Bally 891-20 Super Continental - Credit Play Not Working [resolved]

[essmeier]

Edit:  It took nearly two months, but I found a Credit Register, installed it, and got it to correctly increment the register after a win.  All it took was building 17 switches and completely rewiring everything near the hopper.  More here.

After looking for one for years, I found an affordable Bally 891.The unit accepts coins and pays out correctly.  Good news!

Bad news:

The unit is designed for either coin or credit play, but the entire credit unit has been removed from the machine.  Someone just cut the wires, taped them off, and pulled the entire unit out.  Then they blacked out the window on the payout glass where the counter was supposed to be and got on with their day.

Good news:

I have acquired a counter unit.  Turns out that it's the same unit that Bally used in their pinball bingo machines.  They also used it in a few arcade games.  While I thought it might take months to find one, I opened a post in a pinball forum and discovered that the world's biggest supplier of Bally bingo parts lives 30 minutes away.  I had a fully refurbished one in hand within 24 hours.  I'm hoping that this was the hard part.
Now I just need to wire it up...

The Questions

1. I don't know what switches this unit is supposed to have.  As used in the bingo games, there are two make-break switches on the backside of the unit, one on each side.  From the only photo I've been able to find on this forum that showed a credit unit on an 891, it looks like the switch arrangement as used in the slot machine is different.  The photo was taken at an awkward angle, so I can't quite make out what's what.

I've attached a photo of the backside of the new counter, showing the switches that are currently there.

I'd appreciate it if someone who owns an 891 with a properly installed credit unit could provide some good quality photos of the switches on the back of their credit unit so I can see what's required.   I've got parts, so I can add/remove/modify the switches as needed.

Plus, while I have a schematic, seeing which wires go where would be helpful.   

So, can anyone provide some good photos of the back side of their credit unit?

2.Edit:  I was trying to figure out how the counter was identified on the schematic and thought it was "payout counter."  Found it; it's called "register."

3. Is there a manual for this machine?  I didn't see one in the download area.

There are some other minor issues with this machine, but I'll save those for another thread.

Thanks,
Charlie

[GOS]

not trying to damper your spirits but I believe the units are different - does the one you have 3 digits- i believe the 891 has 4 plus the reset and stepup switches are different - maybe someone has a picture of the 891

[essmeier]

I have a four-digit counter unit.

I mentioned in the original post that the switches are probably wrong - that's why I need the photos.
Modifying the switches is not a big deal; I have a box full of electromechanical switch parts. 

This 891 can be repaired.  Just need photos of the counter from an 891 owner so I can make sure the switches are correct.

Charlie

[63mini]

 I have an upper unit from a scrapped 891-1. Below are some photos. Let me know if this is what you are looking for. If so, I can get you closer photos of the areas you may need.

[essmeier]

That's the general idea as to what I need.
The first and third images are helpful; they'll show how to build the switches.  Looks like the switch on the left is OK as-is, but I'll need to modify the one on the right.
Can you provide higher-resolution versions of those images via email, PM or some other means?  I know the forum doesn't permit posting high-res images.
Images showing which wires go to which contacts on the switches (and the coils) would be helpful, if it's not too much trouble.
I can likely sort this all out via the schematic once I have the switches assembled correctly, but photos showing which wires go where make the job easier and help prevent mistakes.

Thanks!

[63mini]

 Shoot me a PM with your email address and I will get you the photos.

[essmeier]

Here's an update:
Thanks to user 63mini, I figured out how to wire up the counter.  On this machine, there's a make-break switch on the left side, and a single switch on the right side that is normally open at zero.
The schematic that I have and the wires that were available at the credit unit were in agreement on that, so it just took a few minutes to wire it up.
But...
I don't have the credit counter working yet.
After installing, and before powering the game up, I put 25 credits on the counter.   I turned the game on, and the credits reset to zero.  I'd expect that behavior.  On most Bally games with 3 or 4 digit replay counters, cycling the power acts as a "knock off" switch that removes all credits.

EDIT:  That didn't happen here.  The credits counted off because the Jackpot Release Key switch was closed.

Other than that, however, I can't do anything to get the credit counter to advance.  The machine pays out in coins regardless of the position of the key switch that toggles between coin and credit play. 

If, with the machine powered on, I add credits to the counter, it instantly resets to zero.
I do have a couple of other disconnected wires in this game, though they're some distance from the counter.  I need to check the wires that connect to the "register advance" coil to make sure they're actually going somewhere.  I'll see if I can figure out where the other ones go.

I've also got some disagreement between what the schematic is telling me about the Replay Key Switch and what I'm actually seeing in the game.  The schematic is referencing more wires to that switch than I actually have, and it doesn't look as though any have been removed.  Could be they just changed some of the circuitry at some point.

I may need a proper 891-20 schematic before I can sort all of this out.  The only one I've been able to find is for the 891-1.

Does anyone have any suggestions where I might find a Bally Super Continental 891-20 schematic?

So, wired up, but not yet working.

