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Author Topic: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline RILaw

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Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« on: March 03, 2022, 02:56:28 PM »
Picked up this old Bally EM in rough shape that appears to be a 742-A "Money Honey", but I can't find an exact schematic for it.  It has a Jones plug for the door connection to the cabinet, I can't find any pics online of another with the Jones plug connection, along with any schematics that show that 22pin connector.  Someone wrote 783 A-1 on the hopper, and there is no nameplate mounted on the outside of the cab (Nor a spot for one).  I also haven't seen any 742-A's with these door hinges (Hinge on outside of cabinet).

So, what do I have exactly?

Second question:

The power cord had one wire (WHITE) disconnected, with the other (Black) going to the 5amp fuse body, and GND to bottom plate.  Where do I connect the other "line in" WHITE wire?  After gutting it I located a cut RED wire in the wiring going up the cabinet, would that be where I connect the "White" power in wire?

Looking at the schematic the RED  (See highlighted line on schematic) line in wire goes to the Transformer? (Just ends on schematic).  I've seen on pics of other 742-A machines there is a red wire connected to lug #7, but isn't that 220v lug?

 Cliff Notes Answer: British conversion machine (6D "Sixpence").  Power cord WHITE wire to lug #7 after jumpers corrected on transformer for proper 120v usage.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 03:23:41 PM by RILaw »

Offline RILaw

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2022, 03:58:46 PM »
This thing was in ROUGH condition, but I'm determined to save it!

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2022, 05:11:13 PM »
 I am going to say it's a 742.  But I believe it was made for the International market.  Most of the ones that I have seen without the metal case lining and external hinges as you describe were in other countries.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2022, 05:37:14 PM »
I am going to say it's a 742.  But I believe it was made for the International market.  Most of the ones that I have seen without the metal case lining and external hinges as you describe were in other countries.

I did find six pennies with Queen Elizabeth on them, and what looks like a half penny under the mouse poop.  Need to clean them up more to actually read them.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2022, 09:24:05 PM »
783 is "Sir Prize" ... a hold-and-draw made for the UK market.
your machine looks more like a 784 "Lucky Joker" or "Magic Star" that has the payout tube mechanism replaced with a hopper.

unfortunately, I don't have any 783 or 784 schematics.

you can find the paper for model 801 "Penny Star" in https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/  - that's a UK machine with a 24 pin jones plug for the front door and may be similar to what you have for the door plug.  I'm guessing the 801 also had the payout tubes so it'd be close to the 784.

the bally 700 manual in /bally_manuals on the above site has the parts breakdown and some info for the 784.

there's a few things you can look for to help match up some paperwork:

1] pictures of the symbols on all three reels or write them down in order starting from where the tapes overlap.  The m-220-xxx part number is on the tape, but you have to pull the top of the tape out of the tin to see it, so that's a last resort

2] there's codes stamped into the slotted reel index discs ... what are they.  Could be some form of P-484-xxx or a machine id code

3] picture of the payout counter board, or the M-645-xxx number on it,

4] any codes written on the reel wiper boards.

the power supply circuits where pretty much the same on the earlier machines, but it depends what transformer you have in there.   There was often a number on top ... under the rust and now paint :-)

the most common was the E-122-101 and the schematic info on what's going on is kinda ... pathetic.  Look in the /transformer folder on the above web site ... but there's still ambiguity.

I think the most common way it was wired for 120V is power cord black wire (hot) goes to the fuse, and white (neutral/common) goes to transformer lugs 5/7.   Note lug 1/3 are tied together, and lug 5/7 are tied together.  The wires were usually on lugs 3 and 5.  Other guys with USA wired games should confirm tho.

technically, if you had the power cord white and black wires swapped, it wouldn't matter ... but having the hot wire not connected to the payout relay switches and other stuff is a little safer for the technician working with power on.

can you post pictures of the inside of the coin door and the hopper ... or whatever unit slides into the bottom of the cabinet.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2022, 06:51:48 AM »
The transformer "Appears" to be wired correctly for 110v I believe?  I had posted in a slot group on FB and a member instructed me to connect the WHITE power wire to the timer unit, but that does not match any schematic I've found.  I'm still a ways away from even attempting to power this thing up as now I will be breaking down the hopper and reel bundle to derust/clean everything.

