**Reel Slots** Gaming Machines => Bally Electromechanical => Topic started by: SPN on July 28, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
Title: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 Rebuild the 861 hopper to a 903d hopper
Post by: SPN on July 28, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
Hi
I just bought this machine and I have just started the restoration and it looks like the hopper is not the right one for this machine or there is some other issues with the hopper/machine.. When I insert the hopper the 5amp fuse goes and it makes a flash and burn mark on the 100 coin Wiper Assembly
I guess I need to start somewhere and wonder how I can see if it is the right hopper payout unit or what’s wrong?
:thank_you:
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: DavidLee on July 28, 2021, 06:42:20 PM
It appears high voltage is crossing over into the 100 / jackpot payout. There could be a loose wire strand or metallic object shorting this particular circuit.
Examine the payout relay top left back of hopper. Also any related jackpot relays.
Regarding the correct hopper, check the wiper boards for identification inscriptions. Also the hopper chassis might have been marked with the model number.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on July 28, 2021, 07:42:50 PM
the 903A - 903D and 903F all used the same reel wiper wiring, payout counter disc (m-645-144 on it) and reel index discs (unless your reel 3 index disc has 684-91 stamped on it)
the 903-A docs are on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/
the reel tapes were different, but that's not really relevant to your issue.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 28, 2021, 08:39:20 PM
Here’s a picture of it and it says m 645 - 118
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 28, 2021, 08:41:23 PM
Here’s the picture of the payout counter disc.. 645-118 so that can maybe be the problem?
Thanks guys 😇😇
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on July 28, 2021, 10:10:18 PM
now ya gotta verify.
the -118 disc may work ... it just depends on whether the needed trace lengths are there for the payouts you need. Got a picture of the entire front of the game showing the reel strips and payouts?
you also would need to compare the entire wiring of the hopper unit to what the schematic (and the plug chart on the schematic) says.
if someone just stuffed a random hopper into the game that had the right size beau plug, you'd kinda expect some fireworks :-)
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 29, 2021, 01:33:39 AM
Here's a picture of the machine :)
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on July 29, 2021, 09:20:50 AM
ok, the m-645-118 payout counter disc will work fine. It doesn't have the ability to pay 40, but your game doesn't need it and maybe no mustang models did.
w-923-147 below is what my docs say should be in a mustang, and the second one is how a -118 disc would be wired, so you can verify those.
assuming your payout disc is wired correctly, pull the hopper, stick paper under the outboard wiper fingers, and use an ohmeter to see if you have an almost zero ohm resistance between the 100 trace and wire 70 on the beau plug or any coil on the hopper.
if the 100 trace is ok, leave a probe on wire 70 and poke the outboard wiper fingers, 50 trace and 200 trace.
also, is where the white wire connected to the 100 trace outboard wiper finger bent and shorting to the metal carriage?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 31, 2021, 02:52:44 PM
I got no respond either on the 100, 50 or the 200 hundred when I connect from 70 (total orange) but when I tried from 20 I got a respond as you can see from the pictures.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 31, 2021, 02:53:34 PM
Picture 2
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on July 31, 2021, 03:23:43 PM
1] how many pins are on the hopper plug and the socket inside the cabinet?
2] do the wire colors on the hopper plug pins match the diagram below? (I always forget if the diagram is looking at the plug pins or the socket...there's numbers on the thing, but it's easier to match the pattern of unused pins).
if you stick a probe on the 20 trace and poke the wire 23 pin (pin 5, blue/yellow wire) with the other probe, you should get zero ohms. Poke wire 70 pin and you should get infinite.
it sounds like your suspicion that it's the wrong hopper might be right ... but you can probably make that hopper work by rewiring the beau plug.
a sanity check is compare the wire colors on the plug and socket ... they should be the same at each pin position. If they aren't, it's not necessarily safe to just rearrange the hopper plug to match. It may work since bally often used the same colors in the same circuits on differnt games, but you should verify each wire.
