with those wires is open in coin payout mode.
also payout is done in "groups", like 4 coins is 2 times 2 with small time in between.
that's correct in coin payout mode. If you play multiple coins, the game pays the single coin amount, resets the payout counter and pays the single coin amount again. The reset and pay again happens N-1 times, where N is the number of coins played. The resetting of the payout counter causes a small delay ... so as you said, payout is done in "groups".
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Thanks Wolftalk
As usually very helpfull.
The hopper mixing relay and override relay seems to be out of order on purpose, so I will first start concentrating on odds motor problem.
Will keep you posted
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Small update: in replay mode all seems ok, except winner paid light is mostly on.
In payout mode paying is done not constant according wintable and winner paid light keeps burning.
When resetting payout unit by hand through reset coil, the reset pawl is locking correctly, so ratchet is “ loose” and can rotate free, when using set up arm the pawls make contact with ratchet as is should be. Problem is that in game the reset plunger is moving with much more force, so pawls are not able to interlock and winner paid light stays on;
So need to find solution for that
Override coil is working, but coins are maybe too small and not all are kicked back by override arm and sometimes stuck under roller, which causes counting problems. Hopper disc is marked A 0 , but I do not have other disc, so have to work around it.
Next is to make sure all lampsockets are working well, so bulbs stay on when running machine
Thanks again for all support
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below is the winner paid lamp circuit.
the "payout relay insert" is a payout relay in the top compartment. It is powered when the payout relay on the hopper is powered, and when powered wire 72 connects to 45, so the winner paid, coin accepted and insert coin lamps are all disconnected.
check the switch on the payout relay insert that has wires 72, 91-2 and 45. Make sure the blade with wire 91-2 isn't still connected when the relay is powered. You can also try sticking a piece of paper between the contacts ... if the lamps still turn on, you have a short.
lamps burning up imply a short - but a short in most of the circuit would affect the coin accepted and insert coin lamps also. Fwiw, the only difference between replay mode and payout mode is the replay key switch, so take a look at that for shorts between blades or a solder drip.
wrt the coins and override solenoid, it looks like the diverter plate is too high so coins aren't getting deflected off the pinwheel. Take a look at https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/hopper_diverter/
if that's the problem, to adjust the diverter/kicker so it is lower you bend the entire metal plate the override assembly is mounted on. The curved diverter plate must hit the top of the coin. See second pic below - adjustable wrench grabbing the plate. Also note a cordless drill attached to the hopper motor armature - easy way to spin the pinwheel without powering the hopper.
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I have checked insert payout relay with 91-2, 72 and 45
Picture 1 non powered relay, 91-2 and 72 have continuity; pic 2, relay powered and switch 91-2 and 72 not having contact, but still continuity between the 2 blades!
Pic 3 shows that wires soldered on blades are insulated with tube.
Also checked on male plugs back of cabinet, also there 91-2 and 72 have continuity when blades are not contacting.
Hopper was not in machine during testing.
Was not able yet to see what winner paid light is doing when contacts are blocked
I have checked diverter plate and that’s almost touching the hopperdisc, so would bending the metal plate help in that case? Maybe better to just bend the diverter?( I am carefull because once bended it will be very difficult to go back to old situation)
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What seems to be the basic problem with the machine?
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Winner paid light stays on after new pull, payout unit is resetting, but winner paid keeps burning; I thought is was because reset pawl on payout unit is not interlocking when reset. On advice Wolftalk I tested replay insert relay and 91–2 and 72 kept continuity even when contact blades are not making contact.
Inser coin and coin accepted light work as they should
Other problem is adapt hopper to 2 eurocent coins with diameter of 18,75 mm
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Winner paid light stays on after new pull, payout unit is resetting, but winner paid keeps burning; I thought is was because reset pawl on payout unit is not interlocking when reset. On advice Wolftalk I tested replay insert relay and 91–2 and 72 kept continuity even when contact blades are not making contact.
