Medalist reel nr 1 kicks in immediately

[DavidBelg]

Hello Guys


My medalist reel nr 1 kicks in almost immediately when I pull the handle.


If also does this even when the clock is stopped (by hand) by me.


I does it almost everytime on a slow handle pull.
I does it less when pulling the handle fast.

Here is a video to demonstrate the problem.

I looked and cleaned and oiled everything in the mech.  I even changed springs from reel 1 to nr 2 but no effective solution.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enfO3gAgUbA


What could be my problem?

[wolftalk]

grab the 7150 manual from http://bingo.cdyn.com/slots/bally_manuals/ .  The 2600 manual has similar info starting at page 27.


if you can figure out what it's talking about, that will help a lot.  It sounds like your latch pawl for reel 1 isn't engaging in the toggle link ... that should make as much sense as the 7150 manual :-)

in the pic below is shown:
- the latch pawl  (green arrow)
- the toggle link sitting in the latch pawl notch (red arrow)
- timer link that retracts the latch pawl (purple arrow)

if the stop bracket isn't in the right place, the kick may happen too early and the toggle link may not be latched yet, so check that per the setting in the manual.


mechanically, what the mechanism is doing while you pull the handle down is:
1] rotate the reel index arms back out of the reels
2] at some point, each reel toggle link will fall into a notch on a latch pawl.  Once the kick happens, the link resting in the notch holds the reel index arm away from the reels so they can spin freely
3] as the clock fan spins, the latch pawls are sequentially retracted by the timer link.  When one moves far enough to disengage the notch, the reel index arm yanks into the reel and stops it.


note if you move the stop bracket too far, the kick won't happen and the handle will be stuck down.  Search the site for pics on how to deal with that.

[DavidBelg]

Hello hello and thank you for the detailed info!


I removed the reel assy, and reels and tested the latching of reel 1 (vs reel 2, reel 3).
The thing is that the mech can latch perfectly, perhaps a little more sensitive then the others but it works and everything moves freely.

If I then push the bar from the front (coming from the clock bar) it releases the reel index.


So I think it's a question of 'travel' in how far the reel indexing arms are pushed up to be latched or how far the latch push bar (from the clock) is pushed backwards.
sometimes reel no 2 would have this not laching behaviour too

Is there any procedure on how to adjust this a little bit further?
Should I do it for all the whole mech in general or just for reel 1?


Sorry for asking and I'm fully aware this has been discussed a lot but for me it's new.
I understand a lot already (for example adjusting the hopper is now easy for me) but every aspect in this has to be learned ...




EDIT: I read about the stop bracket and will make a small adjustment and see if this solves my problem.

[wolftalk]

the stop bracket determines when rotating shafts and retracting the reel arms turns into the kick off.


if the reel index arm is barely pulling back enough to engage in the latch pawl, then moving the stop bracket a little forward should allow the reel arms to pull back further and clear the ledge on the latch pawl more.


move the stop bracket too far forward and the handle will bottom out before the kick off.  You can reach in and move the "trip operating lever" (the part that hits the stop) to trip the mechanism.


if the stop bracket is ok per the dimensions in the manual, you can also get your problem if the drive shaft is too long.  See page 30 in the 2600 manual and note the comment about the "essential drive shaft adjustment is proper engagement of the handle mech".   In other words, the drive shaft length affects the rest position of the front cogs, one of which has the peg that the u-shaped slot in the handle mech fits around. 


if the drive shaft is too long or short, you can't push the reel mech into the cabinet because the peg won't slide into the handle "U" easily.

[DavidBelg]

Tx Wolftalk for your help and patience.

Ok I understand more and have been trying for 2 hours today but no solution yet.


The reels slide in good and the right pin of the reel assy fits in the U shaped part good.
I tried subtle adjustments shifting the two nuts more further at the end of the shaft but no big change.
I then tried to adjust the stop bracket (a lot) and found the max spot that the stop bracket could be moved to the front with proper tripping.   Too far back and 3 to 4 reel indexes would not latch.
Too far front and the whole mech would not trigger. 
So I found a stop bracket position with max movement and with proper triggering, but still the reel index 1 triggers immediately.