if nothing else, make sure the 120V wires are connected to the hopper motor and payout relay switches correctly. You really don't want to short the 120V onto the 50V or 6V circuits.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 31, 2021, 11:29:49 PM
Yes they look different if you compare the two pictures..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on July 31, 2021, 11:33:02 PM
Here’s the other picture of the socket..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 01, 2021, 12:40:16 AM
yeah, that's not gonna work.
back to david's comment ... is there any writing on the hopper? A lot of times black sharpie was used to write the model number on the hopper front. If you have that, it'll make life easier working out if you have all the necessary pieces on the hopper so rewiring can make it work.
a 30 pin hopper plug was common on 809 models, but it could be anything.
are you familiar with the wire color codes? e.g. black with red stripe would be 81 or 81-x.
it'd help if you can write down the wire codes or colors at each pin location on the hopper plug. You can see the pin numbers on the plug housing.
your cabinet socket looks right comparing it to the plug chart posted previously, so without any more info on what model the hopper came from the next step after writing down all the wire colors is see if your hopper has colors that don't match any socket wires, and see where they go on the hopper.
if you're bored, you can rewire the hopper plug to match the socket/plug chart and then verify where the wires go ... gamble that it's going to work so it's not wasted effort.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 01, 2021, 03:54:10 AM
Since the hopper was rusty and in general very bad condition I remade it with parts in pretty good condition and I just saw that the old front says 861 if that make any sense?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 01, 2021, 10:10:02 AM
861 I have no info on, so you're going to need to do one of:
1] move the wires on the hopper plug so they match the socket and hope it works. You have a reasonable chance and as long as the solid green (40), white (50), and black (80) wires match, you won't be shorting the 120V onto anything else.
2] for each pin on the hopper currently, write down its color and where it's going, then compare to the 903-A schematic and see if the wire color is the same for that function. e.g. the wire going to the 20 trace on the payout counter is blue/yellow (23); the wires going to the payout relay coil are orange (70) and grey/yellow (93); etc.
I'd probably do both at the same time ... if the current wire on a pin is the right color, confirm where it goes. If it's the wrong color, confirm where it goes and move it to the correct pin.
you probably need to move a wire or two on the payout counter to make the right wire colors connect to the right traces per the second diagram in post 7, so I'd check/fix the wiring on the payout counter traces first, then do the rest.
does that make sense? To do it, you'll need to read the schematic and the color codes on the schematic.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 01, 2021, 02:04:26 PM
I’m just done comparing my wiring with the 809b and it’s 99% the same. See picture and the Red Cross is blank on my beau plug
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 01, 2021, 04:24:10 PM
ok, wiring shifted because the 903 has wire 10-2 connecting to a payout relay switch, and that switch doesn't exist on the 809B. It's for the bell.
do you need help figuring out what to do or are you okay now?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 01, 2021, 09:42:02 PM
I guess I need all the help I can get but I’m learning a lot thanks to you :)
So that means that I start with a blank and 13 (2) and 14 (3) and so on.. and is 36-1 and 36-2 the same or do I pass that one?
Do I need to change them all, like start move them over to a new beau plug (I got an extra beau plug if needed)
What about those that not exist like 10-2 45 38-1
36-1 and 36-2 shal be on the same place or?
38-2 I can see is moved all the way down so I guess that one I move up like on the 903b ..
I will try to start re wiring tonight I guess even that I never done something like this before and I could never done this without you guys :)
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 02, 2021, 07:48:35 AM
in this case, the instance number on the wire id (the -x part) doesn't matter. You just need to match the color code because all the wires on the hopper plug are different colors.
what i'd do is fill in a table that looks like this:
903 plug
pin #
id 903-A / schem loc.
id 809-B / schem loc.
function
1
10-2 / V19
none
wire from payout relay to jackpot bell
2
13 / J31
13 / 6T
wire to 2 trace on payout disc
...
if you're not too familiar with the schematics, I can go thru that, but can't get to it until tomorrow.
do you have extra parts for the machines? If there isn't a 809-B payout relay switch you can repurpose for the bell circuit, it's possible to add another switch if you have the blades, longer screws, and there's an available place to put in in the relay stacks (the blade lifter has a place to add a switch).