Inser coin and coin accepted light work as they should
Other problem is adapt hopper to 2 eurocent coins with diameter of 18,75 mm
"keeps burning" = burning out or staying on? I thought you meant blowing up, but in any case, the winner paid light should not be on during payout.
continuity or almost zero ohms? Wire 81-2 and 72 will show continuity unless you ensure there's no path thru the lamps, coils and transformer between those two wires.
in general, continuity/buzzer testing requires care to ensure the circuit is isolated. It's easier to measure ohms. Almost zero ohms means a closed path, anything more than a couple ohms means you are measuring thru a some other devices and should be treated as an open path ... assuming your probes are making good contact.
at game over when the winner paid lamp is on but the game didn't pay:
1] pull the hopper and verify the reset pawl switch is open. Stick paper between the contacts on the switch with green/black wire 48-1 and yellow/brown 36-1 if ya want and shove the hopper back in. If the coin accepted lamp is off, then the pawl switch is almost certainly open.
2] if the winner paid lamp is still on, you have a short on wire 48-1. In that case, after a winner the winner paid and coin accepted lamp would be on, and if you played less than max coins on the previous game the insert coin lamp should be on. If that's happening, check for shorts to the door frame on the lamp socket.
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Typical wiring for winner paid light.
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I am sorry for the confusion due to my poor English; burning means the light is on.
I was referring to answer of Wolftalk earlier
“””””””””””””””
you mean the disc connected to the reset pawl (red arrow in pic below)? If yes, when the reset coil powers, the pawls lift off the ratchet/gear teeth and lock in that position until the first step-up coil activation.
if the pawls don't lock but fall down onto the ratchet AFTER the wipers are fully reset, then switches will be in the wrong state:
1] the winner light will be on when it should be off - "payout counter reset pawl" switch on schem
2] win multiplying will have issues - "payout reset arm switch" on schem
... different names for the same switch stack. The people drawing the schematic would start with other schematics and make changes, so they weren't always consistent.
if the pawls fall onto the ratchet teeth while the wipers are resetting, they will stop the wipers and the game won't pay correctly. Usually the pawls not locking when reset is caused by dried lubrication on the pivot points on the step-up/reset arms.
“””””””””””””””””
So I thought it is a mechanical problem that the pawls are locking not tight enough; moving the reset plunger by hand makes the pawls interlock, but in the actual game the plunger is moved with more force and pawls not interlock and winnerpaid light stays on
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if the winner light is on when there wasn't a winner and you look and see that the pawls are not lifted off ratchet any more, then yes .. the problem is mechanical. I read what you said before as the winner light was on when the pawls were lifted (the reset pawl switch was open).
the machine yanking in the reset solenoid plunger should make it easier for the pawls to lock above the ratchet.
the problem could be the pivot points on the pawl arms are sticky. I usually remove the arms and clean them in a tub of isopropyl alcohol, then apply a drop of lubricant. The pawls should pivot very easily on the arms.
another possibility is the pivot point holes are worn. If that's the case, you need to replace the arms. Fortunately, they are commonly used on all bally slots and pinball machines, so finding a spare stepper unit to take the parts from is easy.
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In this youtube video it is clear how the pawls work; in my case the arm connected to the reset plunger looks to be worn out, so manually resetting the pawls lock and stay locked, but when operated electrically locking is too weak and they unlock.
I will chase new reset arm
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Youtube: titel. Bally 809 upper unit - 2nd coin problems (inside)
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it would be unusual for wear to allow the unit work when operated manually but not when operated electrically. If the pawl has worn/rounded, you can try filing it so the step-up arm pawl latches more reliably.
when testing the operation manually, push the plunger into the coil without touching the pawl. If the pawls latch up, then they should work the same when the coil does it if the coil is powered long enough and the coil stop is not broken.
when the unit is not resetting correctly electrically, the typical symptom is the plunger didn't pull all the way into the coil and the wiper reset aborted (the wipers didn't reset all the way on larger payouts). A poor plug connection, reel mech B-1 switch or payout counter 0 switch can create the issue.
a quick test is jumper the zero switch closed to eliminate that switch as the problem.
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https://youtu.be/rmDodnSJbaA
https://youtu.be/XegM_bpqKig
Locking is not working when coil is operated normally, manually locking works.
