New Life Games LLC
**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: ucanwin on March 19, 2016, 08:05:13 AM
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I recently picked up this Bally "Grand Old Flag" electro mechanical slot machine. It is not in working condition. It lights up, will accept one coin only, but handle will not release. If I manually allow the handle to pull, it cycles but the hopper will run continuously, even when the cycle is over. The ID plate is missing so I do not know the correct model number. Can anyone identify the model number so I can possibly find schematics for this machine? Thanks in advance, for any help with my new problem child, ha!
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From the exterior photo the machine appears to be a model E1090. First built in 1980.
The interior probably has electronic circuit boards, if so, there is another form on the NLG site specifically for these types of machines. Nice looking machine, good luck.
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I am betting it started life as an EM 1090 not A E1090 if you would please open the door and take a picture just like that with the door open so I can see the inside
sincerely Jon
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This machine is not an E-Series machine. It has no boards. Check out the unusual hopper and payout unit. I have not seen this type of an arrangement before where the payout disc unit is separate from the hopper unit.
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For the game theme alone, I wanted to say it was an early 5000, but I don't know Bally machines well at all. I will show the hubby in the morning to see what he thinks (it you guys don't come to a conclusion by then).
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it definitely is a 1090 to determine the hopper on issue is a different issue then the coin in when you put a coin in does a coin accepted light on the front go on does the coin relay engage?
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and please open the top unit and get a pic
and yes that is a standard hopper for that style machine
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Appears to be a 1090 or 1088. A photo of the door interior would be helpful. The 1088s have less wiring in the door compared to the 1090. Also check your glass for dates, I believe near the bottom of the glass in small print there will be Bally Manufacturing and the date the glass was first produced.
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oh Dave I do not believe the glass Will say ballys I think the machine has been rebuilt
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When the machine is powered up, yes, the insert coin light does light up, but it is rather faint, and at the same time.....the hopper runs. The machine at that point will not accept a coin. If I disconnect the 2 plugs from the hopper payout unit (which stops the hopper from running), then the insert coin is on bright as it should be, but a coin will still not be accepted and the relay on the side of the mechanism opposite the handle does not activate.
On another note: I have checked the handle release coil by running a jumper from the yellow wire on the coin in switch to the non-orange side of the handle release coil and it does pulse. That is with the reel bundle removed. So, that coil should release when a coin is inserted, I think. That is.....if the hopper was not connected.
Picture of the upper unit is attached as requested.
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Here is a picture of the door as requested.
I don't see a name or year on the belly glass. The only marking that I see is HO15995 whatever that means.
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Have you checked the power supply voltages? There should be some fuses somewhere, you can check the voltages there, hopefully there are labels to say what the voltage should be. Some of the symptoms sound like a power supply problem.
Can you post a photo showing inside of lower half of cabinet with the hopper removed? And get close enough that the photo will show the details in there, thanks!
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that tells me the payout relay is engaging for some reason if you look at the picture you'll see I have shoved paper under all the wiper arms that will tell us if it's in the board or if it's in the real machine if you isolated with the paper and the motor still runs it's got to be in the wiring on that board somewhere if it stops running you can pull the paper out from underneath one wiper at a time can you see which one is actually shorted it sounds like you have some experience with Bally's EM machines I hope you understand this I am not good at typing
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I checked the voltages at the transformer. they are 53.4 VAC and 7.06 VAC
I put paper under the fingers on the payout disc as suggested with the hopper in.......and the hopper is no longer running. The insert coin light is on but will still not accept a coin.
More pictures of the lower unit are below as requested.
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I put the paper under all of the payout fingers as suggested and the hopper no longer runs. I then began to remove the paper, one contact at a time, beginning at the bottom contact, and the hopper still did not run.....
until I removed the paper from the top contact.....then the hopper began to run again.
