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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: jerseymike on May 30, 2022, 06:27:11 PM
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Hi there, I’m a new member who just came into possession of this machine. It’s a basket case. Going thru it I’ve found all kinds of strange things. It’s obviously been pieced together. Here are some pics to look at. I’m hoping anyone can help identify the upper odds unit. It says 822 but I can’t find any info that Bally even made a model 822. Any observations would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I’ve done some digging thru the schematics and documents and I found that the reel assembly is a 5 cent variation of 809-ZH. It was converted to 25c at some point. I’m not going to switch it back to nickels. I’d like too but the coin mechanism is for quarters. So I’m going to stick with that. My next step is to identify the odds multiplier unit. Does anyone know anything? Where can I look to identify it?
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It could be another head unit from a similar one line/five coin multiplier. I have worked on these machines many times in the past and getting the pays to be precise can sometimes be troublesome. Good luck either way. The wizard.
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bally model 822 was a bingo pinball machine called "big wheel" ... so safe to ignore the 822 marking.
the 809-ZH had a lot of variations for payback percentage and coin denomination, but they are basically the same machine.
The reel tapes were different because they had symbols like 2.50 and 5.00 on them. The slotted reel index discs were different between the 82% payback and 87% payback machines.
changing denomination .... the coin mech is easy. Some of the other coin pieces and reel tapes not so easy to get the parts.
the odds multiplier unit was used in one style of multiplier machine. All 809s afaik used an odds disc and stepper units that look similar to pinball machine score reels and that looks consistent with your pics.
I do have an early schematic for the 809-ZH ... w-1046-765. It was superceded by w-1046-1803 which I don't have. Usually they updated the schem when they switched to the new style hopper or to molex plugs instead of jones plugs.
your odds unit is probably w-1090-2, but that's unconfirmed. If you can email slotpics@cdyn.com the highest possible resolution pictures of both sides of both stepper units, including enough of the wiring attached to the lugs to see the wire colors, that'll help.
schem is posted on the https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ dumping ground.
email or stick on a cloud drive as many pics as you like of various parts of the game, including the entire front with the glass installed so the pay table can be seen. Unfortunately, size limits on NLG makes it a less useful place for pictures.
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Thanks for insight. I really appreciate it. I’ve narrowed it down and I’ve identified my disks as the 87.5 percent payout 5 cent variation. They have $2.50 symbols on them. They were taped over with cherry and bell and $5.00 symbols???
I’ve sorted out the reel tapes and they are aligned correctly with the slots in the disk. The reel mechanism works. It can be spun and the reels stop randomly as they should. I also adjusted the wipers. Next up is rewiring. There are loose wires everywhere and I need match each one with a schematic. I’ve been using 1804 because I could not find 1803. So far most of it matches up,
So far the biggest surprise was that I found small bolts clamped in some of the disk slots. Why would someone do that? Other than the obvious of course…
More pics tomorrow!
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Post a photo of the bolts in the disk slots please!
I always wanted to buy a machine and find something like that.
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Here are pictures of the reels and one of the bolts I removed at the slot it was in. You can see on the middle index disk the bolt chewed up the slot a little.
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Thanks for the cheater plug photos.
Which slot was blocked out?
Low or high pay.
Got a machine similar to that one someplace.
I’ll take a look. Might be able to help sort out your situation.
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Thanks for insight. I really appreciate it. I’ve narrowed it down and I’ve identified my disks as the 87.5 percent payout 5 cent variation. They have $2.50 symbols on them. They were taped over with cherry and bell and $5.00 symbols???
I’ve sorted out the reel tapes and they are aligned correctly with the slots in the disk. The reel mechanism works. It can be spun and the reels stop randomly as they should. I also adjusted the wipers. Next up is rewiring. There are loose wires everywhere and I need match each one with a schematic. I’ve been using 1804 because I could not find 1803. So far most of it matches up,
So far the biggest surprise was that I found small bolts clamped in some of the disk slots. Why would someone do that? Other than the obvious of course…
More pics tomorrow!
the $2.50 symbols go with the 5c machine. 10c used $5.00 and 25c used $12.50
I uploaded the missing reel tape and index disk definitions that go with the 87% games.
the slot depth needs to match the tape symbol so the wipers are positioned correctly. If they changed a symbol, making the slot shallower with a bolt is one hack.
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Here are some more shots of the machine.
The reel tapes were doctored as well. I've already cleaned them, so unfortunately I have no pictures. Some of the symbols were covered with black tape. The effect was very good. The black coverup tape matched the reel tape almost exactly. Cherries were also added to two of the reels even though there is no cherry on the pay chart.
Now I'm interested in where this thing came from. I keep seeing this model was for the Lady Luck. Can I assume this is where the machine started its life? I certainly hope so. LOL.