Will need to bend or file something
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once the reset pawl starts lifting the step-up pawl, the two pawls should stay in contact the whole time.
is the step-up arm pawl scraping on the unit frame? If it is, bend it up a little.
the step-up pawl should pivot freely ... see https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Payout_Counter_Pawls.m4v
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Thanks Wolftalk,
Due to video’s I saw where to bend the setup arm; after some trial and error I managed to get it right
Works now as it should be.
Next is to adjust hopper overdrive so all coins are falling back and finding some new profiles for the corroded ones on the glasses
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small update: hopper paying out is going reasonable, sometimes coin stuck under arm, but is ok for now. behaviour is same when in payout or credit mode. Testing in credit mode I noticed that win of 100 is ok regarding bell and counting register, but 200 and 250 wins, with single coin, are not working properly. Bell rings till 100 counts and then stops, counting is not stopping, but keeps running. win of 160 is ok, but at higher wins counting keeps running untill I manually add coin ; bell stops mostly after counts of 80-100. Same when using more coins, so it looks like high paying outs are problem, not amount of playing coins.
I also noticed that the count unit in the upper cabinet is not moving at all whatever the win is.
apparently bell is not going synchroon with counting.
I am lost here because what I can see on the pay out counter on hopper it seems to work ok.
Wolftalk, maybe you can help me out on this one, as you own also this 929 model.
thanks in advance
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in checking the wipers on the 200 and 250 trail again on the p o unit I saw that sometimes the went to the end, but sometimes they stuck. I noticed that the spring on the ratchet was loose and by taken it apart spring "jumped" away.
So now trying to get that fixed, but the washer and the black "fixing ring" to keep spring under control seems to be rather small and difficult to apply. There will be trick to do that, but for now I will be busy for a while to get that fixed
keep you posted
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in coin or credit mode, payout ends when the replay counter wipers "step off" the active payout trace on the disc.
the difference between coin pay and credit pay on some games like the 929 is coin pay mechanically steps the payout counter, but in credit pay the payout counter is electrically stepped. Kinda odd. It was probably a decision to keep customers that were "concerned" about electrically-stepped payout counters happy - they wouldn't run the game in credit mode.
high pays use the outboard carriage wipers and the C.O. (carry-over) trace on the payout disc. The outboard wiper movement is small and not accurate enough to pay exactly, so their job is to get the main wipers on to the C.O. trace and payout ends when the main wipers step off C.O.
the count unit is only used to control incrementing the jackpot meter and was rarely used by anyone. It was just an accounting thing to help track how much the game paid out when a game had hand-pays due to being over a coin payout limit. Most casinos had procedures for accounting for hand-pays and tracking them to machines, so they didn't use the count unit / jackpot meter.
the bell on the 929-1 turns on for two reasons:
1] when the game goes into jackpot lockup mode and rings while the payout relay (insert) is powered. Dropping a coin will trip the handle release relay and coin relay, either of which disconnects the payout circuit and the bell should go off. The person doing the hand-pay typically dropped a coin to shut up the bell.
2] the bell rings when the jackpot relay is powered. Jackpot relay is powered when wins happen ... looks like wins under 100 will power the jackpot relay for the duration of the payout and the bell turns off when the payout counter wipers step off the winning trace. Wins 100 and over the bell rings until a coin is deposited.
However, seeing how/when wire 23 on the schematic is connected thru the reels, payout counter and diodes needs more whisky than I can drink at 8am :-) If the bell rings on a 100 pay, but not 200+ WHEN the jackpot lockup relay isn't powered, the problem is likely in the reel wipers.
the bell behavior is sometimes changed - staying ringing if someone walks away could be irritating. It's supposed to stay running when the jackpot lockup relay is powered to attract the attention of the attendants.
the black ring on the ratchet isn't meant to come off. The torsion spring fits over it when the spring is loose. Typical torsion spring tension is 2-1/4 turns +/- 1/4 turn when the payout counter wipers are reset. i.e. reset wipers or move them to reset, remove spring, hook end in whatever ratchet hole is appropriate so you can 2-1/4 turns when winding the spring an attaching to the post.
if the black ring is off, you may need to flatten it so the barbs dig into the ratchet firmly when the ring is forced back on. If the ratchet plastic is too chewed up to hold on the ring, either replace the ratchet or glue/epoxy the ring on in a way that doesn't affect the spring.
the torsion spring can look a little messy on the ratchet and one side of the spring coils can poke above the black ring. As long as the tail that is attached to the post is under the black ring, the spring will stay on.
test and make sure the payout counter resets from 2 steps and you can step the payout counter up 200 steps. If the torsion spring is installed too tightly, the payout counter will stop stepping up. A safety circuit should activate and shut the game down when the payout counter stops stepping when payout is occurring.
did that help?