I saw the schematic for the 801, but it says the Jones plug is a 24 pin, mine is a 22 pin?

Here is a pic of the transformer (Prior to paint) showing wiring, and a pic of the door insides.  I will take the other pictures in a little bit.

I appreciate you help, Thank You!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 07:20:18 AM by RILaw »

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2022, 10:05:09 AM »
just throwing it out there but if the transformer is wired, and looking at the white wire, is that not a connector does the red push into that
just wondering if the red wire goes to the jones plug to the door is it doing the lights on the belly glass?

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2022, 10:22:23 AM »
just throwing it out there but if the transformer is wired, and looking at the white wire, is that not a connector does the red push into that
just wondering if the red wire goes to the jones plug to the door is it doing the lights on the belly glass?

The push connector you see on the WHITE power wire, I added when I installed a new power cord.  The loose RED wire you see is longer because I added an extension to it, it was cut in the loam behind the plug for the hopper, but I don't see a connection for it on that plug.  So I was wondering if it's as simple as connecting the WHITE  wire to the RED wire? Or do they both go somewhere else....  That's why I was trying to find the exact schematic for this slot.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2022, 12:06:37 PM »
I don't think any bally schem is going to help for the coin door ... looks like someone did their own thing on the door.

do the wire colors match between the jones plug and socket?

the power cord wires afaik always connected to the fuse and the red wire. 

for 120V operation, the red wire then connected to transformer lug 7, tho sometimes it ran off to a power switch and the wire color coming back to lug 7 was different.

black wire 80 is also connected to transformer lug 5 and they ran off to the hopper motor, timer motor, etc.

I downsized the transformer pic and it's below.  The "correct" way to hook up the transformer for 120V afaik is to:

1] white wire 50 from game harness goes on transformer lug 3
2] black harness wire(s) 80 connect to lug 5
3] red wire 10 goes on transformer lug 7
4] power cord white wire spliced to other end of red wire 10
5] black power cord wire attaches to fuse
6] lugs 1-3 on transformer jumpered together
7] lugs 5-7 on transformer jumpered together

note the power cord black and white wires are often swapped with white power cord going to the fuse and black splicing to red wire 10.  Some late model games put a fuse in both wires and that took care or local rules requiring the "hot" to be fused.

since lugs 1-3 are jumpered, the harness wire could be attached to either.  Ditto for lugs 5-7.

tmi
----

if you look at the diagram below and connections per above, for 120V there is effectively two equal length windings on the transformer connected in parallel, so current is split and the transformer probably runs cooler. 

a common way to connected the transformer seems to be like you did it ... white wires on lug 1 and blacks on lug 5.  Red isn't used.  Jumpering lug 3-5 doesn't do anything because nothing is connected to lugs 7 or 9.

one reason you see people jumpering jug 3-5 is they are looking at the diagram for wiring for 220/240V.  In that diagram, you need the jumper to connect the two windings in series, and the black wires on lug 5 are the 120V OUTPUT to the motors.  In effect, a center tap on a longer 240V winding so the voltage there is 120V.

the other reason 3-5 is jumpered is the game was running on 220/240V and was switched back to 120V.   They didn't bother to remove the jumper and rejumper/rewire per bally's instructions.

if you hook it up like you have it ... and lots of games are connected that way ... it'll work.  As a bonus, the wire colors match.  All the current is flowing through one transformer winding, so the transformer may be a bit warmer.   The single winding can handle the current though, because it does it when the game is wired for 220/240V.

