New Life Games LLC
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

News:

  Welcome to your new NLG Forums...   
"We are now Open to the public" 
 

 


NLG Site Navigation Menu


Archives of old posts can be found at...... Newlifegames.net/nlg/

Author Topic: Slot Myths...?  (Read 1949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Railroader Travis

  • NLG Member 101 to 250 Posts
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
  • Reputation Power: 8
  • Railroader Travis New User has no influence.
  • Gender: Male
  • Ridin' the Rails, Gamblin', Drinkin' Bourbon
Slot Myths...?
« on: September 01, 2016, 09:33:28 PM »
So as I have done my research and realized that S2000 slots especially use a RNG to determine if you win or lose a spin.  Of course, each RNG may represent a big prize or a small prize, so if it is truly random, as I've studied... then why on earth do these machines and it seems ALL machines go through "Loose" and "Tight" play.   In any casino I've played at, a machine will continuously pay me, back to back, then stop when it's finished.  Even my slot here at home, I won 2-3 jackpots in 1 hour and many medium prizes, and now for 3 days hasn't hit anything more then a $20-$30 win.  So is it truly RANDOM????
Slots, Poker, Whiskey, Trains.... Those are the only things I can't do without. Well, of course my family, too.

Offline rickhunter

  • Sr NLG Member
  • NLG Member 501 TO 10000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 3241
  • Reputation Power: 206
  • rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!
  • Gender: Male
  • I Void Warranties.
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 10:19:58 PM »
There are debates as to whether or not a computer RNG is truly random in the pure statistical sense (it is not), but it's close enough.  What you experience is volatility and all modern machines have ever increasing volatility, that is periods of long droughts with the ocassional "Big Hit."  It really is pure co-incidence but it proves a point.  My mother goes to local casinos twice a month for an average of 6 hours every time she goes.  I've kept statistics (about as close as I could) and she has basically come out ahead about 10% of the time.  2 weeks ago she came out $450 up, this week she lost the $450 she won 2 weeks ago plus another $150.  What happened 2 weeks ago, is that she got lucky and had a pair of machines hit for $250 a pop, but the rest of the day, it was basically a wash.  This week, no luck hitting a big one.

The way the S2000's work is the minute you hit the spin button, the machine will pick 3 numbers (on a 3 reel machine).  Each number will represent a virtual stop for each of the 3 reels.  Whatever combination the 3 reels stop at, the machine will evaluate the result and pay (or not) accordingly.  The number of stops for each reel (which only has 22 physical stops, 11 symbols plus 11 blanks) can vary anywhere between 32 and I've seen up to 512 stops.  The paytable date on the chip (SB chip on the S2000's) contains a virtual stop table, that maps this number to a physical stop on the reel.   Each stop on the reel is weighted differently.  For example, let's assumbe the the "0" is a blank and that the "1" is Double Diamond.

The physical stop looks like this, blank, Double Diamond, Blank.
0 1 0

The virtual stop table might look like this:
0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0

This means that the blanks have a weight of 5 stops on each side of the double diamond symbol.  This is why you see a lot of those "near misses" on the slots, since the odds of having the reel stop at the symbol is 1/5 less likely as it is to stop at a blank.  The rest of the symbols might be weighted differently.  Here's an actual virtual stop listing for a 72 stop game (Double Diamond) reel #1, all 3 reels typically have different stop tables.

00 00 01 02 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 04 04 04 04 05 06 06 06 06 06 06 07 08 09 09 10 11 11 12 12 13 14 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 16 16 16 17 18 18 18 18 18 19 19 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 21 21

The 00 and even numbers are blanks, the odds are symbols.  In this particular case the 01 is "7" the 03 is "Bar" and the 05 is "Double Diamond"  The strip is below so you can see how the mapping goes (First symbol is a blank, then a Red 7, which is covered by the NLG logo, and so on).  Notice the 7's and the Double Diamonds only have a weight of 1 for each physical stop, with the single bar symbol enjoying quite a bit of stops.