got pictures of your payout relay from a few angles?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 02, 2021, 08:48:13 AM
Thanks I will try to learn at the same time but reading the schematic is till hard :)
Yes i do have several boxes of different parts so I probably can add what’s needed..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 02, 2021, 08:49:28 AM
And here..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 03, 2021, 06:23:51 PM
can't tell from picture if the other switch stack is also using all the slots in the lifter.
not sure if you want more info or you're going to figure it out yourself. Let me know if more help wanted.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 03, 2021, 09:48:12 PM
Im not sure what to do from here and was waiting for how and where to add the extra blade for the bell circuit :)
You need more pictures?
And If you please can help me with the beau plug wiring? I’m not sure where all the wires goes 🤗
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 04, 2021, 10:34:44 AM
oops ... missed the second pic of the payout relay.
here's the issues so far:
1] you need an extra payout counter close-at-zero switch. May be able to use / add a switch on the reset pawl. Got a pic of the ratchet side of the payout counter like below (reset pawl switches are circled in green).
2] the 903-A didn't use a delay relay. I assume you have one under the hopper with a capacitor/diode attached. You can leave it for now, but the safety motor circuit may not work right.
3] you will need to add a couple switches to the payout relay unless you have ones on there that aren't needed anymore. I will look at the payout relay later today.
4] do you have any meters on the hopper?
in the meantime, you can move the wires on the plug for every wire that does not say "yes" in the problem column below. The wire colors will match the cabinet socket except pin 3. For pin 3, the cabinet wire will be 14 and the hopper wire will be 45.
for example, red/yellow wire 13 needs to be on pin 2. On your 809 hopper it's on pin 1, so it needs to be moved.
once the wires are moved, the hopper should work well enough that it won't blow fuses and it'll probably pay. The wires with a "yes" in the problem column affect the bell, draw and meters.
you know the color codes or can look at the chart on a schem, right? There's also a sticky topic with the color code info.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 04, 2021, 01:34:47 PM
Wow :)
This was much very interesting info at once and I gonna try to read it well and try to understand where to start, this weekend hopefully if my bad neck gets better so I can start rewiring and se if we can get this game back to life! I will post before and after picture when we are done with the restoration 🤗
I don’t see any pay out meter for the hopper, I have one for coin inn and one that says cash box, one in the top right corner behind the reel mechanism that maybe is for the bonus game or something.. i guess i start with the rewiring for the hopper and then the pay out counter zero switch..
Yes I think can reed the wire codes ok and as I understood several wires should move one step to the right. Like 13 14 must be moved one pin to the right and 15 from pin 3 to pin 4 and so on but not all of them since there are some of the wires don’t match..
I really appreciate your help thank you sir!
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 04, 2021, 09:19:10 PM
when you disconnect wires 14-3 and 75 from the hopper plug, tie those two wires together and don't reattach to the plug.
you need them connected for the switches detecting coins ejected to step up the payout counter.
the rest of the payout relay switches are ok, and you can do this:
1] you don't need wire 91-2 on the top of the tall stack, so take it off that blade and use it on a new NO switch on the payout relay. It'll be wire 91 on the 903, so attach the plug end to pin 25. The other blade of the new switch goes to wire 30, which is already on another payout relay switch.
2] add another NO switch to the payout relay (or use the bottom switch on the short stack if it's not being used). One blade is wire 10-2 on plug pin 1, other blade is wire 38-2 on plug pin 9. You don't have either of those wires, so you'll have to add them to the machine
3] you need a closed-at-zero switch on the payout counter. Probably easiest to add a switch to the reset pawl stack. One blade is wire 36-2 to pin 8 and other blade is wire 61-1 to pin 19. You'll need to add those two wires to the machine.