having said all that and been way more confusing than usual, it would be great of someone with a transformer handy verifies the diagram below is correct.  Without the jumpers, there should be no connection between lug 3 and 5, and measuring the resistance between lugs 1-5 should be the same as the resistance  between lung 3-7

if you look at some later model schem that used plugs to configure the voltage, the result is like the diagram.  Earlier schematics are a bit of a mess - sometimes red is tied to black, sometimes nothing appears connected, and it's a crapshoot whether it was drawn for 120V or 240V.  There's also a note similar to "for straight 120V games the black power cord wire goes to the fuse". 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 12:41:27 PM by wolftalk »

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2022, 01:25:00 PM »
Wow, Thanks for the in-depth details!  So, remove that jumper, install the two new jumpers, connect WHITE to lug #7.

I followed the cut RED wire I found in the harness.  It goes to the Jones plug, then switches to a PURPLE/GRAY wire that goes to the third lug of the coin switch...So, guess I won't be sending 120v to that lol.

After soaking the hopper wheel to remove rust, I can now read "6D", so its running a British Sixpence hopper wheel for quarters?  I also observed M-645-128-1 on the hopper board.
The reel strips have "B O T B 3" on the third reel strip (Couldn't read the others without damaging them).

Here are some more pics:

Current transformer wiring (Will change it as mentioned), Jones plug showing RED switching to PURPLE/GRAY, coin switch with PURPLE/GREY on third lug on right, Hopper board, Hopper wheel.

Offline RILaw

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2022, 01:25:41 PM »
And the reel strip:

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2022, 02:13:29 PM »
if someone really had the red wire connecting to the white power cord wire, you're probably going to have some fun.    It's more likely it's just coincidence the red wire is sitting near the white one.  There may have been a timer unit sometimes used in the UK installed and when ripped out you have the puzzle.

there's very little on the coin door.  Suggest you compare the wiring to the 801 or other schems.  It'd be unfortunate to short the voltages together.  Also compare the jones socket wiring to wherever it goes to see if colors change at beau plugs - or worse - wires of different colors are spliced together.

if the reel wipers have all been rewired, I'd ignore them until you have to work out any pay problems.

BO-TB tapes went with some "triple bar" models of the 742A.  The part numbers should be m-220-[758, 759, 760].  The corresponding index discs should be p-484-[642, 643, 644]

the bally 742A-253 model used those, tho the payout counter disc and pays are different.  Doesn't matter as long as the appropriate pay traces are there to match the pays on your glass.  Your 100 pay would have to be done via a switch on the ratchet side of the unit since no trace is long enough.

looks like you've got a conversion game, so no schematic is going to match.  The basic circuits should all be there tho so if you wanted documentation you could use an existing schem and make all the wire color changes to match what you have.


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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2022, 02:39:04 PM »
Thanks again!  Once I get the hopper back together I'll correct the jumpers on the transformer and connect the WHITE wire to lug #7 (Probably install a fuse in-line on that as well) and see where its at at that point.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2022, 03:27:42 PM »
the 808-B used the same tapes and reel index discs, so it's likely the reel wiper wiring is the same.  There'd be significant differences in other circuits tho as the 808-B was a 2-coin multiplier.

I think I have the 742A-253 schematic.  If I do, it'll show up on the web site in a few days along with the related game paperwork ... tho all the related stuff is the same as the 808-B 86.35% payback version (probably 5 cent machine)


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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2022, 06:55:23 AM »
just throwing it out there again your incoming power you have ground connected to the fuse, out the fuse to the timer out the timer to the tx
the white i would have thought then went straight to the tx but i cant see where the black wires  on the tx are coming from
if this was mine and i am in the uk i would have wired the hot through the fuse through the timer to the tx and the neutral straight to the tx both on the primary side i would think they have then taken a wire from the tx hot side to the payout relay on the hopper for power to the hopper motor

