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**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: Lee Pfeifer on March 12, 2020, 09:10:24 AM
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Bally 809
It’s under paying by one and sometimes two , on the first coin Column , if anyone has any info on that I would appreciate it
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Here’s my Dilemma .... please help me if you can
Bally 809 not paying properly.
The first column is underpaying by one , the second column is underpaying by two , the third column is underpaying by three , the fourth column is underpaying by four .
Why is that ???
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The machine is great but it underpays one coin if you play one coin, it underpays TWO coins if you play two coins , it underpays THREE coins if you play three coins & it underpays FOUR coins if you play four coins .
Please point me in the right direction.
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Here’s my video of my payout counter , as far as I can see this is preforming correctly .
My machine is underpaying, does anyone have any tips ?
https://youtu.be/lHYv9jwjvMs (https://youtu.be/lHYv9jwjvMs)
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I did scan through there , thank you . I’m still having the same problem, consistent underpays .
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It is underpaying on all plays: one through five coins?
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the only item in the machine that determines the payout count is the item you showed in your u tube video. your counter has to be adjusted at reset, from that point each pulse of the count up coil will move the fingers one position, so for example, a five coin payout, would be the first four finger moves would be on the field, the last pulse would put the fingers off the payout field and into a void. (area in between the foil count fields)this void is what actually stops the count, so each time you reset it two things have to happen, 1, it resets to the same position each and every time, the zero stop switch should be open, 2, as soon as the first pulse is complete the zero stop switch has to close immediately ,no delay, IMMEDIATELY!.
YOU MAY HAVE TO REMOVE THAT COUNTER BAR IN ORDER TO SEE JUST WHERE THE RESET POSITION IS. the method for making that adjustment is using the allen set screw and nut on top of the zero stop switch. make sure the zero stop rubber material is not gummy or sticky, if it is beginning to break down this could also be your problem?
hope this helps
Jim
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since the 809 is a multiplier machine, the payout counter is electrically stepped.
your video shows the the wipers on the payout counter are behaving - at least for a 5 pay and you said a 10 pay also steps off the 10 trace at the 10th step.
there's still a possible mechanical issue, tho, and I'd check that first. If the initial step of the unit is grabbing two teeth on the payout counter ratchet, the effect will be like the unit stepped twice. May be worth backing off the zero step adjust a little to let the wipers move a little more clockwise at reset. Do your checking again manually stepping to make sure the wipers step off the appropriate traces at the right count.
another sanity check is to make the circuit work electrically and see what's going on. Since it's a pita to close the payout relay and you don't want the hopper running, easiest thing is jumper wire 30 to wire 15-2 (the red/white wire on the coin eject switches on the hopper.) Every time you lift the coin eject roller with your finger, the payout counter should step assuming the odds disc is reset. It'll step as appropriate for higher odds too, and so will the X[2-5] units.
That'll let you electrically step the unit and look at where the wipers are after whatever step you like.
if it's not that, it implies the payout counter is stepping up when it shouldn't, and you can verify after a short pay that the wipers are off the correct trace.
reset/coin the game and yank the hopper without spinning the reels. If you push in the reset solenoid plunger, do the wipers move towards reset ... i.e. did the payout counter step once?
if no, play a game without winning and yank the hopper. Payout counter stepped?
if yes for either, you'll need to track down where that step-up pulse came from.
theory:
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the only place a payout counter step up pulse is supposed to come from is the two redundant switches on the hopper that close as a coin is ejected. If one has such a small gap that the payout counter is stepping as soon as the payout relay powers due to arcing, that could be the problem.
if you have an intermittent connection in the circuit that cause the payout counter step-up to happen more than once - sometimes you'd see arcing - then you'd expect the short pay amount to be variable, not always 1.
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Wolf ,
Thank you for the response, here’s where I’m at with the payouts
https://youtu.be/KsIG9LOua9g (http://youtu.be/KsIG9LOua9g)
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inconsistent payout would imply a poor connection. Overpay is a missed step-up of the payout counter, underpay when the payout counter steps off the end of the trace is a dual step due to arcing (or possibly the mechanicals of the first step since the position of the gear teeth is determined by the zero stop, not the step-up and reset arm pawls). Underpay when payout stops too soon is usually cruddy wiper/trace contact on payout counter.
you can shotgun check/clean all the switches in the circuit, or you can use a jumper to bypass things. Which do you prefer?
if a jumper, you'll want one end on wire 30 ... know how to find a place that wire lives?
also, if you'd like to youtube a video of your hopper outside the cabinet or verify the following, that'd help:
1] the override solenoid and knife switch are there and working
2] the pinwheel is correct for the coin denomination
3] the roller arm is low enough that when a coin goes under, the switch blades travel a decent amount, you get good switch action and the switches are clean and gapped reasonably.
by "good switch action" I mean the moving blade keeps moving and shoves the other blade around 1/16" after the contacts touch. That causes the contacts to swipe across each other ... good mechanical contact and kinda self-cleaning. If the moving blade contact barely touches the other contact and there's no real overtravel, the switch won't be reliable.