4] if you have space on the payout relay, you can add a NC switch. Remove wire 48-1 from the reset pawl switch and connect it to one blade, then connect a new wire from the reset pawl switch to the other blade. i.e. you are inserting the NC switch into wire 48-1. All it does is not turn on the winner paid light until payout is over, so it's optional.
that should do it. All that's left is seeing if there's a problem with the safety timeout, and that's easily fixed if there is by eliminating the delay relay.
btw, if the bottom switch on the short stack is not used, it is possible to make the switch above it available by taking off wire 15-2 and connecting it to wire 98 on the switch in the stack next to it. Remove the brown wire jumper to the adjacent switch and you'll have the two NO switches you need without adding more switches. If you have the switch parts and longer screws tho, I'd leave it and add a switch to avoid tying wires of different colors together.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 06, 2021, 12:12:07 PM
I have starter to re wiring the beau plug and my first question is PIN number 3
On the 809b it says 15 on the wire and I wonder why you wrote 45 ? I trust you but I wanna be sure before I continue :)
Where do wire 14 from the 809b goes if 45 goes to pin 3 ?
This is what I have done so far.. (Picture)
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 06, 2021, 12:19:14 PM
Here you can see how I work and do it step by step with a new beau plug..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 06, 2021, 04:13:30 PM
wire 45 on the 809 hopper is doing what wire 14 on the 903 does. To be nice and not have a color mismatch between plug and socket, you can:
- attached 14-3 to pin 3 like you have it - disconnect wire 45 from the payout relay switch - disconnect the other end of 14-3 from the payout counter step-up coil and attach it where wire 45 was - attach the plug end of wire 75 to the payout counter step-up coil where you just removed 14-3. The other end of wire 75 is on the hopper coin eject switches which is what you want.
you may need to pull some of the wire out of the harness to make it reach where you need.
wire 45 is then not connected to anything so it's abandoned.
I didn't list all the 809 plug wires. These wires on the 809 won't be attached to the plug: - 45 - 53-2 - 75 - 58-1
you do actually need a 36-2 and 38-2 wire, so you can use the two that are currently on the 809 plug and attach them to pins 8 and 9 ... however, you need to disconnect the other ends and connect them to a new switches. Right now, those two wires connect to one of the payout counter step-up arm switches. You don't need that switch on the 903.
you also need a 91 wire on a new payout relay switch, so attach 91-2 to pin 28 AND disconnect the other end from the current payout relay switch to a new NO payout relay switch.
in case it's not clear, you need to attach the wires listed in the 809-B "wire id" column to the pins listed in the pin # column. The "wire id" column under the 903-A heading is the socket in the cabinet.
if you can find a 10 and 61 wire from a parts game or someplace, you can make all the wiring match the plug and socket. If you can't, I'd probably try and use a wire color that doesn't exist in a bally game so it's obvious it's added. I guess a red wire is easy to find elsewhere tho.
you could use wire 45, 53-2, or 58-1 and write on the hopper what 903 wire the 809 wire is substituting for. Bally would occasionally run out of the correct wire color and use something else. They attached a paper tag with the substitution info onto the wiring harness.
below is the chart with all the above updated.
make sense?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 06, 2021, 06:44:50 PM
Ok I think I have re wired most of the wires to a new beau plug except the one on the picture below…
My 809b hopper don’t have the 93.1 wire
I will try to continue tomorrow with the
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 06, 2021, 06:46:31 PM
Tomorrow I will try to continue with the rest of the wiring and switches..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 07, 2021, 08:32:19 AM
looks like the original plan. Note I changed the wire 75 / 14-3 in the last post I did, but you can do it either way.
does your hopper have the plastic ball on the arm inside the bowl? If yes, what wire colors are on the switch that arm closes? That's where wire 93-1 should go. Other blade should be wire 30
there is a 93 wire visible in your pic in post 21
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 07, 2021, 11:32:11 AM
Yes I did like you said in the first post (See Picture) the red wire is actually 15 but the green color is almost gone, it can be seen in the other end but not on the picture..
I haven’t start with the wires to the pay out unit yet and I’m still trying to understand the rest of the wires that I haven’t removed from the old beau plug..
Any suggestion what I should do first and in what order ?