I then tried this:
- changed springs from reel 1 to reel 4: no change
- added more springs to reel 1. I thought it would make the latch harder this way but it didn't
- tried a softer spring on reel 1 but then it would sometimes not index at all and keep spinning
- checked that the latch arm certainly moves freely and even cleaned it on the resting position of the latch so it was less oily (though hard to see that part)
- clock was a little loose from the main assy so tightening the screws gave less movement on the indexing trigger shaft
- I then - as a test - moved the 'arms' between reel 1 and 2 that go from the front of the assy (index trigger shaft connected to clock) to the latch part at the back.  I know that these have different lengths but I wanted to see the result.
  Now all 5 indexes latched all the time but of course reel 2 indexed first then reel 1 then reel 3 then reel 4, and finally 5.    I switched them back.


I noticed the pump part is not sitting against the bracket in rest position but is 3 mm away from it.
I noticed the first reel being a lit more sensitive on the latch part when manually testing and comparing to its neighbors.


The only thing I can conclude with my knowledge is that maybe I have a worn part? Or my indexing triggering arm from front to back for reel 1 is a tiny bit too long?




Any other help tips, things I forget too check .... would be greatly appreciated!

[DavidLee]

Reel one mechanism accumulates more grease and grime due to the lack of accessibility.Cleaning solution, lubrication, clean and lubricate again all moving parts in the assembly. Especially the latch pawl area.


Also check the clock fan relationship to the shaft it’s riding on. As in not loose and/or free wheeling.
A fast clock will cause premature tripping.

[wolftalk]

if david's stuff check out, fwiw, my pump and some of the pins/holes connecting things has some slop, so 3mm shouldn't matter.


added a couple more arrows to the below pic.  You should be able to slide the reel mech out about halfway so you can access the bits below the reels.  Then"


1] push and hold the timer link (really purple arrow) towards the front of mech.  That'll let the latch pawl (green arrow) rest against the toggle link (red arrow).
2] push the index arm at the yellow arrow towards the front.  Eventually the toggle link should slide up above the notch.
3] let go of the index arm and it should engage the notch and stay pulled away from the reels


at this point, try wiggling the index arm and latch pawl a little.  If the toggle link pops out of the notch, then you could have wear on the notch or the toggle link.


4] if the index arm is staying latched, you can move the timer link toward the back and it should disengage the pawl and allow the index arm to drop into the reel.


if all that's working reliably, then sounds like the issue is getting the mechanism do what you just did.  I'd probably pull the reels out, stick the mech back in the cabinet and use the handle to see what the pieces are doing.


the linkage that causes the timer links to slide forward is on the clock side and has a variator cog in it.  Probably worth watching and checking for wear.  iir, the idea is the variator cog changes the linkage length, and the longer the linage the faster the reels latch because the timer links slide forward less.   If that linkage is too long, then reel 1 timer link may not move forward enough to allow the latch pawl to engage.  You'd want to make the linkage a little shorter by having it move back faster.  Moving the nuts may remove some of the lash in the assembly and move the linkage faster.


I'll look tomorrow and see if there's any other adjustments.  Afaik, everything is pinned together on the shafts and only the stop bracket and drive arm is adjustable. 

[GOS]

check the clock gears - you may have a broken tooth on one of the gears -

[DavidBelg]

Today, I operated the reel assy today without the reels.

It seems that they latch every time (I can see a little jump on the latch assy arm) when that happens.

When I move at the left side the timer adjustment manually before kicking (the variator cog with gears that are advanced when the timer shaft turns each time) to the 'closest' position so indexing shaft is pushed less far the tripping always happens.
If I position the variator it to the most far position (indexing shaft starts further) it always locks without issues and then indexes when it should.

I see now way to adjust this assy or shaft unfortunately or am I missing something


The clock is fast but even when holding it by hand this happens.
On visual inspection I do not have a broken tooth on the clock gear.


Here's a video demonstrating most of the assy and problem without the reels


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YZBvMbEY94


Thank you again

[wolftalk]

see pic of my 929 below.  Mine has the three middle links fixed length, but I guess it doesn't matter as long as they go longest on reel 1 to shortest on reel 5.   Your game has the variator cog on reel 3 since a 1 coin game plays as a 3 reel game, so reel 3 needs the variable timing.

assuming you are good there and since making the clock link short makes it work (timing links start sliding sooner), then the issue would be the timer links aren't sliding forward (towards front of game) far enough to latch reel arm 1 reliably.


that sends you back over to the right side of the mech.  In the second pic below, the red arrow points to the gap between trip operating lever pawl (O) and trip shaft assembly (N).


in order to start sliding the timer links, both the play in the drive shaft (F) and the gap need to be gone.  Once the pawl (O) hits the (N) piece, the reel arms start retracting and the timer links start sliding once the clock link moves far enough (where "far enough" is variable due to the variator cog on that link).