It really is just pure luck, no method.  The machine does not "know" when it's hot or cold, it just does whatever the RNG says the combination is.  In this case each number chosen ends up a number between 0 and 71, corresponding to the stop as detailed on the stop table.  You do this for all 3 reels and you get your game result.
If you find the site helpful, consider becoming a contributing member.  It pays for costs and keeps this site alive.

Offline sirius7

  • NLG Member 101 to 250 Posts
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Reputation Power: 12
  • sirius7 New User has no influence.
  • NLG
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 10:28:19 PM »
You know how Roulette tables usually have a display showing the last several wheel spin results?  Ask yourself the same question, "Why do you so often see a string of Red, or a string of Black?  If the odds are close to 50% of it being one color, why does the same color come up so often in a row?"  The wheel is truly random, no electronics at play.


The human brain was designed to see patterns, even when patterns don't exist, so the anomalies stick out to us like a sore thumb.  It's important to remember that the pay tables on these machines is based on long-term results, not short term results.  In the short term you will often see what appears to deviate from what you would expect (like a string of reds on the roulette wheel).  Over a long-term, thousands or hundreds of thousands of spins, you will see the results very close to the expected pay table.  If you just look at just a short period of time you'll see all kinds of wild & crazy stuff.


This is a GOOD thing, because if slot machines behaved like you'd expect in the short-term nobody would ever play them.  You would sit down, and very slowly but steadily lose your money with pretty much every spin, or go for ages and never winning anything until a big jackpot on a highly volatile machine.  It would be very discouraging & boring.  It's those wild short-term unpredictable oddities that make them fun to play!  Play long enough though and everybody loses -- not "maybe loses" in the long term, but guaranteed to lose.

Offline Railroader Travis

  • NLG Member 101 to 250 Posts
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
  • Reputation Power: 8
  • Railroader Travis New User has no influence.
  • Gender: Male
  • Ridin' the Rails, Gamblin', Drinkin' Bourbon
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2016, 12:08:02 AM »
There are debates as to whether or not a computer RNG is truly random in the pure statistical sense (it is not), but it's close enough.  What you experience is volatility and all modern machines have ever increasing volatility, that is periods of long droughts with the ocassional "Big Hit."  It really is pure co-incidence but it proves a point.  My mother goes to local casinos twice a month for an average of 6 hours every time she goes.  I've kept statistics (about as close as I could) and she has basically come out ahead about 10% of the time.  2 weeks ago she came out $450 up, this week she lost the $450 she won 2 weeks ago plus another $150.  What happened 2 weeks ago, is that she got lucky and had a pair of machines hit for $250 a pop, but the rest of the day, it was basically a wash.  This week, no luck hitting a big one.

The way the S2000's work is the minute you hit the spin button, the machine will pick 3 numbers (on a 3 reel machine).  Each number will represent a virtual stop for each of the 3 reels.  Whatever combination the 3 reels stop at, the machine will evaluate the result and pay (or not) accordingly.  The number of stops for each reel (which only has 22 physical stops, 11 symbols plus 11 blanks) can vary anywhere between 32 and I've seen up to 512 stops.  The paytable date on the chip (SB chip on the S2000's) contains a virtual stop table, that maps this number to a physical stop on the reel.   Each stop on the reel is weighted differently.  For example, let's assumbe the the "0" is a blank and that the "1" is Double Diamond.

The physical stop looks like this, blank, Double Diamond, Blank.
0 1 0

The virtual stop table might look like this:
0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0

This means that the blanks have a weight of 5 stops on each side of the double diamond symbol.  This is why you see a lot of those "near misses" on the slots, since the odds of having the reel stop at the symbol is 1/5 less likely as it is to stop at a blank.  The rest of the symbols might be weighted differently.  Here's an actual virtual stop listing for a 72 stop game (Double Diamond) reel #1, all 3 reels typically have different stop tables.

