Bally 891-20 Super Continental - Credit Play Not Working [resolved]

[essmeier]

I have, for the time being, pulled the plug on this project.  I've rewired the game to play with coins, and it's working in that regard.

I have the Replay Register installed, and if I wire the game for reply mode, with credits on the counter, the Replay Register will correctly count down and allow play when the button on the side of the cabinet is pressed.  That's good.

In replay mode, the machine will not add credits to the Replay Register after a win, though it will add credits to the register if I manually engage the Payout relay in the feature unit (shown on the schematic as "Payout relay (insert)")  In credit mode, after a win, nothing happens.  The machine just sits there.

That's the last remaining problem here.  In replay mode, the Payout relay isn't engaging after a win, which seems to be a necessary step to advance the Replay Register.

I've done all I can in the way of troubleshooting; I simply can't find anything else to investigate.  I'm sure I'm close; it's likely a single wire or switch or contact, though I can't rule out that it might be a wire, switch or contact that is missing from the machine, as this game has had a ton of post-factory work done on it.

Until someone comes along who understands this particular machine and schematic better than I do and who wants to help me with some step-by-step troubleshooting, I'm stuck.

[wolftalk]

fwiw, the 891-20 was a variant for the hacienda casino.  The schematic was w-1046-1622, which is going to be pretty obscure.


what the differences are between that schem and the generic bally -1 thru -6 models I don't know.  Which schem are you looking at?


I have a 929 with replay register and a couple 891 schems, so may be able to help once I find the paperwork.

[essmeier]

fwiw, the 891-20 was a variant for the hacienda casino.  The schematic was w-1046-1622, which is going to be pretty obscure.

Interesting.  How do you know this? 

I'm curious to know how it differed from any of the other variations.   I don't know that it was the payouts, as mine seems to have the same payouts as other versions of the game that I've seen.

Bally probably shipped a schematic with every machine, and the casinos likely kept one and threw all of the other ones out.

The schematic I have, and the only one I've been able to find, is the W-1046-2006.  That's for the 891-1 version, which seems to be the most common model of the machine.

I haven't found any major surprises using that schematic; what I'm finding in the machine is pretty much what the schematic says should be there, aside from one or two wires that aren't the color the schematic says they should be.

I'd be interested in anything you might have to offer in the way of either paperwork or assistance.

Meanwhile, I'm in the process of rebuilding, from scratch, the missing switches that allow the operator to change the game from coin play to credit play.  I was able to get most of the parts I needed from a pinball parts supplier.

I've also created DIY appropriately colored wires.  I haven't yet wired up the switches, as I have some molex connectors on order that should be here any day now.

All of this was removed from the machine, and somebody just tied all the wires necessary for coin play together to get it to work.

As I said before, I'm really close on this, and it's likely just a single connection/wire/switch that's preventing it from working properly in credit mode.  (Edit, 10 days later - No, I wasn't close - it was a dozen wires that were wired incorrectly.)

[wolftalk]

well, that was fun.  Just lost my entire post because an attachment was too big.  So here's the short version.


attached below is a pdf of bally model numbers and engineering drawings that is a snapshot in time.  The 891 goes up to -22, and your schem is not listed, so I assume it's for a model after that.


I put my entire w-1046-1025 schem on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/891/   


attached is the chunk relevant to replay register pay.  Since closing the "payout relay insert" works, you just need to get that relay to power when a win is detected.  Looks like it should always power even if in coin mode, and is driven directly from wire 93 on the payout counter disc.  However, see note on payout counter diagram attached ... I dunno what the "new style hopper" is.
 

[essmeier]

Thanks.  For some reason, I didn't get email notification that you'd replied.

That is a huge attachment; perhaps PNG wasn't the best format for that.  I'll convert it to something more user-friendly and upload it to the downloads section.

I'll also print out a copy, as I'm eager to see how it differs from the one that I have.

The other document that you provided has an interesting note - "Use #87 wire in place of #93 wire on all #847 & #891-1 with new style hopper."  My game has a 93 wire there, and I couldn't figure out why it's a 93 when the schematic I have says it should be an 87.  Glad to have that cleared up; I now know that it's of no importance.

Meanwhile, I've been rebuilding the switch stack, rigging up the wiring harness, and trying to prepare the machine to have all of that wiring put back in.

Attached is a photo of the assembled switch stack with the wiring harness.  It's attached to a piece of wood just to provide a work surface.