Now if anyone has a bellyglass from the lady luck PLEASE contact me. I saw one on an ebay postcard that said "call change girl for free drinks"
***Thanks wolftalk for the uploads of the tapes and proper schematic***
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Where I'm at now.
The coin switch is bad. When I removed it for testing I could hear loose metal inside. Touching all three wires together triggers the multiplier and releases the handle.
The machine doesn't pay at all. Every few spins the hopper "mixes" during the spin, yet no coins come out.
I doesn't matter if its a winner or not the machine is simply not spitting out quarters.
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the coin switch connects yellow wire 30 to blue/yellow wire 23-1 when the tripwire is down, and wire 30 to orange/green wire 74-1 when up.
it doesn't connect all three together at the same time. It's not a big deal if it does, but you may get the first "coin" registering like two coins.
the hopper mixer relay powers when reel one lands on a blank that positions the wipers on the "HR" row on the wiper board. That runs the hopper motor, but the override solenoid is not powered so coins deflect back into the hopper. The idea was to level the coins in the hopper on machines that didn't pay too frequently.
for a win, you need wire to connect thru the reel wipers to a trace on the payout counter disc. When the payout counter is reset, the wipers will connect the trace to wire 93 and power the payout relay. Payout relay turns on the hopper motor and override solenoid, and as coins are ejected the payout wipers step up until they step off the end of the trace and the circuit is broken.
make sure the payout counter is reset, and then you can use a voltmeter with one probe on wire 70 and the other probe poking along the wire 90->93 path to see where the issue is.
I usually clip a probe on a trace on the payout counter, shove the hopper back in and set up a win that should power the trace. If you don't see 50VAC, then either the reel wipers have an issue or wire 90 isn't good. Move probe to wire 90 on reel 3 and see if you have 50V.
if you have 50V on wire 90 but it's not showing up on the payout counter trace, either the plug connections are bad or the reel wipers are cruddy/misaligned. On games without diodes like yours, you can pull the reel mech and use an ohmeter with a probe on wire 90 and other probe along the path to the payout disc wire to see where the circuit is broken.
finding a lady luck belly glass won't be easy. You'll want to measure your frame area to get the dimensions since there's a few different sizes.
is the top glass pay info for the $12.50 symbols just covered in tape, or did they scratch out the ink and paint the back side black? You may have to make reel tapes if you can't find the right ones ... tho I guess you can live with the tapes saying $2.50 instead of $12.50
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Before I start tracing wires with my multi-meter I'd like to sort this one issue. Its a loose yellow and brown wire on the hopper (36). It's attached to the plug pin #7 and the other end is loose. Any ideas where it goes. I've tried to trace it on the schematic but I'm at a loss.
The pictures here at of the loose wire and some shots of the hopper.
My upper glass has had the ink scraped to remove the 2.50 symbols then it was taped over.
My belly glass measures 15 inches wide by 8 inches high.
*edit I have no idea why my pictures are being rotated. They are right side up on my computer before I attach them.
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the plug chart on the schem says hopper pin 7 is wire 36-1.
then ya hunt around and find it at H-6 ... and it goes between reel mech c-2, a coin relay switch and an open-at-4th odds unit switch (open-at-4th is the top step of the odds unit ... 5 coins played).
so, why is the wire on the hopper when it doesn't go anyplace on the hopper? I have no idea.
what's in the area reachable by the end of the wire?
sometimes meters were mounted on the hopper, but I don't see any obvious way to use a meter with wire 36-1.
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thanks for working with me here.
Where is the open at 4th odds unit switch located? is it in the hopper?
There is no 36-2 printed on the schematic that I could find, but there is a 36-3 up top in the feature unit?
I'm sorry I couldn't follow your testing procedures that you wrote up. I'm confused as to what you mean by a trace on the payout disk.
To be clear no winners are paying out. The machine is silent when it should be paying out. I'm hearing no click or anything.
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Try this regarding no payout.
Set the reels to a payout.
Check for continuity across the reel wiper boards
Hook one lead from the meter to the solid gray wire 3rd reel wiper.
Check for continuity from 3 to 2 then 1 wiper board.
The wiper contacts need to be clean and aligned to activate the payout step unit.
The coin switch operates as you mentioned.
Coin depresses the switch to release the coin relay.
When the switch returns it trips the handle release.
These small switches aren’t to hard to fine.
4th coin 0 switch I believe is in the top unit.
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Ahh now I think I get it. The gray wire (90) is the one that “lines up” on a winner and moves 50v to the next step in the process.
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OK,
I've aligned the wipers so they are making good contact with the the center of their prescribed dots.
I've checked continuity (with a winning combo) between each of the reel wiper boards and the solid gray wire(90)...all good
Next I then hoooked up my volt meter to the gray wire and a yellow common. I got 50v. When I checked between gray and orange I got nothing.
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Progress.