00 00 01 02 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 04 04 04 04 05 06 06 06 06 06 06 07 08 09 09 10 11 11 12 12 13 14 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 16 16 16 17 18 18 18 18 18 19 19 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 21 21

The 00 and even numbers are blanks, the odds are symbols.  In this particular case the 01 is "7" the 03 is "Bar" and the 05 is "Double Diamond"  The strip is below so you can see how the mapping goes (First symbol is a blank, then a Red 7, which is covered by the NLG logo, and so on).  Notice the 7's and the Double Diamonds only have a weight of 1 for each physical stop, with the single bar symbol enjoying quite a bit of stops.

It really is just pure luck, no method.  The machine does not "know" when it's hot or cold, it just does whatever the RNG says the combination is.  In this case each number chosen ends up a number between 0 and 71, corresponding to the stop as detailed on the stop table.  You do this for all 3 reels and you get your game result.





 :nerd: :applause:  That is how I feel.  Hooray! I UNDERSTAND this! And it feels so good that I do now. I have been scratching my head to this for days trying to figure out how it all worked.  I used to be a gambling addict, and now that I own my own machine, know how it all works exactly, you won't see me spinning for real money as much as I used to. It's fun sometimes, but with a limit.   In reference to "Volatility"; please elaborate what you mean by how a machine or newer machines are designed to be more volatile. Does this mean they're giving them more of a computerized control of winning?


So what would give IGT the reason to create a 512 stop game, versus a 72 stop?  I discovered something quite neat. You can literally play the slots right here on your PC using some basic math, and I created an example below.


Using the random number generator, listed here:  http://andrew.hedges.name/experiments/random/


Reel 1:  22  =  Stop  06
Reel 2:  67  =  Stop  20
Reel 3:  38  =  Stop  15


I am pretty sure that wasn't a winning combination, but I'd love to find a listen of what each number actually represents for these virtual reel stops.   With 512 stops, will they STILL only have just 1 number out of 512 which is the biggest paying symbol, or will they add multiple ones, just far less than your lower paying symbols and blanks?


As far as RNG goes, I understand it is impossible for a computer to generate a random number. It's also important for our brain to generate a random number. If someone comes up to you and says pick a random number 0-100, most will probably say 0, 10, 50, 55, 75, 99, 100,   simply because those are numbers we remember or are most "likely to pick" based on our experience with them.    I'd almost want to think computers are the same way, however, they aren't living and do not have judgement, so how the hell is it truly picking a random number? There has to be an algorithm that is telling it which numbers to generate...   I did remember reading an article that a very smart mathematician was able to tell by the reel stop patterns when a jackpot was going to hit, based on the algorithm he discovered.  Pretty amazing crap, if you ask me.  I still find it odd that it's only coincidental that generally speaking when a machine hits it will continue to hit, and then stop. It must be phenomena.


This was a very interesting topic I started, and I'm proud of it!
Slots, Poker, Whiskey, Trains.... Those are the only things I can't do without. Well, of course my family, too.

Offline Railroader Travis

  • NLG Member 101 to 250 Posts
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
  • Reputation Power: 8
  • Railroader Travis New User has no influence.
  • Gender: Male
  • Ridin' the Rails, Gamblin', Drinkin' Bourbon
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2016, 12:20:40 AM »
One other question, if the SS chip on an S+ game changes the payback percentage for the exact same game and paytable, and being that the paytable determines the payback percentage, how exactly does that work? ???    It would also be ideal for someone to explain all the stuff that is listed when you click a game name in the game bible, like Hit Frequency, Hits/Cycle, all of that non-sense.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 12:52:43 AM by rails4ever »
Slots, Poker, Whiskey, Trains.... Those are the only things I can't do without. Well, of course my family, too.