The harness has been tested and every connection passes a continuity test - each wire has continuity with the wire to which it's supposed to connect when the appropriate switch is closed.

Those molex connectors have a female end (not shown) that has bare wires coming out that will wire into the machine.  When it's time to install, I'll be able to mount all of it with just two screws and then I'll just have to connect the three plugs and I'm good to go.

But...

In getting ready to wire all of that up, I've had to locate all of the wires that need to connect to the wiring harness.  This is where the strange post-factory wiring comes into play, and over the weekend, I've finally figured out most of what they did and why they did it.

They took all 16 leaf switches out.  They cut all of the wires that were used only for credit play and simply tied them off.

For the wires that are necessary for coin play, they wired them together in two different ways:

• Tied the wires together with wire nuts
• Tied the wires together at the hopper beau plug (see diagram for example of that)

It's the second method that had me confused, as wires shouldn't change color at connectors, but on this machine, they do, unfortunately.

Over the weekend, I did something I should have done a long time ago.  I printed out two copies of the diagram on the schematic that shows the wire color for each pin of that beau plug.  (see image)

I labeled one "male" and one "female" and for each, I looked at the 30 pins on the connector, one by one, and wrote down the wire colors that were attached to that particular pin.

On the male side, 2 of the 30 pins had the wrong wire color.  Additionally, one pin on the male connector is missing, and as it happens, is necessary.

On the female side, 5 of the 30 pins had the wrong wire color and two pins had no wires at all, but every pin should have a wire.

The rewiring of the beau plug was an attempt to simply connect wires together that would normally have met at the switch stack that controls coin/credit play.

It took a while, but I finally sorted all of that out.   I also ordered a new male beau plug from KLAR that should be here in a couple of days.

I'll have to replace the male plug, and then I'll have to rewire both the male and the female connectors to the way they were from the factory.

Then I should be able to wire in the harness for the new switches.

In the process of all of this, I also discovered that I was confusing three different 91 wires, as there's a 91, a 91-2, and a 91-3.  I've labeled them and now know which one is supposed to go where.

I've attached a diagram that shows an example of how this thing was rewired at the beau plug.

This is an ugly project, but I've largely sorted out the problems.  It might even work after I'm done wiring this stuff up.

[essmeier]

@wolftalk
Got looking at that schematic (w-1046-1025d) that you uploaded recently.  I initially dismissed it, as a chunk of it was cut away and there was lots of custom wiring added by pen to the document.

But I took another look at it later and discovered that it's quite different from the (w-1046-2006) schematic that I've been using.  That one seems to be the most common version that's floating around, but it doesn't correspond to any model of the 891 listed on your Bally EM Slot Drawing Index document. 

Perhaps it's for a prototype.

The (w-1046-1025d) schematic seems to be more accurate and more closely matches the wiring I have in my own machine. 

There are numerous differences between the two, but I'll attach an image that shows section C-15 of that schematic and how they differ.   The wiring in that area had me scratching my head, and now I know why.  The version you uploaded clarifies what I was actually seeing in my own machine.

I spent some time cleaning up that schematic yesterday, removing the hand-added custom wiring, adding in the number line at the bottom and adjusting some contrast issues.

I don't currently have access to the downloads area, but I'll just upload it here.  For anyone with an 891 with a later manufacturing date, this is probably a better schematic.

I'll add it to the downloads section later.

[essmeier]

Thought I had everything sorted out regarding the wiring at that hopper beau plug, with one notable exception.
I had a 23 wire at the hopper that met a 40 wire at the plug inside the cabinet, but the old schematic I was using made no mention at all of a 40 wire. Didn't know if it was important or not, but I decided that I should try to track it down.
 
The old schematic showed that 23 wire as a 23-6, but I couldn't find anything on that schematic for that color wire that should be anywhere near the hopper.
 
I noticed that the new schematic showed that wire on the beau plug as a 23-3, rather than a 23-6.

I looked at the new schematic and found it. It's part of a complete circuit that's present in my machine but is not noted at all on the old schematic - a circuit for the hopper override solenoid.

That circuit includes an additional switch that has to be closed for coin play. My old schematic showed 8 switches for credit play and 8 switches for coin play and I built that and wired it up.

Turns out that it's 8 switches for credit play and nine switches for coin play.
 
Oh. That's kind of a big deal. I need to add a switch.