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Thanks Wolftalk
It certainly helps and like all I am very gratefull that you are willing to help and share your knowledge
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satus summary payout problem: first all went well in coin and credit mode except for 200 and 200+ wins, register kept counting but no movement on payout unit; bell ringing irregular.
then: torsion spring payout unit got loose and retaing ring and washer found somewhere in hopper; restored washer, ring and spring; with 2 turns on spring manually able with step up arm to fully step up till end and resets works good, also after 2 times with step up arm wipers come back; reset pawls working ok and after restet rachet can move freely; zero switch works ok; basic wipers are following their track
1 coin:
testing in credit mode: win 2 gives 1 up on register,
win 10 gives 5 up plus 2 wen pushing set up arm
win 20 gives 10 up and when manually pushes set up arm gives another 2
win 100 gives 103 up and plus 1 and bell ring when pushing set up arm
win 200 gives 186 up and plus 8 and bell ring when pushing set up arm
odds unit advances when coining up and result is same when using more coins f.e. for a win 20
looks like for lower wins only have amount is counted
set up arm switches seems to work ok, but blades "lowest switch" with wire 98 and 93 show continuity even when switch is in open position, problem?
manually pushing set up arm shows that 100, 200 and 250 wipers are coming off their track, but maybe not soon enough?
As I am thinking in circles now, advice to progress is very welcome
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Win 10 pays 5, win 20 pays 10.
Could indicate the odds unit is one step behind.
Are there any other small payouts besides 10 and 20?
If so, set them up to payout then check the results.
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the outboard carriage wipers on the 100, 200 and 250 traces should step off the end of the trace around 15 steps before the payout amount. It doesn't need to be exact ... the whole purpose of the C.O. trace is to deal with the imprecision of the movement of the outboard wipers. Anything from around 8-20 steps should work fine.
at reset, the C.O. and F trace (wires 98 and 93) may be connected by the wipers ... probably shouldn't be, but not sure it matters. If you step up the payout counter a couple times tho, 98 and 93 shouldn't be connected.
the payout counter disc has 2, 5, 10, 20 traces and the outboard wiper traces. The 5 trace is not used for any payout directly, it's used to get the main wipers onto the F trace with wire 31-5 attached for outboard wiper pays.
for single coin play, the 2, 10 and 20 traces are used for the small pays, and there's no multiplying being done. Different odds motor stack 5 switches is used to power the register and payout counter coils, but they both close/open at more-or-less the same time, so payout counter wipers should step once for every credit added.
are your results consistent and repeatable? I wouldn't worry about what happens if manually operating the step-up arm ... you can't do it as fast as the game and you are racing the odds motor switches doing it manually.
I liked david's suggestion, but if you have the problem with single coin pays, the odds wipers can't be the problem unless they are misaligned and bridging rivets - e.g. the F wiper in the diagram below is connecting rivets 37 and 36 together (connecting wires 21-5 and 14-8, causing multiple odds motor switches to step up the payout counter).
payouts of 1/2 the correct amount for 2, 10 and 20 trace pays but outboard wiper pays being closer is kinda odd. A mechanical issue affecting lower pays should cause higher pays to be too small also ... tho not by 1/2. You have a 100 pay that is over, not under.
first thing to verify is the wipers are stepped off the end of the appropriate trace when pay ended.
second thing is to see if the replay register is stepping at the same rate as the payout counter. A camera on the payout counter and listening to the register - or if you can operate the hopper out of the cabinet with cables, getting both in the same video frame will help so you can watch in slow motion makes life easier.
I woulda guessed the payout counter step-up pawl is grabbing two ratchet teeth when the torsion spring tension is low (try adding a 1/4 turn of tension), but that should affect all payouts.