[essmeier]

This project may be dead.  I think my feature unit board has had the count unit removed.  I know that not all versions of the 891 had a count unit, but I think all later versions of the game (891-4 and later) had one.

This particular 891-20 does not have one, but there are some cut wires in the vicinity of where the counter unit would have been mounted.  I suspect the count unit told the credit register how many times to increment after a win.  I don't have a parts list or schematic for the 891-20, so I'm only guessing as to what that unit does.

I think it pretty unlikely that I'm going to find anyone with a complete count unit to sell.  I'd be more likely to find someone with a complete feature unit board that I could just swap out.

Otherwise, I'm out of ideas.  The game works correctly for all payouts with coins, but I don't see how I'm going to get the credit register working unless I can find a complete count unit or a full feature unit board.  Where will I find the EM slot machine graveyard that might have a feature unit board?

Attached: Example photo of a machine with a count unit as well as photos of my own.

EDIT:  User 63mini has a Count Unit, so this project is back on track.

[ricker]

Hey,
.
I hate when the memory goes.  Here goes.  The 891-1 was a coin/credit machine. The 891-2 was a coin/credit or coin only machine. There is a key switch located below the handle, One way for coin/credit and the other way for coin only.  I do not know about the other 891 models.


A pic of your feature/payout glass might help to compare with other members who may have an 891-?


Richard

[essmeier]

Thanks to another member here, I have a service manual that covers models 891-0 through 891-4.

What I know:

891 - Credits only; the game does not pay out in coins, ever.  There's no payout tray.
891-1 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine locks up for hand pay at 400 coins regardless of mode.  Counter never used in coin mode.
891-2 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds all wins to counter without lockup even in coin mode; player can then cash out or play credits.  Game pays out completely, right up to the 1500 coin limit (or hopper capacity.)
891-3 - Operator option for coin or credit; machine adds wins up to 300 to the counter even in coin mode.  Customer can choose payout or play credits.  Machine locks up for hand pay on wins of 400 or more.
891-4 - Unit for Sweden that handled tokens or Kroner

Document outlining above in detail attached for those who might care.

There are other variations of the game between 891-4 and the 891-20 and I now know of variations as high as 891-23.  The manual didn't cover those, so .... ?


Still need an 891-20 schematic....

[ricker]

I think the numbers above 4 were for special multi-unit orders from the buyer(casino). Higher or lower payout %, custom symbols on reels, etc.?,  I would think there is not a separate schematic for the models above 4, but maybe. The number of each symbol on each reel of yours , to compare with other members who have an 891 would confirm a different payout%, and you can figure out your machines payback % too.

[essmeier]

This project becomes simultaneously uglier and more interesting by the day.

OK, thanks to Ed (63mini), I have a Count Unit and it's been installed.  Can I play credits now?

Of course not. 

I bought this game sight unseen and was assured that it worked and paid out correctly (it does) and that the only part missing was the Replay Register (alas, not true.)

The machine has also had the Jackpot Lockup relay and the Jackpot Meter relay removed.  That seems to have been done to circumvent the 200 coin maximum payout restriction on larger (>400 coins) jackpots.
I manually set the reels for a 1000 coin payout and it spit 1000 nickels at me.

I can live with that.

But...

Both sets of switches that attach to the key that controls credit or coin play have been removed.  The wires are still there, but the switches are gone and the game appears to have been hard-wired for coin play.

I can, I suppose, undo that and hard-wire it for credit play, but I'd like to do this properly, given that I'm already pretty deep in this project.

I'll try to rebuild the switches, but it would help to have photos.

So...

Could someone with a complete 891 with a credit counter please post or send some good photos of their Replay Key Switch switches?

[essmeier]

Further update:

User Badbaud is checking to see if he might have a switch stack from a junked machine.

In the meantime, I discovered that I was misreading the schematic.

I saw a switch labeled "Replay Key Switch" mentioned 8 times on the schematic, and all 8 switches were shown as normally open.

I assumed that four of those switches must need to close for coin play and four must need to close for credit play, but I had no idea which ones were which.

I was wrong about all of that; all 8 of those switches have to be closed for credit play.

For coin play, all 8 switches labeled "Payout Key Switch" have to be closed.  I was ignoring those, because I thought "Payout Switch" was referring to the switch that I now know is the Jackpot Release Key switch.

So close 8 Replay Key switches and you should have credit play.  Close 8 Payout Key switches and you have coin play.

IMO, "Payout Key Switch" should have been labeled "Coin Play Switch."

Now that I know this, I realize why I was seeing wires tied together that didn't seem to make sense.

Yesterday, I disconnected the wires that were hard wired for coin play and twisted together the wires that should connect for credit play.

Results?   Nothing happens with a winning combination.  No coins, and no credits.

Could have been worse; I could have powered it up and blown fuses or found that nothing works at all.

Not the case here.  The machine lights up, I can add up to 6 coins and it accepts them, and then I pull the handle and the reels spin and stop as they should.