I never would have sorted that out without the newer schematic.  Another thank you to Wolftalk for that.


See attached.

 

[wolftalk]

whether you actually need the switch is debatable....all it does is stop the over-ride solenoid from being powered during payout in credit play. 


since the 891-2 model will pay the maximum 1500 payout in coin and has an over-ride solenoid, the over-ride solenoid must be capable of being held powered for that long without burning up. 


there's already another switch that prevents the hopper from powering in credit mode, so no danger of coins coming out even if the over-ride is powered in credit mode.


the missing chunk on the bottom-left corner of the schem I assume is the plug chart for the upper insert beau plugs.  I don't have a schem with that info, tho I do have a schem for an 891-14 that has part of it.  Unfortunately, the paper corner was folded when the copy I have was made so I can't read all the wire id's.  If your -2006 schem has a 24 and 22 pin plug down there, I'd like to see it.  Actually, I'd like to see the -2006 schem anyway :-)


the -2006 schem was likely for a 891 model that is later than the list I have.  I don't have the complete master list from bally, I have a copy of it that was taken at some point in time.  Bally continued to add to the list as machines were ordered in later years, so more model variants exist.


anyway, since you have an 891-20, there MAY be some differences from the 891-2 schem.   If you run across wiring on your game that is not on the -1025 schem, yell and I'll dig up other schems and see what's on them.


for example, I have a -1584 schem that uses molex plugs for everything except the reels and hopper.  It's not in the listing and it's pretty hard to read.  The game is described as 3333-891-1 on the schem.

[essmeier]

I'm not sure I need that switch, but it was important that I find out where those wires go, as they're hard-wired at the beau plug.  As I'm rebuilding the entire switch stack, due to mine having been removed, it's best that my wiring be as accurate as I can manage.

I also want to eliminate all instances of wires changing color at the beau plug.

I haven't installed the switches yet, as I'm still hunting down wires and I have to install a new male beau plug on the hopper, as mine is missing a pin.  So it wasn't a big deal to add another switch.  I had the parts lying around and I've got lots of wire.

That's done.  I'll put in that new beau plug today, and then I can rewire the female end so that wires going into both ends of the plug match in color.

Then all put the switch stack into the machine and wire it up.  If it works, great.  If not, I'll know I'm just a little bit closer and that I've got wiring anomalies out of the way.  Troubleshooting is easier when you know you're not having to work around third-party surgery.

There are copies of the -2006 schematic listed here on the forum, but they've got issues.  I'll attach a cleaned-up version here.

The -20, for what it's worth, has a ton of molex connectors.   I've got one to match every connector shown on the -2006 schematic.   I saw that the -1025 schematic didn't show as many, but I thought that was a document issue.  It never occurred to me that the machine just might not have as many connectors on it.

And one more thing - I've got a piece of documentation for the odds unit lying around here somewhere that mentions a -27 variation, so I know they went at least hat high.

[wolftalk]

the -1584 schem is a lot closer to the -2006 one.  The main difference is the -1584 still has an override solenoid, so it uses the "old style hopper" and has the associated wire 93 circuit differences.


I scanned the -1584 schem and stuck it on http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/891/  ... and yeah, it's png and 55MB.  I'm assuming you'll further process it so compression artifacts at this stage aren't helpful.  I cleaned it up a little and it's not as good as running it thru a large format scanner, but it'll do.


if your game has pretty much the same molex plugs as the -2002 schem, then the -1584 may be the closest to what you have.  I didn't compare it to the -1025 schem, so don't know what's different besides the plugs.

attached is the plug info from the -14 schem...but it's not relevant if you have molex to the upper insert

[essmeier]

Curious to see the -1584 version, which is not listed on your version documentation.  It might be an even better fit than the -1025, though that one is pretty close, aside from the molex connectors.

Unfortunately, I'm getting a 503 error when I try to download.

The bingo site is up, but the download page....not working.  (Edit:  Working now.  Got it.  Thanks!)

Meanwhile- I added the ninth switch to the switch stack and installed the switches in the cabinet. (see photo)

The harness for the switches has 29 unique wires.  I made a list of them and then I went to the cabinet and looked for each wire, one by one.  Each wire should have either been connected to another wire that was also on the list, or sitting there by itself doing nothing.

Found all 29.  Not 28 or 30.  I had exactly 29 wires there, and all have a color-matched mate on the harness.