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small update
I have adjusted the 100, 200 and 250 outer wipers so the are definitely off their track at about 83, 180 and 220 counting.
Due to time constraint I was not able to check the odds wiring, but did some counting:
1 coin: win of 2 gives 1, win of 10 gives 5 and win of 20 gives 10
with nr of coins going from 1-2-3-4-5-6 the register should count for lowest combination ( "BIN" ) 2-4-6-8-10-12 but actually counted only half, so 1-2-3-4-5-6;
for the combination 'BINGO"with 1 coin it should count 100 but did the following (checked it 4 times):first counting 88, then stops, when pushing the step-up arm down manually , the counting starts again till total of 105
so I have still some work to do :Scratch-Head:
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where are the wipers when the small pays end wrt the end of the appropriate trace?
if pay stops but nudging the wipers makes the pay continue - or stepping the unit to make the wipers move - usually the traces need to cleaned. Synthetic steel wool and isopropyl alcohol usually removes the surface oxidation and other crud.
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I decided to take payout unit apart to check board; cleaned board, which was reasonable clean, and checked the 4 diodes on backside board; 3 of them are ok, but fourth one showed 0 volt, would be broken normally; but on front side of board a bridge wire was soldered so I think that accounts for the 0 volt. See red circles picture, right side diode is connected to wire 81.
In checking the switches again I found that the zeroswitch in open position, the reset position, has continuity; so open or closed would make no difference?
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the payout counter zero switch near the stop bumper in front of the spiral cam just disconnects the reset coil when the payout counter is already reset. It reduces wear on the mechanism by not firing the reset coil when it's not needed.
if the zero switch is stuck closed, you wouldn't notice a problem. If the zero switch is stuck open, then the game would not pay any amount <= whatever previous payout occurred, and any higher payout you just get the difference. e.g. if a 2 pay happened, you'd get no more 2 pays. If you them get a 10 pay, you'd get 8 more coins.
the diodes and shorting one may not be noticeable either since a lot of the circuits the diodes interact with are controlling the jackpot meter and jackpot lockup relays.
if a diode fails open it could affect some payouts.
just to make sure, the game pays correctly pays <=20 in single coin play when in coin payout, but pays 1/2 the correct amount on those pays in credit payout?
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Zero switch is stuck closed. In coinplay payout till 20 is ok, tested several times but only 1 coin different sometimes which is due to mechanical action hopper in relation to coinsize. That was why I was testing in credit play. Measuring with ohm meter inner wipers gave correct behaviour in counting 2, 10 and 20; I was puzzled by counting the 100, 200 and 250,did not seem to work, maybe due to bridge 100 contact with last contact ( wire 81 )
On payout relay and delay relay are capacitors, could those be a problem ?
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one difference between coin pay and credit pay on the 929 is coin pay steps the payout counter mechanically via the link going up to the coin out roller mechanism. The payout counter step-up coil is not used.
In credit pay, the payout counter is stepped by the step up coil which yanks the step-up arm harder than you or the roller linkage can. If there's wear on the linkage pivot points or an issue with the coil stop or plunger, the step-up arm may grab two ratchet teeth instead of one ... which would halve your payout.
you really need to verify that the payout counter wipers are in the correct position after a payout ends. You should be able to watch the roller link arm or better - video it so you can count how many times the payout counter coil fired. (the link arm will still move down in credit pay, but the hopper motor won't be running).
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Thanks Wolftalk for being so patient with me :applause:
Preliminary result:
I have disconnected the step-up arm from the roller coin out mechanism so no influence from that part.
So connected win 20 results in 10 and win 100 results now in 75.
Disconnected mechanism results in win 20 gives 25 and win 100 gives 55.
Work in progress
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how many times did the payout counter step?
it may be easier to connect the roller link arm and watch that.
if the payout counter is not stepping the same number of times as the payout amount in single coin play, you need to solve that issue first.
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I have checked again contacts and payout unit but found nothing so made some video’s.
1 coin, 2 coins, 1 credit and 2 credits. In credit mode always half od what it should be.