But I get no credits for a win.  If I manually add credits to the counter, I cannot play them by pressing the credit button.  Nothing happens there, either.

If I reset the Jackpot Release Key, the credit counter will count down to zero.  So part of the Replay Register has power and seems to work.

Gotta do more troubleshooting on the Feature Unit, I suppose.

[essmeier]

Further update, and a bit of progress:

It appears that I've largely wired everything correctly, but I'm not quite there.

The game does not award credits after a winning combination.  But if I manually engage the Payout relay, the Replay Register will increment as it's supposed to.

If I have credits on the Replay Register, pressing the button on the side of the cabinet does not allow me to play credits.  Nothing happens.  But if I manually engage the Replay relay, the counter will decrement as it's supposed to and the handle correctly releases so that I can play.

If there are credits on the game, closing the Jackpot Release switch does cause the Replay Register to reset to zero.  At least one feature of the Replay Register is working correctly.

At this point, there are two remaining problems:

1. With credits on the register, pressing the button to play them doesn't work because the Replay relay isn't engaging. 
2. With a winning combination, no credits are added to the credit register because the Payout relay isn't engaging.

I'll add a copy of the schematic (for the 891-1) here.  It's the same one that's been floating around on this site, but I've cleaned it up a bit and restored the navigation indices that were cropped off in the original document.

I've run out of ideas as to what to test or check next.   Help or suggestions would be welcome.

[mark the spark]

when you press the button does the odds motor run ?
it should run when you press the button

[essmeier]

No, it does not, though yes, it should.

I've checked continuity through the circuit, except for the item marked "micro switch."  I don't know where that switch is located.

I suppose I could try using jumpers to bypass parts of that path, one at a time, to see if I can locate the trouble spot.

Attached: Portion of schematic showing path for replay button.

[mark the spark]

not sure but is it the micro on the back of the hopper payout board ?

[essmeier]

Micro switch location turns out to be irrelevant.

I have solved remaining problem #1:

1. With credits on the register, pressing the button to play them doesn't work because the Replay relay isn't engaging. 

There is an 81 (black/red) wire running from the replay button, through a Jones plug, to a switch on the Replay Register that is normally open at 0.

I wasn't getting continuity on that wire between the button and the switch.  I put a jumper on the blade of the button where the 81 wire attaches and the other end of the jumper on the blade of the switch on the Replay Register where the other end of the 81 wire attaches.

I had also inadvertently soldered two wires incorrectly on the make/break switch on the Replay Register.  I swear I'd checked that a dozen times, and I still got it wrong.

I put some credits on the meter, pressed the button, and the odds motor turned, the counter stepped down, and the handle released for play.

Turned out to be dirty connectors on the Jones plug.  I'd already cleaned them.  I cleaned them again.  Now that feature works.


Huge win here. 



Last remaining problem is still a big one and cleaning the Jones plugs didn't fix it - Wins are not getting added to the credit counter.  I'm sure, as with the problem I've just solved, that it's something really simple.  Finding it?  Not so much.

[essmeier]

The back and forth nature of this sort of troubleshooting drives me nuts.

Seeing as though I'd had problems with a dirty Jones plug, I decided to clean all of my connectors.

Took out the reel unit, cleaned the pins on the beau plugs and cleaned the switches.

Took out the hopper, cleaned the pins on the beau plug and cleaned the switches.

Didn't do anything else.

Now nothing works.  I put in a coin, the coin relay engages, the "coin accepted" light comes on, and the Odds unit resets.  The handle does not release.  Pressing the replay button with credits on the counter does nothing. 


Hitting the coin switch after that simply causes the Odds unit to attempt to reset again.

Nothing else happens.  I have no idea what I've done here.  The last thing I worked on before this problem occurred was the hopper, but I've looked at it several times since and can't find anything out of place or out of adjustment.

EDIT (a day later): Nothing is more fun than working electromechanical games. 

According to the schematic, most of the signal path to get the handle to release is on the reel mechanism.  So I pulled the reel mechanism out and checked continuity on an A-1 switch, two switches at C-3, two switches on the Coin relay, and the micro switch mounted next to A1.

Of course, everything checked out.  I adjusted nothing.

Since I had the reel mechanism out, I decided to clean the beau plugs yet again.  I also checked two switches on the Handle Release relay, and they checked out as good, too.

Not having anything left to check out, I put the reels back in the machine and powered it up.

And just like that, it's working again.  It's accepting coins and playing off credits.  What was the problem?  Dirty connector on the beau plug that I'd cleaned yesterday?  Perhaps.  I'll never know.

Back to trying to figure out why a winning combination won't trigger the Payout relay, so wins are not added to the Replay Register.  I'm 99% done with this, but...

[essmeier]

Can anyone tell me what color wire should be at point "B" in the attached schematic section?

I've been checking and rechecking my wiring on this, and just realized that the schematic suggests that there should be two wires meeting 43-4 at the Replay Key Switch.

Edit:  Sorted this out.  It's a jumper on the stepper, and it's connected and working properly.