Your the best and I really appreciate your help 🙏☺️
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: DavidLee on August 07, 2021, 02:03:07 PM
This is mildly pertaining to what you’re doing. I’ve found it easier to solder the center of the 3 long rows first or at least 2 or 3 joints out, prior to soldering the outside joints. But in your case, directivity might be dictated by the circuit being move at the time.
Also there’s a tool for removing pins and sockets, this might be considered.
What you’re doing takes a lot of concentration. I’m sure with Wolftalk’s help everything will work out fine.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 07, 2021, 02:25:54 PM
Yes it really takes time and concentration and since I’ve never done this before I must take it easy step by step and be sure I do it correctly and at the same time learn how the Bally slot machine works.
Thanks for your tips I really appreciate it :)
Here’s a picture of the hopper and the plastic ball that’s not connected but I had one extra that I would like to install.. it's wire 93 is that the same as 93-1 and the other 30.. I started with connect the 93-1 from the plastic ball thing to pin 26 on the beau plug, now I’m not sure about the wire 30, where to connect it.. ?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 08, 2021, 10:04:27 AM
93 is the color code = grey/yellow.
93-1 would be the second time they used a wire of that color in the machine. While the wires identical, they are used in different circuits so they aren't the same.
anyway, connect the 93 wire from your hopper level switch to plug pin 26 and the yellow wire to plug pin 10 7 with the other yellow wire. The solid yellow wires are always wire 30 - there's no 30-x wires, so they are all the same wire everywhere in the machine.
wrt what to do next, I'd do the stuff in post 29 to make the game match a 903 schematic better
you'll need to unsolder wire 45 from pin 3, cut/unsolder 14-3 from 75 then proceed with post 29.
if post 29 doesn't make sense, yell and I'll rewrite it in a more step-by-step without any explanations. You'll need 2 available normally open switches on the payout relay and one closed-at-zero switch on the payout counter to connect the remaining wires that will be used. Some of the wires left on the 809 plug won't be used.
ideally add those switches and take a picture so we can double -check. There may be an unused NO switch on your payout relay already ... couldn't tell from the picture angle.
if you have a solid red wire and a brown/red wire from a parts game or elsewhere, you need those also ... otherwise you can use a couple of the 809 wires, but they'll be the wrong color.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 08, 2021, 12:22:38 PM
Before I go any further are you sure not 30 from the hopper level switch goes to pin 7 and not pin 10 as you wrote, did I misunderstood something before since on my beau plug 30 goes to pin 7..?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 09, 2021, 07:59:44 AM
oops, sorry. Fixed that. "10" was the row number in the spreadsheet, which is plug pin 7.
if you switch to the post 29 method and can source a red wire and a brown/red wire, the wire colors will all match between plug and socket and you won't have any different color wires connected together.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 09, 2021, 10:19:23 AM
That was good news, now it’s connected to plug pin 7 thank you!🤗
I have a lot of extra wires so I only use the right wire color codes on this project.
Now I think I only have 3 or 4 loose wires left as you can see on the picture..
Red cross is 38 ( I’m not sure if it should be connected to pin 9 so the two 38 meet )
I also added the three last wires from the plug too blue cross 10 36 38
I don’t think there is any more wires to connect and as you wrote wire 45 53-2 75 58-1 is not connected to the beau plug and not in use..
Wire 91 is added on pin 28 but yet not adjusted or moved on the pay out relay switch
As you probably understand Im not quite sure or familiar how to install the NO and NC blades and the last wires so do you have example like pictures that shows since I’m afraid that Im doing it wrong so I rather do the progress slowly and right.
Thank you 🙏
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 09, 2021, 11:13:17 AM
Sorry I just saw that I missed the 61 so that’s also connected to plug pin 19 now but loos in the other end so far..
Don’t miss the post before this :)
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 10, 2021, 10:47:10 AM
okay, let's deal with a problem first. -----------------------------------------
I assume the wires on the step-up coil are 14 and 70.
do this:
1] disconnect 45 (orange arrow, second pic below) from payout relay switch. You can pull wire 45 out of the machine. 2] disconnect 14 (pink arrow, first pic) from the coil and connect it where 45 was on the payout relay.