I was able to measure voltage at a winning trace on counter. It read 50v.
Then I thought about what DavidLee said about the coin switch. That it needed to return. so I after I simulated a coin by touching the loose switch wires I reconnected just the yellow and orange wires then and spun the wheel to a winner.
Bingo! The hopper paid!
Thanks to you all!!!! There is no way I'd have done this without you. Now I just need to wait for my new switch to come in and work on the cosmetics. I'll post some pics once its more presentable.
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wrt wire 36-2, looks like you found a schematic error.
there's a wire 38-2 connecting the odds disc to the #1 odds lamp (6V circuit), and a 38-2 going from a payout counter step-up arm switch to jackpot relay switches (in the 50V count unit step-up coil circuit).
since the hopper plug chart shows a 38-2 and the 1090-2 odds unit blueprint shows a 38-2, they really blew it. The 38-2 on the hopper plug is out of sequence on the pins, so it was added after the initial design was done.
a picture of the payout counter on an 809-N confirms a yellow/black wire, so looks like they goofed the numbering and the 50V wire should be 38-3 (or whatever is next highest available number ... there's already 38 and 38-1 wires in the game).
sometimes there's holes in the wire id numbering sequence. The schems were done in the days before computer aided design. They often took previous schematics and made changes for a new game. You can see on some schems where they used white-out to paint over unneeded circuits when an eraser wouldn't work well enough.
they didn't renumber wire ids when they erased one ... as long as the ids are unique, the number doesn't really matter. Whether a 36-2 existed on some game or it's part of the muddle with the 38 misnumbering, dunno.
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I received my new coin switch today and the machine accepts coins/registers them up top in the multiplier/releases handle. When I get a winner it overpays by a lot.
Still to do: The insert coin, coin accepted, and winner paid lights do not work. All were replaced with new bulbs but I have not done any further testing.
Investigate the hopper over paying.
Replace the non operational fluorescent lights with led.
Find a belly glass from the lady luck or some other suitably sketchy casino.
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get the pays correct for single coin play first, then deal with any problems with multiple coins.
if single coin is overpaying, you'll be debugging the payout unit step-up coil circuit at schem D12. The hopper switches are closed by a coil lifting the roller arm as it ejects from the hopper, and there's a redundant pair of switches wired in parallel since they are critical.
a jumper from wire 75 to 14-3 will eliminate a bunch of potential problems if payout is still not working with that jumper in place.
lamp issue could be a wire 20 problem. Try measuring voltage between 20 on a lamp and 30 on the coin switch to see if you have 6VAC. If you do, only a payout relay switch and plug connections are left.
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When all 3 lights don’t work, best to check the common blue wire for a possible open.
Also,
Insert and coin accepted lights are partially controlled by the
coin relay located bottom left rear of the reel mechanism.
Check the contacts to the right in most cases.
Your machine may vary.
Also the B switch might need cleaned left side reel mechanism horizontal switch.
Best to clean and check all contacts in there closed positions for continuity on the left side of the reel mechanism.
Cleaning the contacts on the back side left top of the payout step up unit might solve the winner paid light.
In regards to over paying a lot, a possibly could be the payout step up unit.
As it might not be stepping up to keep pace with the correct payout.
Or it could not be resetting all the way and starting out on a higher pay.
Best to check the unit by manually stepping up then manually resetting.
Observe these actions for proper functions.
Also the odds unit could be advanced one coin, doubling the payout.
As Wolftalk mentioned in regards to over payment.
Start with one coin in and set up a low winning combination on the reels.
Let it clock out and observe what happens.
Should be able to observe the payout unit in action.
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I’ve eliminated the blue wire as the source of my light issue. If I jumper the yellow from the coin switch to the non blue side of the Sockets. The bulb lit.
I can’t help but notice if you look at H6 on the schematic you have that 36-1 wire right in the path of all 3 lights. Could that be our mystery loose yellow and brown wire in the hopper?
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unsure about your exact machine, but if the denomination is wrong the machine may think that it is a smaller value coin and thus telling it to dispense "Y" amount when it should be "X". Do you know how much over payment was for the win? That would possibly help.
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I’ve eliminated the blue wire as the source of my light issue. If I jumper the yellow from the coin switch to the non blue side of the Sockets. The bulb lit.
I can’t help but notice if you look at H6 on the schematic you have that 36-1 wire right in the path of all 3 lights. Could that be our mystery loose yellow and brown wire in the hopper?
36-1 isn't really involved with the coin accepted light. The switch symbol means wire 91-2 connects to either 36-1 or 38-1 depending on the coin relay being latched (reset) or tripped.
The only common factor is the payout relay switch and plug connections for wire 91-2.
tmi
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1] at game over after any payout, the coin relay is as shown - connecting 91-2 to 36-1. The "open 4th odds" switch (O4O), which is hanging over the ratchet/gear on the odds unit and is operated by a peg sticking out of the ratchet, doesn't really matter. The insert coin lamp will be on.