Offline sirius7

  • NLG Member 101 to 250 Posts
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Reputation Power: 12
  • sirius7 New User has no influence.
  • NLG
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2016, 01:41:22 AM »
In reference to "Volatility"; please elaborate what you mean by how a machine or newer machines are designed to be more volatile. Does this mean they're giving them more of a computerized control of winning?


A volatile game means that it offers smaller pays less often in favor of larger (but less often) jackpots.  A less volatile game will have more frequent pays, but for lower amounts.  Game developers have found the current player trend is preference for more volatile games so that's what they've been focusing on.  Volatile games are inherently more risky, especially if you have a small bankroll because you're more likely to run out of money before you hit the big jackpot.

Offline coolwavepic

  • Sr NLG Member
  • NLG Member 501 TO 10000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 1062
  • Reputation Power: 71
  • coolwavepic Has a powerful will.coolwavepic Has a powerful will.coolwavepic Has a powerful will.coolwavepic Has a powerful will.coolwavepic Has a powerful will.coolwavepic Has a powerful will.coolwavepic Has a powerful will.
  • Gender: Male
  • NLG
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2016, 01:56:04 AM »
Great videos on how slots work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur53m9zQ5sY
-------
Charles

Offline rickhunter

  • Sr NLG Member
  • NLG Member 501 TO 10000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 3241
  • Reputation Power: 206
  • rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!
  • Gender: Male
  • I Void Warranties.
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2016, 07:19:15 AM »
The SS reel chips change percentages by making slight changes to the virtual reel stop table.  Say instead of the the single bar in the example above having 10 stops for the first physical stop, they may reduce that number to 9 stops and add another blank stop. Just making that one change will make an impact on the payback percentage.

The RNG's on computers are based on the pc's timer function.  Since this number is sequential in nature, the RNG routine applies a series of mathematical operations thus arriving at a "randomn" number.  The secret sauce is different for every manufacturer, but it basically entails taking more than one number from the timer (a seed) and performing various math operands to the numbers, since multiple numbers out of sequence are used, the numbers will appear to be random in nature.  Newer methods include noise from atmospheric sensors (This is about as random as you can get) and CPU time Jitters (the theory behind this is that various peripherals that the cpu has to deal with, introduce delays  based on the availability of the data stream. i.e. a hard drive does not deliver the data at the exact time interval every time).
 
The more stops you have, the bigger the jackpot you can provide, because the time period in order to hit the million dollar progressives are so long due to odds, that the machine(s) rack up dough over time.  Typically the top symbols usually have a single stop on these Wide Area Progressives.  Progressives are a player contributed jackpot.  The way it works, is that every time you wager, a small percentage of that wager is added to the progressive.  In the long run, a casino doesn't really "loose" money on progressives, since the accumulation over the top award, is all player driven.  That's why in vegas, casinos are not allowed to remove a machine on the floor that has a progressive without jurisdictional overwatch that the progressive be moved to another machine if the casino wants to retire it.  It is why the MGM Grand in vegas had a really old S+ with a multi-million dollar jackpot that became kind of like a attraction of it's own as it hadn't paid the progressive in over 20 years, until somebody hit it I think last year.

http://lasvegassun.com/vegasdeluxe/2014/feb/19/cult-2345-million-lion-slot-machine-payoff-mgm-gra/
If you find the site helpful, consider becoming a contributing member.  It pays for costs and keeps this site alive.

Offline Railroader Travis

  • NLG Member 101 to 250 Posts
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
  • Reputation Power: 8
  • Railroader Travis New User has no influence.
  • Gender: Male
  • Ridin' the Rails, Gamblin', Drinkin' Bourbon
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2016, 11:48:59 AM »
The SS reel chips change percentages by making slight changes to the virtual reel stop table.  Say instead of the the single bar in the example above having 10 stops for the first physical stop, they may reduce that number to 9 stops and add another blank stop. Just making that one change will make an impact on the payback percentage.