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2022, 07:09:20 AM »
just throwing it out there again your incoming power you have ground connected to the fuse, out the fuse to the timer out the timer to the tx
the white i would have thought then went straight to the tx but i cant see where the black wires  on the tx are coming from
if this was mine and i am in the uk i would have wired the hot through the fuse through the timer to the tx and the neutral straight to the tx both on the primary side i would think they have then taken a wire from the tx hot side to the payout relay on the hopper for power to the hopper motor

? Ground is not going to the fuse, it's screwed into the metal baseplate.  HOT (BLACK) is going to the 5amp/120v fuse, WHITE was the question, as it was not connected when I got this project.  I assume  "TX" is an abbreviation for the transformer.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2022, 07:33:53 AM »
Also, a seller on ebay did me a favor and sent this photo of his 742-A wiring, again, his machine is nothing like mine, but I do see the RED wire on lug #7.

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2022, 08:00:09 AM »
just throwing it out there again your incoming power you have ground connected to the fuse, out the fuse to the timer out the timer to the tx
the white i would have thought then went straight to the tx but i cant see where the black wires  on the tx are coming from
if this was mine and i am in the uk i would have wired the hot through the fuse through the timer to the tx and the neutral straight to the tx both on the primary side i would think they have then taken a wire from the tx hot side to the payout relay on the hopper for power to the hopper motor

? Ground is not going to the fuse, it's screwed into the metal baseplate.  HOT (BLACK) is going to the 5amp/120v fuse, WHITE was the question, as it was not connected when I got this project.  I assume  "TX" is an abbreviation for the transformer.
apologies i will do it in uk terms
the black is correct (hot)
the white should connect to the transformer direct
what i meant was i couldnt see where the black wires on the transformer came from
i did own the exact same machine at one time but have no photos of connections

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2022, 08:54:47 AM »
just throwing it out there again your incoming power you have ground connected to the fuse, out the fuse to the timer out the timer to the tx
the white i would have thought then went straight to the tx but i cant see where the black wires  on the tx are coming from
if this was mine and i am in the uk i would have wired the hot through the fuse through the timer to the tx and the neutral straight to the tx both on the primary side i would think they have then taken a wire from the tx hot side to the payout relay on the hopper for power to the hopper motor

? Ground is not going to the fuse, it's screwed into the metal baseplate.  HOT (BLACK) is going to the 5amp/120v fuse, WHITE was the question, as it was not connected when I got this project.  I assume  "TX" is an abbreviation for the transformer.
apologies i will do it in uk terms
the black is correct (hot)
the white should connect to the transformer direct
what i meant was i couldnt see where the black wires on the transformer came from
i did own the exact same machine at one time but have no photos of connections

Regarding the two BLACK wires on lug#5 of the transformer, one goes to the timer unit, and the other appears to go through the Jones plug, to the door florescent lighting.

I plan to correct the jumpers on the transformer like Wolftalk advised, for proper 120v usage and connect my WHITE wire to lug#7 on the transformer.  The loose RED wire will be snipped and left as I found it, as I determined it goes to an unused third lug on the coin in switch.  I will also add a fuse in-line on the WHITE wire for peace of mind just in case.

Thanks

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Re: Confirm, is this a Bally 724-A? Also, need help with wiring.
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2022, 11:03:07 AM »
I assumed you are in the USA since we are talking about wiring for 120V mains power ... rhode island?

since there are game wires 10, 50 and 80 (red, white, black) and the power cord white and black wires, it's a bit ambiguous what wires are being talked about.

white wire 50 is always connected to the transformer lug 1 or 3, and if you connect WPC (white power cord) to lug 7 on the transformer - which is correct - the result is odd looking with two white connections and WPC connecting to black game wire 80.

attaching the red wire to lug 7 and splicing the other end of the red to WPC makes the transformer look ok.  It's only the splice and the fuse where hot and neutral appear swapped ... which they are so the fuse is in the hot circuit.

 

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