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Wolf ,
You are a genius , you really make me think , and I appreciate you taking the time to help me .
I’ll make a video of the hopper out of the machine real quick .
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Here’s the video of the hopper out of the machine
https://youtu.be/ifPD8FNyVgQ (https://youtu.be/ifPD8FNyVgQ)
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Try adjusting the spiral cam stop, as to let the cam move back slightly.
Thus allowing the contacts to ride back. This may solve the the under pay problem.
Make note of the adjustment position prior to adjusting.
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it's a little hard to see the switch adjust, but you get the idea.
the roller needs to pulse the switches closed with decent overtravel ... that looks ok. The pinwheel looks ok too. The knife should be knocking the coin closest to the roller off the pinwheel when the override solenoid loses power. That's how they prevent the roller from being partially lifted at the end of payout or lifted too quickly at start of payout.
you don't want the switches closed a long time since coins shoot out pretty quickly. You need the switches open long enough for the payout counter step up coil plunger to completely pull out of the coil. If necessary, raise the roller arm so there's less switch movement or adjust the switches for less close time while still having the overtravel
when you have switch stacks with those fat metal blades in them, you want to bend the fat blades where the enter the stack to adjust the contact gaps. They limit the travel of the blade below, which should snug up against the fat blade when the contacts aren't touching.
it's not that finicky or it would be a maintenance nightmare. I'd:
- make sure the blades below the fat ones are straight and snugged up against the fat ones when the switches are open
- the moving blades aren't curved and touching the fat ones
- you get your switch contact overtravel when the roller is on the top of the coin passing beneath it
- if you want bigger switch gaps, adjust the fat blade ... that will move the blade below it down at the same time
if you have a total out meter, does the amount it increments agree with the number of coins ejected? You usually need the front door closed or the door switch held closed for the total out meter to work.
when you're happy that the switches are solid, if you're still getting flaky payout then you're probably going to need to use the jumper wire.
oh, one other thing you can try ... see if you have payout issues when the pinwheel is fully loaded with coins, but if every other coin is missing, it works ok. Obviously you can only do that for small payouts or empty the hopper and stick in one coin at a time during payout ... hopefully you won't time out too quickly.
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Wolf,
Please tell me about the jumper .
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you want to jumper yellow wire 30 to red/white wire 15-2 and stick the hopper back in.
a convenient wire 30 will be on the hopper overflow switch (thing the arm/golf ball operate in the hopper bucket), and 15-2 is connected to all three of the roller switches.
with the jumper on, if you manually lift/release the roller (close the switches the roller operates), the payout counter should step. Hold it up and the payout counter coil should stay powered and probably be buzzy. Don't hold it up more than a few seconds, but you want to see if you keep the roller switches closed whether the step-up coil powers/unpowers erratically. That would mean a bad connection between the switches and the coil, most likely one of the jackpot lockup relay switches since they don't change state much, so don't have switch action to scrub the contacts.
you can also hold up the roller and jiggle the hopper to see if it's a plug connection issue.
you can leave the jumper on and play the game / make it payout however you like. If the payout is solid, then the issue is "upstream" of the roller switches (payout relay switch, plug connections, and less likely reel mech switches).
if your problem does seem to be downstream of the roller switches, you can jumper around the jackpot relay switches. Move jumper or add another one from the orange/white wire 75 on the roller switches to the red/black wire 18-2 on the odds disc. That'll remove the jackpot lockup switches from the circuit.
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WolfTalk,
Thank you for taking the time to help me , I may have to use the jumper , but for now I’m getting accurate pays on single coin plays about 50% of the time .
I’ll report back , I’m running lots of coins through the machine right now & looking for problems .
Again ..... thank you
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if nothing else, manually operate the two jackpot lockup relays a few times with power off. Assuming switch action is decent, that'll scrub the contacts.
below is probably your odds unit diagram. Compare the wire colors/placement of your unit to the diagram. I have other 809 odds unit diagrams, but easiest thing is post a picture of your unit showing wipers and lug wiring.
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WolfTalk,
What is the jackpot lockup relay ?