3] attach wire 75 to the coil where 14 was. Wire 75 used to be on the plug, then you connected it to wire 14 in the initial rewire, and now it's loose again per post 29 rewire. 4] disconnect wire 91-2 from payout relay (pink arrow, second pic). Leave it loose, you need it later
questions ----------- 1] you had a 36-1 wire on pin 7 of the original plug. Where was it going? The 809-B schem has the same wire but it doesn't connect to anything in the hopper. Did it just end unattached near the payout relay?
2] did you add a new 36-1 wire, or is that the original one?
3] is the bottom switch on payout relay short stack unused (blue arrow, second pic)
optional extra cleanup step: -------------------------------
1] disconnect 38 and 58-1 from the step-up arm switch blades (green arrows, first pic) and pull those two wires out of the game. You don't need the 58-1 wire, and you added a new 38 wire, so the original one isn't useful anymore.
end result ----------- once you get this far, you could install the hopper and the game should pay. You should have the following loose wires which you need: - 10-2 - 36-2 - 38-2 - 61-1 - 91-2
you also have wire 53-1, which you don't need but if if you wanted to add a "total out" meter in the future then the meter would connect to wires 53-1 and 70
next steps ------------
for the next step, got a spare relay like a payout relay? If so, remove the two screws from either switch stack on it and if you are lucky the switches will be separate pieces stacked together.
take before/after removing screws pics of what you have and next post will deal with adding switches to the payout relay and the reset pawl switch stacks. Also compare your spare switch blades to the reset pawl blades to see if they are the same length.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 10, 2021, 11:41:10 AM
Work in progress and I will try to do as you wrote, I’m little confused since we go back and forth but I guess we do that for a reason 🙈😇
I also added the wire 63 for the door switch to meters but I deal with that later I guess (There is a door switch inside the door) I just wanted to be done with all the wires to the beau plug so I could install it so the plug became more steady. I even tried the hopper in the machine and it didn’t blow any fuses but it emptied the hopper so I guess that’s kind of good, hehe
I read your stuff up and down several times before I understand it and I must say I have respect for your knowledge!
The coin lockout armature didn’t work but I guess that’s a part of the progress..
Thank you for the daily update sir 🙏
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 10, 2021, 01:32:14 PM
I added wire 36 and 38 on to pin 8 and 9 and those are the only one I think..
Yes the only loose wires now is
10 36 38 61 91
Yes I changed the short payout relay stack to a large similar as the other one so now I got plenty of space and the NO switch in the bottom is free..
Let me know if you need any specific picture or something :)
:thank_you:
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 10, 2021, 02:39:58 PM
got a pic of your new payout relay with the switches mounted? If you have 3 available NO switches (call them A,B,C below), you can make it work like the 903-A schem shows.
1] connect 10-2 and 38-2 to switch A 2] disconnect 48-1 from the reset pawl switch and connect it to switch B, find a 52-6 wire in your parts and connect it between switch B and the reset pawl switch where 48-1 was 3] wire 30 is already on a payout relay switch. Either use a bare wire and connect it to switch C, or a piece of yellow wire. Connect 91-2 to the other blade of switch C
did you add another switch to the reset pawl stack that is closed when the pawl stack is lifted (when the reset coil plunger pulled in and the step-up coil hasn't powered yet)?
one way to do it is like the switch that is on your pawl now, but take the stack apart and swap the long and short blade so the long blade pushes up and closes the switch when the stack is lifted.
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if the hopper turned on when you don't have a winner, that would be a problem. See if the payout relay is powering.
the coin lockout coil doesn't go thru the hopper. Jumper the 74-1 wire on the coin switch to the 31-1 wire on the lockout coil to test if the coil/armature works. If you can't access 31-1 easily on the coil, it'll be on the plug connections to the door.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 10, 2021, 03:12:11 PM
As you can see I have started to connect the 10 wire on the bottom NO switch and will continue tomorrow since it’s midnight here now.
It’s two free NO switches and the one on the top has both I guess and that one is also free..