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now if you remove the paper very slowly one finger at a time and plug it back in you will find which wire is causing the hopper to run will work out one problem at a time let's find what's causing the short like I said remove the paper one finger at a time pull off one finger plug it in pull it down one more finger once we figure out what number is sorted then we go back and we find a shorted wire then we'll work on the coin in
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Jon.....I am a little confused. You said to remove the paper one finger at a time......did that, but then you said to plug it back in. The hopper was in. What did you want me to plug in? The hopper started to run when I pulled the paper off of the top contact (#7), but not as I removed the paper from the other 6 contacts. I had to remove the coin bowl from the hopper so I could get in there to work with the paper.
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you found out exactly what we needed to know the top contact you called number 7 is the wire that is shorted somewhere what color wire goes to that contact
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I am not sure about the wire color that corresponds to the #7 contact. I am getting continuity on the 50 coin pay (green wire), and also at the 100 coin pay (black with red stripe).
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can you get a good picture of the number 7 contact
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This is the best that I can do without disassembling the unit.
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so if I'm understanding you correctly with the paper covering all contacts but that one the hopper motor will run
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Not exactly. What I did was remove the paper starting from the bottom one contact at a time. The hopper did not begin to run until I removed the paper from the top contact.
As I am writing this...I went back to the machine and put a piece of paper under just the #7 contact and closed the door. The hopper did not run. I opened the door, and pulled the paper out, expecting the hopper to start running when I closed the door.....but it did not. Now, when I close the door the insert coin light is lit but it will not accept a coin. The coin lockout relay is not energizing. If I open the door and hold the lockout back and drop a coin through, is shows coin accepted (but will only accept one coin) and the handle relay does not release the handle. But the relay on the side of the mechanism (opposite the handle) energizes, so I know that the relay coil is okay. I'm sure that you are probably about as confused as to what is going on as I am. Thank you so much for taking your valuable time to try to help me with this nightmare.
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Ok okay off to electrical circuits if you have not downloaded the Bally's em manual from the file system I recommend you do then we can be on the same page page number 18
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Okay, I downloaded the EM Manual. I tried to print out page 18 but it will only print two thirds of the width, so I have a copy of Marshall Fey's book on Bally machines and he has the same info on pages 20 & 21.
I did notice that your page 18 and also my page 20-21 are for 5 coin machines and mine is a 3 coin. Does that make a big difference?
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no it does not it makes no real difference with the exception of a five-point has more X units and more steps in the Step Up unit
I have never seen the fries en Manuel I've been trying to find a copy to download but everybody wants money for it and like most people I'm cheap
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Let it be known....I am not smarter than a fifth grader! I look at the schematics and admit, I am stupid! I can read mechanical drawings but when it comes to schematics....I am lost in space.
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and that is why we need to be reading from the same book
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From the photo of the door the machine appears to be a 1088.
The top contact on the payout step up appears to be the feed wire/ contact strip.
Three photos attached, the schematic is for a 1090 machine. The other two are from a 1088.
Jon, laminated my schematics like you recommended, works great for tracing out wires.
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Dave do you have a PDF of that schematic I would love to have a copy for a 1090 if not I will give you the money to go have one scanned in
and any other schematics you may have please Dave
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Jon, I think these two pages are the same as the ones in the EM Manual, Pages 18 & 19 correct?
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this gives you an idea of how it gets its power it comes through the coins swhich is on the side of the real machine the biggest problem is the dashpot
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if the dashpot is not returning all the way or sticky it will never put power to the handle release solenoid
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The problem for me is that it gives the color code 52-1 at the handle release coil to the dashpot 57-1 but it doesn't give me (the dummy) the color codes in between the two points. That would make it easier for me to follow.
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first off the color code on that page is not right for your machine I can just about guarantee you
dr. Dash pots which have one or two switches on it?
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The dashpot moves freely. There are two sets of contacts on my dashpot. Both sets are closed at the end of the cycle and have continuity.
Coin lockout and handle release are not functioning.
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I am trying to sell my house I have to show it in a few minutes so I will get in the manual here in a minute and tell you what I want you to do.