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the jackpot lockup relays are the two relays labelled 55 on the diagram below.
if anyone reading this manages the site, it would be nice to make the maximum image size for upload a lot bigger. Then people could post pictures of the insides of the machines at a resolution high enough to read labels. Storage and bandwidth should be non-issues for hosting costs.
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Thank you Sir . I will inspect and report back .
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WOLFTALK,
Again Sir Thank you for your help , I just cleaned that area you mentioned in the diagram above ( part number 55 ) the leaf switches had a little dirt / black stuff on them , I super cleaned it and now I’ll run a few hundred coins through and I’ll circle back and let you know if there is a change on my 809 underpaying.
Thank you,
LEE
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Jim ,
Thank you for your response, I just now saw it , I was called away on business. Anyways I still have a underpay situation, and on my payout counter I don’t have the Allen wrench and the little sticky bumper , mine has a 5/16 bolt and a lopsided looking black washer that rotates and well anyway I’m still stuck with the underpays about HALF of the time , but I totally dig what you are saying and I’ll meditate on this and I’ll share my discovery when it happens,
Thank you,
LEE
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Skater ,
I just now read your question, ( is it underpaying on all five coins ) yes it is but I know why it’s underpaying on second, third , fourth and fifth coin ( the little pinball reels in the upper unit are dirty ) I’ve been through this with my 1090 , initially I though the across the board underpays were not related to the pinball reels , but I only can fix one thing at a time so at this time I’m tackling the single coin underpays.
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Nice video / demonstration on the payout step up unit.
I’m not at a machine right at the moment to preform the same test.
But from memory for example on the 5 coin payout.
The coins are paid out when the contacts are on the metal receiver strips.
As soon as the contacts step off the strip the knife kicks coins and motor stops.
In your test the contacts left the strips after coin four, thus no coin five could be dispensed.
At this point I would adjust the spiral cam stop to allow the cam to move further back.
This would be a simple adjustment that may resolve the coin problem.
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my understanding of the problem currently is that it intermittently pays correctly about half the time, +1 or -1 coin the other times. Happens for different payout amounts, so a single trace/wiper contact on the payout counter isn't the problem.
multiplier pays when 2+ coins played were consistent ... e.g. 3 coins played and the mispay was +/- 3, implying the payout counter was missing a step or making an extra one.
if the zero stop is allowing the wipers to reset too far, you'd expect an overpay or correct pay
if the zero stop didn't allow the wipers to reset far enough, you'd get underpay or correct pay.
an intermittent "correct pay" in the above cases could be caused by the payout counter wiper contacts falling off the edge of the trace. Sometimes it makes the circuit, sometimes not.
problem is coming up with a reason why the zero stop setting could produce and underpay AND overpay.
'course, cruddy connections could cause an overpay and zero stop setting an underpay, so two problems at the same time.
it may also be possible the pawl adjustments are off and the stepping is not consistent.
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Wolf ,
There is also two 5/16 bolts on the wafer board on the payout counter and they can be loosened and wafer can be turned clockwise or counterclockwise 🔄 to move the fingers slightly back or slightly forward, mine is adjusted as far as it will go .
And keep in mind my zero stop bumper is not the Allen wrench type , but in a perfect world I could adjust the zero stop one direction and it would underpay by one and I could go the other direction and it would overpay by one and in a perfect world I could find the perfect spot between those two points , I’m just not there yet .
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David Lee,
I think you are right , I’m trying to get there , please understand my zero stop bumper is not the normal one , mine looks like this
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Cam stop adjustment is normal for the earlier type machines.
Make a mark on the rubber cam washer, extending it onto the metal carriage for a reference point.
This will make adjustments a lot easier.
In the past when I’ve worked on machines where there wasn’t any negative adjustment left.
Or for some reason the contacts wouldn’t move back far enough.
There is another way to achieve the same results.
Simply arc the contact blades, thus bring them back just enough to preform properly.
Also check the return spring tension. If it’s weak, this also could be a problem.
Test by manually turning the cam about half way. Depress the reset plunger, it should retract without hesitation.
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David,
Look above my leaf switches at the zero stop , there is a heavy metal blade above the leaf switches, that blade or position might be hampering our progress.
Bending the fingers is a good idea ! Would I just have to bend that lowest / first one ?
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you may want to stop for a second and consider what messing with the zero stop can accomplish, especially considering your video showed the payout counter is operating correctly.