I tried the hopper and it paid out correctly twice 2 coins as it should and 5 coins when it should, but suddenly it paid out 9 coins on orange bell bell
It’s probably some adjustments and I will connect the last wires tomorrow..
The hold mechanism also didn’t work but that’s maybe because of the wires that’s not connected or?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 10, 2021, 03:30:46 PM
payout relay switches look good. I'd get the resistor out from between the switch blades ... use a wire if you have to, but it looks like you should be able to route the resistor through the wiring or I think you can just swap the stacks on the mounting bar so the resistor doesn't need to reach across a stack.
you need the reset pawl switch for the draw feature to work. Do you know what to do with that one? Reset pawl stack in circled in green on post 24 ... different game in that pic, but you have single switch on your payout counter in the same location. You need two switches there, but the new one needs to be closed when the stack is lifted.
can you post pictures of the top glass and reel glass showing the pay tables. Can kinda see it in post 6, but can't really read it.
paying 9 instead of 10 would be a problem on the payout counter. Can deal with that once you're done wiring.
sanity check on the payout counter is to reset and manually step it up. The wiper fingers should step off the end of the trace on the step = the number on the trace. e.g. at step 9, wipers should be on the 10 trace end. At step 10, they should be off the 10 trace. Verify the trace ends aren't burned/pitted.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 10, 2021, 05:20:39 PM
I checked and the resistor doesn’t touch the blades even when they move but change the stacks sounds like smart thing to do!
I’m not familiar with the reset pawl but I think I understand and I will try to make one tomorrow, what wires do I use?
Yes I will also check the payout issue, the wipers fingers trace and see if I can find the problem…
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 10, 2021, 05:46:18 PM
if you get bored, please email highest possible resolution pics of the game to slotpics@cdyn.com and I'll add them to the stuff on https://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/ ... eventually there will be a real web site for the info.
the closed-at-zero reset pawl switch gets wires 36-2 and 61-1
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 11, 2021, 07:01:16 AM
I think I installed it right didn’t I?
Yes I will send you all the pictures you want just let me know which one :)
I still have some payout issues and the hold thing doesn’t work
I tried the bench test thing and the coin 1 5 works but 10 was 9..
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 11, 2021, 09:59:54 PM
is the payout counter reset in your picture?
I'd guess not since the stack should be lifted and change the switch state when the unit is reset.
not sure what you mean by bench test thing ... you mean you manually stepped up the payout counter 9 times and the wipers were off the end of the 10 trace? If yes, look at the ratchet side while stepping and see if the pawls grabbed an extra tooth while you were stepping. You can mark the initial tooth the step-up pawl pushes on the first step and count 9 more teeth and mark that. That's where the pawl should be on the 10th step.
if you're grabbing two teeth on the first step, you can adjust the zero stop to change that. However, if you are grabbing two teeth on the first step, you should be stepping off the end of every trace less than 100 one step too early.
highest possible resolution pictures of both sides of the payout counter would be good ... including wiring around the edges. Are you posting the highest resolution your camera can take, or are you taking lower resolution/downsizing since this forum has size limits that are too low for modern devices?
generally I'm looking for pictures of: - the entire front of the game - inside of coin door - inside cabinet with everything installed - as many internal pictures as you have patience for
the usual issue is someone asks "where is the X relay" ... if there's enough pictures from angles at high enough res, people can zoom in and read labels or see wire colors. e.g. a close up of a stepper unit showing the wipers and rivets isn't very useful, but a picture of the entire unit from back far enough to see where it is in the game and the wire colors attached to the edges is very useful.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 12, 2021, 11:45:24 AM
First of all I remade and installed a new contact plate assembly since It got damaged when I start testing it (see picture in post 1) and I also changed the ratchet and shaft I think it’s called, the 100 tooth wheel was broken and stopped after step 50..
Now I did a new bench test ( from how to bench test your payboard) and now it’s counting right 2 5 10 14 18
When I play and win one two or three cherry it underpay by one coin every time and it looks like wheel three has some issues since I win with the wrong combination..