Looks like in credit mode setup arm is moving slower.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdTA07ryIKIN2LKH9w_hZZAnpew6Dmw-Y
Rachet and pawls looking good and in manual/coin action no double counting can be noticed
(Summary: counting credits and coins went well except for win 200 and 250 which did not counted correctly; torsion spring sprang from rachet and was damaged; replaced by new one; rachet can freely turn till end and resets to zero, also with small rotation. Adapted wipers for 200 and 250 on payout arm, Since then credit counting is half of coin counting and 200 and 250 still not correct.)
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for a 1 credit play and a 20 win, your video shows the link arm moving 10 times and payout stops. That's not correct. In single coin play, the arm should move once for every credit added, so it should move 20 times.
assuming the wipers have actually stepped off the end of the 20 trace when the payout stopped, your problem is the payout counter step-up pawl is grabbing two ratchet teeth instead of one when the payout is electrically stepped.
I'm not sure if bad unedited video or bad text is worse, so let's try video:
https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/videos/Payout_Counter_Stepup.m4v
if your pawl is grabbing two teeth, are the plungers in the wrong coils, the coil stop is broken, the pawl pivot points worn, the posts the pawls pivot on loose, or the pawl bent?
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Thanks Wolftalk for your quick response
Plungers are in the correct coils (which I replaced already earlier as they were broken)
Coilstop is ok; so I need to concentrate on pawls and pivot posts.
Unfortunately I have comparison regarding loose or worn .
Rachet teeth seems to be ok.
I have seen your video and will check behaviour of pawls
Thanks again and will let you know my results
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I have made 2 video’s, one of the wipers and one of the pawl/rachet ( and thereby admiring your skills to make video’s !)
Pawl is hooking one and no double teeth and wipers are moving correctly, so 20 times plunger makes 20 times wiper movement, checking continuity with feed and wiper confirms wiper is off track with rail 10, 5,2 and 20; 100,200 and 250 did not work.
It seems to work like in your video.
Difference:
In your video the beginning of the tracks are clearly visible and not hidden by the arm, looks like starting point wipers is diifferent, as on my system the arm is hiding it. Maybe different disc or I need to do lot of adjustment?
Disc code is m-645-219
https://youtu.be/LG6IOYxtZdk
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7sdU5LWjgXA&feature=share
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when the coil pulls the pawl arm, it's yanking it a lot harder than you are doing in your video. It's possible that two teeth are grabbed when the coil does it, especially if the pawl is close to grabbing two teeth when you do it manually - which it looks like it is. Try pushing hard on the pawl leftwards to see if you can get it to grab a second tooth.
if the following is true:
1] the payout counter steps once for every credit added
2] the payout counter wipers are off the end of the 20 trace after 10 credits are added
then the pawl MUST be grabbing two teeth. If you can video the ratchet/pawls when the game is paying, that'd verify. For credit pay, the payout counter can be flipped down and the link going up to the roller arm can stay detached.
the most common cause I've seen for this is the hole in the pawl where the pawl mounts on the arm pin is elongated from wear so the pawl can move further left than it should. A loose arm pin or badly worn coil stop can have the same effect.
another possibility is the tab on the reset pawl is bent too far to the right. The step-up pawl pushes the ratchet clockwise a little too far so the reset pawl clears the tooth edge and there is a small gap between the reset pawl and the tooth. When the step-up plunger starts moving in for the next step, the torsion spring tension turns the ratchet backwards/counter-clockwise (looking at the ratchet side of unit) until the reset pawl touches the tooth and stops the ratchet rotation. That backwards rotation changes how close the step-up pawl is to grabbing the second tooth when the plunger is all the way into the coil.
you should be able to move the step-up plunger in a little and see the ratchet turn backwards. If not, bend the reset pawl tab a little to the left. The goal is to make sure the step-up pawl is around halfway on the tooth when the plunger is all the way into the coil ... or at least nowhere near the edge of the next tooth.
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Just to be sure before taking risk to beak someting.