The RNG's on computers are based on the pc's timer function.  Since this number is sequential in nature, the RNG routine applies a series of mathematical operations thus arriving at a "randomn" number.  The secret sauce is different for every manufacturer, but it basically entails taking more than one number from the timer (a seed) and performing various math operands to the numbers, since multiple numbers out of sequence are used, the numbers will appear to be random in nature.  Newer methods include noise from atmospheric sensors (This is about as random as you can get) and CPU time Jitters (the theory behind this is that various peripherals that the cpu has to deal with, introduce delays  based on the availability of the data stream. i.e. a hard drive does not deliver the data at the exact time interval every time).
 
The more stops you have, the bigger the jackpot you can provide, because the time period in order to hit the million dollar progressives are so long due to odds, that the machine(s) rack up dough over time.  Typically the top symbols usually have a single stop on these Wide Area Progressives.  Progressives are a player contributed jackpot.  The way it works, is that every time you wager, a small percentage of that wager is added to the progressive.  In the long run, a casino doesn't really "loose" money on progressives, since the accumulation over the top award, is all player driven.  That's why in vegas, casinos are not allowed to remove a machine on the floor that has a progressive without jurisdictional overwatch that the progressive be moved to another machine if the casino wants to retire it.  It is why the MGM Grand in vegas had a really old S+ with a multi-million dollar jackpot that became kind of like a attraction of it's own as it hadn't paid the progressive in over 20 years, until somebody hit it I think last year.

http://lasvegassun.com/vegasdeluxe/2014/feb/19/cult-2345-million-lion-slot-machine-payoff-mgm-gra/



Very interesting.  So machines with progressives only have 1 jackpot symbol, not 2?  How do they make it so the progressive is less likely to hit?
Slots, Poker, Whiskey, Trains.... Those are the only things I can't do without. Well, of course my family, too.

Offline rickhunter

  • Sr NLG Member
  • NLG Member 501 TO 10000 Posts
  • *
  • Posts: 3241
  • Reputation Power: 206
  • rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!rickhunter Is an-NLG GOD!
  • Gender: Male
  • I Void Warranties.
Re: Slot Myths...?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2016, 02:43:38 PM »
It's less likely to hit because there's only 1 reel stop per reel with the progressive winner and there's 512 stops.
If you find the site helpful, consider becoming a contributing member.  It pays for costs and keeps this site alive.

 

Cell Phone and Pad Mode

imode wap wap2

NLG Archives

Archives @ newlifegames.net Wayback Machine

Contact Us

NLG Shop 928 754-4147 Email Us 1159 Highway 95 Bullhead City AZ 86429
If you find this site helpful, please consider becoming a Contributing NLG Member with a monthly subscription.


To help cover the cost of Pizza, Coffee, Aspirin, Hosting and Bandwidth.  
Contributing Members Get: Unlimited personal messages: Can save topics and replies as drafts:
Can Post to the Classified ads: Unlimited Access to the Downloads: and This Minty Badge.



**Subscription Link** **Subscription Link**



           
If you would rather remain anonymous  Thank You  or just want to help Support the site, please use the "make a donation" button.




From your entire NLG staff, Thank you for supporting NLG.





Newlifegames.com     Newlifegames.net     Newlifegames.org

Newlifegame.com     Newlifegame.net     Newlifegame.org    Newlifegames.us

   New Life Games     NewLifeGames  NLG

 We Bring new Life to old Games    1-888-NLG-SLOTS

Are all Copyright and Trademarks of New Life Games LLC 1992 - 2017


FAIR USE NOTICE:



This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner.
We make such material available in an effort to advance awareness and understanding of the issues involved.
We believe this constitutes a fair use of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.
In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those
who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

For more information please visit: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond fair use,
you must obtain permission directly from the copyright owner.




NewLifeGames.com Web-Site is optimized for use with Fire-Fox and a minimum screen resolution of 1600 x 900 pixels.