That's good.  I then tied each of the wires to its mate with a wire nut.  I'll solder or use butt splices later if I get it all working.

Left to do:

1. Put the mounting bracket back on the female beau plug.
2. Screw it down.
3. Put the shelf back in the cabinet.
4. Put the reels and hopper back in and see if it works.

Ordinarily, I don't like to change too many things at once.  Makes troubleshooting easier.

In this case, unfortunately, I have done a bit more.  Since the machine was last working, I have:

1. Replaced a male beau plug on the hopper.
2. Changed the location of two wires on that plug.
3. Installed 17 switches, with 29 wires and three 12-pin molex connectors.
4. Rewired 4-5 wires on the female portion of the beau plug in the cabinet.
5. Wired up 29 wires with wire nuts.

What could possibly go wrong?  I'll find out later today.

[essmeier]

Wired it up, fired it up, and ...
...it works.   

It works in coin mode.  I put in a coin, hit a winning combination, and it dumps out coins.

I put it in credit mode, punched off six credits, manually set it to four oranges, and the bell rang and it added 120 credits to the Credit Register.

Wow.  I did not see that coming.

Still have some minor adjustments to make on the newly-added switches.  Need to replace the lock for that switch, as I don't have a key for it.  Right now, I'm changing it from credit to coin play by taking the cam apart with a wrench, moving it, and tightening it back again.

A new lock will fix that.

I bought this thing assuming that all I needed to do was add a Credit Register and wire it up.  Turned out to be 100 times more complicated than that.   I probably wouldn't have bought it if I knew it would take this much work to fix it.  Still, it turned out to be a good learning experience.

Things that I learned:

1. A schematic is not necessarily a schematic, especially on a machine with at least 28 known model variations.
2. I did not need to replace the Count Unit, as it doesn't do anything with the Jackpot Lockup relay removed and isn't required for either coin or credit play.
3. The part of the schematic that shows you the wire colors at the molex connectors is sometimes really important.
4. Lots of electromechanical slot machines seem to have had extensive third-party modification.
5. Lots of Bally Super Continentals seem to have had credit play intentionally disabled.

I'm guessing that the Credit Register just tends to wear out over time and casinos eventually decided they weren't worth replacing.  I remember playing Super Continentals back in the early to mid 1980s and I don't remember ever seeing one with a credit counter, yet as far as I know, they all shipped with one.

Thanks to all for the help, especially Wolftalk for providing better documentation. 

All good now.

Charlie

[wolftalk]

nice job.


if your existing lock is not an ace (round key) lock and you have a key that fits, take out the cylinder, stick in the key and yank or grind down any of the pins that are sitting up too high.


if getting another lock, make sure it can turn 180 degrees (comes with a 180 degree stop plate).


btw, what were you using to clean up the schematics?  I usually use gimp, but most of my slot schematics are copies from blueprints so it's quite a bit of work fiddling with settings and filters to try and remove most of the background noise.  I'd like to get all the documentation on a web site for free access, but with the color scans at 150MB+ each, I probably need to make a pass at cutting down the sizes and that'll take a while as I don't have a batch process that always works.


btw, below is the missing section from the w-1046-1025 schem.  Same as the -14 game on a previous post? ... not even close.

[essmeier]

I use Photoshop.  It can be time-consuming, depending on the amount of cleanup.  I probably spent an hour on that -1025 schematic, mostly cleaning up the additional circuitry that had been added by hand and restoring the parts that had been scribbled out.


Regarding file sizes, if you can scan to a TIFF format, rather than PNG, you can easily get something that's easier to move around.  TIFF is non-lossy, but if you zip a TIFF file, it will compress to only 5-10% of the original size.

Yeah, need a couple of locks, and a new paycup, as mine is missing big chunks of plating.   I also need a new reel glass, as mine had major parts of it scraped away when they disabled credit play.

All in good time.  I'm out of town at the moment, but when I get home, I'll check out the missing section of the -1025 schematic.

[wolftalk]

I uploaded a new cleaned up -1025 schematic.  Help yourself.


I've found png compresses a little better than tiff+lossless compression, but in any case the issue is the background noise.  Too aggressive removal and you tend to lose faded areas - especially wire IDs.


I may wind up with a batch process that gets the originals pretty small - greyscale and possibly lossy - then have a link to a much larger color lossless image in case details got lost.

[essmeier]

That one looks terrific.  I'm converting it to a PDF now. 

Well done.