Do you have a jumper wire with two alligator clips on it?
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Good Luck with selling your house. We have one to sell too that we moved from 10 years ago. Had tenants in it for about 3 1/2 years. Other than that, it has been empty and a cash drain.
Yes I do have jumpers.
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Sending schematic for the handle release and coin lockout coils.
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Thank you David Lee. Hopefully, I will be able to follow it.
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Sending another attachment, seems the other one that came over 3 times is cut off near the top left.
That is we're the coin switch is on the drawing. I know these things are a little hard to follow, but you have the color code and the numbers are in the boxes attached to the wire.
Have you taken the time to clean and inspect the contacts and wiring? Sometimes this will solve problems.
Look for loose wires at the solder joints and or wire lugs bent and touching. Manually activate the contact switches to see if the contacts are opening and closing. Also missing springs on coil armatures will prevent them from returning to the proper position.
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Appears the schematic is hard to read on the iPad. Hopefully it's ok on your screen. If not let me know.
The Casino is now closed.
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Often when you put the reel mech back in, the dashpot switch (which looked closed when it was out) will actually open because of the 2 1/2 gears on the side as they slide into the handle fork.
To check this, open door, pull toward you on the (dashpot) pump arm, and listen for the coin lockout coil to click on.
You can also pull on dashpot arm while you click the coin in switch with your finger.
You can even (if your ears are good) push back on the handle with door closed and often get the lockout coil to click, if it is not working. Pushing back on handle is the same as pulling forward on the pump arm.
A tip I learned working casinos, how to check lockout with door closed.
On a good working machine, you can actually with door closed very slightly move the handle forward and hear the lockout disengage, and then engage when you release the handle and let it fall back into its normal at rest position.
Regarding schematics -- generally a wire color stays the same UNTIL it goes into a switch stack. Then it comes out as another color AFTER going through the switch.
Wire colors do not just change arbitrarily, there is some method to color change. E.G. it should not change color in a beau plug or other plug, otherwise there would be chaos and the Universe would end due to heat death....
Also, when tracing a 50V circuit, anytime you can come from the 70 wire of a coil, and get all the way back to the 30 wire (common wire), then you have a complete circuit and your coil should be activated. If a switch is open (series) along that path, you got no coil working. However if a switch is open in a parallel circuit, you still should have coil working. Hope that helps in tracing.
Just fyi, all 50V coils eventually end up back at the 30 wire (yellow). It is the common wire...it is the other end of the circuit.
And, on the flip side, any time you can come from the 20 wire (blue) of the 6V circuit and get through all the required switches back to the 30 wire (once again it is the common wire), then you should have that light lit.
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One afterthought to the above. You will note that MOST of the circuits in the pay and the 50V pass through the coin in switch. That coin in switch does a lot of stuff. It is indispensable, and if you follow out both the coin in upstroke (normal position as shown in schematic), and the coin in downstroke (when it is pushed down to go to the odds reset circuit and the coin relay coil) you will understand a lot of how the machine works.
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I tried to do as you said.....opened the door with the mechanism in the machine. I pulled the dashpot pump arm and the coin lockout does not function. If I power the coil direct, it works, so I know that the coil is good, it just doesn't work when it is supposed to. The handle release also does not function when it should but powering it directly, it does engage.
Following the wires has been a nightmare for me. When I get to the contacts, I am not sure if they should be open or closed, and this thing is driving me nuts. I get lost in space trying to follow the circuits. It seems like when I get to one point, things seem to go in multiple directions and before you know it, I don't know where I am trying to go anymore. I have tried working back from the handle release coil and also starting at the coin lockout coil and going the other way, but again before you know it, I am lost. I can't get either to work. I am about ready to give up. It's kind of like banging my head against the wall...it's starting to feel good, ha!
No............actually, it's getting real depressing.