The zero stop position and/or twisting the contact plate can cause an underpay OR an overpay, but NOT both unless there is a second problem working in conjunction with it.
if your game is ONLY underpaying, or ONLY overpaying, then ignore all the rest of the below.
keep in mind what the payout counter is doing ... the payout ends when the wiper contact steps off the electrically energized trace because the payout relay loses power, which in turn unpowers the hopper motor and override solenoid so no more coins come out.
on the 809, payout multiplication is done by electrically stepping the payout counter. Not coincidently, the payout counter stepping rate is one step for every 1,2,3,4, or 5 coins ejected.
your video shows that stepping off the end of the traces are working correctly. You can use your meter approach and when the penultimate and last step is done, wiggle the wipers a little and see if you disconnect/reconnect the circuit. If so, that implies the wiper contacts are too close to the trace end and it may be intermittent....but that would give you either:
- correct or overpay if wipers didn't step off far enough
OR
-correct or underpay if penultimate step wipers are stepped too far.
I can't think of a way you'd get underpay, overpay and correct pay with just one root cause except a flaky connection that causes missed pulses from the coin eject or creates extra ones, and that would not be on the payout counter contact plate, it would be in the payout counter step-up coil circuit.
that's the point of the jumper wire and manually lifting the coin eject roller. You're looking to see if you can get the payout counter step-up coil to not step or step multiple times for each roller lift. If you lift the roller really slowly, you may find a point where arcing/barely connecting causes the step-up coil to fire multiple times. That would be normal, but really bad if that's the distance the coin lifted the roller.
you can ignore the below because it probably doesn't apply, but if you want to wrap your head around the whole thing, once you figure out what I'm talking about the mechanics may make sense.
---------- extra confusion below -------------
where things get a little more complicated is the way the unit physically steps. There's a pawl on the step-up arm that pushes the ratchet/wipers around, and another pawl on the reset arm that prevents the ratchet from spinning back the other way (much) when the step-up coil powers. In addition, when the unit is reset those pawls are lifted off the ratchet so it can spin to reset position freely, and then the zero stop is what is stopping ratchet rotation.
if you push in the reset coil plunger and let go, it doesn't come back out of the coil all the way because the pawls are latched up off the ratchet. At this point, you can spin the wipers with your finger counter-clockwise and let go. They will whizz back to reset.
once reset, the first step flops both pawls onto the ratchet teeth and needs to grab the teeth correctly. If you spin the wipers with your finger now, they will click-click-click as the pawls ride the teeth and stay put when let go.
a way off zero position could cause problems with which/how many teeth are grabbed in the first step. In theory, you want to set the zero stop so there's a small gap between the reset pawl and a vertical ratchet tooth edge when the pawl flops down. In practice, as long as the pawls don't flop down on the tip of a tooth so they could sometimes sit on the tip and sometimes fall off the edge, you're good. The teeth are so small you'd need to be unlucky to set the zero stop at a place that caused a problem. The first step will push the wipers around the right amount.
if you are happy with the pawls grabbing teeth and stepping ok, but the wiper contacts are too close to a trace end, you can loosen the contact plate and twist it a little to get the wipers off the trace at the appropriate step.
if you are unlucky and have the zero stop off, one of the following can happen:
1] the first step doesn't push the ratchet around very far, so the wipers don't move much and all you did was get the pawls seated on the teeth correctly. Result = overpay by one step
2] the first step grabbed two ratchet teeth instead of one, so the wipers moved too far. Result = underpay by one step.
3] the pawls are lined up to the ratchet ok, but the initial wiper position is off by a full tooth. Result = either overpay or underpay by one step, depending on which way the wipers are off.
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WolfTalk,
I finally understand the B switch and the zero switch, they serve to reset the payout counter and I understand that I can bend the zero switch closed .
I’ll use the VOM meter and the jumpers , and I’ll report back
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Good morning!
I’m still battling with the 809 and it’s tendency to underpay , I’m exploring how to possibly remedy this mechanically. Here’s my video , I’ll share my progress and discoveries right here , this is my favorite group and my favorite place to hang out , thanks for all your help !!!!
https://youtu.be/V4VnmaJ3gFc (http://youtu.be/V4VnmaJ3gFc)
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loosen the zero stop switch screws and twist the switch stack away from the outboard carriage (the big metal thing). The top blade is not supposed to be lifted up like that.
does it matter? Nope. Wedged where it is it slightly changes the zero stop position, but that blade isn't connected to anything electrical, right (there's no wire on it)?
your initial video said that cherry paid 2, "sometimes 3, sometimes 1".
have you got it to only underpay now, or is it still paying +/- 1?
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https://youtu.be/Z7YR-5ZER1I (https://youtu.be/Z7YR-5ZER1I)
Short video of step up unit out of working machine.
Like I mentioned before, contact blades can be bent to a greater arc as to make fine adjustments if needed.
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The limiter blade on top of the switch stack needs to be moved as mentioned previously by wolftalk.