With a win of 10 the rachet turns 2 tomes 5 is 10 times but the plunger only count 5
https://youtu.be/p0z3377VC84
When moving setup rachet to the left, the rachet turn fractuin counter clockwise and pawl stays on top of tooth
That is because reset pawl is not stopping the rachet
https://youtu.be/w5QafqOftWs
Wolftalk, I thinkk that is what you are pointing out
Solution is then to bend reset pawl slightly upwards so no room between pawl and rachet
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your second video looks correct. The step-up pawl should push the ratchet so there is a slight gap between the reset pawl and the tooth, and if you pop the step-up pawl out of a tooth like you are doing, the ratchet will turn a little counter-clockwise until the reset pawl stops it. Due to the counter-clockwise rotation, the step-up pawl will not drop back behind a tooth. It's working right, and if anything you'd need to bend the reset pawl a little so the ratchet moves more counter-clockwise when the step-up pawl is popped out.
need to see a video of where the step-up pawl is when the plunger is pushed all the way into the coil against the coil stop like the video I posted at around 1:31 into the video. My finger is just holding the spring out of the way for better viewing - my thumb is pushing the plunger into the coil. Note how the step-up pawl has moved left past the 1st tooth and is about halfway to the 2nd tooth edge when the plunger hits the stop. I'm moving the plunger in/out of the coil a little to show how far the pawl is sliding on the 2nd tooth, but the pawl must not get near 2nd tooth edge ... if the pawl grabs the second tooth also, you double advance the payout counter and your payout is halved.
ideally, a video of the pawls and ratchet when the game is paying then slow down the video replay will show what is going on, but it can be hard to get the right camera angle to see the teeth.
in credit play, the distance the step-up pawl moves is determined by the step-up plunger length and the coil stop. If the plunger or coil stop has gotten shorter due to wear, the pawl will move more and get closer to grabbing two teeth. Wear/elongation of holes/pins/axles mentioned in previous posts can have the same effect.
pics below are measurements of the plunger and stop. The reset and step-up coil stop are the same ... if one is worn more than the other, put the worn one on the reset coil.
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Story continues. I have checked coil stops of both coils, they are 0,401 inch, same as yours; plunger is 1,93 inch, same as yours.
Tried to duplicate your video with pawl movement. Do not know effect of pushing spring aside
Should I try to bend set up pawl in such away that it moves not so much towards next tooth?
Will be challenging if it is so critical
https://youtu.be/1xgME73ZcvI
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your pawl movement looks good, so you are in the interesting situation where it works when manually operating the unit, but doesn't work when electrically operating the unit.
the main differences are how hard and fast the plunger is moving.
if you can do your first video in post #73 with the camera looking at the pawls/ratchet and ideally the entire step-up arm, you may be able to see what is happening.
if that's not doable, then push the plunger in and then try pushing the step-up pawl to the left with your finger to see if you can get it to shift far enough left to grab the next tooth. e.g. push pawl left at red arrow in pic below.
these are things I've seen:
1] the post the step-up arm pivots on is loose.
when the plunger yanks hard into the coil, the post rocks and the pawl moves further left causing an extra tooth to grab. Grab the entire step-up arm and try and move it around to see if it's snug on the post and the post is solidly mounted on the unit frame.
2] the peg/post that connects the pawl to the step-up arm is worn and/or the pawl hole it goes thru is elongated.
momentum from the plunger pulling in hard causes the pawl to shift left and grab an extra tooth. Hold the arm and see if the pawl is snug on the peg/post.
this is the most common of these very rare problems ... i.e. I've seen it twice :-)
3] the springs on the pawls/arms are wrong
if the step-up arm spring is wrong (wrong spring, connected in wrong place, etc.) and it is so strong its pull is "throwing" the ratchet far enough for the reset pawl to engage the next tooth. The shorter and usually redder looking spring goes on the pawl ears (furthest from the ratchet center).
to test this possibility, you can put your finger on the ratchet face with some pressure to create more drag during payout and see if if stops double stepping.
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Wolftalk, I really appreciate your time and help and will follow up your advice and keep trying.
In the meantime I will try to find also another set of pawls which may can solve the issue
Keep you posted
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I have looked back the video and was wundering if speed of plunger is not too low;
The set up coil was broken and replaced it by another one with code B-26-1100 which was written by hand on the old one. Should be ok as I saw they are also used in payout of other continentals
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B-26-1100 is right.