the retract/slide keeps going until the pawl (O) rotates off the (N) piece after it hits the stop bracket (J).


so, the timer links won't slide far enough if:


1] the stop bracket is too far to the right.  Pawl releases (N) early.  Move stop bracket left a little.  Move too far and the handle bottoms out before the pawl releases and you're stuck with handle down.
2] red arrow gap is too big.  Adjust (E) nut counter-clockwise to make it smaller
3] the 1/16" drive shaft play is too big.  Adjust nut (green arrow) to make it smaller

in other words, you want the (N) shaft to start turning quickly as the handle is pulled down.  The more "slack" in the handle pull, the less potential sliding of the timer links.

the gotcha with all this is moving the (E) nut changes the height of the peg (orange arrow) that engages the handle fork.   Turning (E) nut counter-clockwise raises the peg.  Just need to make sure the peg still slides into the fork when putting the mech back in the cabinet.


guess I'd make sure the free play is 1/16" first with the green arrow nut, then adjust the E nut to make the pawl gap smaller.


if you've got that as good as you can and still having trouble, may be worth measuring the lengths of the timer links

[DavidLee]

Nice video to get a better view/understanding of the machine.
I noticed a couple of things to check out before making adjustments.
First these machines are built like tanks. Speaking mechanically, if it’s not broken, worn out or been maladjusted it might just need to be cleaned.
In the attached photos are a couple of areas to investigate for cleaning and adjustment.

[DavidBelg]

Another 2 hours of adjusting/testing.... still no solution.


I adjusted the right side as per manual and the way you instructed Wolftalk.  A lot I have learned today
I could net get the situation in which the pump arm rests to the bracket AND the trip pawl (O) rests against (N) and the height of (A) is 1 11/16".
I made some compromises to get the best situation so I decided to rest with the pup arm and have my main gear for the machines arm at the correct height.  SO the red arrow between (O) and (N) is 1/4 inch at minimum.


@DavidLee
The shaft that runs trough all the latch pawls can be turned free by hand, not 'spun'.


The linkage for reel 1 from front to back to release the latch (from timing shaft) doesn't have wholes.  So I cannot adjust it to try another length.
When I switched the one from slot 1 to slot 2 in a prevous test reel 1 always latched.


Maybe I should test this path a bit further.



How do I know if this has the original part?   Maybe somebody replaced it with the wrong part in the past?  Spring wasn't original anymore on that reel when I got the machine.


I was already thinking of adjusting it by increasing the travel that part has before it pushes against the latch release for reel 1.

[DavidLee]

Good thing about these machines, there’s lots of duplicate parts.
Compare reel 1 latch/kick assembly with reels 2 an 3.
Run the machine in the alternate slot if it works better, leave it that way.
In my limited experience the latch pawl and assembly need to be clean and well lubed.
If the latch pawl is a bit sticky the machine will malfunction either way.


Try this low tech test.
Carefully slow the clock down with a little pressure on the accessible gear.
Note any change in operation, latch or un-latching.


Also, check the index/wiper arm for movement.
Manually pull it back, it should spring back in one smooth motion.
This to can be compared with the others.

[DavidBelg]

Ok so cleaned, oiled, adjusted another 2 hours today....
Everything moves very fluid that should.


If I use the linkage arm from reel 2 on reel 1 (that is 1/4inch shorter) it locks in the latch pawl everytime, but then I would have my timing of on the whole assy for the sequence tripping reel 1 trough 5



I think I discovered something that resembles a broken gear.  I don't have a broken gear but I have some play between the clock and the timing shaft.
Can you verify if this is ok or not?


The arm that runs trough the cog variator is solid to the timing shaft.  You can see the shaft is moving a bit in the clock connection but not moving the connected gear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qhrebDqH04


I then took it apart but don't have much play at all with the pin in both assemblies when insertedl seperated?  Few to no play in the clock gear assy, and the same in the shaft..  But once connected, I have some play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMuxe0Hw3g


Now a final video showing the arm that connects to the cog variator and pushes the timing shaft.  When I am about to trip the whole mech, that arm is at it's max position.  But as soon as the mech trips, the timing link arm jumps back half an inch to an inch..  taking a lot of momentum from the timing shaft and moving the arms closer to the latch release pawl and premature tripping reel 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvty9WJX5rQ


Is this my problem?  And if yes, how could I solve this?