Suddenly yesterday almost everything worked for a while, even the bonus game and it also paid out 20 when I got a horse I center line..
The picture is of the new payout unit…
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 12, 2021, 06:53:28 PM
your reset pawl switches circled in red below aren't adjusted right.
when the payout counter is reset, the reset pawl (green arrow) is held up off the ratchet teeth.
in the pic, that pushes the switch stack blades to the left, so the left switch should be closed and the right switch open.
when the payout counter has stepped at least once, the reset pawl sits on the ratchet teeth and the switches should be like in your post 51 picture.
it's always good to look and see if the operation makes sense. Right now the switches don't change state when the moving blades change position, so that's a big hint something is wrong :-)
fixing those switches should take care of the winner paid light and draw function.
the one difference between you stepping up the payout counter manually and the machine doing it is the machine does it faster and harder, so if the first step is really close to grabbing two ratchet teeth instead of one, the game is more likely to do it.
the fix is adjust the zero stop bumper. That moves the reset position of the ratchet a little and lets you alter how the ratchet teeth are grabbed on the first step.
you have the older eccentric style bumper (green arrow second pic). Loosen the bolt and turn the bumper so the wipers shift a little more clockwise at reset. Snug down he bolt and verify it's still stepping off the traces at the correct steps.
when happy with that, check the zero stop switch (yellow arrow). It's supposed be open when the payout counter is reset, closed at step 1+. However, you can be a little sloppy with the adjust as long as it's open at reset and definitely closed at step 2 (the minimum payout assuming the game isn't underpaying). All the switch does is disconnect the payout counter reset coil when the payout counter is already reset to prevent firing the coil when it's not needed.
if davidlee or others are still following this topic, they may have better suggestions on setting the zero stop position. I just trial and error and look at where the wipers are on the contact plate at reset.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 13, 2021, 03:00:35 PM
I’m not sure if I installed the reset pawl switches wrong or if I have to make a adjustment several places, I also looked at one of my other machines and they look the same so I still not quite get it..
What’s the roller switch on the ratchet for and I’m not sure it’s in the right position?
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: wolftalk on August 13, 2021, 06:28:56 PM
the reset pawl switches look ok now assuming the unit is reset.
the reset pawl switches are bent a lot more than usual relay switches, and you sometimes need to bend the long blades to make more downward pressure on closed at step 1+ switch. Only the long blade tension is providing the contact force.
your step-up arm switches are wrong tho. Sorry I didn't notice that before. The peg goes between the blades like in the pic below (red arrow).
the microswitch you circled in blue is the "ratchet cam switch". When the roller on it goes in a notch, the safety motor power is turned off and the safety motor resets. The roller is not it a notch when the payout counter is reset, so yours is ok.
the purpose of the circuit is to detect if the payout counter is not stepping and shut the machine down before the hopper is dumped out to the very happy player.
your 809 hopper is electrically stepped so there's more things that can go wrong ... so they added the extra circuits to try and detect a problem with payout counter stepping.
the 903-A doesn't have that circuit because the payout counter was mechanically stepped. There's still a safety motor that will shut down the game, but it doesn't reset during payout on a 903-A. I assume the 903-D was the same.
your safety motor will reset during payout because wire 40 going to the safety motor is being controlled like an 809. It should work fine and will shut down the game a lot faster if there's a payout counter stepping issue.
Title: Re: Bally mustang 903-D BM-55 issues with the hopper
Post by: SPN on August 22, 2021, 05:19:06 AM
With very good help from Wolftalk the best! I could never done this without your knowledge and endless good help and tons of patience thru the steps transfer the 861 hopper to fit my 903d Bally mustang and now it’s working perfect and even looks almost new!
I'm restoring an old 903d Bally mustang who have been stored away for more than 30 years and was not in very bad condition and was only good as parts. but to my surprise all the glass was I perfect condition without any scratch or anything, so after taking the whole machine apart I started to rebuild it after cleaning and upgrade several parts it’s finally back in working condition and it looks pretty good if you ask me and thanks to you guys here on NLG the game can serve me and all my guests for many years and one less game end up as parts!