An incorrect coil could be:
- too strong - excess wear on coil stop and possibly excess heat, but it'd work okay
- too weak - unit misses steps or doesn't step
- wrong size - wouldn't fit between bracket and coil stop properly
generally speaking, you can substitute coils with ones that are similar in terms of wire gauge and turns (therefore resistance), and it'll work fine. For a stepper, nearly anything that is the same dimensions will work, but it may get too hot if the coil is activated a lot. All the step-up coil needs to do is teeter-totter the step-up arm and stretch springs. The springs do the work of rotating the ratchet when the coil power is removed.
the plungers have nylon collars around them near the coil stop end ... those still on there?
if you take off the step-up arm, the step up pawl section at the top of the arm should spin easy on the post, but there shouldn't be any side-to-side play.
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Update after holiday and other project.
In credit mode the pawl/rachet combination on hopper did not work, so rachet moves 2 steps and not 1 at the time meaning wrong counting. All wins were counted only half on register.
After long fiddling with pawl, springs, coilstops, coils it looked like the stroke down of the plunger in the counting coil was little too long so adjustments were not possible. I placed very thin washer on coilstop and stroke of plunger is now somewhat shorter. This seems to work for all counting except for win 20, 200 and 250.
For 1 coinplay, win 20 gives 19, win 200 gives 150, win 250 gives 200; all other 1 coins wins are ok
For multiple coins win 20: 2 coin win 40 gives 38, 3 coin win 60 gives 57, 4 coin win 80 gives 76, 5 coin win 100 gives 95 and 6 coin win 120 gives 114.
Sames is valid for win 200 and 250
Any idea what to check next?
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small update: due to all trials contact vinger for 20 payout was misalligned and did not finalise the whole track, adjusted contact so now counting 20 in stead of 19. Working now on the 200 and 250 payout, which should be a similar adjustment.
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the plunger and coil stop are both wear items and eventually need replacing. The outer edge may measure fine, but the stop is usually concave so the plunger end goes into it a bit.
you can try swapping the step-up plunger and stop with another one on a unit in the top that doesn't get as much use.
the link arm the plunger operates is a longer section that pivots on a post and the pawl section that pushes the ratchet. If the post is worn, the hole is worn, or especially the riveted joint connecting the two pieces is worn, then you can get more pawl movement than you should.
grab the pawl section and make sure it can't move without the link arm moving also (make sure the rivetted joint is tight fitting). If the joint is sloppy, then the force of the coil yanking the link arm can pull the pawl further left from the ratchet. If you manually step, you won't see the problem.
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I have checked the plungers in the top units and unfortunately they are all smaller than the one in the set up coil, so it will not work. I do not have much comparison, but it looks like the points you mention are not worn as I compare them with the similar points in the top cabinet counters.
I have adjusted wipers for 200 and 250 win and now counting stops at minus 19; looks like reset pawl is at higher values “stuck” to the rachet; will try to bending “upward stop” a little so pawl gets more space.
Can you tell me what max payout is in payout mode and how to set this?
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the reset pawl should be on the ratchet teeth unless the unit is reset (both pawls are lifted off the ratchet at reset).
the reset pawl prevents the ratchet from turning counterclockwise much when the step-up plunger pulls in.
if you bend the pawl to allow a little more counter-clockwise movement, that will reduce the chance of the step-up pawl grabbing two teeth. When the step-up plunger is all the way in, the step-up pawl edge should be around halfway towards the edge of the second tooth.
the game should be able to pay 250, so the payout counter wipers need to be able to spin around 2.5 times. The outboard wipers should leave their traces somewhere around 15 steps before the end of payout and it doesn't need to be exact (it can't be ... the outboard wipers have too much slop).
if the payout stops when an outboard wiper leaves the trace, you have a problem with the main wiper connection to the C.O. (carry-over) trace or a C.O. trace getting powered issue. First step is clean the C.O. trace surface ... especially the area around 12:00 - 2:00.
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Finally credit mode is working. Changed set up arm with less space between moving parts; adjusted torsionspring so that maximum rotation ratchet is just possible. Gives enough pressure on ratchet to reset after just 2 steps; starting the other way round to ensure reset after 2 steps gave less pressure on ratchet and did not work out.
Adjusted pivot arm upwards.
Thanks Wolftalk for your patience and help!
Next step is to make coin payout working with correct coinsize and “coin inlet”