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Re: the coin switch, it works once on the Coin In side as it makes a circuit. It may have some sort of debris inside and the Normally Closed side isn't working, just a thought. As suggested in previous post sometimes a good swift karate chop with the handle side of a screwdriver might help. One of my machine will just stop taking coins durning continuous use. I've had to preform this procedure a few times and it takes the next coin like nothing happen at all.
Also the beau plug after yeas of use doesn't make good contact. Try this, a little hopper movement in, out, left and right while the machine is on. Try your coin switch in each position you move the hopper. You might notice the lights going off and on. A sign of wear.
I'll have to post a photo of my beau plug pliers I use on worn beau plug pins.
The above suggestions are easy to do and sometimes eliminate hours of head scratching. But if this doesn't help, well it's time to get in a little deeper. Keep us posted its always a good learning experience. Also wanted to add this movement technique works well on the reel mechanism as well.
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I picked up a 1088 this weekend and it was doing the same thing. My problem was in the plug on the back of the hopper, if i moved the hopper from side to side i would hear a click and it started working. it would work and then would not . I took the hopper out and cleaned the pins with 400 grit sandpaper. I then very slightly with my finger bent the pins,not to much or they will not go back in the plug. That fixed that problem.
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Right on, sometimes that's all it takes. Like I said it saves from a lot of head scratching.
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Dear ucanwin,
regarding switches, it really does not matter if you know if the switch is supposed to be open or closed. You have to discover what mechanism it is that operates the switch.
Once you do that, you can work that mechanism while you watch each switch. Each and every switch should open and close, or close and open, when the operating mechanism does its thing. You can put a white business card of peice of paper behind the switch stack to help you see.
Also I did a post somewhere on switches you should find and read, but basically when a switch contacts to the other side you should 'see' it push against its mate.
And when it opens you should see light between the contacts.
Now, about your coin lockout coil not working...do you get handle release?
Does the coin accepted light come on after you push on the coin in switch on the door?
That light going on tells you that your coin relay (left side of reel mech) was tripped. Only after it trips will you get handle release.
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old Reno that is why you are the moderator of this site your words are poetic if I knew a tenth of your knowledge and was able to speak half as nice I would be the moderator but you my friend are amazing
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old Reno that is why you are the moderator of this site your words are poetic if I knew a tenth of your knowledge and was able to speak half as nice I would be the moderator but you my friend are amazing
:I_agree_1: :agreepost:
Ron (r273)
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Thanks guys, and that's very nice of you all.
The thing is that I just have had more time working on these things than most of you.
I used to get paid to teach people how to repair them, so as a result I HAD to learn the machines well.
I hope to be able to put together a tutorial or two one of these days on techniques, but my interest is mostly doing solar thermal work and working on my Sol Kitchen which I hope to have ready to hit the road this summer. (Today I'm cooking some root vegetables, and maybe might make some solar Creme Brulee later)
I enjoy being able to help folks with their machines, so that is certainly reward enough for me.
And when I Kack in a couple of years, I hope that someone will go through all the old posts here and on the older website and do a collection of troubleshooting tips.
I've tried to give you all the best of my knowledge, and some of you are smarter than I am and some of you have even better troubleshooting skills than I do.
So I have every confidence that there is a collective enough number of good people here to keep these fine machines running well into the future.
Aw shucks.
I appreciate your good thoughts.
The Bally E/M was a diabolically well designed mechanism, which received countless modifications during its design and manufacture -- mostly to prevent cheating. So many circuits and parts are retrofits learned along the way by the Bally engineers, and others working in the gaming industry. They are, in my opinion, almost infinitely rebuildable. And they teach us a lot of pre-computer stuff. I love working on them, and still learn new stuff almost every time I do. That's why they're so fun.
Yours,
Old Reno
(Craig Bergland)
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old Reno if you get a chance I would love you probably already done it but I would love a little tutorial on the hopper reset circuit in your words and how to test it a guy and I believe Illinois has one and he's going to post on the page soon and I'm not good enough to explain it for some reason I fix them I just can't explain it