This is preventing the switch lever to ride up under the washer onto the black rubber cushion washer.
There’s probably another 16th + of movement that has been restricted.
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Here’s the next video , https://youtu.be/yU06_7kolQ8 (http://youtu.be/yU06_7kolQ8)
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Watch the video above , removing that limiting plate fixed ALL payout issues , it was underpaying one coin when I would play one coin , it would underpay two coins when I played two coins three on three , four on four and it would short you five coins if you played five coins , I removed that plate and now everything pays like it should.
:thank_you: Thank you to everyone who helped me walk through this and I’m so fortunate that I do not have to walk alone .
I’ll be here to answer any questions.
Thank you friends !
LEE
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Nice work Lee.
Obstructions can go un-noticed for awhile. Somehow that limiter on your machine got knocked over.
Or someone thought it was suppose to be under the washer.
In the past working on Pinball machines with 100s of switches this is a common problem to look for.
And it might take a day or two to pinpoint.
Will see what happens next, hopefully nothing major.
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David, I’ll run a 1000 coins through it and count each payout , and see through that test , what if anything needs attention.
Thank you for your assistance Sir !
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anyone else not happy with this?
the parts manuals show that "switch leaf" in there, and given it's width it does seem like it was intended to go between the eccentric bumper and the stop arm (or whatever you call the thing the red arrow is pointing to in the pic below). Is it intended to help decelerate the impact or at least spread if over the rubber?
also, it seems really unlikely that the thickness of that leaf would make the entire setup not work, and the eccentric bumper adjustability is useless because it's set to an extreme end of it's range.
if you look at davidlee's pictures, the stop arm at reset should be angled left/down and bottomed out in the hole. Your arm is angle left/up. Is it stuck in place instead of pivoting? That would prevent the wipers from resetting to the correct position.
I don't have an old-style payout counter, hopefully someone who does can take a look and see if your reset position makes sense.
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You are right, the leaf goes between.
I have two machines, one has the leaf between and the other does not.
Both of them pay correctly.
The one with the leaf between starts with the contacts on the receiver strips and steps 4 time then off on count 5.
Exactly like your machine did, but this machine pay correctly.
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Note the leaf blade is on backwards allowing the switch arm to stop on the washer.
Which is incorrect, but works.
First chance I will make it right and test.
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Okay, turn the blade over without making any adjustment to the washer/cam.
The machine works fine, it’s the 831-ze on the left.
So it looks like we’re back to square one.
The under pay problem.
Sorry for any confusion.
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I’m on the second day of rigorous testing of the payouts on my Bally 809 , she is running flawlessly and paying flawlessly since I removed that “ limiter “ / piece of metal at the zero stop .
I’ll report back
LEE
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The machine should have a 20 pay contact strip.
If you manually run the step up 20 time, I would be curious as to where it stops.
Also, you might want to check the carriage for free movement.
As not to bind up on the reset. Just a thought.
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David ,
It’s working perfectly now. I’ve ran 1000 coins through it and it pays accurately, I’ll run 10,000 more through it and report back .
Lee
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Sounds good, maybe there’s a little more adjustment on the cam washer as to put the metal piece back in.
Anyway, nice that it is running good.
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david,
does your stop arm pivot freely on the stud on the right end?
lee,
something on your setup probably isn't right, but I guess you've compensated for it. I like a reasonable explanation tho :-)
afaik on an electrically stepped payout counter, there's no adjustment that changes how the pawls grab the ratchet and how far the arms move. ... assuming the coil stops are good, nobody bent the tabs poking up from the frame, the ratchet teeth aren't worn, and the pivot point where the pawl connects to the arm hasn't elongated so the pawl behavior is erratic (part 42 on the below diagram. It happens. I changed one on a pinball machine a few days ago that caused erratic stepping).
if you're bored, what I'd do is:
1] take the payout counter off the hopper ... you can usually just remove the top screw and flip it down ... then manually step/reset the unit and look at what the pawls are doing. Verify it's grabbing one tooth only on the first step.
if when manually stepping it looks like it's almost going to grab an extra tooth, that's a problem. The coil yanks the plunger in a lot harder than you, and it'll move the pawl a little more.
2] look at the traces and how the wiper contacts are stepping off them. It's kinda hard to see behind the carriage, but if you step the unit far enough, the carriage may move enough so you can verify the shortest traces aren't deformed or burnt, and like david said, see if the wipers are stepping off at the right count.
since they must be if you are getting correct payouts for all pays, now just need to figure out why it's working with the zero stop that far off the "normal" position.
in your video the unit was operating correctly when you were manually stepping it with the meter attached ... so what's different when the game is doing it?