2] if there was a payout, the reset pawl switch on the payout counter will be closed, so the winner paid lamp will be on.
3] drop in a coin. The coin relay trips so 91-2 connected to 38-1. Coin accepted lamp turns on. The odds unit reset, so the O4O switch is closed and the insert coin lamp stays on. The payout counter reset, so the winner paid lamp turns off.
4] deposit more coins and on the 5th coin played, the O4O switch opens. The insert coin lamp turns off. If you pull the handle before max coins the reel mech C-2 switch opens and the coin relay resets. C-2 won't close until the spin is done.
the reset position of the odds unit is 1 coined played. The unit steps up once for each additional coin played ... e.g. step 1 is coin 2, step 2 is coin 3, etc. That's why the switch opens at 4th step ... that's coin 5 played.
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Well Wolftalk, You were right about tmi because when I connected the loose 36-1 to the nearest yellow wire, The insert coin, coin accepted and winner paid lights all started behaving exactly as intended. Go figure.
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Well Wolftalk, You were right about tmi because when I connected the loose 36-1 to the nearest yellow wire, The insert coin, coin accepted and winner paid lights all started behaving exactly as intended. Go figure.
I would bet not quite exactly as intended :-)
1] the winner paid and insert coin lights should not turn on until a payout is complete
2] the coin accepted light should stay on after the 5th coin is deposited - before you pull the handle.
3] the insert coin light should turn off after the 5th coin is deposited - before you pull the handle.
if you connect 36-1 to yellow wire 30, the above won't happen that way.
however, connecting 36-1 like that basically says most of the switches are working right. Your problem is either the payout relay switch with grey/red wire 91-2 or wire 91-2 plug connections.
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You were spot on wolftalk. My lights were not operating as intended. You described exactly what they were not doing.
So I disconnected that loose 36-1 from the yellow and began tracing my 91-2. I found a switch that wasn't opening behind the payout counter (the payout relay?) Once I adjusted the leafs, I got the coin accepted and insert coin to behave as they should. I still have nothing on the winner paid light.
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if winner paid was coming on when you had 36-1 connected, the only thing that makes sense is the plug connection for wire 48-1 from the hopper.
the circuit is wire 91-2 on the hopper -> reset pawl switch on the payout counter unit -> wire 48-1 to the lamp.
try jiggling the hopper after a win. If that makes the light work, yank the hopper and clean the plug pins. Also check the socket for pins that are pushed back in the housing.
the reset pawl switch will be on a stack on the ratchet/gear side of the payout counter .... similar to the thing circled in green below. If you jumper 91-2 to 48-1 so it's always closed, the winner paid light should always be on except during a payout.
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Well my reset pawl switch looks a little different. It only has one leaf and one blue spacer. That is definitely the one I’ve been messing with. It has a 91 and a 48. I jumpered it like you suggested and the winner paid light behaved in the way you said it would. I’m still stuck. I’ve think I’ve adjusted the leaf and I’m still not getting anything from the winner paid light. To top it off now the hopper dumps every time I hit a winner and the safety timer goes off. Did I screw up something?
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in this case, the only thing ensuring good switch closure is the pressure the long blade puts on the short one.
1] step up the payout counter so the switch is closed
2] bend the long blade where it enters the stack so its contact is firmly mashed against the short blade contact. You want to see the short blade deflect a little while doing the bending ... tho it's kinda hard to tell depending on what you are bending with as the tool may be moving/displacing the short blade
3] reset the payout counter and verify the long blade is lifted up, the pawls are latched up off the ratchet teeth and the switch is open
4] adjust the short blade to make the gap smaller if you can. If you need to adjust the short blade to make the gap bigger, you'll need to go back to [1] again.
the pawl switch is in the 6V circuit and can't affect anything in the 50V payout circuit. If your behaviour changes when you remove/install the hopper, you either have plug issues or you need to push the hopper in further.
did you clean the plug pins, check for wires breaking off the pins and check the socket for pins that are pushed back into the housing? If the socket female pins look corroded, you may need to get a wire "bottle brush" to scrub them out. I think DavidLee has posted info about cleaning sockets elsewhere, so search for that.
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Well all the lights work correctly now. Wolftalk was right all along. The 36 wire did not need to be connected. The reset pawl switch and the 91 wire were my problems. The machine still pays out a little extra now. Not enough to concern me for my home use.
Now it’s on to cosmetics. Because the reel tapes were black. I ordered a black light fluorescent bulb. However, It didn’t make the symbols pop like I had hoped. I think they are a little faded. I have an idea but I think I’ll make a new thread. Thanks again for all your help!
One more thing, If anyone reading this comes across a Lady Luck belly glass PLEASE dm me.