[DavidLee]

After you get the machine back to its normal state.
Try making a slight adjustment to the the trip lever stop bracket.
To far out can cause the reels to not spin. Usually its flush to the back of the chassis.
This adjustment needs to be very slight towards the front of the machine.
Its good to make a reference mark and or photo of its position prior to adjusting.

Also check the tension spring noted on the drawing. Sometimes it will get into a bind with the trip pawl.

See attachment 

[DavidBelg]

@DavidLee, that I have tried already a lot to adjust to a max situation.


Did you check my last 3 videos, isn't that the cause of the problem?

[DavidLee]

Yes, the timer lever roll pin might cause malfunctioning. As it pushes the timer idler lever.


Low tech test to compensate for the slack.


Use a shim between the levers at the 90° junction.


This would be where the excessive lubricant is in the photo

[wolftalk]

maybe time to eliminate the reel 1 timer link itself as a problem.


setup #1 - the timer link by the clock is adjusted as short as possible
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


in first the pic below, my mech is "wound up" three "clicks".  Not going to move it for the rest of this setup.


the second pic shows the gap between the stop bracket and trip operating lever pawl ... about 3mm.


from the center of the pin to the front edge of the slot in the timer link is about 135mm.  More importantly, the slot is pulled away from the pin in latch pawl so the latch pawl can rotate clockwise (green arrow points to gap).  The size of the gap varies via the clock link variator cog.


the reel wiper arms are retracted all the way back...can't push them any further.


I can reach in an pull the bottom of the wiper arm assembly that can still move (third pic), I can move it far enough forward for the latch pawl to click in and latch the reel wiper arm in place ... barely.  There's not much overtravel.


if you push the latch pawl peg (4th pic) back, the reel arm will unlatch.


relatch it and move on


setup 2 - the clock timer variator
-------------------------------------


spin the variator cog.  When the clock link is as long as possible, the reel 1 timer link slot gap will be gone.  If you try and pull the wiper arm assembly to latch the reel, it won't latch because the pawl can't rotate enough.


now the hard part ... wind up the mech more ... until the trip pawl is touching the stop bracket.  Then reach in and pull the bottom of the wiper arm and verify the latch pawl latches.  I usually wind up the reel more by squeezing the two big cogs, but you can push the cylinder bracket if you've got the mech someplace it won't slide.


setup 3 - ignore all the above and take a shortcut
-------------------------------------------------------


wind up the mech a few clicks until the trip pawl is near the stop bracket.  Use a clamp on the top edges of the two big wind-up gears and tighten the clamp so the trip pawl is touching the stop bracket.


verify the reel 1 wiper will latch when the clock timer link is longest.

[wolftalk]

if the reel 1 timer link itself is ok and reel 1 is always latching, then yeah, the slop in the parts may be biting you.


david's suggesting of sticking a spacer/washer at his blue arrow is good ... it effectively moves the timer link forward so there's more slot before the latch pawl pin is hit.



don't worry about the exact measurements on the adjustments in the manual, they are starting point.  The best you can do is adjust the stop bracket so the game kicks reliably when the handle is all the way down without having to jump up and down on the bottomed out handle to get the trip pawl to slide off.


in your video 1, my machine does not have the wear allowing the shaft to rotate in the clock gear collar.   If the clock gears aren't quickly slowing the timer links and the links jerk rearward to take up the lash, that would make reel 1 wipers unlatch faster.


options depend on what's worn:
1] replace the roll pin
2] worn shaft hole?  drill shaft and collar and put in a bigger roll pin or replace shaft.
3] worn bits in clock ... replace clock


other hacks:


4] disable the clock link variator cog mechanism and leave the link as short as possible
5] make the reel 1 timer link slot longer so it doesn't push the latch pawl as quickly
6] leave david's shim in place

[DavidBelg]

Thanks again for the dedicated help and long written replies.

I think my mech latches correctly (even when variator for timing is at its longest)


Problem is that when the stop bracket is hit the timing shaft immediately jumps back enough for the link to index reel 1.

Adding a shim I understand but I this will create a shorter time between index of reel 1 and reel 2 and they are already close together.
Making the link to the latch pawl shorter for reel 1 will create the same effect.

So I will double verify the latching on reel 1 but I think I will try to work in the direction of a complete longer timing for the whole mech by removing the slop.  This way I will keep my timing between reels correct.
First I will compare against my other machines some more and try to be inventive to find a good solution.  Can be as simple as adding a nail inside the roiler pin to 'expand' it or by adding something so the variator cog still functions but with limited travel.